Re: High Copper

[Guest guest]

It is my understanding that high copper levels from hair analysis could

be a reflection of highly chlorinated water from swimming pools. My

son's hair copper levels are very high but he swims once a week, year

round, in a highly chlorinated pool.

Ann Briggin

AndyCutler@... wrote:

>

> << I don't think that high copper

> hair levels indicate a copper problem unless that is all that is elevated. >>

>

> I disagree. If things are scattered it might or might not indicate a copper

> problem - if it was my kid I would check something else. If urine or RBC

> copper was normal I would ignore the hair result.

>

> Andy Cutler

>

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[Guest guest]

Our eye doctor told us that our son missed one piece of the developmental

maturation, so he uses other muscles to focus than the ones he should.

Since they do not have the ability to hold their focus for very long,

eventually the muscles tire, and his vision becomes blurry. Any idea if

mercury could affect this, or detox make it better?

Barb

Re: [ ] High Copper

>In a message dated 7/21/00 12:45:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AndyCutler

>writes:

>

><< What kind of eye doctor? >>

>

>We have seen an ophthalmologist, and a behavioral optometrist in the past,

>the ophthalmologist tested for different types of nystagmus and found

>nothing. That doctor did look at the optic nerve and told us that whatever

>caused her disorder had spared the optic nerve. The doctor we just saw who

>did an eeg said that the relative frequencies observed for the nodes

>representing eye function versus other parts of the brain showed that

> " nystagmus like " activity may be occurring. Her personal theory was that a

>piece of information needed for visual processing may be missing, which may

>underlie her difficulties with eye contact, and that this may be a direct

>result of mercury poisoning. Our conversation regarding spikes in the

>occipital lobes leads me to suspect that there may actually be a short

>circuit somewhere that relates to a portion of her visual processing. This

>is all very vague, but I think the technology used here is bound to be

useful

>in helping people once they get the mercury out.

>

>Joe Marciano

>

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/21/00 2:19:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

paultradi@... writes:

<< did you ever try cod liver oil as a supplement for vit

A

as per mary megson's ideas (www.megson.com)

we did and got much better direct eye contact, no

longer watches tv from corner of the eyes etc >>

No, we haven't tried that yet, but we have used beta carotene + vit C & E

supplements in the past. I will keep your recommendation in mind when we try

to augment her supplements again. For now, we are getting notable

improvements with the lipoic acid and dmsa (25 mg every 3.5 +/-.5 hours), and

want to see if we will be able to report this conclusively in 2 months or so.

It was a very busy weekend and this was our down time after doing the

treatment for 44 doses or 5.5 days this time. There were significant sleep

disturbances this time around and noted " mild " regression at times, like

squealing and shaking as well as behavioral things like covering her head, or

not wanting to get out of the car. Although some of the tantrums are hard to

call mild, they have been short in duration. We think that we do see the

day-after symptoms that Andy had described, so I can see the benefits of

extending the chelation periods to reduce these " after " periods. We made it

3.5 hours +/- .5, in order to allow ourselves to make the treatment fit her

day better, and I hope this will not hurt her in the long run, but we just

needed a little flexibility. We did not exceed 3.75 hours this time around,

and in fact, she has often taken 20 minutes to finish a drink with the mix in

it. This has worked out to 7 rather than 8 doses per day, so the total

quantity was reduced from 200 mg per day to 175 mg of lipoic acid and dmsa.

When her camp ends in 3 weeks, we may try to do every 3 hours for the balance

of August. So far we have done 2.75 days on, 2.75 days off, 4.25 days on,

3.5 days off, and 5.5 days on. This is our third day off, and we may decide

to start again tomorrow, perhaps stepping up to 7 days on next time. The

days off are nice, and we may extend them; so far we have tried to react to

her, and start again, when the after effects appear to have leveled off.

Joe Marciano

[Guest guest]

Hi Val,

We did not really do anything about copper, other than be aware of it. We

did do blood and urine tests for metals at the same time as the hair analysis

which did not show copper or any other metals to be elevated, and we took to

mean that there is no current exposures. We really do not know why copper

was so high in her hair, but her whole profile was disordered with highs and

lows, and this is associated by people on this list with mercury toxicity,

which has been our focus.

We really are not performing any tests during chelation, and are focusing on

our " clinical " observation to tailor her treatment protocol. " Treat the

patient not the poison " , is our mantra, that we keep coming back to.

