Guest guest Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 I like your argument in this. let remind you of one that religion has fail but one thing is like the relationship between god and man. It is that man don't understand God's purpose for his life. this is not religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it is a symptom the problem is the broken relationship and moral dacay --- yamanjanl <yamanjanl@...> wrote: > Redefining Morality > > This Day (Lagos) > COLUMN > September 10, 2006 > Posted to the web September 11, 2006 > > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo > Lagos > > At the last International AIDS Conference in > Toronto, I was at a > session where the issue of us redefining morality > came up and the > views in that room were so diverse it would have > been comical if we > weren't talking serious life and death issue like > HIV infection and > human lives. > > At some point I almost got confused as I started > getting things mixed > up and had to ask myself some core questions like > does religion, > culture and morality mean the same thing? Are these > words > interchangeable and can they be substituted when its > convenient? I'm > aware that there is a lot of clash between religion > and culture and a > lot of people have been accused of throwing away > their cultural > values for religious dictates. In other places, some > religions are so > entrenched that the people's culture is totally > submerged and > sometimes you cant tell a person's religious > affiliation because the > culture of his/her people is totally immersed in a > particular > religion. > > Sounds like the only time religion and culture make > good bed fellow > is when morality is at stake and even then it is > based on partial > amnesia and selective viewing. It has been said over > and over again > that the only way to fight and address the growing > HIV epidemic in > our community is to wake up to the reality of our > times and meet > people where they are. I know I stand the chance of > being crucified > but I'm a strong believer in the theory that you > need to save a man's > life before you can save his soul. Dead men don't > serve God or do > their families any good except you believe in the > sprit of the dead > watching over the family. > > When I started doing developmental work, I had some > fixed ideas of > right and wrong and my thoughts were straight and > narrow but the more > I work and grow, I realize that you must meet people > where they are > if your ultimate aim is to make an impact on your > target audience not > just throw your beliefs at people and prove that you > have superior > knowledge or beliefs. We also can't scare people > into good behavior, > neither can bullying and brow beating achieve > sustainable impact. > > My religious and cultural beliefs are mine and the > only people I can > judge by those standards are those who profess my > same faith or have > the same culture. I am a true Nigerian who was born > into and bred in > the Yoruba culture, schooled and lived in the Hausa > setting and > married into the Igbo culture and I can tell you > that one man's meat > is another's poison. Our definition of right and > wrong, appropriate > and inappropriate are miles apart. It is easy to say > we are all > Nigerians or we all serve the same God be it as > Pentecostals, > Protestants, Catholics or Moslems but when the chips > are down and > things we consider important are at stake, we all > might as well be > from different planets with the only thing in common > being the color > of our skin. Even that comes in different tones and > shades. > > The new school of thought around HIV and morality is > that we need to > have a rethink around things like condom use, sexual > orientation and > sexual experiences. > > I have repeatedly said the old ABC model has failed > us. > > A = Abstain - if you are in marriage or a long term > relationship, > abstinence is almost impossible so that cuts out a > large percentage > of people old and young. > > You can preach abstinence till you're blue in the > face and dig up all > the arguments against sex before marriage but the > reality of today is > that too many people are having sex and will > continue to do so in and > out of wedlock or even under the locker! Let us > remember that not all > sexual encounters are consensual, neither is all sex > for pleasure or > procreation. > > B = Be Faithful - In an ideal world, this makes > perfect sense but > because I can only speak for myself, my partner's > faithfulness is > based on nothing but faith and trust. I refuse to be > held accountable > for somebody else's faithfulness. In our culture, > the women have > gotten a very bad deal because they stayed faithful > and their > partners didn't. If a woman has sex outside her > marriage then she is > a whore and the scum of the earth but if a man does > the same then we > ask: " what is missing at home? " , we want to know > what his wife isn't > doing right that makes him stray, as if she is the > cause of his > infidelity rather than the aggrieved party. > > C = Condom Use - I hear you, but tell me how many of > us can negotiate > condom use in marriage or steady relationships? The > advert says " if > you no fit hold bodi, abeg use condom " and that > means condoms are for > the perverts who no fit hold bodi. Socially we > haven't marketed > condom use well and that's because deep down we > don't believe in the > rubber but will permit it for the dregs who won't > abide. > > Now if we are to define immorality as sex before > marriage, who shall > stand? What percentage of our population (old and > young) will have > noses if every time you had sex outside of marriage > a pimple appeared > on your nose and stayed there even after you got > married and received > the license to do??? If there was a way of telling > if you stayed > unsexed till your wedding night, I can imagine a lot > of people will > be less vocal. I'm not making a case for or against > pre marital sex > but I strongly object to you making sweeping > statements about what > makes people moral or immoral. If you profess > Christianity or Islam, > you can and will be judged by the dictates of your > religion but you > can't extend that to those who aren't of your same > faith. If your > religion says you're permitted one wife, you can't > make sweeping > statements about polygamous people. If your culture > accepts polygamy, > you can't scorn polyandry. If my culture permits me > to have sex with > my husband's kin for the sake of procre ation, don't > tell me that is > wrong and the only way I'm permitted to have > children is by adoption. > If it is culturally appropriate that I give my most > valued 'possession', the dearest person to me to a > visiting friend > for the night to show him that all I have is his and > I will hold > nothing back from him, what business of yours is it? > Neither my self, > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 I like your argument in this. let remind you of one that religion has fail but one thing is like the relationship between god and man. It is that man don't understand God's purpose for his life. this is not religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it is a symptom the problem is the broken relationship and moral dacay --- yamanjanl <yamanjanl@...> wrote: > Redefining Morality > > This Day (Lagos) > COLUMN > September 10, 2006 > Posted to the web September 11, 2006 > > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo > Lagos > > At the last International AIDS Conference in > Toronto, I was at a > session where the issue of us redefining morality > came up and the > views in that room were so diverse it would have > been comical if we > weren't talking serious life and death issue like > HIV infection and > human lives. > > At some point I almost got confused as I started > getting things mixed > up and had to ask myself some core questions like > does religion, > culture and morality mean the same thing? Are these > words > interchangeable and can they be substituted when its > convenient? I'm > aware that there is a lot of clash between religion > and culture and a > lot of people have been accused of throwing away > their cultural > values for religious dictates. In other places, some > religions are so > entrenched that the people's culture is totally > submerged and > sometimes you cant tell a person's religious > affiliation because the > culture of his/her people is totally immersed in a > particular > religion. > > Sounds like the only time religion and culture make > good bed fellow > is when morality is at stake and even then it is > based on partial > amnesia and selective viewing. It has been said over > and over again > that the only way to fight and address the growing > HIV epidemic in > our community is to wake up to the reality of our > times and meet > people where they are. I know I stand the chance of > being crucified > but I'm a strong believer in the theory that you > need to save a man's > life before you can save his soul. Dead men don't > serve God or do > their families any good except you believe in the > sprit of the dead > watching over the family. > > When I started doing developmental work, I had some > fixed ideas of > right and wrong and my thoughts were straight and > narrow but the more > I work and grow, I realize that you must meet people > where they are > if your ultimate aim is to make an impact on your > target audience not > just throw your beliefs at people and prove that you > have superior > knowledge or beliefs. We also can't scare people > into good behavior, > neither can bullying and brow beating achieve > sustainable impact. > > My religious and cultural beliefs are mine and the > only people I can > judge by those standards are those who profess my > same faith or have > the same culture. I am a true Nigerian who was born > into and bred in > the Yoruba culture, schooled and lived in the Hausa > setting and > married into the Igbo culture and I can tell you > that one man's meat > is another's poison. Our definition of right and > wrong, appropriate > and inappropriate are miles apart. It is easy to say > we are all > Nigerians or we all serve the same God be it as > Pentecostals, > Protestants, Catholics or Moslems but when the chips > are down and > things we consider important are at stake, we all > might as well be > from different planets with the only thing in common > being the color > of our skin. Even that comes in different tones and > shades. > > The new school of thought around HIV and morality is > that we need to > have a rethink around things like condom use, sexual > orientation and > sexual experiences. > > I have repeatedly said the old ABC model has failed > us. > > A = Abstain - if you are in marriage or a long term > relationship, > abstinence is almost impossible so that cuts out a > large percentage > of people old and young. > > You can preach abstinence till you're blue in the > face and dig up all > the arguments against sex before marriage but the > reality of today is > that too many people are having sex and will > continue to do so in and > out of wedlock or even under the locker! Let us > remember that not all > sexual encounters are consensual, neither is all sex > for pleasure or > procreation. > > B = Be Faithful - In an ideal world, this makes > perfect sense but > because I can only speak for myself, my partner's > faithfulness is > based on nothing but faith and trust. I refuse to be > held accountable > for somebody else's faithfulness. In our culture, > the women have > gotten a very bad deal because they stayed faithful > and their > partners didn't. If a woman has sex outside her > marriage then she is > a whore and the scum of the earth but if a man does > the same then we > ask: " what is missing at home? " , we want to know > what his wife isn't > doing right that makes him stray, as if she is the > cause of his > infidelity rather than the aggrieved party. > > C = Condom Use - I hear you, but tell me how many of > us can negotiate > condom use in marriage or steady relationships? The > advert says " if > you no fit hold bodi, abeg use condom " and that > means condoms are for > the perverts who no fit hold bodi. Socially we > haven't marketed > condom use well and that's because deep down we > don't believe in the > rubber but will permit it for the dregs who won't > abide. > > Now if we are to define immorality as sex before > marriage, who shall > stand? What percentage of our population (old and > young) will have > noses if every time you had sex outside of marriage > a pimple appeared > on your nose and stayed there even after you got > married and received > the license to do??? If there was a way of telling > if you stayed > unsexed till your wedding night, I can imagine a lot > of people will > be less vocal. I'm not making a case for or against > pre marital sex > but I strongly object to you making sweeping > statements about what > makes people moral or immoral. If you profess > Christianity or Islam, > you can and will be judged by the dictates of your > religion but you > can't extend that to those who aren't of your same > faith. If your > religion says you're permitted one wife, you can't > make sweeping > statements about polygamous people. If your culture > accepts polygamy, > you can't scorn polyandry. If my culture permits me > to have sex with > my husband's kin for the sake of procre ation, don't > tell me that is > wrong and the only way I'm permitted to have > children is by adoption. > If it is culturally appropriate that I give my most > valued 'possession', the dearest person to me to a > visiting friend > for the night to show him that all I have is his and > I will hold > nothing back from him, what business of yours is it? > Neither my self, > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 !! Thanks!!!!!! At any one given time "religion" will fail. Has failed from the begining religious leaders called for the crucification of Christ. Just look what religious men and women have done or are doing around the world. Karogi Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> wrote: I like your argument in this. let remind you of onethat religion has fail but one thing is like therelationship between god and man. It is that man don'tunderstand God's purpose for his life. this is notreligion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it isa symptom the problem is the broken relationship andmoral dacay--- yamanjanl wrote:> Redefining Morality> > This Day (Lagos)> COLUMN> September 10, 2006> Posted to the web September 11, 2006> > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo> Lagos> > At the last International AIDS Conference in> Toronto, I was at a> session where the issue of us redefining morality> came up and the> views in that room were so diverse it would have> been comical if we> weren't talking serious life and death issue like> HIV infection and> human lives.