Re: Fw: Dr Bounous's Response

[Guest guest]

In Medline there are 127,152 listings for Free Radical Scavengers and of these only 7,175 (that is 5.6%) have anything at all to do with Glutathione. There are thousands of natural compounds which directly and efficiently scavenge free radicals including hydroxyl free radicals. These include everything from papaya juice, to grape seeds, to vitamins A and E, even nicotine. These usually work directly without depending on other enzyme systems to produce glutathione. Glutathione is no miracle scavenger. It just serves a number of functions along with tens of thousands of other important chemicals in the body. Those other biochemicals just don't have marketing teams behind them because they can't be made dirt cheap and sold for gold.

Glutathione is important enough that the body saw fit to evolve a mechanism to recycle it. For those of us living in the developed world, we would be hard pressed to figure out a way to eat where we would NOT be getting enough sulfur-containing nutrients. You would probably have to go on a subsistance diet of taro root or yucca root -- diets that deprive the body of methionine and stop the growth of cancer.

Bonous does not hesitate to quote in vitro studies when it serves his purpose, but the studies are automatically "dubious" when they show that glutathione may not always be Mr. Nice Guy. Any study that does not support Immunocal sales is twisted, distorted, and dismissed. Your marketing people play hardball. I wouldn't give a damn if they were selling wombats, but they are ripping off cancer patients in the same way that the conventional pharmaceutical companies do. They are just a bunch of buzzards tearing at the wallets of people who can't fend for themselves in the bogus science arena.

Why are you still pushing such a mediocre product? Would it be somehow unCanadian of you to seriously question the value of this product? Debbie, for months you have been providing the list with what you have claimed is scientific support for Immunocal and then reaping the sales. When I point out the fraud in the science and the outrageous untruths in your statements, you came back with something like, "I'm just a po' little country girl who spent my life hunkering in front of the general store hummin', and blinkin' and whittlin' on a stick." Did Dr. Bounous make you do it?

Fw: Dr Bounous's Response

Debbie

Here is Dr Bounous's response

"The correlation or consequence of the finding is difficult to evaluate because we must deal instead with the physiologic concentration of iron and anti - oxidant. In addition we must keep in mind that reduced glutathione is the most potent anti hydroxyl reducing agent so it becomes irrelevant even if the rather dubious data presented are true that is that GSH and ascorbic acid enhance the pro oxidant activity of iron".

> A caution here about use of iron with glutathione precursors, & c.>> Biochim Biophys Acta 1997 Aug 29;1336(2):295-302> Comparative studies of enhanced iron-mediated production of hydroxylradical> by glutathione, cysteine, ascorbic acid, and selected catechols.> Nappi AJ, Vass E> Department of Biology, Loyola University Chicago, IL 60626, USA.>> A sensitive electrochemical detection system was employed together with a> specific salicylate hydroxylation assay to comparatively assess theeffects> of various substances on the iron-mediated generation of the hydroxyl> radical (.OH). Hydroxyl radical production was found to be enhanced> significantly by reduced glutathione, cysteine, ascorbic acid, andselected> catechols, but not by mannitol, melatonin or tyramine. The data showedthat> over the range of concentrations examined, the augmented effects were> linearly proportional to the amount of added reductant for a given amountof> iron in the system. The pro-oxidant activity of thiols and ascorbatereduced> and recycled iron providing both hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) and catalytic> ferrous ions for augmented .OH production by the Fenton reaction. The> enhanced production of .OH by catechols resulted from their oxidationeither> by molecular oxygen or ferric ions, with the accompanying formation of> semiquinones, superoxide anion and H2O2. These data caution against> therapeutic applications of thiols and ascorbate for ameliorating> oxy-radical-induced tissue damage in environments where free redox-active> metal ions may be present to function both as foci for site-specific> peroxidative activity, and as catalysts to promote the pro-oxidant> properties of certain endogenous reductants, thereby elevating rather than> diminishing .OH levels.>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------> Looking for Airfare deals?> Visit Expedia.com for limited time offers> 1/5205/10/_/378/_/961132070/> ------------------------------------------------------------------------>> Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there.Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or byvisiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv>

Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there. Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or by visiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv

[Guest guest]

Dr. Stan Beyrle N.M.D. 5 yrs ago brought to the US from Europe, Recancostat(brand name for REDUCED glutathione which he says the only source is umbilical cords of full-term, vaginally delivered babies). He has used it successfully for cancer treatment along w/other nutrients, diet & sometimes ozone treatments. He has much medical doc on the product. He says that it is much better than glutathione & that it gets into the mitachondria of the cell (which most antixoidants don't) & activates the P52 gene which is a cancer-fighting gene. It is being used throughout Europe in cancer treatment centers, often in conjunction w/chemo & radiation. It is known to (1) reduce the side effects of radiation, (2) make chemo & radiation more effective w/less dosage. A nurse friend of mine had 3 surgeries for fast, invassive, non-estrogen related breast cancer last fall. The second surgery indicated pressence in the major lymp node. She did only one thing differently - Recancostate (2400 mg per day). 3 wks later a masectomy revealed no cancer in the breast or lymph node. Before the surgery, she was told that she would have to have the highest amt of chemo plus radiation. After the surgery, they decided on no radiation & only 4 dosages of low-dose chemo. When the encologist was reading the blood tests results after the 1st dosage of chemo, he scratched his head b/c the results were very near normal. When he read the results after the 2nd dosage, he shook his head & said " What is that stuff you are taking? I've never had any blood results like this in 20 yrs of administering chemo. " There was a drop after the 3rd dosage but the N.M.D. increased the Recancostat & the results improved in a couple of days. Being a nurse & seeing others on chemo, she is absolutely in awe of the results with Recancostat.

Kay Heizer

hhadvisory@...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Find out how to reduce the sources of the chemicals which cause cancer ( & a host of other problems). hhadvisory@...

Re: Fw: Dr Bounous's Response

In Medline there are 127,152 listings for Free Radical Scavengers and of these only 7,175 (that is 5.6%) have anything at all to do with Glutathione. There are thousands of natural compounds which directly and efficiently scavenge free radicals including hydroxyl free radicals. These include everything from papaya juice, to grape seeds, to vitamins A and E, even nicotine. These usually work directly without depending on other enzyme systems to produce glutathione. Glutathione is no miracle scavenger. It just serves a number of functions along with tens of thousands of other important chemicals in the body. Those other biochemicals just don't have marketing teams behind them because they can't be made dirt cheap and sold for gold.

Glutathione is important enough that the body saw fit to evolve a mechanism to recycle it. For those of us living in the developed world, we would be hard pressed to figure out a way to eat where we would NOT be getting enough sulfur-containing nutrients. You would probably have to go on a subsistance diet of taro root or yucca root -- diets that deprive the body of methionine and stop the growth of cancer.

Bonous does not hesitate to quote in vitro studies when it serves his purpose, but the studies are automatically " dubious " when they show that glutathione may not always be Mr. Nice Guy. Any study that does not support Immunocal sales is twisted, distorted, and dismissed. Your marketing people play hardball. I wouldn't give a damn if they were selling wombats, but they are ripping off cancer patients in the same way that the conventional pharmaceutical companies do. They are just a bunch of buzzards tearing at the wallets of people who can't fend for themselves in the bogus science arena.