Our daughter does not have amalgam fillings, which contain copper, and it

appeared to us that (if the test which we did not repeat was accurate) copper

was likely elevated in the hair due to liver function abnormalities (Phase 1

& 2). The pool idea or even shampoos effects would seem to be important, but

we did not pursue this.

Some things that I encountered in my research were the ideas that lab tests

are only done to confirm or rule out a 'clinical' diagnosis and that to be

considered 'accurate and informative' specific tests would need to be

repeated (perhaps even by different labs) to be valid. This is one reason

why as an engineer, I had to back off from my early inclination to run tests

to find the cause of my daughter's disability, and as a parent, I have to shy

away from the many 'documented cures' and 'medline verified' deep

understandings of human metabolism. In short, I think that the research is

littered with self fulfilling prophecies. I think that this realization is

actually a good thing, as it forces people to develop their own ideas, and to

work with other people to develop a concept. At this point, I would say that

if you have known thimerosal exposure (make a timeline), and symptoms of

autism / mercury poisoning (see the paper), then you should get professional

medical evaluations to know your child's profile and concerns (seizures,

metabolic disorders, ...) and proceed with caution.

We had used small amounts of a copper supplement from time to time prior to

the hair test as well as a zinc picolinate supplement that also contained

copper. Our doctor recommended that we stop the copper supplement and we

did. We also use a phase 1 and 2 liver detox from Tyler, which contains 35%

of the recommended daily value of copper. We now use filtered water which

should remove copper, but being that copper is considered a nutrient that can

reach toxic levels, we have not tried to eliminate it such as by removing

things like grapes or broccoli. Our hair test came back with a list of foods

to be avoided or sought out for various reasons, including high copper

results, and some were contradictory.

Regarding our chelation efforts, we have given her some time off after 6 of

the 3 hour chelation cycles with lipoic acid and captomer (DMSA) that varied

from 2 to 7 days in length. We began this protocol in July, and have seen

many changes. We think at this point that the treatment is working, and that

some deep level recognition is occurring, but it is really to early to report

this definitively.

Good luck,

Joe Marciano

[Guest guest]

My son always had high copper on his hair analysis. One of the

consultant I was working with said it wasn't just the high copper but

the copper to zinc ratio that is the problem (high copper to low zinc)

We started supplimenting zinc. This person believed that this ration

pattern is fairly consistent in autism. I have read something to this

effect but don't

remember where. Don't know what this is worth in the light of the

mercury poisioning.

> Dear Listmates,

> I just got the results from my youngest sons elemental analysis

(packed

> erythrocytes). The toxic elements were low, which I expected since

this is a

> blood test, but his copper was high. He had a result of 0.82 with

reference

> of 0.48-0.74. He was also very low on zinc, and low on selenium and

> potassium.

>

> I'm trying to figure out to how this may connect to his regression

that

> started over a month ago. He has become very combative during

speech therapy

> sessions, but craves deep pressure all the time and does'nt want to

stop his

> OT seesions. His appetite has decreased, and he is very irriatable.

All of

> this happened about a week before his first secretin infusion. We

didn't

> know what was going on, had his ears checked and they were fine,

and we

> had'nt changed any supplements or made any dietary changes. After

his

> infusion he seems a little more aware, and has added a new word to

his

> vocabulary - " up! " Now he has about 3 words.

>

> Since getting these test results this afternoon I've been searching

the

> archives and have read a little about copper poisoning. I've also

read a

> little about s Disease, and how the overloaded tissues can

dump a

> bunch of copper into the bloodstream.

>

> I'd appreciate any insights on this.

> Many thanks,

> Sylvia

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

,

The weird thing is that his hair analysis done in April showed border line

low. It was a 10, with a normal being 9-23. His blood test done earlier this

month showed above normal levels. We just started chelation with DMSA

yesterday, and before that we did four short rounds over the summer with a

very low dose of DMSA. I've also supplemented with zinc for over a year.

Have you tested for copper using blood or urine?