> > At some point I almost got confused as I started> getting things mixed> up and had to ask myself some core questions like> does religion,> culture and morality mean the same thing? Are these> words> interchangeable and can they be substituted when its> convenient? I'm> aware that there is a lot of clash between religion> and culture and a> lot of people have been accused of throwing away> their cultural> values for religious dictates. In other places, some> religions are so> entrenched that the people's culture is totally> submerged and> sometimes you cant tell a person's religious> affiliation because the> culture of his/her people is totally immersed in a> particular> religion.> > Sounds like the only time religion and culture make> good bed fellow> is when morality is at stake and even then it is> based on partial> amnesia and selective viewing. It has been said over> and over again> that the only way to fight and address the growing> HIV epidemic in> our community is to wake up to the reality of our> times and meet> people where they are. I know I stand the chance of> being crucified> but I'm a strong believer in the theory that you> need to save a man's> life before you can save his soul. Dead men don't> serve God or do> their families any good except you believe in the> sprit of the dead> watching over the family.> > When I started doing developmental work, I had some> fixed ideas of> right and wrong and my thoughts were straight and> narrow but the more> I work and grow, I realize that you must meet people> where they are> if your ultimate aim is to make an impact on your> target audience not> just throw your beliefs at people and prove that you> have superior> knowledge or beliefs. We also can't scare people> into good behavior,> neither can bullying and brow beating achieve> sustainable impact.> > My religious and cultural beliefs are mine and the> only people I can> judge by those standards are those who profess my> same faith or have> the same culture. I am a true Nigerian who was born> into and bred in> the Yoruba culture, schooled and lived in the Hausa> setting and> married into the Igbo culture and I can tell you> that one man's meat> is another's poison. Our definition of right and> wrong, appropriate> and inappropriate are miles apart. It is easy to say> we are all> Nigerians or we all serve the same God be it as> Pentecostals,> Protestants, Catholics or Moslems but when the chips> are down and> things we consider important are at stake, we all> might as well be> from different planets with the only thing in common> being the color> of our skin. Even that comes in different tones and> shades.> > The new school of thought around HIV and morality is> that we need to> have a rethink around things like condom use, sexual> orientation and> sexual experiences.> > I have repeatedly said the old ABC model has failed> us.> > A = Abstain - if you are in marriage or a long term> relationship,> abstinence is almost impossible so that cuts out a> large percentage> of people old and young.> > You can preach abstinence till you're blue in the> face and dig up all> the arguments against sex before marriage but the> reality of today is> that too many people are having sex and will> continue to do so in and> out of wedlock or even under the locker! Let us> remember that not all> sexual encounters are consensual, neither is all sex> for pleasure or> procreation.> > B = Be Faithful - In an ideal world, this makes> perfect sense but> because I can only speak for myself, my partner's> faithfulness is> based on nothing but faith and trust. I refuse to be> held accountable> for somebody else's faithfulness. In our culture,> the women have> gotten a very bad deal because they stayed faithful> and their> partners didn't. If a woman has sex outside her> marriage then she is> a whore and the scum of the earth but if a man does> the same then we> ask: "what is missing at home?", we want to know> what his wife isn't> doing right that makes him stray, as if she is the> cause of his> infidelity rather than the aggrieved party.> > C = Condom Use - I hear you, but tell me how many of> us can negotiate> condom use in marriage or steady relationships? The> advert says "if> you no fit hold bodi, abeg use condom" and that> means condoms are for> the perverts who no fit hold bodi. Socially we> haven't marketed> condom use well and that's because deep down we> don't believe in the> rubber but will permit it for the dregs who won't> abide.> > Now if we are to define immorality as sex before> marriage, who shall> stand? What percentage of our population (old and> young) will have> noses if every time you had sex outside of marriage> a pimple appeared> on your nose and stayed there even after you got> married and received> the license to do??? If there was a way of telling> if you stayed> unsexed till your wedding night, I can imagine a lot> of people will> be less vocal. I'm not making a case for or against> pre marital sex> but I strongly object to you making sweeping> statements about what> makes people moral or immoral. If you profess> Christianity or Islam,> you can and will be judged by the dictates of your> religion but you> can't extend that to those who aren't of your same> faith. If your> religion says you're permitted one wife, you can't> make sweeping> statements about polygamous people. If your culture> accepts polygamy,> you can't scorn polyandry. If my culture permits me> to have sex with> my husband's kin for the sake of procre ation, don't> tell me that is> wrong and the only way I'm permitted to have> children is by adoption.> If it is culturally appropriate that I give my most> valued 'possession', the dearest person to me to a> visiting friend> for the night to show him that all I have is his and> I will hold> nothing back from him, what business of yours is it?> Neither my self,> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 !! Thanks!!!!!! At any one given time "religion" will fail. Has failed from the begining religious leaders called for the crucification of Christ. Just look what religious men and women have done or are doing around the world. Karogi Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> wrote: I like your argument in this. let remind you of onethat religion has fail but one thing is like therelationship between god and man. It is that man don'tunderstand God's purpose for his life. this is notreligion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it isa symptom the problem is the broken relationship andmoral dacay--- yamanjanl wrote:> Redefining Morality> > This Day (Lagos)> COLUMN> September 10, 2006> Posted to the web September 11, 2006> > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo> Lagos> > At the last International AIDS Conference in> Toronto, I was at a> session where the issue of us redefining morality> came up and the> views in that room were so diverse it would have> been comical if we> weren't talking serious life and death issue like> HIV infection and> human lives.> > At some point I almost got confused as I started> getting things mixed> up and had to ask myself some core questions like> does religion,> culture and morality mean the same thing? Are these> words> interchangeable and can they be substituted when its> convenient? I'm> aware that there is a lot of clash between religion> and culture and a> lot of people have been accused of throwing away> their cultural> values for religious dictates. In other places, some> religions are so> entrenched that the people's culture is totally> submerged and> sometimes you cant tell a person's religious> affiliation because the> culture of his/her people is totally immersed in a> particular> religion.> > Sounds like the only time religion and culture make> good bed fellow> is when morality is at stake and even then it is> based on partial> amnesia and selective viewing. It has been said over> and over again> that the only way to fight and address the growing> HIV epidemic in> our community is to wake up to the reality of our> times and meet> people where they are. I know I stand the chance of> being crucified> but I'm a strong believer in the theory that you> need to save a man's> life before you can save his soul. Dead men don't> serve God or do> their families any good except you believe in the> sprit of the dead> watching over the family.> > When I started doing developmental work, I had some> fixed ideas of> right and wrong and my thoughts were straight and> narrow but the more> I work and grow, I realize that you must meet people> where they are> if your ultimate aim is to make an impact on your> target audience not> just throw your beliefs at people and prove that you> have superior> knowledge or beliefs. We also can't scare people> into good behavior,> neither can bullying and brow beating achieve> sustainable impact.> > My religious and cultural beliefs are mine and the> only people I can> judge by those standards are those who profess my> same faith or have> the same culture. I am a true Nigerian who was born> into and bred in> the Yoruba culture, schooled and lived in the Hausa> setting and> married into the Igbo culture and I can tell you> that one man's meat> is another's poison. Our definition of right and> wrong, appropriate> and inappropriate are miles apart. It is easy to say> we are all> Nigerians or we all serve the same God be it as> Pentecostals,> Protestants, Catholics or Moslems but when the chips> are down and> things we consider important are at stake, we all> might as well be> from different planets with the only thing in common> being the color> of our skin. Even that comes in different tones and> shades.> > The new school of thought around HIV and morality is> that we need to> have a rethink around things like condom use, sexual> orientation and> sexual experiences.> > I have repeatedly said the old ABC model has failed> us.> > A = Abstain - if you are in marriage or a long term> relationship,> abstinence is almost impossible so that cuts out a> large percentage> of people old and young.> > You can preach abstinence till you're blue in the> face and dig up all> the arguments against sex before marriage but the> reality of today is> that too many people are having sex and will> continue to do so in and> out of wedlock or even under the locker! Let us> remember that not all> sexual encounters are consensual, neither is all sex> for pleasure or> procreation.> > B = Be Faithful - In an ideal world, this makes> perfect sense but> because I can only speak for myself, my partner's> faithfulness is> based on nothing but faith and trust. I refuse to be> held accountable> for somebody else's faithfulness. In our culture,> the women have> gotten a very bad deal because they stayed faithful> and their> partners didn't. If a woman has sex outside her> marriage then she is> a whore and the scum of the earth but if a man does> the same then we> ask: "what is missing at home?", we want to know> what his wife isn't> doing right that makes him stray, as if she is the> cause of his> infidelity rather than the aggrieved party.> > C = Condom Use - I hear you, but tell me how many of> us can negotiate> condom use in marriage or steady relationships? The> advert says "if> you no fit hold bodi, abeg use condom" and that> means condoms are for> the perverts who no fit hold bodi. Socially we> haven't marketed> condom use well and that's because deep down we> don't believe in the> rubber but will permit it for the dregs who won't> abide.> > Now if we are to define immorality as sex before> marriage, who shall> stand? What percentage of our population (old and> young) will have> noses if every time you had sex outside of marriage> a pimple appeared> on your nose and stayed there even after you got> married and received> the license to do??? If there was a way of telling> if you stayed> unsexed till your wedding night, I can imagine a lot> of people will> be less vocal. I'm not making a case for or against> pre marital sex> but I strongly object to you making sweeping> statements about what> makes people moral or immoral. If you profess> Christianity or Islam,> you can and will be judged by the dictates of your> religion but you> can't extend that to those who aren't of your same> faith. If your> religion says you're permitted one wife, you can't> make sweeping> statements about polygamous people. If your culture> accepts polygamy,> you can't scorn polyandry. If my culture permits me> to have sex with> my husband's kin for the sake of procre ation, don't> tell me that is> wrong and the only way I'm permitted to have> children is by adoption.> If it is culturally appropriate that I give my most> valued 'possession', the dearest person to me to a> visiting friend> for the night to show him that all I have is his and> I will hold> nothing back from him, what business of yours is it?> Neither my self,> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are dealing with are just symptoms of a problem (s) we do not even know about. Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one gets tempted to conclude that there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans about. In the first case,from what angle did he argue? Personal, research/evidence- based or just theory? Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to abstain from sex at all! Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional AIDS Conference that was a total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on whether Abstinence is real or not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other side of the world (West) told me that he is married and does not believe in either Abstinence or Being Faithful. My simple question to him was as to whether or not he was running around with other women at the conference and in the city of Toronto because he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - a NO! So I said to him that he was practising Abstinence until he got back to his wife and have sex with her. In addition, I made him to understand that by doing so he was practising Being Faithful in marriage because he is bound by the vow he made on the wedding day that he will leave all other women and stay with his wife alone. Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue using this example of someone going to a university and failing to get his or her degree after trying to study very hard. Does the failure to get one's degree mean that nobody can earn that particular degree? It is not an issue of redefining morality. Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values that we have dropped without better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B we understand but let it be failure after trying. What meesage does our argument send out to children that would like to try A and later B? Talking of marketing condoms enough as a solution may mean that every body believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we should stop theorizing about ABC as an approach but be more practical and realistic by promoting every thing that helps to prevent further infection of HIV including proper marketing of Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? Not at all!!!!!!! For us who have been on ground for years like my brother from Nigeria, have evidence that AB works because we have seen work for young people in Uganda, felt it and proved. If you have not implemented AB so that you prove beyond doubt that it does not work, for God's sake stop generalizing. It is misleading and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). For a long time, African cultural beliefs and practices have been under attack especially by the people from the west as all bad bad!!!!!! Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to blame HIV/AIDS on the African culture. Yes, there are dangerous cultural practices that help to spread the virus, but does that mean overshadowing the side of good values hence a campaign to change the African culture in order to address HIV/AIDS in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem must be addressed in the context of culture. What do we say about circumcision of men as a cultural practice considering that research is slowly providing evidence that circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV infection? All we needed from the start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to stop the practice, but to sensitize the participants of this practice to take precaution that the use of one knife to cut a number of boys and other related practices would put the young boys at a risk of getting HIV infection. We do not have the power to change culture when we what. The power lies with the people who own the culture. All that is needed is to work with them to prevent HIV infection. What I do not like is this thinking from the west that the more you are " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way of life and avoidance of diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the Karimojong - the most remote people in Uganda have low cases of HIV infection? One of the major factors is their strong culture that emphasizes certain norms and practices for everybody including their children - say the girls who are expected to keep their virginity until marriage. How do we deal with them on HIV? Ask them to drop their culture? Similarly, religion, morality and the like are part and parcel of African way of living. Let us cherish them and not try to kill and burry them without looking closely at the repurcussion of dropping the values that have brought us this far. Please take what makes sense and feel free to discard what appears to be silly. Thank you. Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> >Reply-AIDS treatments >AIDS treatments >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) > >I like your argument in this. let remind you of one >that religion has fail but one thing is like the >relationship between god and man. It is that man don't >understand God's purpose for his life. this is not >religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it is >a symptom the problem is the broken relationship and >moral dacay > >--- yamanjanl <yamanjanl@...> wrote: > > > Redefining Morality > > > > This Day (Lagos) > > COLUMN > > September 10, 2006 > > Posted to the web September 11, 2006 > > > > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo > > Lagos > > > > At the last International AIDS Conference in > > Toronto, I was at a > > session where the issue of us redefining morality > > came up and the > > views in that room were so diverse it would have > > been comical if we > > weren't talking serious life and death issue like > > HIV infection and > > human lives. > > > > At some point I almost got confused as I started > > getting things mixed > > up and had to ask myself some core questions like > > does religion, > > culture and morality mean the same thing? Are these > > words > > interchangeable and can they be substituted when its > > convenient? I'm > > aware that there is a lot of clash between religion > > and culture and a > > lot of people have been accused of throwing away > > their cultural > > values for religious dictates. In other places, some > > religions are so > > entrenched that the people's culture is totally > > submerged and > > sometimes you cant tell a person's religious > > affiliation because the > > culture of his/her people is totally immersed in a > > particular > > religion. > > > > Sounds like the only time religion and culture make > > good bed fellow > > is when morality is at stake and even then it is > > based on partial > > amnesia and selective viewing. It has been said over > > and over again > > that the only way to fight and address the growing > > HIV epidemic in > > our community is to wake up to the reality of our > > times and meet > > people where they are. I know I stand the chance of > > being crucified > > but I'm a strong believer in the theory that you > > need to save a man's > > life before you can save his soul. Dead men don't > > serve God or do > > their families any good except you believe in the > > sprit of the dead > > watching over the family. > > > > When I started doing developmental work, I had some > > fixed ideas of > > right and wrong and my thoughts were straight and > > narrow but the more > > I work and grow, I realize that you must meet people > > where they are > > if your ultimate aim is to make an impact on your > > target audience not > > just throw your beliefs at people and prove that you > > have superior > > knowledge or beliefs. We also can't scare people > > into good behavior, > > neither can bullying and brow beating achieve > > sustainable impact. > > > > My religious and cultural beliefs are mine and the > > only people I can > > judge by those standards are those who profess my > > same faith or have > > the same culture. I am a true Nigerian who was born > > into and bred in > > the Yoruba culture, schooled and lived in the Hausa > > setting and > > married into the Igbo culture and I can tell you > > that one man's meat > > is another's poison. Our definition of right and > > wrong, appropriate > > and inappropriate are miles apart. It is easy to say > > we are all > > Nigerians or we all serve the same God be it as > > Pentecostals, > > Protestants, Catholics or Moslems but when the chips > > are down and > > things we consider important are at stake, we all > > might as well be > > from different planets with the only thing in common > > being the color > > of our skin. Even that comes in different tones and > > shades. > > > > The new school of thought around HIV and morality is > > that we need to > > have a rethink around things like condom use, sexual > > orientation and > > sexual experiences. > > > > I have repeatedly said the old ABC model has failed > > us. > > > > A = Abstain - if you are in marriage or a long term > > relationship, > > abstinence is almost impossible so that cuts out a > > large percentage > > of people old and young. > > > > You can preach abstinence till you're blue in the > > face and dig up all > > the arguments against sex before marriage but the > > reality of today is > > that too many people are having sex and will > > continue to do so in and > > out of wedlock or even under the locker! Let us > > remember that not all > > sexual encounters are consensual, neither is all sex > > for pleasure or > > procreation. > > > > B = Be Faithful - In an ideal world, this makes > > perfect sense but > > because I can only speak for myself, my partner's > > faithfulness is > > based on nothing but faith and trust. I refuse to be > > held accountable > > for somebody else's faithfulness. In our culture, > > the women have > > gotten a very bad deal because they stayed faithful > > and their > > partners didn't. If a woman has sex outside her > > marriage then she is > > a whore and the scum of the earth but if a man does > > the same then we > > ask: " what is missing at home? " , we want to know > > what his wife isn't > > doing right that makes him stray, as if she is the > > cause of his > > infidelity rather than the aggrieved party. > > > > C = Condom Use - I hear you, but tell me how many of > > us can negotiate > > condom use in marriage or steady relationships? The > > advert says " if > > you no fit hold bodi, abeg use condom " and that > > means condoms are for > > the perverts who no fit hold bodi. Socially we > > haven't marketed > > condom use well and that's because deep down we > > don't believe in the > > rubber but will permit it for the dregs who won't > > abide. > > > > Now if we are to define immorality as sex before > > marriage, who shall > > stand? What percentage of our population (old and > > young) will have > > noses if every time you had sex outside of marriage > > a pimple appeared > > on your nose and stayed there even after you got > > married and received > > the license to do??? If there was a way of telling > > if you stayed > > unsexed till your wedding night, I can imagine a lot > > of people will > > be less vocal. I'm not making a case for or against > > pre marital sex > > but I strongly object to you making sweeping > > statements about what > > makes people moral or immoral. If you profess > > Christianity or Islam, > > you can and will be judged by the dictates of your > > religion but you > > can't extend that to those who aren't of your same > > faith. If your > > religion says you're permitted one wife, you can't > > make sweeping > > statements about polygamous people. If your culture > > accepts polygamy, > > you can't scorn polyandry. If my culture permits me > > to have sex with > > my husband's kin for the sake of procre ation, don't > > tell me that is > > wrong and the only way I'm permitted to have > > children is by adoption. > > If it is culturally appropriate that I give my most > > valued 'possession', the dearest person to me to a > > visiting friend > > for the night to show him that all I have is his and > > I will hold > > nothing back from him, what business of yours is it? > > Neither my self, > > >=== message truncated === > > >__________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are dealing with are just symptoms of a problem (s) we do not even know about. Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one gets tempted to conclude that there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans about. In the first case,from what angle did he argue? Personal, research/evidence- based or just theory? Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to abstain from sex at all! Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional AIDS Conference that was a total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on whether Abstinence is real or not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other side of the world (West) told me that he is married and does not believe in either Abstinence or Being Faithful. My simple question to him was as to whether or not he was running around with other women at the conference and in the city of Toronto because he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - a NO! So I said to him that he was practising Abstinence until he got back to his wife and have sex with her. In addition, I made him to understand that by doing so he was practising Being Faithful in marriage because he is bound by the vow he made on the wedding day that he will leave all other women and stay with his wife alone. Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue using this example of someone going to a university and failing to get his or her degree after trying to study very hard. Does the failure to get one's degree mean that nobody can earn that particular degree? It is not an issue of redefining morality. Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values that we have dropped without better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B we understand but let it be failure after trying. What meesage does our argument send out to children that would like to try A and later B? Talking of marketing condoms enough as a solution may mean that every body believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we should stop theorizing about ABC as an approach but be more practical and realistic by promoting every thing that helps to prevent further infection of HIV including proper marketing of Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? Not at all!!!!!!! For us who have been on ground for years like my brother from Nigeria, have evidence that AB works because we have seen work for young people in Uganda, felt it and proved. If you have not implemented AB so that you prove beyond doubt that it does not work, for God's sake stop generalizing. It is misleading and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). For a long time, African cultural beliefs and practices have been under attack especially by the people from the west as all bad bad!!!!!! Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to blame HIV/AIDS on the African culture. Yes, there are dangerous cultural practices that help to spread the virus, but does that mean overshadowing the side of good values hence a campaign to change the African culture in order to address HIV/AIDS in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem must be addressed in the context of culture. What do we say about circumcision of men as a cultural practice considering that research is slowly providing evidence that circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV infection? All we needed from the start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to stop the practice, but to sensitize the participants of this practice to take precaution that the use of one knife to cut a number of boys and other related practices would put the young boys at a risk of getting HIV infection. We do not have the power to change culture when we what. The power lies with the people who own the culture. All that is needed is to work with them to prevent HIV infection. What I do not like is this thinking from the west that the more you are " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way of life and avoidance of diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the Karimojong - the most remote people in Uganda have low cases of HIV infection? One of the major factors is their strong culture that emphasizes certain norms and practices for everybody including their children - say the girls who are expected to keep their virginity until marriage. How do we deal with them on HIV? Ask them to drop their culture? Similarly, religion, morality and the like are part and parcel of African way of living. Let us cherish them and not try to kill and burry them without looking closely at the repurcussion of dropping the values that have brought us this far. Please take what makes sense and feel free to discard what appears to be silly. Thank you. Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> >Reply-AIDS treatments >AIDS treatments >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) > >I like your argument in this. let remind you of one >that religion has fail but one thing is like the >relationship between god and man. It is that man don't >understand God's purpose for his life. this is not >religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it is >a symptom the problem is the broken relationship and >moral dacay > >--- yamanjanl <yamanjanl@...> wrote: > > > Redefining Morality > > > > This Day (Lagos) > > COLUMN > > September 10, 2006 > > Posted to the web September 11, 2006 > > > > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo > > Lagos > > > > At the last International AIDS Conference in > > Toronto, I was at a > > session where the issue of us redefining morality > > came up and the > > views in that room were so diverse it would have > > been comical if we > > weren't talking serious life and death issue like > > HIV infection and > > human lives. > > > > At some point I almost got confused as I started > > getting things mixed > > up and had to ask myself some core questions like > > does religion, > > culture and morality mean the same thing? Are these > > words > > interchangeable and can they be substituted when its > > convenient? I'm > > aware that there is a lot of clash between religion > > and culture and a > > lot of people have been accused of throwing away > > their cultural > > values for religious dictates. In other places, some > > religions are so > > entrenched that the people's culture is totally > > submerged and > > sometimes you cant tell a person's religious > > affiliation because the > > culture of his/her people is totally immersed in a > > particular > > religion. > > > > Sounds like the only time religion and culture make > > good bed fellow > > is when morality is at stake and even then it is > > based on partial > > amnesia and selective viewing. It has been said over > > and over again > > that the only way to fight and address the growing > > HIV epidemic in > > our community is to wake up to the reality of our > > times and meet > > people where they are. I know I stand the chance of > > being crucified > > but I'm a strong believer in the theory that you > > need to save a man's > > life before you can save his soul. Dead men don't > > serve God or do > > their families any good except you believe in the > > sprit of the dead > > watching over the family. > > > > When I started doing developmental work, I had some > > fixed ideas of > > right and wrong and my thoughts were straight and > > narrow but the more > > I work and grow, I realize that you must meet people > > where they are > > if your ultimate aim is to make an impact on your > > target audience not > > just throw your beliefs at people and prove that you > > have superior > > knowledge or beliefs. We also can't scare people > > into good behavior, > > neither can bullying and brow beating achieve > > sustainable impact. > > > > My religious and cultural beliefs are mine and the > > only people I can > > judge by those standards are those who profess my > > same faith or have > > the same culture. I am a true Nigerian who was born > > into and bred in > > the Yoruba culture, schooled and lived in the Hausa > > setting and > > married into the Igbo culture and I can tell you > > that one man's meat > > is another's poison. Our definition of right and > > wrong, appropriate > > and inappropriate are miles apart. It is easy to say > > we are all > > Nigerians or we all serve the same God be it as > > Pentecostals, > > Protestants, Catholics or Moslems but when the chips > > are down and > > things we consider important are at stake, we all > > might as well be > > from different planets with the only thing in common > > being the color > > of our skin. Even that comes in different tones and > > shades. > > > > The new school of thought around HIV and morality is > > that we need to > > have a rethink around things like condom use, sexual > > orientation and > > sexual experiences. > > > > I have repeatedly said the old ABC model has failed > > us. > > > > A = Abstain - if you are in marriage or a long term > > relationship, > > abstinence is almost impossible so that cuts out a > > large percentage > > of people old and young. > > > > You can preach abstinence till you're blue in the > > face and dig up all > > the arguments against sex before marriage but the > > reality of today is > > that too many people are having sex and will > > continue to do so in and > > out of wedlock or even under the locker! Let us > > remember that not all > > sexual encounters are consensual, neither is all sex > > for pleasure or > > procreation. > > > > B = Be Faithful - In an ideal world, this makes > > perfect sense but > > because I can only speak for myself, my partner's > > faithfulness is > > based on nothing but faith and trust. I refuse to be > > held accountable > > for somebody else's faithfulness. In our culture, > > the women have > > gotten a very bad deal because they stayed faithful > > and their > > partners didn't. If a woman has sex outside her > > marriage then she is > > a whore and the scum of the earth but if a man does > > the same then we > > ask: " what is missing at home? " , we want to know > > what his wife isn't > > doing right that makes him stray, as if she is the > > cause of his > > infidelity rather than the aggrieved party. > > > > C = Condom Use - I hear you, but tell me how many of > > us can negotiate > > condom use in marriage or steady relationships? The > > advert says " if > > you no fit hold bodi, abeg use condom " and that > > means condoms are for > > the perverts who no fit hold bodi. Socially we > > haven't marketed > > condom use well and that's because deep down we > > don't believe in the > > rubber but will permit it for the dregs who won't > > abide. > > > > Now if we are to define immorality as sex before > > marriage, who shall > > stand? What percentage of our population (old and > > young) will have > > noses if every time you had sex outside of marriage > > a pimple appeared > > on your nose and stayed there even after you got > > married and received > > the license to do??? If there was a way of telling > > if you stayed > > unsexed till your wedding night, I can imagine a lot > > of people will > > be less vocal. I'm not making a case for or against > > pre marital sex > > but I strongly object to you making sweeping > > statements about what > > makes people moral or immoral. If you profess > > Christianity or Islam, > > you can and will be judged by the dictates of your > > religion but you > > can't extend that to those who aren't of your same > > faith. If your > > religion says you're permitted one wife, you can't > > make sweeping > > statements about polygamous people. If your culture > > accepts polygamy, > > you can't scorn polyandry. If my culture permits me > > to have sex with > > my husband's kin for the sake of procre ation, don't > > tell me that is > > wrong and the only way I'm permitted to have > > children is by adoption. > > If it is culturally appropriate that I give my most > > valued 'possession', the dearest person to me to a > > visiting friend > > for the night to show him that all I have is his and > > I will hold > > nothing back from him, what business of yours is it? > > Neither my self, > > >=== message truncated === > > >__________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 Thank you Rev Evatt. One thing I want to say again is that we african have become the victim of research. They are now doing research in Kisumu where I come from about the circumation this will not help us because wheather circumiced or not you will be infectioned if you have sex with the infection. It is a matter of behiour change and this research is making those who would have change behaviour to relax. Let face the truth it is not the circumcition but responble behaviour which is what africans value. --- Evatt Mugarura <emugarura@...> wrote: > > I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are dealing > with are just symptoms > of a problem (s) we do not even know about. > Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one gets > tempted to conclude that > there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans > about. > > In the first case,from what angle did he argue? > Personal, research/evidence- > based or just theory? > > Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to > abstain from sex at all! > Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional AIDS > Conference that was a > total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on whether > Abstinence is real or > not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other side > of the world (West) told > me that he is married and does not believe in either > Abstinence or Being > Faithful. My simple question to him was as to > whether or not he was running > around with other women at the conference and in the > city of Toronto because > he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - a > NO! So I said to him that > he was practising Abstinence until he got back to > his wife and have sex with > her. In addition, I made him to understand that by > doing so he was > practising Being Faithful in marriage because he is > bound by the vow he made > on the wedding day that he will leave all other > women and stay with his wife > alone. > > Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue using > this example of someone > going to a university and failing to get his or her > degree after trying to > study very hard. Does the failure to get one's > degree mean that nobody can > earn that particular degree? It is not an issue of > redefining morality. > Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values that we > have dropped without > better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B we > understand but let it be > failure after trying. What meesage does our argument > send out to children > that would like to try A and later B? > > Talking of marketing condoms enough as a solution > may mean that every body > believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we should > stop theorizing about ABC > as an approach but be more practical and realistic > by promoting every thing > that helps to prevent further infection of HIV > including proper marketing of > Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. > > Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? Not > at all!!!!!!! For us who > have been on ground for years like my brother from > Nigeria, have evidence > that AB works because we have seen work for young > people in Uganda, felt it > and proved. If you have not implemented AB so that > you prove beyond doubt > that it does not work, for God's sake stop > generalizing. It is misleading > and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). > > For a long time, African cultural beliefs and > practices have been under > attack especially by the people from the west as all > bad bad!!!!!! > Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to > blame HIV/AIDS on the > African culture. Yes, there are dangerous cultural > practices that help to > spread the virus, but does that mean overshadowing > the side of good values > hence a campaign to change the African culture in > order to address HIV/AIDS > in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem must be > addressed in the > context of culture. What do we say about > circumcision of men as a cultural > practice considering that research is slowly > providing evidence that > circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV infection? > All we needed from the > start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to stop > the practice, but to > sensitize the participants of this practice to take > precaution that the use > of one knife to cut a number of boys and other > related practices would put > the young boys at a risk of getting HIV infection. > We do not have the power > to change culture when we what. The power lies with > the people who own the > culture. All that is needed is to work with them to > prevent HIV infection. > > What I do not like is this thinking from the west > that the more you are > " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way of > life and avoidance of > diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the > Karimojong - the most remote > people in Uganda have low cases of HIV infection? > One of the major factors > is their strong culture that emphasizes certain > norms and practices for > everybody including their children - say the girls > who are expected to keep > their virginity until marriage. How do we deal with > them on HIV? Ask them to > drop their culture? > > Similarly, religion, morality and the like are part > and parcel of African > way of living. Let us cherish them and not try to > kill and burry them > without looking closely at the repurcussion of > dropping the values that have > brought us this far. > > > Please take what makes sense and feel free to > discard what appears to be > silly. > > Thank you. > > Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura > > > > >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> > >Reply-AIDS treatments > >AIDS treatments > >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) > > > >I like your argument in this. let remind you of one > >that religion has fail but one thing is like the > >relationship between god and man. It is that man > don't > >understand God's purpose for his life. this is not > >religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it > is > >a symptom the problem is the broken relationship > and > >moral dacay > > > >--- yamanjanl <yamanjanl@...> wrote: > > > > > Redefining Morality > > > > > > This Day (Lagos) > > > COLUMN > > > September 10, 2006 > > > Posted to the web September 11, 2006 > > > > > > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo > > > Lagos > > > > > > At the last International AIDS Conference in > > > Toronto, I was at a > > > session where the issue of us redefining > morality > > > came up and the > > > views in that room were so diverse it would have > > > been comical if we > > > weren't talking serious life and death issue > like > > > HIV infection and > > > human lives. > > > > > > At some point I almost got confused as I started > > > getting things mixed > > > up and had to ask myself some core questions > like > > > does religion, > > > culture and morality mean the same thing? Are > these > > > words > > > interchangeable and can they be substituted when > its > > > convenient? I'm > > > aware that there is a lot of clash between > religion > > > and culture and a > > > lot of people have been accused of throwing away > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 Thank you Rev Evatt. One thing I want to say again is that we african have become the victim of research. They are now doing research in Kisumu where I come from about the circumation this will not help us because wheather circumiced or not you will be infectioned if you have sex with the infection. It is a matter of behiour change and this research is making those who would have change behaviour to relax. Let face the truth it is not the circumcition but responble behaviour which is what africans value. --- Evatt Mugarura <emugarura@...> wrote: > > I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are dealing > with are just symptoms > of a problem (s) we do not even know about. > Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one gets > tempted to conclude that > there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans > about. > > In the first case,from what angle did he argue? > Personal, research/evidence- > based or just theory? > > Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to > abstain from sex at all! > Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional AIDS > Conference that was a > total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on whether > Abstinence is real or > not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other side > of the world (West) told > me that he is married and does not believe in either > Abstinence or Being > Faithful. My simple question to him was as to > whether or not he was running > around with other women at the conference and in the > city of Toronto because > he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - a > NO! So I said to him that > he was practising Abstinence until he got back to > his wife and have sex with > her. In addition, I made him to understand that by > doing so he was > practising Being Faithful in marriage because he is > bound by the vow he made > on the wedding day that he will leave all other > women and stay with his wife > alone. > > Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue using > this example of someone > going to a university and failing to get his or her > degree after trying to > study very hard. Does the failure to get one's > degree mean that nobody can > earn that particular degree? It is not an issue of > redefining morality. > Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values that we > have dropped without > better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B we > understand but let it be > failure after trying. What meesage does our argument > send out to children > that would like to try A and later B? > > Talking of marketing condoms enough as a solution > may mean that every body > believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we should > stop theorizing about ABC > as an approach but be more practical and realistic > by promoting every thing > that helps to prevent further infection of HIV > including proper marketing of > Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. > > Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? Not > at all!!!!!!! For us who > have been on ground for years like my brother from > Nigeria, have evidence > that AB works because we have seen work for young > people in Uganda, felt it > and proved. If you have not implemented AB so that > you prove beyond doubt > that it does not work, for God's sake stop > generalizing. It is misleading > and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). > > For a long time, African cultural beliefs and > practices have been under > attack especially by the people from the west as all > bad bad!!!!!! > Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to > blame HIV/AIDS on the > African culture. Yes, there are dangerous cultural > practices that help to > spread the virus, but does that mean overshadowing > the side of good values > hence a campaign to change the African culture in > order to address HIV/AIDS > in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem must be > addressed in the > context of culture. What do we say about > circumcision of men as a cultural > practice considering that research is slowly > providing evidence that > circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV infection? > All we needed from the > start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to stop > the practice, but to > sensitize the participants of this practice to take > precaution that the use > of one knife to cut a number of boys and other > related practices would put > the young boys at a risk of getting HIV infection. > We do not have the power > to change culture when we what. The power lies with > the people who own the > culture. All that is needed is to work with them to > prevent HIV infection. > > What I do not like is this thinking from the west > that the more you are > " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way of > life and avoidance of > diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the > Karimojong - the most remote > people in Uganda have low cases of HIV infection? > One of the major factors > is their strong culture that emphasizes certain > norms and practices for > everybody including their children - say the girls > who are expected to keep > their virginity until marriage. How do we deal with > them on HIV? Ask them to > drop their culture? > > Similarly, religion, morality and the like are part > and parcel of African > way of living. Let us cherish them and not try to > kill and burry them > without looking closely at the repurcussion of > dropping the values that have > brought us this far. > > > Please take what makes sense and feel free to > discard what appears to be > silly. > > Thank you. > > Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura > > > > >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> > >Reply-AIDS treatments > >AIDS treatments > >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) > > > >I like your argument in this. let remind you of one > >that religion has fail but one thing is like the > >relationship between god and man. It is that man > don't > >understand God's purpose for his life. this is not > >religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it > is > >a symptom the problem is the broken relationship > and > >moral dacay > > > >--- yamanjanl <yamanjanl@...> wrote: > > > > > Redefining Morality > > > > > > This Day (Lagos) > > > COLUMN > > > September 10, 2006 > > > Posted to the web September 11, 2006 > > > > > > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo > > > Lagos > > > > > > At the last International AIDS Conference in > > > Toronto, I was at a > > > session where the issue of us redefining > morality > > > came up and the > > > views in that room were so diverse it would have > > > been comical if we > > > weren't talking serious life and death issue > like > > > HIV infection and > > > human lives. > > > > > > At some point I almost got confused as I started > > > getting things mixed > > > up and had to ask myself some core questions > like > > > does religion, > > > culture and morality mean the same thing? Are > these > > > words > > > interchangeable and can they be substituted when > its > > > convenient? I'm > > > aware that there is a lot of clash between > religion > > > and culture and a > > > lot of people have been accused of throwing away > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2006 Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 Biblicaly, Sex is more mental than phisical ..Jesus said looking at awoman lastfully islike commiting sexwith her,thisis to say circumcised or not. With aidsits amtter of are we willing to change from inside us,morally then outwardly we shallbe ready to fight the spread. What doyou say Mathh?. TOM OCHUKA. --- Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> wrote: > Thank you Rev Evatt. > One thing I want to say again is that we african > have > become the victim of research. They are now doing > research in Kisumu where I come from about the > circumation this will not help us because wheather > circumiced or not you will be infectioned if you > have > sex with the infection. It is a matter of behiour > change and this research is making those who would > have change behaviour to relax. Let face the truth > it > is not the circumcition but responble behaviour > which > is what africans value. > > > --- Evatt Mugarura <emugarura@...