Why are you still pushing such a mediocre product? Would it be somehow unCanadian of you to seriously question the value of this product? Debbie, for months you have been providing the list with what you have claimed is scientific support for Immunocal and then reaping the sales. When I point out the fraud in the science and the outrageous untruths in your statements, you came back with something like, " I'm just a po' little country girl who spent my life hunkering in front of the general store hummin', and blinkin' and whittlin' on a stick. " Did Dr. Bounous make you do it?

Fw: Dr Bounous's Response

Debbie

Here is Dr Bounous's response

" The correlation or consequence of the finding is difficult to evaluate because we must deal instead with the physiologic concentration of iron and anti - oxidant. In addition we must keep in mind that reduced glutathione is the most potent anti hydroxyl reducing agent so it becomes irrelevant even if the rather dubious data presented are true that is that GSH and ascorbic acid enhance the pro oxidant activity of iron " .

> A caution here about use of iron with glutathione precursors, & c.>> Biochim Biophys Acta 1997 Aug 29;1336(2):295-302> Comparative studies of enhanced iron-mediated production of hydroxylradical> by glutathione, cysteine, ascorbic acid, and selected catechols.> Nappi AJ, Vass E> Department of Biology, Loyola University Chicago, IL 60626, USA.>> A sensitive electrochemical detection system was employed together with a> specific salicylate hydroxylation assay to comparatively assess theeffects> of various substances on the iron-mediated generation of the hydroxyl> radical (.OH). Hydroxyl radical production was found to be enhanced> significantly by reduced glutathione, cysteine, ascorbic acid, andselected> catechols, but not by mannitol, melatonin or tyramine. The data showedthat> over the range of concentrations examined, the augmented effects were> linearly proportional to the amount of added reductant for a given amountof> iron in the system. The pro-oxidant activity of thiols and ascorbatereduced> and recycled iron providing both hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) and catalytic> ferrous ions for augmented .OH production by the Fenton reaction. The> enhanced production of .OH by catechols resulted from their oxidationeither> by molecular oxygen or ferric ions, with the accompanying formation of> semiquinones, superoxide anion and H2O2. These data caution against> therapeutic applications of thiols and ascorbate for ameliorating> oxy-radical-induced tissue damage in environments where free redox-active> metal ions may be present to function both as foci for site-specific> peroxidative activity, and as catalysts to promote the pro-oxidant> properties of certain endogenous reductants, thereby elevating rather than> diminishing .OH levels.>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------> Looking for Airfare deals?> Visit Expedia.com for limited time offers> 1/5205/10/_/378/_/961132070/> ------------------------------------------------------------------------>> Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there.Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or byvisiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv>

Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there. Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or by visiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv

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[Guest guest]

I did a med line search and will share the following. You decide whether Glutatione is important or not. I believe when you see more of the picture the truth is revealed. Is Glutathione important or as says "Glutathione is no miracle scavenger".And as implyed do you think it is important to your immune systems well being.

Free Radical Scavengers 127,152

Free Radical Scavengers Glutathione - 7,175

Free Radical Scavengers and Papaya Juice - 9

Free Radical Scavengers and Vitamin A- 1,140

Free Radical Scavengers and Vitamin E- 3,185

Free Radical Scavengers and Vitamin C- 18,566

Free Radical Scavengers and Grape Seeds- 24

Free Radical Scavengers and Nicotine - 543

Free Radical Scavengers and Cancer - 7,811

Glutathione - 43,342

papaya juice- 9

vitamin A - 16,141

vitamin E - 16,779

vitamin C - 20,160

Grape Seeds - 1,639

nicotine - 13,519

Cancer- 1,278,799

cancer glutathione - 5,343

cancer papaya juice - 0

cancer grape seed - 16

cancer vitamin A - 2,473

cancer vitamin E- 1,524

cancer vitamin C- 1,788

cancer nicotine - 688

Detoxification - 7549

detoxification glutathione - 1,676

detoxification papaya juice - 0

detoxification grape seed - 6

detoxification vitamin A - 40

detoxification vitamin C- 72

detoxification vitamin E- 63

detoxification nicotine- 1

detoxification cancer- 930

Cancer 1,278,799

cancer glutathione - 5,343

cancer papaya juice- 0

cancer grape seed- 16

cancer vitamin A - 2,473

cancer vitamin E- 1,524

cancer vitamin C- 1,788

cancer nicotine - 688

This was my med line search. I would have to say that in the area of Free Radical Scavengers there has been more research done on Vitamin C. But overall the research is leaning towards Glutatione rather then the other things you mention.

You are right there are thousands of natural compouds. But natural to what. When we speak of glutathione we are talking about a protein within all cells. These are for the better part minus the nicotine all very good but the only thing natural about them is the naturalness to themselves. They are not natural to us. Glutathione is,it is already waiting to be nurished with our cells.

"These usually work directly without depending on other enzyme systems to produce glutathione"

Vitamin C- Numerous studies have demonstrated the ability of viamin C to support glutathione levels and activity. C. S. ston, C. G. Meyer and J.C. Srilakshmi from Arizona State University coducted a double blind study comparing the GSH levels of three groups - one at a low-vitamin C diet, anothe ate vitamin C at 500 mg/day, and the third received 2,000 mg/day. Those taking the vitamin had significantly higher GSH red blood cell counts than the no-vitamin C group. There was little difference in glutathione level between the two groups taking vitamin C.

The converse is equally true. Vitamin C is far less effective and rapidly depleted without adequate glutathione. When a vitamin C molecule mops up a free radical, it effectively neutralizes it. However, the vitamin C complex is now tied up. It is either ejected from the cell and eliminated by the body, or it is recycled to go back and do more work. In the latter case, glutathione is the recycling agent. GSH and GSH enzymes accept the free radical from the vitamin C complex and free it up to get back to work. This cycle drive antioxidant function in our bodies.

Like vitamin C, vitamin E has an important role in the GSH-driven glutathione-transhydogenase enzyme system which keeps GSH, vitamin C, Vitamin E and othe antioxidants in their reduced (non-oxidized) state. Studies with GSH and vitamin E resemble those with GSH and vitamin C because these antioxidants depend on each other for proper function and recycling, The synergistic effect of vitamin E's ability to help GSH with antioxidation, and to its direct modulation fo glutahtione-related enzymes.

So once again I have to say Glutathione is very important to all of our well beings.

And on behalf of Dr. Bounous and Immunocal I would like to say,

Dr. Bounous med line search, 74 articles

Immunocal med line search - 367

Immunocal cancer - 10

Debbie

Fw: Dr Bounous's Response

Debbie

Here is Dr Bounous's response

"The correlation or consequence of the finding is difficult to evaluate because we must deal instead with the physiologic concentration of iron and anti - oxidant. In addition we must keep in mind that reduced glutathione is the most potent anti hydroxyl reducing agent so it becomes irrelevant even if the rather dubious data presented are true that is that GSH and ascorbic acid enhance the pro oxidant activity of iron".