Thanks,

Sylvia

>From: " " <HMH95@...>

>Reply- egroups

> egroups

>Subject: [ ] Re: High Copper

>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:18:51 -0000

>

>My son always had high copper on his hair analysis. One of the

>consultant I was working with said it wasn't just the high copper but

>the copper to zinc ratio that is the problem (high copper to low zinc)

>We started supplimenting zinc. This person believed that this ration

>pattern is fairly consistent in autism. I have read something to this

>effect but don't

>remember where. Don't know what this is worth in the light of the

>mercury poisioning.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > Dear Listmates,

> > I just got the results from my youngest sons elemental analysis

>(packed

> > erythrocytes). The toxic elements were low, which I expected since

>this is a

> > blood test, but his copper was high. He had a result of 0.82 with

>reference

> > of 0.48-0.74. He was also very low on zinc, and low on selenium and

> > potassium.

> >

> > I'm trying to figure out to how this may connect to his regression

>that

> > started over a month ago. He has become very combative during

>speech therapy

> > sessions, but craves deep pressure all the time and does'nt want to

>stop his

> > OT seesions. His appetite has decreased, and he is very irriatable.

>All of

> > this happened about a week before his first secretin infusion. We

>didn't

> > know what was going on, had his ears checked and they were fine,

>and we

> > had'nt changed any supplements or made any dietary changes. After

>his

> > infusion he seems a little more aware, and has added a new word to

>his

> > vocabulary - " up! " Now he has about 3 words.

> >

> > Since getting these test results this afternoon I've been searching

>the

> > archives and have read a little about copper poisoning. I've also

>read a

> > little about s Disease, and how the overloaded tissues can

>dump a

> > bunch of copper into the bloodstream.

> >

> > I'd appreciate any insights on this.

> > Many thanks,

> > Sylvia

> >

> >

> >

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[Guest guest]

Sylvia, Copper is very neuro toxic. Do you have copper pipes? If so

check your water. My kids had borderline copper and elevated tin,

mercury showed up on the heavy metal challenge. Low zinc goes along

with mercury toxicity. Mercury is tightly bound and will often not

show up on blood tests. Did you do a urine challenge yet? I too

researched copper and didn't find alot. There is some discussion in

the epa sites and as you already know with 's disease. My kids

had alot of the sensory problems you discribe. Beverly

> Dear Listmates,

> I just got the results from my youngest sons elemental analysis

(packed

> erythrocytes). The toxic elements were low, which I expected since

this is a

> blood test, but his copper was high. He had a result of 0.82 with

reference

> of 0.48-0.74. He was also very low on zinc, and low on selenium and

> potassium.

>

> I'm trying to figure out to how this may connect to his regression

that

> started over a month ago. He has become very combative during

speech therapy

> sessions, but craves deep pressure all the time and does'nt want to

stop his

> OT seesions. His appetite has decreased, and he is very irriatable.

All of

> this happened about a week before his first secretin infusion. We

didn't

> know what was going on, had his ears checked and they were fine,

and we

> had'nt changed any supplements or made any dietary changes. After

his

> infusion he seems a little more aware, and has added a new word to

his

> vocabulary - " up! " Now he has about 3 words.

>

> Since getting these test results this afternoon I've been searching

the

> archives and have read a little about copper poisoning. I've also

read a

> little about s Disease, and how the overloaded tissues can

dump a

> bunch of copper into the bloodstream.

>

> I'd appreciate any insights on this.

> Many thanks,

> Sylvia

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

___

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Beverly, I think I will have our water tested. He doesn't take any

supplement with copper in it, but he does drink soy milk that has some. I'm

wondering about his hair test in April being low in copper, then his blood

test showing high this month. He had a regression about a month ago, and I'm

wondering if this is any way connected to being unable to get rid of copper?

His doc is back tomorrow, so I'll post if he gives me any insights.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Sylvia

>From: " Beverly " <Flick2Bev@...>

>Reply- egroups

> egroups

>Subject: [ ] Re: High Copper

>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 02:24:19 -0000

>

>Sylvia, Copper is very neuro toxic. Do you have copper pipes? If so

>check your water. My kids had borderline copper and elevated tin,

>mercury showed up on the heavy metal challenge. Low zinc goes along

>with mercury toxicity. Mercury is tightly bound and will often not

>show up on blood tests. Did you do a urine challenge yet? I too

>researched copper and didn't find alot. There is some discussion in

>the epa sites and as you already know with 's disease. My kids

>had alot of the sensory problems you discribe. Beverly

>

> > Dear Listmates,

> > I just got the results from my youngest sons elemental analysis

>(packed

> > erythrocytes). The toxic elements were low, which I expected since

>this is a

> > blood test, but his copper was high. He had a result of 0.82 with

>reference

> > of 0.48-0.74. He was also very low on zinc, and low on selenium and

> > potassium.