> wrote: > > > > > I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are > dealing > > with are just symptoms > > of a problem (s) we do not even know about. > > Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one > gets > > tempted to conclude that > > there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans > > about. > > > > In the first case,from what angle did he argue? > > Personal, research/evidence- > > based or just theory? > > > > Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to > > abstain from sex at all! > > Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional > AIDS > > Conference that was a > > total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on > whether > > Abstinence is real or > > not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other side > > of the world (West) told > > me that he is married and does not believe in > either > > Abstinence or Being > > Faithful. My simple question to him was as to > > whether or not he was running > > around with other women at the conference and in > the > > city of Toronto because > > he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - a > > NO! So I said to him that > > he was practising Abstinence until he got back to > > his wife and have sex with > > her. In addition, I made him to understand that by > > doing so he was > > practising Being Faithful in marriage because he > is > > bound by the vow he made > > on the wedding day that he will leave all other > > women and stay with his wife > > alone. > > > > Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue > using > > this example of someone > > going to a university and failing to get his or > her > > degree after trying to > > study very hard. Does the failure to get one's > > degree mean that nobody can > > earn that particular degree? It is not an issue of > > redefining morality. > > Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values that > we > > have dropped without > > better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B > we > > understand but let it be > > failure after trying. What meesage does our > argument > > send out to children > > that would like to try A and later B? > > > > Talking of marketing condoms enough as a solution > > may mean that every body > > believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we should > > stop theorizing about ABC > > as an approach but be more practical and realistic > > by promoting every thing > > that helps to prevent further infection of HIV > > including proper marketing of > > Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. > > > > Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? > Not > > at all!!!!!!! For us who > > have been on ground for years like my brother from > > Nigeria, have evidence > > that AB works because we have seen work for young > > people in Uganda, felt it > > and proved. If you have not implemented AB so that > > you prove beyond doubt > > that it does not work, for God's sake stop > > generalizing. It is misleading > > and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). > > > > For a long time, African cultural beliefs and > > practices have been under > > attack especially by the people from the west as > all > > bad bad!!!!!! > > Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to > > blame HIV/AIDS on the > > African culture. Yes, there are dangerous cultural > > practices that help to > > spread the virus, but does that mean overshadowing > > the side of good values > > hence a campaign to change the African culture in > > order to address HIV/AIDS > > in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem must > be > > addressed in the > > context of culture. What do we say about > > circumcision of men as a cultural > > practice considering that research is slowly > > providing evidence that > > circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV infection? > > All we needed from the > > start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to > stop > > the practice, but to > > sensitize the participants of this practice to > take > > precaution that the use > > of one knife to cut a number of boys and other > > related practices would put > > the young boys at a risk of getting HIV infection. > > We do not have the power > > to change culture when we what. The power lies > with > > the people who own the > > culture. All that is needed is to work with them > to > > prevent HIV infection. > > > > What I do not like is this thinking from the west > > that the more you are > > " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way > of > > life and avoidance of > > diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the > > Karimojong - the most remote > > people in Uganda have low cases of HIV infection? > > One of the major factors > > is their strong culture that emphasizes certain > > norms and practices for > > everybody including their children - say the girls > > who are expected to keep > > their virginity until marriage. How do we deal > with > > them on HIV? Ask them to > > drop their culture? > > > > Similarly, religion, morality and the like are > part > > and parcel of African > > way of living. Let us cherish them and not try to > > kill and burry them > > without looking closely at the repurcussion of > > dropping the values that have > > brought us this far. > > > > > > Please take what makes sense and feel free to > > discard what appears to be > > silly. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura > > > > > > > > >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> > > >Reply-AIDS treatments > > >AIDS treatments > > >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality > > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >I like your argument in this. let remind you of > one > > >that religion has fail but one thing is like the > > >relationship between god and man. It is that man > > don't > > >understand God's purpose for his life. this is > not > > >religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem > it > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2006 Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 Biblicaly, Sex is more mental than phisical ..Jesus said looking at awoman lastfully islike commiting sexwith her,thisis to say circumcised or not. With aidsits amtter of are we willing to change from inside us,morally then outwardly we shallbe ready to fight the spread. What doyou say Mathh?. TOM OCHUKA. --- Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> wrote: > Thank you Rev Evatt. > One thing I want to say again is that we african > have > become the victim of research. They are now doing > research in Kisumu where I come from about the > circumation this will not help us because wheather > circumiced or not you will be infectioned if you > have > sex with the infection. It is a matter of behiour > change and this research is making those who would > have change behaviour to relax. Let face the truth > it > is not the circumcition but responble behaviour > which > is what africans value. > > > --- Evatt Mugarura <emugarura@...> wrote: > > > > > I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are > dealing > > with are just symptoms > > of a problem (s) we do not even know about. > > Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one > gets > > tempted to conclude that > > there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans > > about. > > > > In the first case,from what angle did he argue? > > Personal, research/evidence- > > based or just theory? > > > > Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to > > abstain from sex at all! > > Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional > AIDS > > Conference that was a > > total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on > whether > > Abstinence is real or > > not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other side > > of the world (West) told > > me that he is married and does not believe in > either > > Abstinence or Being > > Faithful. My simple question to him was as to > > whether or not he was running > > around with other women at the conference and in > the > > city of Toronto because > > he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - a > > NO! So I said to him that > > he was practising Abstinence until he got back to > > his wife and have sex with > > her. In addition, I made him to understand that by > > doing so he was > > practising Being Faithful in marriage because he > is > > bound by the vow he made > > on the wedding day that he will leave all other > > women and stay with his wife > > alone. > > > > Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue > using > > this example of someone > > going to a university and failing to get his or > her > > degree after trying to > > study very hard. Does the failure to get one's > > degree mean that nobody can > > earn that particular degree? It is not an issue of > > redefining morality. > > Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values that > we > > have dropped without > > better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B > we > > understand but let it be > > failure after trying. What meesage does our > argument > > send out to children > > that would like to try A and later B? > > > > Talking of marketing condoms enough as a solution > > may mean that every body > > believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we should > > stop theorizing about ABC > > as an approach but be more practical and realistic > > by promoting every thing > > that helps to prevent further infection of HIV > > including proper marketing of > > Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. > > > > Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? > Not > > at all!!!!!!! For us who > > have been on ground for years like my brother from > > Nigeria, have evidence > > that AB works because we have seen work for young > > people in Uganda, felt it > > and proved. If you have not implemented AB so that > > you prove beyond doubt > > that it does not work, for God's sake stop > > generalizing. It is misleading > > and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). > > > > For a long time, African cultural beliefs and > > practices have been under > > attack especially by the people from the west as > all > > bad bad!!!!!! > > Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to > > blame HIV/AIDS on the > > African culture. Yes, there are dangerous cultural > > practices that help to > > spread the virus, but does that mean overshadowing > > the side of good values > > hence a campaign to change the African culture in > > order to address HIV/AIDS > > in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem must > be > > addressed in the > > context of culture. What do we say about > > circumcision of men as a cultural > > practice considering that research is slowly > > providing evidence that > > circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV infection? > > All we needed from the > > start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to > stop > > the practice, but to > > sensitize the participants of this practice to > take > > precaution that the use > > of one knife to cut a number of boys and other > > related practices would put > > the young boys at a risk of getting HIV infection. > > We do not have the power > > to change culture when we what. The power lies > with > > the people who own the > > culture. All that is needed is to work with them > to > > prevent HIV infection. > > > > What I do not like is this thinking from the west > > that the more you are > > " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way > of > > life and avoidance of > > diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the > > Karimojong - the most remote > > people in Uganda have low cases of HIV infection? > > One of the major factors > > is their strong culture that emphasizes certain > > norms and practices for > > everybody including their children - say the girls > > who are expected to keep > > their virginity until marriage. How do we deal > with > > them on HIV? Ask them to > > drop their culture? > > > > Similarly, religion, morality and the like are > part > > and parcel of African > > way of living. Let us cherish them and not try to > > kill and burry them > > without looking closely at the repurcussion of > > dropping the values that have > > brought us this far. > > > > > > Please take what makes sense and feel free to > > discard what appears to be > > silly. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura > > > > > > > > >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> > > >Reply-AIDS treatments > > >AIDS treatments > > >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality > > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >I like your argument in this. let remind you of > one > > >that religion has fail but one thing is like the > > >relationship between god and man. It is that man > > don't > > >understand God's purpose for his life. this is > not > > >religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem > it > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2006 Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 Dear all, I thought that the attached document would be interesting for the network. The Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> >Reply-AIDS treatments >AIDS treatments >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:03:28 -0700 (PDT) > >Thank you Rev Evatt. >One thing I want to say again is that we african have >become the victim of research. They are now doing >research in Kisumu where I come from about the >circumation this will not help us because wheather >circumiced or not you will be infectioned if you have >sex with the infection. It is a matter of behiour >change and this research is making those who would >have change behaviour to relax. Let face the truth it >is not the circumcition but responble behaviour which >is what africans value. > > >--- Evatt Mugarura <emugarura@...