> A caution here about use of iron with glutathione precursors, & c.>> Biochim Biophys Acta 1997 Aug 29;1336(2):295-302> Comparative studies of enhanced iron-mediated production of hydroxylradical> by glutathione, cysteine, ascorbic acid, and selected catechols.> Nappi AJ, Vass E> Department of Biology, Loyola University Chicago, IL 60626, USA.>> A sensitive electrochemical detection system was employed together with a> specific salicylate hydroxylation assay to comparatively assess theeffects> of various substances on the iron-mediated generation of the hydroxyl> radical (.OH). Hydroxyl radical production was found to be enhanced> significantly by reduced glutathione, cysteine, ascorbic acid, andselected> catechols, but not by mannitol, melatonin or tyramine. The data showedthat> over the range of concentrations examined, the augmented effects were> linearly proportional to the amount of added reductant for a given amountof> iron in the system. The pro-oxidant activity of thiols and ascorbatereduced> and recycled iron providing both hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) and catalytic> ferrous ions for augmented .OH production by the Fenton reaction. The> enhanced production of .OH by catechols resulted from their oxidationeither> by molecular oxygen or ferric ions, with the accompanying formation of> semiquinones, superoxide anion and H2O2. These data caution against> therapeutic applications of thiols and ascorbate for ameliorating> oxy-radical-induced tissue damage in environments where free redox-active> metal ions may be present to function both as foci for site-specific> peroxidative activity, and as catalysts to promote the pro-oxidant> properties of certain endogenous reductants, thereby elevating rather than> diminishing .OH levels.>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------> Looking for Airfare deals?> Visit Expedia.com for limited time offers> 1/5205/10/_/378/_/961132070/> ------------------------------------------------------------------------>> Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there.Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or byvisiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv>

Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there. Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or by visiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there. Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or by visiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

All the numbers of citations show is what gets funded. To get funded one has to show that there are unanswered questions about that which may be important. Glutathione is important. The body does need it for certain functions. This is not well understood. Glutathione protects cells. Cancer cells are high in glutathione. Cancer cells are protected by gluthione. A major strategy to kill cancer cells is to use agents that destroy glutathione. Check the research.

If Immunocal killed cancer with any real effect it would be used by the truckload in the Mexican cancer clinics. Likewise, if depriving the body of glutathione efficiently killed cancer, that strategy would be used in the Mexican cancer clinics. Efforts to increase glutathione or to lower glutathione don't seem to make much difference in outcome or in quality of life. Glutathione may have some benefit in cancer prevention though.

If I want to know if something works, one of the things I do is check it out in the cancer clinics. Clinical experience wins every time over theory, over cell line research, over animal model research, over company funded research.

The clinics that use many therapies see patterns of what seems to work. The docs and the researchers are very creative. We have tried the undenatured milk wheys, glutathione injections, glutathione tablets, NAC, taurine, methionine injections, DMSO and MSM as sources of sulfur and we have tried scores of additional antioxidants. All of these things have their values, their limitations, and their drawbacks.

As a rule the physicians and researchers at the clinics will tell you the truth about the relative merits of various medicaments. Those that will hyperbolize or lie are the clinics that rely on a single therapy. That is also true for companies that are built around one product. Their whole livelihood depends on the success or failure of their baby in the marketplace.

As to Dr Bounous, his whole career seems to have been based on finding merit in the use of whey. He had a paycheck as long as he found something to research. The marketing people saw the potential in undenatured whey that was protected with patents. A patent implies that someone is claiming/believes that a product has merit. A patent is used to sell medical products at a high price during the ether-phase of early marketing when no one really knows if a product is any good, but if it has sizzle it can make a lot of money for those on the ground floor.

I don't care if the Immunocal people make a lot of money. I don't even care that they exaggerate. People aren't stupid. They expect it. But after a while it gets to be very annoying when I read more and more bogus research, when I start to get the impression that the company has a policy of lying or doing anything to sell their product, when the scientifically naive shell out their last few dollars with a dream that Immunocal will somehow save them.

Immunocal seems to have about the same marketing goals as Ensure which is also used as nutritional support for those with cancer. You tell me that Immunocal is listed in the PDR, and it probably won't be long before they have "doctor dramatization" commercials on TV. Ensure may taste good but the sugar in it causes cancer to grow much faster. I found one US patent that showed that simply by leaving sugar out of a formulation a cancer growth rate will be inhibited by over 75%. Do you think the people at Ensure don't know this? Their whole attitude is one of, "Well, it's not illegal so stay off our backs!" Is that the attitude of your Immunocal company?

I do think that your Immunocal company will make a lot of money, but sales will be marketing/advertising driven, not value driven. If I thought the product had value, I'd be the first to say so. I have no financial interest in the success or failure of Immunocal.

Debbie, I am just a researcher looking for a little truth, a little candor. Your company seems to want to circle the wagons as if I am their enemy.

[Guest guest]

You say that Immunotec wants to circle the wagons as if I am the enemy. I have to ask you this, when did you speak with Dr. Bounous or with Molson?

As for glutathione and cancer I was just talking to my Dr. the other day and he told me that a lady that had cancer and comes to his clinic decided to take Immunocal during her chemo sessions. What she couldn't get over was that she had compared to the others recieveing chemo no side affects from her treatments. The others were deathly ill. I have talked to atleast four or five people myself and all of them have told me the same thing.

Glutathione is tightly regulated within the cells until it comes to cancer cells. When you give the body glutathione precurssors the healthy cells take what they need, and the cancer cells take to much. They overload until they shut themselves down. Where is all your research to point that if you give the body Glutathione precurssors it will accelerate cancer growth. You accuse me of not providing enough concrete evidence, but I don't see any from you either. My word or your word.

Never once have you asked to have that tape sent that I was giving out. Of the four speakers only one is involved with Immunotec and that would be Dr. Bounous, Dr. Lands is head of CFS at McGill University and did his own double blind study on the use of Immunocal he discusses this, Dr. Tom Kwyer is a doctor, ear, nose and throat specialist, who talks about his experience and knowledge of Glutathione and Immunocal, he is not an owner of this company any more then Dr. Lands is. And the last speaker is Mr. who is a nurse in New York City and involved very tightly with the AIDS society. He to talks about this disease and the importance of addressing Glutathione and yes even Immunocal. These people are not employed by this company. And they are professionals. What do you think they see that you don't? Or what do you think their gain is, to rip off the public because they like Dr. Bounous.

You and I go back and forth with this. You accusing me of ripping folks off, of being ignorant and yet I am to believe you and only you and all the others I have listened to or read are full of crap. I will concede you are a very smart gentlemen but are you smart in all areas. I don't know, but as much as you don't believe me I don't understand why I should disbelieve so many others to believe you. And if I were to believe you I could go back to being sick all over again.

Lets see 39 years of illness vs three years of absolute wellness, or should I believe . You tell me which do you think I should pick. That apparently for me is a no brainer, I will go along with the three years of wellness. And that means I will believe that glutathione is what it is and immunocal is only the building blocks for it.

And just to set the record straight Immunotec does not only sell Immunocal. They also sell Magistral for men, pure milk calcium, PNT200, HMS skin cream and a multi vitamin. All important yes, but not near as important as I believe the Immunocal to be.

So tell me when was the last time you talked to the company or Dr. Bounous.

Debbie

Re: Fw: Dr Bounous's Response

Debbie,

All the numbers of citations show is what gets funded. To get funded one has to show that there are unanswered questions about that which may be important. Glutathione is important. The body does need it for certain functions. This is not well understood. Glutathione protects cells. Cancer cells are high in glutathione. Cancer cells are protected by gluthione. A major strategy to kill cancer cells is to use agents that destroy glutathione. Check the research.

