Re: Refusers on the Theodore Roosevelt

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/25/99 2:04:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, lancastr@...

writes:

<< I did talk to a JAG Officer in Washington DC that said the captain had

every right to punish them again. He compared it to the fact that " If they

were told to get a haircut, and they didn't get their hair cut, they would be

punished. Then a month later they were told to get a haircut, and they

didn't, they could be punished once again " . >>

The military doesn't really understand the concept of double jeopardy or why

it is unjust. Asking a JAG officer about whether something the military does

is just or not, is like asking a priest whether or not the church's stand on

this or that issue is virtuous.

[Guest guest]

To ,

Very interesting. My son was one of the 27 Marines in Okinawa that

refused the vaccine and he has received the same punishment twice. The

first time he refused he didn't reduce rank because he was up for promotion

so he just wasn't promoted. But he got 45 days restriction, extra duty,

and pay reduction. The second time he refused he got a reduction in rank,

45 days restriction, extra duty and pay reduction. He was told the same

thing, that he could receive the same punishment again. But we have

retained a lawyer for him who says that what they are doing is like double

jeopardy. They are being punished for the same crime twice. It's very

frustrating. Imagine what it is like for these guys. They are just trying

to protect themselves from a foreign substance being put into their bodies.

The more people that know what is happening, the better it will be for

these guys. We are trying to get my son's story in the news now. In the

end, these guys are the smart people!! They are thinking about

consequences. Good luck!!

Maureen

----------

From: Lancaster <lancastr@...>

onelist

Subject: Refusers on the Theodore Roosevelt

Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 1:14 PM

My husband is assigned to the Roosevelt and has refused the vaccine. He

goes before the captain today for punishment. I have heard from a source

close to the legal department, that there are about 50 refusers on the

carrier right now. They have given everyone about 3 weeks to change their

mind. Yesterday they started to send everyone to mast. As of yesterday

they have charged 8 with disobeying a lawful order. They are trying to

hand down punishments before they pull in port on Sunday. This ship leaves

again for a 6 month deployment at the end of March.

So far the standard punishment being handed out is as follows:

45 days restriction

45 days extra duty

1/2 base pay for 2 months

reduction one rank

I thought it was interesting that they had such a large number that have

refused on the ship. The word going around is that when they are through

with this punishment, the captain plans on doing it all over again if they

refuse once more. Although I have heard from others that they cannot do

this, I did talk to a JAG Officer in Washington DC that said the captain

had every right to punish them again. He compared it to the fact that " If

they were told to get a haircut, and they didn't get their hair cut, they

would be punished. Then a month later they were told to get a haircut,

and they didn't, they could be punished once again " . To compare getting a

haircut to something of this magnitude is incredible.

I just thought I would share, because it is interesting how many are

actually refusing. But on another note, most refusers are pay grades E3 or

E2. Of course anyone with any time invested has a lot more to lose. I

know they have been playing mind games with a lot of the guys and have been

making a lot of threats.

Just thought I would share with the group. Wouldn't that be a great story

for the media? 50 refusers on a carrier? Of course no local newspaper or

television station around here (Norfolk, VA) wants to touch it, because the

military is so important to our area financially. We have a section in our

paper each week that only shows all the " positive " aspects of the military.

Lancaster

Virginia Beach, VA

lancastr@...

[Guest guest]

I'm about to go thru this. What kind of discharge did you get? Restriction?

What branch are you in? I just want my college money--is there hope for

that?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/25/99 10:38:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,

BHess@... writes:

<< People who are refusing to take the

injections are asking for trouble. What should be done is simple. . . take

the dose, see what happens, if you grow a third arm, sue the crap out of the

government. Why should anyone ruin their life by not obeying the contract

that they signed when they joined. >>

You can't sue the government as a member of the military for any damages

whatsoever resulting from a military order. Have you ever heard of the Feres

Doctrine? If something bad does happen due to the vaccine you are just SOL,

because any lawyer will tell you they won't even file the case.

Secondly, no one is ruining their life by not obeying the contract. Being

separated from the military is not death. The real question here is whether

the officials behind the anthrax vaccine are honoring the contract...

The contract is not a carte blanche for military officials to give any order

they please. The " follow orders " clause is corollary to the " defend the

Constitution " clause. This doesn't mean that soldiers should weigh every

order before following it, but it does mean that it is the duty of superiors

to discipline themselves and only give orders that have the direct and sole

purpose of defending the Constitution.