> wrote: > > > > > I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are dealing > > with are just symptoms > > of a problem (s) we do not even know about. > > Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one gets > > tempted to conclude that > > there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans > > about. > > > > In the first case,from what angle did he argue? > > Personal, research/evidence- > > based or just theory? > > > > Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to > > abstain from sex at all! > > Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional AIDS > > Conference that was a > > total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on whether > > Abstinence is real or > > not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other side > > of the world (West) told > > me that he is married and does not believe in either > > Abstinence or Being > > Faithful. My simple question to him was as to > > whether or not he was running > > around with other women at the conference and in the > > city of Toronto because > > he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - a > > NO! So I said to him that > > he was practising Abstinence until he got back to > > his wife and have sex with > > her. In addition, I made him to understand that by > > doing so he was > > practising Being Faithful in marriage because he is > > bound by the vow he made > > on the wedding day that he will leave all other > > women and stay with his wife > > alone. > > > > Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue using > > this example of someone > > going to a university and failing to get his or her > > degree after trying to > > study very hard. Does the failure to get one's > > degree mean that nobody can > > earn that particular degree? It is not an issue of > > redefining morality. > > Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values that we > > have dropped without > > better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B we > > understand but let it be > > failure after trying. What meesage does our argument > > send out to children > > that would like to try A and later B? > > > > Talking of marketing condoms enough as a solution > > may mean that every body > > believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we should > > stop theorizing about ABC > > as an approach but be more practical and realistic > > by promoting every thing > > that helps to prevent further infection of HIV > > including proper marketing of > > Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. > > > > Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? Not > > at all!!!!!!! For us who > > have been on ground for years like my brother from > > Nigeria, have evidence > > that AB works because we have seen work for young > > people in Uganda, felt it > > and proved. If you have not implemented AB so that > > you prove beyond doubt > > that it does not work, for God's sake stop > > generalizing. It is misleading > > and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). > > > > For a long time, African cultural beliefs and > > practices have been under > > attack especially by the people from the west as all > > bad bad!!!!!! > > Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to > > blame HIV/AIDS on the > > African culture. Yes, there are dangerous cultural > > practices that help to > > spread the virus, but does that mean overshadowing > > the side of good values > > hence a campaign to change the African culture in > > order to address HIV/AIDS > > in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem must be > > addressed in the > > context of culture. What do we say about > > circumcision of men as a cultural > > practice considering that research is slowly > > providing evidence that > > circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV infection? > > All we needed from the > > start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to stop > > the practice, but to > > sensitize the participants of this practice to take > > precaution that the use > > of one knife to cut a number of boys and other > > related practices would put > > the young boys at a risk of getting HIV infection. > > We do not have the power > > to change culture when we what. The power lies with > > the people who own the > > culture. All that is needed is to work with them to > > prevent HIV infection. > > > > What I do not like is this thinking from the west > > that the more you are > > " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way of > > life and avoidance of > > diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the > > Karimojong - the most remote > > people in Uganda have low cases of HIV infection? > > One of the major factors > > is their strong culture that emphasizes certain > > norms and practices for > > everybody including their children - say the girls > > who are expected to keep > > their virginity until marriage. How do we deal with > > them on HIV? Ask them to > > drop their culture? > > > > Similarly, religion, morality and the like are part > > and parcel of African > > way of living. Let us cherish them and not try to > > kill and burry them > > without looking closely at the repurcussion of > > dropping the values that have > > brought us this far. > > > > > > Please take what makes sense and feel free to > > discard what appears to be > > silly. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura > > > > > > > > >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> > > >Reply-AIDS treatments > > >AIDS treatments > > >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality > > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >I like your argument in this. let remind you of one > > >that religion has fail but one thing is like the > > >relationship between god and man. It is that man > > don't > > >understand God's purpose for his life. this is not > > >religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it > > is > > >a symptom the problem is the broken relationship > > and > > >moral dacay > > > > > >--- yamanjanl <yamanjanl@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Redefining Morality > > > > > > > > This Day (Lagos) > > > > COLUMN > > > > September 10, 2006 > > > > Posted to the web September 11, 2006 > > > > > > > > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo > > > > Lagos > > > > > > > > At the last International AIDS Conference in > > > > Toronto, I was at a > > > > session where the issue of us redefining > > morality > > > > came up and the > > > > views in that room were so diverse it would have > > > > been comical if we > > > > weren't talking serious life and death issue > > like > > > > HIV infection and > > > > human lives. > > > > > > > > At some point I almost got confused as I started > > > > getting things mixed > > > > up and had to ask myself some core questions > > like > > > > does religion, > > > > culture and morality mean the same thing? Are > > these > > > > words > > > > interchangeable and can they be substituted when > > its > > > > convenient? I'm > > > > aware that there is a lot of clash between > > religion > > > > and culture and a > > > > lot of people have been accused of throwing away > > >=== message truncated === > > >__________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2006 Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 Dear all, I thought that the attached document would be interesting for the network. The Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> >Reply-AIDS treatments >AIDS treatments >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:03:28 -0700 (PDT) > >Thank you Rev Evatt. >One thing I want to say again is that we african have >become the victim of research. They are now doing >research in Kisumu where I come from about the >circumation this will not help us because wheather >circumiced or not you will be infectioned if you have >sex with the infection. It is a matter of behiour >change and this research is making those who would >have change behaviour to relax. Let face the truth it >is not the circumcition but responble behaviour which >is what africans value. > > >--- Evatt Mugarura <emugarura@...> wrote: > > > > > I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are dealing > > with are just symptoms > > of a problem (s) we do not even know about. > > Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one gets > > tempted to conclude that > > there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans > > about. > > > > In the first case,from what angle did he argue? > > Personal, research/evidence- > > based or just theory? > > > > Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to > > abstain from sex at all! > > Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional AIDS > > Conference that was a > > total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on whether > > Abstinence is real or > > not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other side > > of the world (West) told > > me that he is married and does not believe in either > > Abstinence or Being > > Faithful. My simple question to him was as to > > whether or not he was running > > around with other women at the conference and in the > > city of Toronto because > > he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - a > > NO! So I said to him that > > he was practising Abstinence until he got back to > > his wife and have sex with > > her. In addition, I made him to understand that by > > doing so he was > > practising Being Faithful in marriage because he is > > bound by the vow he made > > on the wedding day that he will leave all other > > women and stay with his wife > > alone. > > > > Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue using > > this example of someone > > going to a university and failing to get his or her > > degree after trying to > > study very hard. Does the failure to get one's > > degree mean that nobody can > > earn that particular degree? It is not an issue of > > redefining morality. > > Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values that we > > have dropped without > > better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B we > > understand but let it be > > failure after trying. What meesage does our argument > > send out to children > > that would like to try A and later B? > > > > Talking of marketing condoms enough as a solution > > may mean that every body > > believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we should > > stop theorizing about ABC > > as an approach but be more practical and realistic > > by promoting every thing > > that helps to prevent further infection of HIV > > including proper marketing of > > Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. > > > > Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? Not > > at all!!!!!!! For us who > > have been on ground for years like my brother from > > Nigeria, have evidence > > that AB works because we have seen work for young > > people in Uganda, felt it > > and proved. If you have not implemented AB so that > > you prove beyond doubt > > that it does not work, for God's sake stop > > generalizing. It is misleading > > and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). > > > > For a long time, African cultural beliefs and > > practices have been under > > attack especially by the people from the west as all > > bad bad!!!!!! > > Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to > > blame HIV/AIDS on the > > African culture. Yes, there are dangerous cultural > > practices that help to > > spread the virus, but does that mean overshadowing > > the side of good values > > hence a campaign to change the African culture in > > order to address HIV/AIDS > > in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem must be > > addressed in the > > context of culture. What do we say about > > circumcision of men as a cultural > > practice considering that research is slowly > > providing evidence that > > circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV infection? > > All we needed from the > > start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to stop > > the practice, but to > > sensitize the participants of this practice to take > > precaution that the use > > of one knife to cut a number of boys and other > > related practices would put > > the young boys at a risk of getting HIV infection. > > We do not have the power > > to change culture when we what. The power lies with > > the people who own the > > culture. All that is needed is to work with them to > > prevent HIV infection. > > > > What I do not like is this thinking from the west > > that the more you are > > " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way of > > life and avoidance of > > diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the > > Karimojong - the most remote > > people in Uganda have low cases of HIV infection? > > One of the major factors > > is their strong culture that emphasizes certain > > norms and practices for > > everybody including their children - say the girls > > who are expected to keep > > their virginity until marriage. How do we deal with > > them on HIV? Ask them to > > drop their culture? > > > > Similarly, religion, morality and the like are part > > and parcel of African > > way of living. Let us cherish them and not try to > > kill and burry them > > without looking closely at the repurcussion of > > dropping the values that have > > brought us this far. > > > > > > Please take what makes sense and feel free to > > discard what appears to be > > silly. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Rev. Evatt M. Mugarura > > > > > > > > >From: Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> > > >Reply-AIDS treatments > > >AIDS treatments > > >Subject: Re: Redefining Morality > > >Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >I like your argument in this. let remind you of one > > >that religion has fail but one thing is like the > > >relationship between god and man. It is that man > > don't > > >understand God's purpose for his life. this is not > > >religion it is the truth. AIDS is not a problem it > > is > > >a symptom the problem is the broken relationship > > and > > >moral dacay > > > > > >--- yamanjanl <yamanjanl@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Redefining Morality > > > > > > > > This Day (Lagos) > > > > COLUMN > > > > September 10, 2006 > > > > Posted to the web September 11, 2006 > > > > > > > > By Rolanke Odetoyinbo > > > > Lagos > > > > > > > > At the last International AIDS Conference in > > > > Toronto, I was at a > > > > session where the issue of us redefining > > morality > > > > came up and the > > > > views in that room were so diverse it would have > > > > been comical if we > > > > weren't talking serious life and death issue > > like > > > > HIV infection and > > > > human lives. > > > > > > > > At some point I almost got confused as I started > > > > getting things mixed > > > > up and had to ask myself some core questions > > like > > > > does religion, > > > > culture and morality mean the same thing? Are > > these > > > > words > > > > interchangeable and can they be substituted when > > its > > > > convenient? I'm > > > > aware that there is a lot of clash between > > religion > > > > and culture and a > > > > lot of people have been accused of throwing away > > >=== message truncated === > > >__________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Behaviour is like a mirrow it reflect what is realy in us, At times our behaviours are determined because of habits that keeps on being motivated by the people around us. In behaviour their is no African and other races its more of sociatal and family driven. In the face of HIV & AIDS behaviours that are maladaptive i.e. motivate the spread of HIV among the human race should be addressed. Being a behaviour change communicator trainer, I beliave that our behaviours are ditaministic in nature though our socialization plays a major fact. We as community members their are two things that streach us a part one is the religion and the other is the society. Am looking forward for a positive responce for behavioralist action in influencing behaviours of personalities in the face of HIV & AIDS. Omondi Ouko Pandipieri Kisumu Kenya --- tom ochuka <tomochuka@...