If Immunocal killed cancer with any real effect it would be used by the truckload in the Mexican cancer clinics. Likewise, if depriving the body of glutathione efficiently killed cancer, that strategy would be used in the Mexican cancer clinics. Efforts to increase glutathione or to lower glutathione don't seem to make much difference in outcome or in quality of life. Glutathione may have some benefit in cancer prevention though.

If I want to know if something works, one of the things I do is check it out in the cancer clinics. Clinical experience wins every time over theory, over cell line research, over animal model research, over company funded research.

The clinics that use many therapies see patterns of what seems to work. The docs and the researchers are very creative. We have tried the undenatured milk wheys, glutathione injections, glutathione tablets, NAC, taurine, methionine injections, DMSO and MSM as sources of sulfur and we have tried scores of additional antioxidants. All of these things have their values, their limitations, and their drawbacks.

As a rule the physicians and researchers at the clinics will tell you the truth about the relative merits of various medicaments. Those that will hyperbolize or lie are the clinics that rely on a single therapy. That is also true for companies that are built around one product. Their whole livelihood depends on the success or failure of their baby in the marketplace.

As to Dr Bounous, his whole career seems to have been based on finding merit in the use of whey. He had a paycheck as long as he found something to research. The marketing people saw the potential in undenatured whey that was protected with patents. A patent implies that someone is claiming/believes that a product has merit. A patent is used to sell medical products at a high price during the ether-phase of early marketing when no one really knows if a product is any good, but if it has sizzle it can make a lot of money for those on the ground floor.

I don't care if the Immunocal people make a lot of money. I don't even care that they exaggerate. People aren't stupid. They expect it. But after a while it gets to be very annoying when I read more and more bogus research, when I start to get the impression that the company has a policy of lying or doing anything to sell their product, when the scientifically naive shell out their last few dollars with a dream that Immunocal will somehow save them.

Immunocal seems to have about the same marketing goals as Ensure which is also used as nutritional support for those with cancer. You tell me that Immunocal is listed in the PDR, and it probably won't be long before they have "doctor dramatization" commercials on TV. Ensure may taste good but the sugar in it causes cancer to grow much faster. I found one US patent that showed that simply by leaving sugar out of a formulation a cancer growth rate will be inhibited by over 75%. Do you think the people at Ensure don't know this? Their whole attitude is one of, "Well, it's not illegal so stay off our backs!" Is that the attitude of your Immunocal company?

I do think that your Immunocal company will make a lot of money, but sales will be marketing/advertising driven, not value driven. If I thought the product had value, I'd be the first to say so. I have no financial interest in the success or failure of Immunocal.

Debbie, I am just a researcher looking for a little truth, a little candor. Your company seems to want to circle the wagons as if I am their enemy.

Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there. Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or by visiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

I'll interlineate a bracketted, italicized response. VG

You say that Immunotec wants to circle the wagons as if I am the enemy. I have to ask you this, when did you speak with Dr. Bounous or with Molson?

[i don't know either one personally. Who is Molson? a company executive? I received a short e-mail from Molson asking me to call him. He wrote that he could satisfy me that the company was not ripping people off. I e-replied with my phone number and commented that I doubt anything could be resolved over the phone. E-mail exchanges allow for a more considered, reflective response. I could do this openly or privately. This was several days ago. He did not call me or e-mail a reply. I don't read anything into it--he may be a very busy guy.

Debbie, I know nothing about the company. All I know is what the company itself has put out in the public domain. I make my living by knowing the biochemistry of cancer and I have a good nose for BS. There are many BS alternative cancer products, but I think BS conventional treatments do far more harm. It is not my job to police force the world when it comes to fraud in cancer products. I do speak my mind though. Debbie, to do an in-depth assessment I'd have to visit the company and talk with the technical people at length over several days. This is not that convenient as I have responsiblities down here in Southern California and with the Mexican Cancer Clinics. There are a lot of sick people who want to know what works. I want new products to work. The old ones aren't that great. If anything, I was biased towards seeing Immunocal work, but to date, everything I've learned about Immunocal is disturbing.]

As for glutathione and cancer I was just talking to my Dr. the other day and he told me that a lady that had cancer and comes to his clinic decided to take Immunocal during her chemo sessions. What she couldn't get over was that she had compared to the others recieveing chemo no side affects from her treatments. The others were deathly ill. I have talked to atleast four or five people myself and all of them have told me the same thing.

[That may be true. But perhaps the reason she/they feel good is that the chemo was ineffective. This is the rationale of those oncologists who avoid all antioxidants during chemo. Chemo tends to be toxic to the whole body -- this is the reason for the side effects. The antioxidants such as glutathione could well treat the different chemos as just more toxins to neutralize.]

Glutathione is tightly regulated within the cells until it comes to cancer cells. When you give the body glutathione precurssors the healthy cells take what they need, and the cancer cells take to much. They overload until they shut themselves down. Where is all your research to point that if you give the body Glutathione precurssors it will accelerate cancer growth. You accuse me of not providing enough concrete evidence, but I don't see any from you either. My word or your word.

[Debbie, I have no vested interest either way. I would though like to see such simple products work. The research you have presented has been unconvincing to me and it is often misleading. After looking into the research I remain so unconvinced that would be reluctant to give it free to cancer patients.]

Never once have you asked to have that tape sent that I was giving out. Of the four speakers only one is involved with Immunotec and that would be Dr. Bounous, Dr. Lands is head of CFS at McGill University and did his own double blind study on the use of Immunocal he discusses this, Dr. Tom Kwyer is a doctor, ear, nose and throat specialist, who talks about his experience and knowledge of Glutathione and Immunocal, he is not an owner of this company any more then Dr. Lands is. And the last speaker is Mr. who is a nurse in New York City and involved very tightly with the AIDS society. He to talks about this disease and the importance of addressing Glutathione and yes even Immunocal. These people are not employed by this company. And they are professionals. What do you think they see that you don't? Or what do you think their gain is, to rip off the public because they like Dr. Bounous.

Here's Lands:Treatment of obstructive airway disease with a cysteine donor protein supplement: a case report. Lothian B, Grey V, Kimoff RJ, Lands LC Department of Pediatrics, McGill University Health Centre-Montreal Children's Hospital, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.Oxidant/antioxidant imbalance can occur in obstructive airways disease as a result of ongoing inflammation. Glutathione (GSH) plays a major role in pulmonary antioxidant protection. As an alternative or complement to anti-inflammatory therapy, augmenting antioxidant protection could diminish the effects of inflammation. We describe a case of a patient who had obstructive lung disease responsive to corticosteroids, and low whole blood GSH levels. After 1 month of supplementation with a whey-based oral supplement designed to provide GSH precursors, whole blood GSH levels and pulmonary function increased significantly and dramatically. The potential for such supplementation in pulmonary inflammatory conditions deserves further study.[it is easy to bat a thousand when you have a single patient. The researchers say the patient was responsive to corticosteroids. The abstract does not say whether they d/c 'd the steroids. 80% of all ailments a patient goes to a doc for will clear up on their own. I have seen reversals of COPD and of emphysema that I could not explain. You have a double case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. They are assuming that GSH levels went up because the patient took Immunocal, and then they are assuming that pulmonary function increased because blood GSH went up. All we know it that a single person had problems breathing because of inflammation, he/she was given an antiinflammatory and Immunocal. Now he/she breathes better. So Immunocal and 50 cents will buy you a cup of coffee.]

