Re: High Copper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/19/2000 10:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

FionaYoung@... writes:

<< One thing I wanted to throw out was the

statement someone made about high copper levels having similar

behavioral effects as high mercury. My son had very high copper

levels that we are treating with zinc. Can anyone add to what we are

doing for his copper levels? He is swimming alot this summer and I

recently heard that swimmng pools can increase copper levels although

I can't find any info. on this. Anyone?

Thank you in advance,

Fiona >>

I am also using zinc for the copper. Also watch the diet: nuts, shellfish,

lentils, soybeans, tofu, beans, organ meats. Some pool chemicals contain

copper. Check your labels. Check your drinking water. Also check any

supplements you are using.

Goodluck. Carole

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/19/00 11:33:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Lulu1958@... writes:

<< He is swimming a lot this summer and I

recently heard that swimming pools can increase copper levels although

I can't find any info. on this. >>

Yes, great smokies told us that this might be a reason for very elevated

copper readings. Copper is a tough one. I know that Andy has written on the

subject of copper tox having similar symptoms as mercury tox (not to put

words in his mouth, but I think this is accurate), and my feeling is that

there is probably no simple statement that will make it all go away easily

because I do believe that this is a legitimate problem which we understand

very little about.

Here is what I understand. #1 copper is listed as a nutrient, and not a

toxic metal on the tests which we have done. When out of balance, it is

considered to be a toxic substance. When we did the Great Smokies hair

analysis, copper was extremely elevated. In fact it came back with the note

that this might be due to her swimming in a pool with copper sulfate water

treatment added. We still have it on our list to try to verify what

chemicals her camp used in its swimming pool last year. Just prior to this,

I had happened to read in an article, about the huge quantity of copper from

water piping which winds up being dumped into the harbor here in New York

every year from sewage treatment plants as

" clean " effluent. Next I happened to survey a regional mall in Ohio where

they were using copper sulfate in huge quantities as an algaecide in their

decorative (aerated) storm water retention ponds. The coastline of these

ponds was barren, and my immediate response as a quasi-environmental engineer

was, what makes you think that this is safe? The answer was that the state

of Ohio sanctions and apparently recommends the use of copper sulfate for

this purpose. I looked at the individual who was telling me this and

realized that he was wearing all sorts of copper jewelry. He went on to

explain that everyone in his family did, and that it warded off terrible

illness like arthritis.

I returned to New York very unsettled about copper sulfate, and copper

products in general most of which I specify or recommend from wiring to water

piping which have been preoccupying me for the last year. For example the

south Florida building code would prohibit copper piping being used in sulfur

containing soils, because of corrosion problems which are like the oxidation

of other metals like iron (rust), and lead to failure. Sorry to ramble about

engineering things, but I did some research, and copper sulfate has been used

since Roman times as a herbicide by the army, so it appears to be at least a

double edged sword. Copper is a conductor of electrical charge like mercury.

It is used in amalgams also I believe, and it is used throughout the built

environment, usually with architectural and engineering blessing.

I think that if you have copper toxicity, it must indicate a processing

problem, or like thimerosal an overdose in some form. I wonder how people

who have copper tox are thought to get it? Is it all absorbed through the

gut? Is it just the overuse of copper in the built environment? Should I

not recommend copper piping, which by the way is soldered today with 95/5

tin/antimony (lead free) solder for drinking water? I did also read recently

in an old text (1975) that the process of producing chlorine which uses

mercury electrodes guarantees the ubiquitous presence of mercury in all

manufactured chlorine products like PVC piping. It's becoming hard to find a

place on the periodic table to rest. If I did find such a place to rest I am

sure that it would be a temporary ignorance.

My feeling is that we need to focus on mercury for our daughter. The other

kids had similar copper exposure, but did not have the frequency of

thimerosal vaccination. That was the original reason we suspected the

vaccinations 5 years ago. It would be to hard to battle on too many fronts

of the periodic table.

Joe Marciano

[Guest guest]

<< I wonder how people who have copper tox are thought to get it? >>

They have a problem where they don't excrete enough of it via their bile.

This may be due to a defect in getting it into the bile, or due to generally

reduced bile flow.

Andy Cutler

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/20/2000 1:20:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CentreAv2C@... writes:

<<

My feeling is that we need to focus on mercury for our daughter. The other

kids had similar copper exposure, but did not have the frequency of

thimerosal vaccination. That was the original reason we suspected the

vaccinations 5 years ago. It would be to hard to battle on too many fronts

of the periodic table.

Joe Marciano

>>

Thanks for the informative post. My son does have very high copper levels and

we live in Ohio. We battle that along with mercury and lead. Carole

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/20/2000 1:20:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CentreAv2C@... writes:

<< My feeling is that we need to focus on mercury for our daughter. The

other

kids had similar copper exposure, but did not have the frequency of

thimerosal vaccination. That was the original reason we suspected the

vaccinations 5 years ago. It would be to hard to battle on too many fronts

of the periodic table.