Take a look at this month's US News and World Report... for some reason the

military can't recruit and can't retain. This is the result of " leaders " who

simply don't understand the basic American principle that authority is derived

from the consent of the governed. This isn't an ideal, a dream that we wish

were true, its a fact of human society... and the consent of people in the

military is being ignored to the detriment of national defense. Signing the

contract we all consented to take orders, perhaps take lives and risk our own

lives, in defense of the Constitution, but no one signed that contract so they

could be experimented on, or so they could make former Admiral Crowe and some

other defense industry insiders rich. These service members are not stupid,

and if the military continues to treat people as if they are stupid, pretty

soon we'll have an empty military, or a military manned only by people who

can't tell the difference between right and wrong.

[Guest guest]

My support and prayers are with you, !

Barb

[Guest guest]

Isn't " Wavy TV 10 " supposed to be the newsteam " on our side " ? Maybe give them

a call...

[Guest guest]

I know it really is double jeopardy, but I went through the same thing when

I refused it. There was mass confusion between my commander, and both

lawyers. Finally they decided to nail me with disobeying a direct lawful

order, and since I disobeyed that same order on 2 different day, they got me

twice with it. I still think it's double jeopardy.

Refusers on the Theodore Roosevelt

Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 1:14 PM

My husband is assigned to the Roosevelt and has refused the vaccine. He

goes before the captain today for punishment. I have heard from a source

close to the legal department, that there are about 50 refusers on the

carrier right now. They have given everyone about 3 weeks to change their

mind. Yesterday they started to send everyone to mast. As of yesterday

they have charged 8 with disobeying a lawful order. They are trying to

hand down punishments before they pull in port on Sunday. This ship leaves

again for a 6 month deployment at the end of March.

So far the standard punishment being handed out is as follows:

45 days restriction

45 days extra duty

1/2 base pay for 2 months

reduction one rank

I thought it was interesting that they had such a large number that have

refused on the ship. The word going around is that when they are through

with this punishment, the captain plans on doing it all over again if they

refuse once more. Although I have heard from others that they cannot do

this, I did talk to a JAG Officer in Washington DC that said the captain

had every right to punish them again. He compared it to the fact that " If

they were told to get a haircut, and they didn't get their hair cut, they

would be punished. Then a month later they were told to get a haircut,

and they didn't, they could be punished once again " . To compare getting a

haircut to something of this magnitude is incredible.

I just thought I would share, because it is interesting how many are

actually refusing. But on another note, most refusers are pay grades E3 or

E2. Of course anyone with any time invested has a lot more to lose. I

know they have been playing mind games with a lot of the guys and have been

making a lot of threats.

Just thought I would share with the group. Wouldn't that be a great story

for the media? 50 refusers on a carrier? Of course no local newspaper or

television station around here (Norfolk, VA) wants to touch it, because the

military is so important to our area financially. We have a section in our

paper each week that only shows all the " positive " aspects of the military.

Lancaster

Virginia Beach, VA

lancastr@...

[Guest guest]

I know it really is double jeopardy, but I went through the same thing when

I refused it. There was mass confusion between my commander, and both

lawyers. Finally they decided to nail me with disobeying a direct lawful

order, and since I disobeyed that same order on 2 different day, they got me

twice with it. I still think it's double jeopardy.

Refusers on the Theodore Roosevelt

Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 1:14 PM

My husband is assigned to the Roosevelt and has refused the vaccine. He

goes before the captain today for punishment. I have heard from a source

close to the legal department, that there are about 50 refusers on the

carrier right now. They have given everyone about 3 weeks to change their

mind. Yesterday they started to send everyone to mast. As of yesterday

they have charged 8 with disobeying a lawful order. They are trying to

hand down punishments before they pull in port on Sunday. This ship leaves

again for a 6 month deployment at the end of March.

So far the standard punishment being handed out is as follows:

45 days restriction

45 days extra duty

1/2 base pay for 2 months

reduction one rank

I thought it was interesting that they had such a large number that have

refused on the ship. The word going around is that when they are through

with this punishment, the captain plans on doing it all over again if they

refuse once more. Although I have heard from others that they cannot do

this, I did talk to a JAG Officer in Washington DC that said the captain

had every right to punish them again. He compared it to the fact that " If

they were told to get a haircut, and they didn't get their hair cut, they

would be punished. Then a month later they were told to get a haircut,

and they didn't, they could be punished once again " . To compare getting a

haircut to something of this magnitude is incredible.

I just thought I would share, because it is interesting how many are

actually refusing. But on another note, most refusers are pay grades E3 or

E2. Of course anyone with any time invested has a lot more to lose. I

know they have been playing mind games with a lot of the guys and have been

making a lot of threats.

Just thought I would share with the group. Wouldn't that be a great story

for the media? 50 refusers on a carrier? Of course no local newspaper or

television station around here (Norfolk, VA) wants to touch it, because the

military is so important to our area financially. We have a section in our

paper each week that only shows all the " positive " aspects of the military.

Lancaster

Virginia Beach, VA

lancastr@...