Effect of supplementation with a cysteine donor on muscular performance. Lands LC, Grey VL, Smountas AA Division of Respiratory Medicine, McGill University Health Centre-Montreal Children's Hospital, Montreal, Quebec, Canada H3H 1P3. larry.lands@...Oxidative stress contributes to muscular fatigue. GSH is the major intracellular antioxidant, the biosynthesis of which is dependent on cysteine availability. We hypothesized that supplementation with a whey-based cysteine donor [immunocal (HMS90)] designed to augment intracellular GSH would enhance performance. Twenty healthy young adults (10 men, 10 women) were studied presupplementation and 3 mo postsupplementation with either Immunocal (20 g/day) or casein placebo. Muscular performance was assessed by whole leg isokinetic cycle testing, measuring peak power and 30-s work capacity. Lymphocyte GSH was used as a marker of tissue GSH. There were no baseline differences (age, ht, wt, %ideal wt, peak power, 30-s work capacity). Follow-up data on 18 subjects (9 Immunocal, 9 placebo) were analyzed. Both peak power [13 +/- 3.5 (SE) %, P < 0.02] and 30-s work capacity (13 +/- 3.7%, P < 0.03) increased significantly in the Immunocal group, with no change (2 +/- 9.0 and 1 +/- 9.3%) in the placebo group. Lymphocyte GSH also increased significantly in the Immunocal group (35.5 +/- 11.04%, P < 0.02), with no change in the placebo group (-0.9 +/- 9.6%). This is the first study to demonstrate that prolonged supplementation with a product designed to augment antioxidant defenses resulted in improved volitional performance.

[so here we have a doc up where you are who does write-ups on two very different possible uses for Immunocal and then appears on an advertising tape. Neither of these papers states who funded the study. Are we to believe that the Children's Hospital wanted to know if Immunocal increased volitional muscle performance?]

You and I go back and forth with this. You accusing me of ripping folks off, of being ignorant and yet I am to believe you and only you and all the others I have listened to or read are full of crap. I will concede you are a very smart gentlemen but are you smart in all areas. I don't know, but as much as you don't believe me I don't understand why I should disbelieve so many others to believe you. And if I were to believe you I could go back to being sick all over again.

[Debbie, I am not asking you to believe anything. All I am saying is, let's see the evidence. If there is no evidence, that's fine. I can deal with that. It is simply a matter of a woman who was ill, is now better, and is selling the product that she thinks helped her. There is nothing wrong with that. Instead we are offered a bunch of bogus evidence and scientistic advertising. You can be very convincing to many people because you are scientifically just as naive as the people you are selling to. This does not make you a bad person. It just means that it is high time some critical thinking was injected into the mix.]

Lets see 39 years of illness vs three years of absolute wellness, or should I believe . You tell me which do you think I should pick. That apparently for me is a no brainer, I will go along with the three years of wellness. And that means I will believe that glutathione is what it is and immunocal is only the building blocks for it.

And just to set the record straight Immunotec does not only sell Immunocal. They also sell Magistral for men, pure milk calcium, PNT200, HMS skin cream and a multi vitamin. All important yes, but not near as important as I believe the Immunocal to be.

So tell me when was the last time you talked to the company or Dr. Bounous.

[Debbie, you were the one who was posting. I assume that you passed my responses on to the company, and they only replied through you. It seems to me that they propped you up to get shot at. Your company has my phone number and my e-mail address. Send me the formulations and the claims on the other products and I'll tell you more about your company.]

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

You are tilting at windmills here...... obviously makes judgements,

suppositions and conclusions for his imaginary following. He doesn't even

know how to read studies for Gods sake.....He is a naive, biased and has a

very hidden agenda. He will continue with his vendetta and try to dazzle

most of audience with BS ( and he might even succeed in most cases!!) He just

professed that he HASN''T looked at the research and changes his tune at the

wink of an eye. I think he just enjoys playing around and has very little

interest in what works and what doesn't. He isn't even worth responding to.

If he only KNEW!! Just some thoughts from the sidelines...

Tony :^ )

[Guest guest]

Tony Luboff posts:

> Debbie,

>

> You are tilting at windmills here...... obviously makes judgements,

> suppositions and conclusions for his imaginary following. He doesn't even

> know how to read studies for Gods sake.....He is a naive, biased and has a

> very hidden agenda. He will continue with his vendetta and try to dazzle

> most of audience with BS ( and he might even succeed in most cases!!) He

just

> professed that he HASN''T looked at the research and changes his tune at

the

> wink of an eye. I think he just enjoys playing around and has very little

> interest in what works and what doesn't. He isn't even worth responding

to.

> If he only KNEW!! Just some thoughts from the sidelines...

>

> Tony :^ )

Hi there, Tony,

I didn't know who you were until I found your earlier posts that I

pasted below. In other posts you and Debbie lambasted Dr Dan as he

questioned Immunocal and MLM marketing. Since 6/7/99 you have posted 30

times on Cancercure on the miracle of Immunocal. Beginning 10/13/99 Debbie

posted a mind-boggling 247 times on Cancercure extolling your milk whey.

When I questioned her about Immunocal, she referred me to you. I suspect

that she is in your Immunocal downline and one of your star salespeople.

The both of you have abused this list to simply market Immunocal -- no other

reason. The Cancercure list was quite the cash cow for the two of you

wasn't it? In light of all this I think your post today was quite amusing.

Let me ask: on what other lists are you and Debbie performing your scheming

little pas de deux?

The deeper I look the more likely it seems that Immuncal will feed

cancer. Based on what I have seen of Immunocal quasi science and

manipulative marketing, I encourage everyone on the list who has purchased

Immuncal from these two to demand your money back per their guarantee. Let

the list know if they refuse to refund. Debbie is not just some innocent

little country girl who doesn't quite understand big words. Tony is not

just somebody " from the sidelines " . This whole company is one big scam.

They know it. I know it. Now, thanks to Tony, you know it.

Tony, you could at least offer a free body bag with each case of

" product " . What are you pulling in? $40,000 to $50,000 per month is my

guess. That is small potatoes compared to those fat cats who signed up

before you did. Life's not fair, is it?

Re: [ ] Check out Discover

> ,

> Referring to the Discover Magazine article (June 1999); It would be great

if

> they could find enough lactating mothers to get Human Breast Milk out

> there...but doesn't that seem a little challenging? The solution is

already

> here. I don't know if you caught it but after two years they finally

figured

> out what the cancer cell killer was; alpha lactalbumin. This is one of

the

> three thermolabile components of a product already on the market called

> Immunocal. Immunocal is the closest thing to human breast milk yet

> discovered. Maybe that is why it is the only natural substance out there

to

> have a method of use (pharmaceutical type) patents for TREATMENT OF CANCER

in

> the U.S. and Australia. Check it out on this website if you are

interested

> in learning more; http://www.immuneresponse.net/go/paragon I have seen

with

> my own eyes, full remission of cancer in more than one case with

Immunocal.