Joe Marciano

>>

Joe,

This was all very interesting...but I have a question now. Did you treat

your daughter with high levels of zinc to balance the zinc/copper ratio? Do

you use Alpha Lipoic Acid with her? Any reactions if you did?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/20/2000 2:23:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

AndyCutler@... writes:

<< << I wonder how people who have copper tox are thought to get it? >>

They have a problem where they don't excrete enough of it via their bile.

This may be due to a defect in getting it into the bile, or due to

generally

reduced bile flow.

Andy Cutler

>>

Is there a specific way to rectify this?

[Guest guest]

What would secretin administration during this protocol do? Since our kids

are famously depleted in bile, how are we going to support that?

Kathy

Re: [ ] High Copper

><< I wonder how people who have copper tox are thought to get it? >>

>

>They have a problem where they don't excrete enough of it via their bile.

>This may be due to a defect in getting it into the bile, or due to

generally

>reduced bile flow.

>

>Andy Cutler

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

>1/7078/9/_/705339/_/964074118/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Andy -

So what causes reduced bile flow?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/19/00 11:23:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

AndyCutler@... writes:

<< << I wonder how people who have copper tox are thought to get it? >>

They have a problem where they don't excrete enough of it via their bile.

This may be due to a defect in getting it into the bile, or due to

generally

reduced bile flow.

Andy Cutler

>>

Andy,

Is there any research as to copper being displace by....say mercury? Seems

logical if we have copper toxicity (via blood/ hair testing) and similar

symptoms?

Can it possibly mean high excretion.? Perhaps mercury is binding to the

copper receptor sites?

Vicki

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/20/00 4:33:05 AM, fullarmor@... writes:

<< << << I wonder how people who have copper tox are thought to get it? >>

They have a problem where they don't excrete enough of it via their bile.

This may be due to a defect in getting it into the bile, or due to

generally

reduced bile flow.

Andy Cutler

>>

Is there a specific way to rectify this?

>>

The nutritional supplements taurine, glycine and milk thistle extract (also

called silymarin) increase bile flow.

B vitamins and C and E help protect the liver from stress so it can make more

bile.

Zinc and molybdenum help prevent copper absorption.

Andy Cutler

[Guest guest]

According to Kenny's hair analysis, he also has very high copper. However, we

have found that zinc really hypes him up, and can't give him a whole lot of it.

Is it possible that the reason the zinc hypes him up is that it is pulling the

copper out of him?

(Cary, NC)

persistentC@...

[Guest guest]

<< So what causes reduced bile flow? >>

I don't know. Aside from gallstones which your kids likely don't have.

Low levels of the amino acids taurine and glycine will do it.

Andy

[Guest guest]

What dosages are we estimating for these supplements?

>

> The nutritional supplements taurine, glycine and milk thistle extract

(also

> called silymarin) increase bile flow.

>

> B vitamins and C and E help protect the liver from stress so it can make

more

> bile.

>

> Zinc and molybdenum help prevent copper absorption.

>

thanks,

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Andy,

What role would not having a gallbladder have in this? I had mine taken out

and have high copper. Just curious.

Marilyn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/20/00 6:02:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MEFink@...

writes:

<< Andy,

What role would not having a gallbladder have in this? I had mine taken out

and have high copper. Just curious.

Marilyn

>>

Marilyn,

If, in fact, the use of bile is needed to detoxify copper, and you had your

gallbladder removed...then it would make sense that you'd have high copper.

The gallbladder produces bile, but you can take a supplement that may help--

ox bile.

Vicki

[Guest guest]

<< What role would not having a gallbladder have in this? I had mine taken

out

and have high copper. Just curious. >>

Any number of things could be going on. The gall blader does regulate the

flow of bile so without one you might be having trouble handling what the

liver makes and the liver might have turned that down.

Or cutting out a part of you that the MD's don't understand the importance of

might have more consequences than the MD's think.

Andy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/20/00 10:21:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fancy@...

writes:

<< My understanding is that high copper can mimic high mercury and it should

surely

be done together or, at least, a little bit of this and a little bit of that

to

allow the body to achieve the best results. i think focussing completely on

one

area or problem is what prolongs our kids (and our) suffering. Just as the

synergistic effects of all the harmful assaults on our kids sometimes has

extreme detrimental effects, I believe the removal or treatments using

several

modalities will have a synergistic benefit - I just wish I could prove it.

>>

I don't disagree with you, but I think that you would be much more potent in

your treatment if you can achieve a focus. I think that I remmember in a

post quite awhile ago, that if your hair test was high in copper and not much

else, you might likely have copper tox. Also you would be a candidate for

mercury tox if several nutrients and minerals were out of balance (as per the

counting rules). Andy is this close to accurate from your experience?