> >

> > I'm trying to figure out to how this may connect to his regression

>that

> > started over a month ago. He has become very combative during

>speech therapy

> > sessions, but craves deep pressure all the time and does'nt want to

>stop his

> > OT seesions. His appetite has decreased, and he is very irriatable.

>All of

> > this happened about a week before his first secretin infusion. We

>didn't

> > know what was going on, had his ears checked and they were fine,

>and we

> > had'nt changed any supplements or made any dietary changes. After

>his

> > infusion he seems a little more aware, and has added a new word to

>his

> > vocabulary - " up! " Now he has about 3 words.

> >

> > Since getting these test results this afternoon I've been searching

>the

> > archives and have read a little about copper poisoning. I've also

>read a

> > little about s Disease, and how the overloaded tissues can

>dump a

> > bunch of copper into the bloodstream.

> >

> > I'd appreciate any insights on this.

> > Many thanks,

> > Sylvia

> >

> >

> >

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> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>http://www.hotmail.com.

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>

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/19/00 4:12:34 PM, sylviapimentel@... writes:

<< Thanks Beverly, I think I will have our water tested. He doesn't take any

supplement with copper in it, but he does drink soy milk that has some. I'm

wondering about his hair test in April being low in copper, then his blood

test showing high this month. He had a regression about a month ago, and I'm

wondering if this is any way connected to being unable to get rid of copper?

His doc is back tomorrow, so I'll post if he gives me any insights.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Sylvia >>

Hi Syliva,

DJ had high copper on the same blood test but the weird this is that his zinc

and magnesium were within normal limits. No mercury. I've been

supplementing with plenty of zinc and magnesium during his off days.

We see Dr. Boris tomorrow to discuss the change in protocol. DJ currently

takes 100mg Chemet every 4 hours for 7 days on and 7 days off. He wants to

change to 300mg every 8 hours for 3 days on and 4 days off. So far DJ has b

een okay but we haven't noticed anything significant but there have been

subtle changes.

His 24 hour urine during the first " on " week between the 6th and 7th day did

show lots of lead and a little mercury so maybe we're on to something. I'm

hoping for the best as DJ is already 11 years old.

[Guest guest]

Our son showed very low copper (6.4 on range 8-16) and okay zinc

(140 on range 100-190) in DD hair test, in order to rule out 's

we did some bloodwork which showed HIGH copper 25.5umol/l (range

11-22) and HIGH zinc 19.7 umol/l (range9.8-16.8).

Thought if copper is high zinc is normally low ?

Like Sylvia a little confused hair copper so low when plasma high, we

also dont supplement with anything containing copper.

Is the blood copper level too high to start chelation ?

How do we get the copper down ?

rgds

paul

> > > Dear Listmates,

> > > I just got the results from my youngest sons elemental analysis

> >(packed

> > > erythrocytes). The toxic elements were low, which I expected

since

> >this is a

> > > blood test, but his copper was high. He had a result of 0.82

with

> >reference

> > > of 0.48-0.74. He was also very low on zinc, and low on selenium

and

> > > potassium.

> > >

> > > I'm trying to figure out to how this may connect to his

regression

> >that

> > > started over a month ago. He has become very combative during

> >speech therapy

> > > sessions, but craves deep pressure all the time and does'nt

want

to

> >stop his

> > > OT seesions. His appetite has decreased, and he is very

irriatable.

> >All of

> > > this happened about a week before his first secretin infusion.

We

> >didn't

> > > know what was going on, had his ears checked and they were fine,

> >and we

> > > had'nt changed any supplements or made any dietary changes.

After

> >his

> > > infusion he seems a little more aware, and has added a new word

to

> >his

> > > vocabulary - " up! " Now he has about 3 words.

> > >

> > > Since getting these test results this afternoon I've been

searching

> >the

> > > archives and have read a little about copper poisoning. I've

also

> >read a

> > > little about s Disease, and how the overloaded tissues can

> >dump a

> > > bunch of copper into the bloodstream.

> > >

> > > I'd appreciate any insights on this.

> > > Many thanks,

> > > Sylvia