> Dr. Svanborgs work in Sweden just corraborates Dr. Bounous' work at McGill

> University with the discovery of this miraculous product.

>

> Tony Luboff

>

[Guest guest]

You are so funny, and you have the best immagination of anyone I don't know,

because I don't know you and you certainly don't know me. I am not going to

sit and call you names or accuse you of things I know nothing about. But

somewhere along the line you seem to have taken it upon yourself to believe

you know me and my business and now you seem to think you know Tony.

Well let me tell you, that being the case you certainly know him better

then I. So since you seem to want to spread rumors or maybe I should just

call them lies for the sake of those you are trying to convince I will tell

the truth. Whether you like it or not.

I am not on any other lists except maybe Bezerk where I like to go and play

a little bingo once in awhile. Been brousing but this is the one I recieve

at all times. Joined many things to check them out, but since my computer

crashed a few weeks ago, I am not sure what I had joined and stick with

cures for cancer. When I found this group I started posting with the best

intentions. Then I was what I feel blessed with having met Tony. I met him

on this cures for cancer. Maybe you can tell us all how long Tony has been with

Immunotec. I personally don't know. I started making it part of my daily

diet in March of 1997. And yes if you do your homework you might

find my name on another list from before, what did you do when you got your

computer, did you know exactly where you wanted to go? If you did good for

you. But I didn't as I never had access to the internet until one year ago.

I would like to make a challenge. Since you seem to know how much money we

have made and how many people you think myself and Tony have bilked . Prove

it. Quit accusing and lay all cards on the table. I dare say you have as

much proof on this as you do to the fact that Immunocal will speed up or

make cancer worse. You say I am all hear say. Well since you are the

one who likes to first off accuse Dr. Bounous of being a scam, then

Immunocal, then any doctors that have been involved and done research and

the company. And you seem to think it is okey to bash my morals and

integrity by assuming you know me and how much money I have made.

Do you honestly believe that everyone on Cancer cure is taking Immunocal?

And if they are what makes you so knowledgeable to say they have signed up

under me and Tony? So just so you can tell the truth instead of

lies, I am not in Tony's organization, never have been. But I will say that

I have been in multi-level before and I would pick someone with Tonys

character anyday over someone like you.

You are truly amazing, and that is not said in kindness. Because what ever

is making you so vindictave that you think it is okey to attack anothers

character is not good science, I don't care how you try and present

yourself. It is like bad gossip. And you spread the worst. So unless you own

the list and can kick me off, I suggest that the name calling and lies stop.

Talk about what you know , you are better at that. You don't know

Debbie, Tony, Immunocal , Dr. Bounous etc. Until you are willing to actually

do your research and talk to the people you are so determined to run into

the ground, I would suggest you don't. And I will be trully interested to

see if anyone wants to take you up on your challenge. Please if you feel

Tony or myself have led you astray, lied to you or got you take something so

harmful, then please let know. He needs real truths to say instead

of assuming all these lies.

And by the way , I have made a few long term and I believe for life

great freindships from Cancer Cure and you with all your non truths can't

take that away.

And as to my making $50,000 a year and more proove it! Once you do let me

know because someone has been seriously ripping me off and I am yet to have

seen the money. Get with it . Either prove Immunocal is a product to

excel cancer or don't, your trying to destroy my charecter or anyone else's

is not proving that point at all.

Debbie

Re: [ ] Check out Discover

>

>

> > ,

> > Referring to the Discover Magazine article (June 1999); It would be

great

> if

> > they could find enough lactating mothers to get Human Breast Milk out

> > there...but doesn't that seem a little challenging? The solution is

> already

> > here. I don't know if you caught it but after two years they finally

> figured

> > out what the cancer cell killer was; alpha lactalbumin. This is one of

> the

> > three thermolabile components of a product already on the market called

> > Immunocal. Immunocal is the closest thing to human breast milk yet

> > discovered. Maybe that is why it is the only natural substance out

there

> to

> > have a method of use (pharmaceutical type) patents for TREATMENT OF

CANCER

> in

> > the U.S. and Australia. Check it out on this website if you are

> interested

> > in learning more; http://www.immuneresponse.net/go/paragon I have seen

> with

> > my own eyes, full remission of cancer in more than one case with

> Immunocal.

> > Dr. Svanborgs work in Sweden just corraborates Dr. Bounous' work at

McGill

> > University with the discovery of this miraculous product.

> >

> > Tony Luboff

> >

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Lonely? Get Firetalk!

> Free, unlimited calls anywhere in the world.

> Free voice chat on hundreds of topics.

> 1/5477/13/_/378/_/962118799/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there.

Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or by

visiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv

>

[Guest guest]

Debbie ,

If it isn't true just say - I don't make money by endorsing immunocal-

instead of making fun of someone else ?

Joyce

Re: Fw: Dr Bounous's Response

>

>You are so funny, and you have the best immagination of anyone I don't

know,

>because I don't know you and you certainly don't know me. I am not going to

>sit and call you names or accuse you of things I know nothing about. But

>somewhere along the line you seem to have taken it upon yourself to believe

>you know me and my business and now you seem to think you know Tony.

>

>Well let me tell you, that being the case you certainly know him better

>then I. So since you seem to want to spread rumors or maybe I should just

>call them lies for the sake of those you are trying to convince I will tell

>the truth. Whether you like it or not.

>

>I am not on any other lists except maybe Bezerk where I like to go and play

>a little bingo once in awhile. Been brousing but this is the one I recieve

>at all times. Joined many things to check them out, but since my computer

>crashed a few weeks ago, I am not sure what I had joined and stick with

>cures for cancer. When I found this group I started posting with the best

>intentions. Then I was what I feel blessed with having met Tony. I met him

>on this cures for cancer. Maybe you can tell us all how long Tony has been with

>Immunotec. I personally don't know. I started making it part of my daily

>diet in March of 1997. And yes if you do your homework you might

>find my name on another list from before, what did you do when you got your

>computer, did you know exactly where you wanted to go? If you did good for

>you. But I didn't as I never had access to the internet until one year ago.

>

>I would like to make a challenge. Since you seem to know how much money we

>have made and how many people you think myself and Tony have bilked . Prove

>it. Quit accusing and lay all cards on the table. I dare say you have as

>much proof on this as you do to the fact that Immunocal will speed up or

>make cancer worse. You say I am all hear say. Well since you are

the

>one who likes to first off accuse Dr. Bounous of being a scam, then

>Immunocal, then any doctors that have been involved and done research and

>the company. And you seem to think it is okey to bash my morals and

>integrity by assuming you know me and how much money I have made.

>

>Do you honestly believe that everyone on Cancer cure is taking Immunocal?

>And if they are what makes you so knowledgeable to say they have signed up

>under me and Tony? So just so you can tell the truth instead of

>lies, I am not in Tony's organization, never have been. But I will say that

>I have been in multi-level before and I would pick someone with Tonys

>character anyday over someone like you.

>

>You are truly amazing, and that is not said in kindness. Because what ever

>is making you so vindictave that you think it is okey to attack anothers

>character is not good science, I don't care how you try and present

>yourself. It is like bad gossip. And you spread the worst. So unless you

own

>the list and can kick me off, I suggest that the name calling and lies

stop.