Joe Marciano

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/20/00 7:29:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

fullarmor@... writes:

<< This was all very interesting...but I have a question now. Did you treat

your daughter with high levels of zinc to balance the zinc/copper ratio?

No, not for that reason, but we had no reason then or now to suspect that

copper is high in her as I understand it. We had actually used zinc

supplements at times in the form of zinc picolinate. Our reason was a rash

around her mouth that came and went. At first the doctor told us that she

must drool. When we assured him that she did not, he refered us to a

dermatologist, who told us that if our daughter was a mature woman this

periaural dermatitis might be a result of zinc deficiency. Although he

thought this was unlikely, he had no other explanation, and he recommended

that we try some zinc supplements and see if it went away. It pretty much

did, but it would be hard to associate this as a cause and effect

relatioonship since we did many things over this period of time. Our zinc

picolinate actually contains copper as well. I don't think that high copper

hair levels indicate a copper problem unless that is all that is elevated.

Also, the list of copper containing foods to avoid was pretty long, I think

from chocolate to grapes. The great smokies test also tended to recommend a

food on one page, and then recommend against it on the next.

<< Did you use Alpha Lipoic Acid with her? Any reactions if you did? >>

Yes, we are using it now on a continuous 3 - 4 hour basis along with DMSA (25

mg of each in a drink mix). We actually tried it several times prior to this

to see if there would be any negative reaction, and there was no observed

physical reaction. We began this protocol on July 2nd. We believe that we

are seeing several noteable things which I have mentioned in previous posts,

but this is really to early to make any claims. Our experience is similar to

Jenifer's who wrote yesterday (see -on cloud 9, which was by the way great to

read). There has been some fleeting mild regression. Lining things up, poor

eye contact at times, squeeling noises, ... and some angry tantrums.

But she is also showing some generative language. Good performance on

phonics work. At camp they said she was more interactive in playing frisbee

today. Little things may be coming in good. I actually think that she may

be making some jokes, regarding to animal names which she tends to talk alot

about. She mixes animals which may come from watching catdog on television.

We are getting references to things like monkeycow! Again it is too early to

tell, but she may one day usher in the reemergence of vaudeville!

As we are now 4 days into our third lipoic acid treatment, we are trying to

decide when to stop and take a break. This time, we really don't have any

fears of regression, just practical considerations. Our religious every 3

hour approach the first 2 times has become a more enforceable 3.5 +/- .5

hours, which is 7 doses per day, and works better with her camp. They are

quite happy to administer our premixed drink at the appropriate time. It is

a special needs camp, and I think that a number of kids get medications

routinely.

A doctor whom I met with tonight said that people she had known who either

had amalgam illness or industrial exposure when treated with DMSA only

benefited from several days on and several days off. To me this is like you

have to collect your chips and go to another table to bet. Staying on for a

long period was thought to lead to smaller marginal gains per quantity of

chelator given in the long run. Any opinions?

The doctor (with whom we may do alergy testing and / or bioneurofeedback in

the fall) is our second opinion on chelation. She told us tonight that

given everything she sees and understands regarding our daughter's tests and

clinical picture, she does not consider her autistic, but has listed her

diagnosis as mercury poisoned, and having vaccine induced encephalitis. The

encephalitis is not really accurate as far as I can tell since MRI's were

unremarkable (other than she had sinusitis), but it is the closest diagnosis

code in the " oxford " dictionary. This doctor had done an eeg for the purpose

of generating a brain map to do bioneurofeedback, and feels that the lack of

certain patterns which she says are missing, show an overall brain disorder

that is consistent with mercury poisoning. Again spikes in the ocipital

lobes, and problems with the eyes that she thinks can be loosely associated

with " missing data " and possibly a nystagmus which was at a frequency to high

to be noted in optical exams. We are trying to consider this. By the way,

she felt compfortable with our continuuing the DMSA / lipoic acid treatments.

I gave her a copy of the counting rules from great smokies, which she

acknowledged, but would like us to do a 6 hour collection urine test both

before and during our next chelation tound in order to get some data. We are

considering this.

Joe Marciano

[Guest guest]

<< I don't think that high copper

hair levels indicate a copper problem unless that is all that is elevated. >>

I disagree. If things are scattered it might or might not indicate a copper

problem - if it was my kid I would check something else. If urine or RBC

copper was normal I would ignore the hair result.

Andy Cutler

[Guest guest]

<< The great smokies test also tended to recommend a

food on one page, and then recommend against it on the next. >>

Hey! They're sure to be right! It is only foolish people like you and me

who bother to believe in one thing and say only it at the risk of being

proven wrong!

I would obviously suggest ignoring all the suggestions in reports where any

significant fraction of them are mutually contradictory.