> wrote: > Biblicaly, > Sex is more mental than phisical ..Jesus said > looking > at awoman lastfully islike commiting sexwith > her,thisis to say circumcised or not. > With aidsits amtter of are we willing to change > from > inside us,morally then outwardly we shallbe ready to > fight the spread. > What doyou say Mathh?. > TOM OCHUKA. > > --- Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> wrote: > > > Thank you Rev Evatt. > > One thing I want to say again is that we african > > have > > become the victim of research. They are now doing > > research in Kisumu where I come from about the > > circumation this will not help us because wheather > > circumiced or not you will be infectioned if you > > have > > sex with the infection. It is a matter of behiour > > change and this research is making those who would > > have change behaviour to relax. Let face the truth > > it > > is not the circumcition but responble behaviour > > which > > is what africans value. > > > > > > --- Evatt Mugarura <emugarura@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are > > dealing > > > with are just symptoms > > > of a problem (s) we do not even know about. > > > Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one > > gets > > > tempted to conclude that > > > there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans > > > about. > > > > > > In the first case,from what angle did he argue? > > > Personal, research/evidence- > > > based or just theory? > > > > > > Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to > > > abstain from sex at all! > > > Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional > > AIDS > > > Conference that was a > > > total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on > > whether > > > Abstinence is real or > > > not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other > side > > > of the world (West) told > > > me that he is married and does not believe in > > either > > > Abstinence or Being > > > Faithful. My simple question to him was as to > > > whether or not he was running > > > around with other women at the conference and in > > the > > > city of Toronto because > > > he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - > a > > > NO! So I said to him that > > > he was practising Abstinence until he got back > to > > > his wife and have sex with > > > her. In addition, I made him to understand that > by > > > doing so he was > > > practising Being Faithful in marriage because he > > is > > > bound by the vow he made > > > on the wedding day that he will leave all other > > > women and stay with his wife > > > alone. > > > > > > Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue > > using > > > this example of someone > > > going to a university and failing to get his or > > her > > > degree after trying to > > > study very hard. Does the failure to get one's > > > degree mean that nobody can > > > earn that particular degree? It is not an issue > of > > > redefining morality. > > > Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values > that > > we > > > have dropped without > > > better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B > > we > > > understand but let it be > > > failure after trying. What meesage does our > > argument > > > send out to children > > > that would like to try A and later B? > > > > > > Talking of marketing condoms enough as a > solution > > > may mean that every body > > > believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we > should > > > stop theorizing about ABC > > > as an approach but be more practical and > realistic > > > by promoting every thing > > > that helps to prevent further infection of HIV > > > including proper marketing of > > > Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. > > > > > > Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? > > Not > > > at all!!!!!!! For us who > > > have been on ground for years like my brother > from > > > Nigeria, have evidence > > > that AB works because we have seen work for > young > > > people in Uganda, felt it > > > and proved. If you have not implemented AB so > that > > > you prove beyond doubt > > > that it does not work, for God's sake stop > > > generalizing. It is misleading > > > and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). > > > > > > For a long time, African cultural beliefs and > > > practices have been under > > > attack especially by the people from the west as > > all > > > bad bad!!!!!! > > > Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to > > > blame HIV/AIDS on the > > > African culture. Yes, there are dangerous > cultural > > > practices that help to > > > spread the virus, but does that mean > overshadowing > > > the side of good values > > > hence a campaign to change the African culture > in > > > order to address HIV/AIDS > > > in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem > must > > be > > > addressed in the > > > context of culture. What do we say about > > > circumcision of men as a cultural > > > practice considering that research is slowly > > > providing evidence that > > > circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV > infection? > > > All we needed from the > > > start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to > > stop > > > the practice, but to > > > sensitize the participants of this practice to > > take > > > precaution that the use > > > of one knife to cut a number of boys and other > > > related practices would put > > > the young boys at a risk of getting HIV > infection. > > > We do not have the power > > > to change culture when we what. The power lies > > with > > > the people who own the > > > culture. All that is needed is to work with them > > to > > > prevent HIV infection. > > > > > > What I do not like is this thinking from the > west > > > that the more you are > > > " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way > > of > > > life and avoidance of > > > diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the > > > Karimojong - the most remote > > > people in Uganda have low cases of HIV > infection? > > > One of the major factors > > > is their strong culture that emphasizes certain > > > norms and practices for > > > everybody including their children - say the > girls > > > who are expected to keep > > > their virginity until marriage. How do we deal > > with > > > them on HIV? Ask them to > > > drop their culture? > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Behaviour is like a mirrow it reflect what is realy in us, At times our behaviours are determined because of habits that keeps on being motivated by the people around us. In behaviour their is no African and other races its more of sociatal and family driven. In the face of HIV & AIDS behaviours that are maladaptive i.e. motivate the spread of HIV among the human race should be addressed. Being a behaviour change communicator trainer, I beliave that our behaviours are ditaministic in nature though our socialization plays a major fact. We as community members their are two things that streach us a part one is the religion and the other is the society. Am looking forward for a positive responce for behavioralist action in influencing behaviours of personalities in the face of HIV & AIDS. Omondi Ouko Pandipieri Kisumu Kenya --- tom ochuka <tomochuka@...> wrote: > Biblicaly, > Sex is more mental than phisical ..Jesus said > looking > at awoman lastfully islike commiting sexwith > her,thisis to say circumcised or not. > With aidsits amtter of are we willing to change > from > inside us,morally then outwardly we shallbe ready to > fight the spread. > What doyou say Mathh?. > TOM OCHUKA. > > --- Okeyo <matthewokeyo@...> wrote: > > > Thank you Rev Evatt. > > One thing I want to say again is that we african > > have > > become the victim of research. They are now doing > > research in Kisumu where I come from about the > > circumation this will not help us because wheather > > circumiced or not you will be infectioned if you > > have > > sex with the infection. It is a matter of behiour > > change and this research is making those who would > > have change behaviour to relax. Let face the truth > > it > > is not the circumcition but responble behaviour > > which > > is what africans value. > > > > > > --- Evatt Mugarura <emugarura@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > I totally agree with you Mathew. What we are > > dealing > > > with are just symptoms > > > of a problem (s) we do not even know about. > > > Reading my brother's article from Nigeria, one > > gets > > > tempted to conclude that > > > there is a lot to learn and sensitize Affricans > > > about. > > > > > > In the first case,from what angle did he argue? > > > Personal, research/evidence- > > > based or just theory? > > > > > > Abstinence does not stop at someone failing to > > > abstain from sex at all! > > > Recently while in Toronto at the Interantional > > AIDS > > > Conference that was a > > > total mess, I was engaged in a discussion on > > whether > > > Abstinence is real or > > > not. Fortunately the Gentleman from the other > side > > > of the world (West) told > > > me that he is married and does not believe in > > either > > > Abstinence or Being > > > Faithful. My simple question to him was as to > > > whether or not he was running > > > around with other women at the conference and in > > the > > > city of Toronto because > > > he can not Abstain from sex. His response was - > a > > > NO! So I said to him that > > > he was practising Abstinence until he got back > to > > > his wife and have sex with > > > her. In addition, I made him to understand that > by > > > doing so he was > > > practising Being Faithful in marriage because he > > is > > > bound by the vow he made > > > on the wedding day that he will leave all other > > > women and stay with his wife > > > alone. > > > > > > Brothers and sisters, let's look at this issue > > using > > > this example of someone > > > going to a university and failing to get his or > > her > > > degree after trying to > > > study very hard. Does the failure to get one's > > > degree mean that nobody can > > > earn that particular degree? It is not an issue > of > > > redefining morality. > > > Rather is an issue of emphasizing the values > that > > we > > > have dropped without > > > better alternatives.If one fails to do do A or B > > we > > > understand but let it be > > > failure after trying. What meesage does our > > argument > > > send out to children > > > that would like to try A and later B? > > > > > > Talking of marketing condoms enough as a > solution > > > may mean that every body > > > believes and uses condoms. Mine is that we > should > > > stop theorizing about ABC > > > as an approach but be more practical and > realistic > > > by promoting every thing > > > that helps to prevent further infection of HIV > > > including proper marketing of > > > Abstinence and Being Faith in marriage. > > > > > > Do we have eveidence that AB has really failed? > > Not > > > at all!!!!!!! For us who > > > have been on ground for years like my brother > from > > > Nigeria, have evidence > > > that AB works because we have seen work for > young > > > people in Uganda, felt it > > > and proved. If you have not implemented AB so > that > > > you prove beyond doubt > > > that it does not work, for God's sake stop > > > generalizing. It is misleading > > > and dangerous to us as a people (AFRICANS). > > > > > > For a long time, African cultural beliefs and > > > practices have been under > > > attack especially by the people from the west as > > all > > > bad bad!!!!!! > > > Everywhere in conferences it is not uncommon to > > > blame HIV/AIDS on the > > > African culture. Yes, there are dangerous > cultural > > > practices that help to > > > spread the virus, but does that mean > overshadowing > > > the side of good values > > > hence a campaign to change the African culture > in > > > order to address HIV/AIDS > > > in Africa? No! In any case, HIV/AIDS problem > must > > be > > > addressed in the > > > context of culture. What do we say about > > > circumcision of men as a cultural > > > practice considering that research is slowly > > > providing evidence that > > > circumcision of men helps to reduce HIV > infection? > > > All we needed from the > > > start, like we did in Uganda was not to try to > > stop > > > the practice, but to > > > sensitize the participants of this practice to > > take > > > precaution that the use > > > of one knife to cut a number of boys and other > > > related practices would put > > > the young boys at a risk of getting HIV > infection. > > > We do not have the power > > > to change culture when we what. The power lies > > with > > > the people who own the > > > culture. All that is needed is to work with them > > to > > > prevent HIV infection. > > > > > > What I do not like is this thinking from the > west > > > that the more you are > > > " modernized " therefore " cultured " the better way > > of > > > life and avoidance of > > > diseases including HIV/AIDS. What makes the > > > Karimojong - the most remote > > > people in Uganda have low cases of HIV > infection? > > > One of the major factors > > > is their strong culture that emphasizes certain > > > norms and practices for > > > everybody including their children - say the > girls > > > who are expected to keep > > > their virginity until marriage. How do we deal > > with > > > them on HIV? Ask them to > > > drop their culture? > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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