>Talk about what you know , you are better at that. You don't know

>Debbie, Tony, Immunocal , Dr. Bounous etc. Until you are willing to

actually

>do your research and talk to the people you are so determined to run into

>the ground, I would suggest you don't. And I will be trully interested to

>see if anyone wants to take you up on your challenge. Please if you feel

>Tony or myself have led you astray, lied to you or got you take something

so

>harmful, then please let know. He needs real truths to say instead

>of assuming all these lies.

>

>And by the way , I have made a few long term and I believe for life

>great freindships from Cancer Cure and you with all your non truths can't

>take that away.

>

>And as to my making $50,000 a year and more proove it! Once you do let me

>know because someone has been seriously ripping me off and I am yet to have

>seen the money. Get with it . Either prove Immunocal is a product to

>excel cancer or don't, your trying to destroy my charecter or anyone else's

>is not proving that point at all.

>

>

>Debbie

>

> Re: [ ] Check out Discover

>>

>>

>> > ,

>> > Referring to the Discover Magazine article (June 1999); It would be

>great

>> if

>> > they could find enough lactating mothers to get Human Breast Milk out

>> > there...but doesn't that seem a little challenging? The solution is

>> already

>> > here. I don't know if you caught it but after two years they finally

>> figured

>> > out what the cancer cell killer was; alpha lactalbumin. This is one of

>> the

>> > three thermolabile components of a product already on the market called

>> > Immunocal. Immunocal is the closest thing to human breast milk yet

>> > discovered. Maybe that is why it is the only natural substance out

>there

>> to

>> > have a method of use (pharmaceutical type) patents for TREATMENT OF

>CANCER

>> in

>> > the U.S. and Australia. Check it out on this website if you are

>> interested

>> > in learning more; http://www.immuneresponse.net/go/paragon I have

seen

>> with

>> > my own eyes, full remission of cancer in more than one case with

>> Immunocal.

>> > Dr. Svanborgs work in Sweden just corraborates Dr. Bounous' work at

>McGill

>> > University with the discovery of this miraculous product.

>> >

>> > Tony Luboff

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Lonely? Get Firetalk!

>> Free, unlimited calls anywhere in the world.

>> Free voice chat on hundreds of topics.

>> 1/5477/13/_/378/_/962118799/

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>> Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there.

>Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or by

>visiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv

>>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>Click here NOW to register to win.

>1/5598/13/_/378/_/962137188/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>Get HUGE info at http://www.cures for cancer.ws, and post your own links there.

Unsubscribe by sending email to cures for cancer-unsubscribeegroups or by

visiting http://www.bobhurt.com/subunsub.mv

>

>

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

Below is the real Tony Luboff. This is what Immunocal is all about. For every poor victim who turns their social security check over to Immunocal, there are eight visible levels of vultures who would rip out your throat for one more farthing. I know the kind of money that people at the top of these scams make.

I don't even have a problem with this company being an MLM. Tony put it right out there on his web page. No deception there. If someone wants to pay a hundred bucks for a penny's worth of value, that's their business.

You post scientific papers to convince people to buy your product. People take your word that these papers support what you say. Most people don't have a medical library a stone's throw from their house. I do. Most people aren't chemists. I am. Most people are not familiar with deviltry at the top echelons of most MLMs. I am. Most people are really quite trusting. Well, I am too. For many months off list I politely asked for supportive information. I got a shell game, I was defamed. I tracked down those papers you commonly cite. There was nothing there. If anything, there was a real potential that your milk whey would worsen cancer.

Debbie, think of it this way: Someone (me), in an international forum (Cancercure) which is being used by your company for marketing (a turkey shoot), raises questions about your product in such a way that it might affect sales. What does your company do? It answers with dissembling and invective. There has been such hostility from your company that I am going to keep looking to see what it is hiding.

Not all MLMs are bad. I think may have found a few decent ones. But then there are those that sell laundry balls and Immunocal.

Debbie, did you know that your downline has value? Why get tarred by selling laundry balls, I'm sorry, Immunocal. Find an MLM product with integrity and negotiate a position with your downline. I still think that you you would like to sell a product that you can believe in -- and this makes you very different from Tony.

List, send Debbie info on any quality MLMs that you know about. Help her get out before she gets mired in a class action suit.

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OTHER INCOME SOURCES

Quick Start Bonus Every entrepreneur. s first time Action Pack or Venture Order (2160 points) is paid out according to the Quick Start Bonus Plan. The Quick Start Bonus is designed to reward entrepreneurs for building their business. Whenever an entrepreneur sells a new customer an Action Pack or a Venture Order, they earn a Quick Start Bonus of 25%. An additional 5% is paid out to each of four qualified uplines.

Quick Start Bonus Plan: 1st Generation (G1) 25%2nd Generation (G2) 5%3rd Generation (G3) 5%4th Generation (G4) 5%5th Generation (G5) 5%An entrepreneur may place a new member anywhere in their downline. Infinity Bonus Pool Gold, Diamond and Executive entrepreneurs are eligible to share in the Infinity Bonus Pool representing 1% of total company commissionable sales. They must be commission qualified and meet the following criteria:Gold Bonus 1/4% of Infinity Bonus Pool" Open to qualified Gold and above." Must have $50,000 of organizational volume (G1-G6) and 2 active Fortune legs, each paid down to G4.Diamond Bonus 1/4% of Infinity Bonus Pool" Open to qualified Diamond and above." Must have $100,000 of organizational volume (G1-G7) and 2 active Blue Chip legs, each paid down to G5.Executive Bonus 1/2% of Infinity Bonus Pool" Open to qualified Executive only." Must have $300,000 of organizational volume (G1-G7) and 4 active Blue Chip legs, each paid down to G5.Immunocare Customer ProgramQualified Venture entrepreneurs and above can earn commission by signing up customers on the Immunocare Customer Program. Should a customer wish to become eligible to earn commissions, they must complete and sign an Independent Entrepreneur Application & Agreement form and purchase the required qualifying volume to achieve Venture status.Immunocare Customer Program Difference in DiscountBefore committing to the Immunocare program, customers who would like to purchase product on a one-time or occasional basis, can do so at the basic 25% discount. Entrepreneurs and above at the 40% discount, with customers at the 25% discount, earn the difference of 15% on every purchase. It is not necessary to be commission qualified to earn this income. By committing to the Immunocare Customer Program, and submitting a completed Immunocare registration form, these preferred customers purchase their first order at 25% and subsequent orders at the maximum discount of 40%. The client is automatically shipped product each month at the maximum discount, without having to worry about placing an order. Sponsors of Immunocare customers receive a $50 bonus for each year that customer remains on the program. Immunocare customers are not eligible to receive commissions, cannot promote and do not count as a qualified leg for their upline. For personal assistance please contact Tony Luboff

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[Guest guest]

,

You are not even worth responding to...but I will, how much does the

pharmaceutical industry and the FDA pay you and Dr. Dan to monitor this

site?? Huh? Maybe more that the few dollars I make helping people by

optimizing their glutathione!! What, maybe $60,000 to $70,000 a month? Do

they also monitor how many die by listening to your garbage?? What do you

make on each of those, maybe another $10,000 per body? You are a sick, sick

man (paranoid delusional??)