Andy ;-)

[Guest guest]

My understanding is that high copper can mimic high mercury and it should surely

be done together or, at least, a little bit of this and a little bit of that to

allow the body to achieve the best results. i think focussing completely on one

area or problem is what prolongs our kids (and our) suffering. Just as the

synergistic effects of all the harmful assaults on our kids sometimes has

extreme detrimental effects, I believe the removal or treatments using several

modalities will have a synergistic benefit - I just wish I could prove it. Much

love, Ken

fullarmor@... wrote:

> In a message dated 07/20/2000 1:20:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> CentreAv2C@... writes:

>

> << My feeling is that we need to focus on mercury for our daughter. The

> other

> kids had similar copper exposure, but did not have the frequency of

> thimerosal vaccination. That was the original reason we suspected the

> vaccinations 5 years ago. It would be to hard to battle on too many fronts

> of the periodic table.

>

> Joe Marciano

> >>

> Joe,

> This was all very interesting...but I have a question now. Did you treat

> your daughter with high levels of zinc to balance the zinc/copper ratio? Do

> you use Alpha Lipoic Acid with her? Any reactions if you did?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/21/2000 12:08:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

CentreAv2C@... writes:

<< he doctor (with whom we may do alergy testing and / or bioneurofeedback in

the fall) is our second opinion on chelation. She told us tonight that

given everything she sees and understands regarding our daughter's tests and

clinical picture, she does not consider her autistic, but has listed her

diagnosis as mercury poisoned, and having vaccine induced encephalitis. The

encephalitis is not really accurate as far as I can tell since MRI's were

unremarkable (other than she had sinusitis), but it is the closest diagnosis

code in the " oxford " dictionary. This doctor had done an eeg for the purpose

>>

Wow...how rare to have ANY doctor tell you it's mercury poisoning/vaccine

induced encephalitis!!!! My son has all the classic symptoms of both. The

ped immunologist told us that " Out of all the stories I've heard from parents

of autistic children that might link vaccines to autism...YOURS is the MOST

convincing...but the theory is not proven. " I wanted to throw him out the

window (roughly 5 stories up). Of course it was convincing...a child doesn't

scream and regress for 7 months for nothing!

Thanks for all your information!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/21/00 12:45:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AndyCutler

writes:

<< What kind of eye doctor? >>

We have seen an ophthalmologist, and a behavioral optometrist in the past,

the ophthalmologist tested for different types of nystagmus and found

nothing. That doctor did look at the optic nerve and told us that whatever

caused her disorder had spared the optic nerve. The doctor we just saw who

did an eeg said that the relative frequencies observed for the nodes

representing eye function versus other parts of the brain showed that

" nystagmus like " activity may be occurring. Her personal theory was that a

piece of information needed for visual processing may be missing, which may

underlie her difficulties with eye contact, and that this may be a direct

result of mercury poisoning. Our conversation regarding spikes in the

occipital lobes leads me to suspect that there may actually be a short

circuit somewhere that relates to a portion of her visual processing. This

is all very vague, but I think the technology used here is bound to be useful

in helping people once they get the mercury out.

Joe Marciano

[Guest guest]

Joe

did you ever try cod liver oil as a supplement for vit

A

as per mary megson's ideas (www.megson.com)

we did and got much better direct eye contact, no

longer watches tv from corner of the eyes etc

rgds

paul

--- CentreAv2C@... wrote:

> In a message dated 7/21/00 12:45:57 AM Eastern

> Daylight Time, AndyCutler

> writes:

>

> << What kind of eye doctor? >>

>

> We have seen an ophthalmologist, and a behavioral

> optometrist in the past,

> the ophthalmologist tested for different types of

> nystagmus and found

> nothing. That doctor did look at the optic nerve

> and told us that whatever

> caused her disorder had spared the optic nerve. The

> doctor we just saw who

> did an eeg said that the relative frequencies

> observed for the nodes

> representing eye function versus other parts of the

> brain showed that

> " nystagmus like " activity may be occurring. Her

> personal theory was that a

> piece of information needed for visual processing

> may be missing, which may

> underlie her difficulties with eye contact, and that

> this may be a direct

> result of mercury poisoning. Our conversation

> regarding spikes in the

> occipital lobes leads me to suspect that there may

> actually be a short

> circuit somewhere that relates to a portion of her

> visual processing. This

> is all very vague, but I think the technology used

> here is bound to be useful

> in helping people once they get the mercury out.

>

> Joe Marciano

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

<< It is my understanding that high copper levels from hair analysis could

be a reflection of highly chlorinated water from swimming pools. My

son's hair copper levels are very high but he swims once a week, year

round, in a highly chlorinated pool. >>

Might be. If you are concerned then that just means you should check

something else, like urine or red blood cell copper.

Andy