First of all Debbie is not in my " downline " as you think, (or do you), and I

know personally that I would be happy just to make the little stipend you

make from Ciba- Geigy. Just that alone would feed my family and pay the

mortgage. LOL

Seriously, , when research is proven in three different continents on

the efficacy of glutathione modulation through this amazing product,

Immunocal, why would I, or any one else for that matter listen to someone who

says...

" Tony, you could at least offer a free body bag with each case of

" product " . What are you pulling in? $40,000 to $50,000 per month is my

guess. "

That is just plainly being an AxxHxxe, and you know it!!

Yes, I do market Immunocal among other great nutritional approaches to

allowing the body to heal itself the way God meant it to. I have many

prominent Doctors, Naturopaths, Medical Herbologists, Osteopath, Homeopaths,

etc all over the country....utilizing Immunocal in their practices and their

patients are GETTING BETTER, not worse. Are you smarter than them??? I think

NOT!! I do not deluge this or any other egroup with garbage though and I do

not attack people who have good intentions. Your intentions, my friend are

evil and deserve very little attention. Say hello to the FDA boys and go

peddle some more drugs.

Life's not fair, is it?

Tony

[Guest guest]

Sorry Tony,

I don't make any money from any pharmaceutical companies or any

government. It is strange that you mention Ciba-Geigy as that is another

company that must be made to account for its policies. They developed a

patented product (STI-571) which is far, far better that any other

conventional medicine or procedure for Chronic Myelogenous Leukemia (CML).

It seems very safe and has been shown to induce complete remissions of CML

patients in full blast crisis. There seems to be a karyoconversion of the

Philadelphia chromosome by BMA, PCR, and FISH.

Ciba-Geigy has been trying to withhold it from the market. It is only

through the efforts of CML activists that research has recommenced. If made

widely available it will destroy the CML market for BMT and for alpha IFN.

I know a number of such instances where cheap cures are held back in favor

of high-priced garbage. We know another company that is selling high-price

garbage, don't we, Tony?

Tony, I know you because I know scores of people like you. You will

make a ton of money before people get hip to Immunocal and the pyramid

collapses. By then you will already be organizing high-energy sales rallies

touting The Next Big Thing.

I have never heard of a single case of cancer that has been cured by

Immunocal. For such a massively selling product, this is astounding. Even

rarely used cancer treatments such as a red beet diet can show a number of

cures. If a product inhibits the growth rate of cancer, it is still a

death sentence, just a slower death.

I know of one person who died this week after using an undenatured whey

product. He was 54 and had colon cancer that had metastasized to the

lymphatics and the liver. He started on a competing product that had even

higher amounts of lactalbumin, etc. than does Immunocal. He felt great for

about 2 months. Played basketball routinely. Then over the course of a

month he sank like a stone. Personally, I think that the undenatured whey

was a millstone around his neck.

I have invited Molson to call me or e-mail me if he has any kind of

evidence in favor of Immunocal. For many months now I have been asking the

company for any kind of supporting evidence. All I get is confused

responses from Debbie and vituperation from you. Such a strong response

from you would indicate that I am hurting you in the pocketbook. Wouldn't

that be all the more reason for you and your company to directly address my

concerns? I am concerned enough that I would welcome a meeting with your

company officials. Would their behavior be similar to yours?

You say you have many medical professionals now selling your pyramid

scheme product. My guess is that (1) they don't know chemistry, and (2)

they won't be buying it for long. I will be happy to talk with all of them.

I could do this privately or openly through the Cancercure list. The choice

is yours.

Re: Fw: Dr Bounous's Response

> ,

>

> You are not even worth responding to...but I will, how much does the

> pharmaceutical industry and the FDA pay you and Dr. Dan to monitor this

> site?? Huh? Maybe more that the few dollars I make helping people by

> optimizing their glutathione!! What, maybe $60,000 to $70,000 a month? Do

> they also monitor how many die by listening to your garbage?? What do you

> make on each of those, maybe another $10,000 per body? You are a sick,

sick

> man (paranoid delusional??)

> First of all Debbie is not in my " downline " as you think, (or do you), and

I

> know personally that I would be happy just to make the little stipend you

> make from Ciba- Geigy. Just that alone would feed my family and pay the

> mortgage. LOL

>

> Seriously, , when research is proven in three different continents

on

> the efficacy of glutathione modulation through this amazing product,

> Immunocal, why would I, or any one else for that matter listen to someone

who

> says...

>

> " Tony, you could at least offer a free body bag with each case of

> " product " . What are you pulling in? $40,000 to $50,000 per month is my

> guess. "

>

> That is just plainly being an AxxHxxe, and you know it!!

>

> Yes, I do market Immunocal among other great nutritional approaches to

> allowing the body to heal itself the way God meant it to. I have many

> prominent Doctors, Naturopaths, Medical Herbologists, Osteopath,

Homeopaths,

> etc all over the country....utilizing Immunocal in their practices and

their

> patients are GETTING BETTER, not worse. Are you smarter than them??? I

think

> NOT!! I do not deluge this or any other egroup with garbage though and I

do

> not attack people who have good intentions. Your intentions, my friend are

> evil and deserve very little attention. Say hello to the FDA boys and go

> peddle some more drugs.

>

> Life's not fair, is it?

>

> Tony

[Guest guest]

From 's Response To Tony

> I have never heard of a single case of cancer that has been cured by

> Immunocal. For such a massively selling product, this is astounding.

Even

> rarely used cancer treatments such as a red beet diet can show a number of

> cures. If a product inhibits the growth rate of cancer, it is still a

> death sentence, just a slower death.

Since you mentioned my name I would like to clarify a statement you make

here. Many times you have mentioned Immunocal not being a cure for cancer.

And I would like to say you are right.

You are right because it isn't a cure for anything. But in the scheme of

making the body whole it offers to the cells the precursors for glutathione.

End of story. Immunocal raises Glutathione. Immunocal supplies intracellular

the necessary building blocks for the cell to synthesize glutathione.

Glutathione is then linked to cancer. And there has been research with

Cancer and Immunocal because glutathione plays an important role, and

Immunocal has proven itself to raise glutathione. Not cure.

And because glutathione is in every cell there is much research as to its

part in many diseases. Again because Immunocal raises glutathione, it is

glutathione that is linked with so many diseases, those related to the

immune system. Again not a cure, but a necessary working protein within the

cell.

So for the record I will say again, Immunocal is not a cure for cancer, it

is whey protein proven to supply the cells intracellular with the

precurssors necessary for glutathione.

Glutathione when working properly is the cells antioxidant and detoxifier.

That means its job is to protect, and alot of cancer treatments, natural and

otherwise, for some with a compermized immune system, have side affects that

if the immune system is supported will help the body eliminate. Everyone

knows a optimized immune system is a major part of wellness. It is about the

role glutathione plays in cancerous cells. Not about Immunocal being a cure

for cancer. It is about Glutathione in the cells period. Never have I called

Immunocal a cure for cancer. But I would bet on glutathione playing a big

role in my fighting it.

I would also like to say that the company does not claim Immunocal as a cure

for cancer or any disease. They can claim that Immunocal supplies

glutathione with the precursors or building blocks. But I can say that there

is allot of research about Glutathione and Cancer, glutathione and many

diseases, glutathione as an antioxidant and glutathione as a detoxifyer and

glutathione and the immune system.

So I say hats off to giving the immune system the support it needs.

Debbie