Guest guest Posted May 31, 2005 Report Share Posted May 31, 2005 On Tue, 31 May 2005 21:26:03 -0600 " Caermail " <caerfree@...> writes: > If it were me, I would never take the medications. I would rather > die honestly. Besides, what it does to your T-Cells is merely a > mask. You will feel better, all the while, killing your own bone > marrow to the point that you are not able to produce any more. )======== And what might those particular meds be that do this(I've only heard of AZT doing that)? OH,.....so low cd'4s or what ever count you have has absolutely no correlative or indication of anything going on in your body relative to immunity - is that the claim? Dissidents have yet to prove that cd-4's are irrelevant and the general data points consisently to OI's being more 'opportunist' at lower cd-4 counts. While these lower counts may or may not have anything to do with the hiv...they still are usually a fairly good indicator on ones immune-response status. (ave. cd-4's range from 500 - 1500) This is the general concensus...and until it is disproven...it remains to be reckoned with. A good cleanse sounds good! paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2005 Report Share Posted May 31, 2005 I agree with you that survival has to be the top priority at all cost. If it comes down to dying or taking the meds, I would choose the meds. Then, while you are surviving, you can make money and go on a good alternative therapy to eventually go off the meds for good. Sylvain --- J Purcell <freelightexpress@...> wrote: > > On Tue, 31 May 2005 21:26:03 -0600 " Caermail " > <caerfree@...> > writes: > > > If it were me, I would never take the medications. > I would rather > > die honestly. Besides, what it does to your > T-Cells is merely a > > mask. You will feel better, all the while, > killing your own bone > > marrow to the point that you are not able to > produce any more. > > > )======== And what might those particular meds be > that do this(I've only > heard of AZT doing that)? OH,.....so low cd'4s or > what ever count you > have has absolutely no correlative or indication of > anything going on in > your body relative to immunity - is that the claim? > Dissidents have yet > to prove that cd-4's are irrelevant and the general > data points > consisently to OI's being more 'opportunist' at > lower cd-4 counts. While > these lower counts may or may not have anything to > do with the hiv...they > still are usually a fairly good indicator on ones > immune-response status. > (ave. cd-4's range from 500 - 1500) This is the > general concensus...and > until it is disproven...it remains to be reckoned > with. > > A good cleanse sounds good! > > > paul > > > > > > > Musically yours, Sylvain Gagnon www.sylvaingagnon.net info@... __________________________________ Discover Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover./online.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 PAUL: " OH,.....so low cd'4s or what ever count you have has absolutely no correlative or indication of anything going on in your body relative to immunity - is that the claim? Dissidents have yet to prove that cd-4's are irrelevant and the general data points consisently to OI's being more 'opportunist' at lower cd-4 counts. While these lower counts may or may not have anything to do with the hiv...they still are usually a fairly good indicator on ones immune- response status. " Yes, , you know that's the claim... or more correctly, the critique. What's the difference: claim or critique? I'll tell you and others because many never have been able to understand this concept. It's what a theory is and is not. A theory proposes some phenomenon PROACTIVELY OR AFFIRMATIVELY DOES EXIST OR DOES CAUSE SOME REACTION OR EFFECT. It is not a theory to contend that another theory is flawed or failed and here is why. It is a critique or challenge to bring that theory's validity under scrutiny and ultimate disrepute. However, it is never the burden of proof of those critiquing or challenging a theory to prove RETROACTIVELY OR DISAFFIRMATIVELY that some phenomenon *DOES NOT* EXIST OR *DOES NOT* CAUSE SOME REACTION OR EFFECT. You can't prove a negative and you shouldn't have to prove innocense. This is assumed until proven guilty, that T-Cells are an accurate or valid surrogate marker for health and wellness. First of all, if they were, why wouldn't they be used in many other applications. You don't hear of hardly any other group of sick people having their T-Cells counted, do you? Doesn't that seem odd to you? It should. Again, I recently asked you to provide the data from any study that supported the conclusion that T-Cells are correlated to illness or wellness with matched controls of socalled 'HIV' negative versus socalled 'HIV' positive persons. You have not provided that reference; neither have you indicated you have even sought that reference out by inquiring of your socalled " HIV Specialists. " Then, instead of requiring proof that T-Cells are accurate or valid markers or measures of health and wellness, you ask AIDS Dissidents to prove that they aren't accurate measures or markers of health and wellness. It's kind of like saying, prove that you didn't steal that candy. Rather difficult to do and rather unecessary if the proponants and prosecutors of said theory have not proven their case, affirming that T-Cells are accurate and valid measures or markers. CD4/CD8 Cell Counts Low CD4 cell counts (or abnormal CD4/CD8 ratios) are considered to be an unambiguous sign of the progression of AIDS, yet science does not support this. There are people with AIDS with normal CD4 cell counts and healthy people with low CD4 cell counts. Over a large group of people, it may well be true that on average, low CD4 cell counts identify a group of people who are more likely to be in ill health, but this logic does not apply to all individuals. Furthermore, even if low CD4 cell counts were always associated with ill health, it would not necessarily follow that artificially raising these counts with toxic drugs would be beneficial. CD4 cell counts are a type of Surrogate Marker, a lab measurement that substitutes for a real measure of health. Consequently, decisions made on the basis of CD4 cell counts should be interpreted with caution, particularly decisions that could prove damaging, such as starting antiretroviral medications. " This population-based cohort of unselected adults in Misisi, a shanty compound in Lusaka, has been under follow-up since 1999, and CD4 cell counts have been followed in participants since the initial survey. No antiretroviral drugs were used by any of the participants over the period of the study…In the survivors, the mean decline over 4 years was 29 cells/micro-liter per year…Our data indicate that the decline in CD4 cell counts over the period from 1999 to 2003 in adults not treated with highly active antiretroviral therapy was slow, and our estimate of the rate of loss of CD4 cells is in very close agreement with the estimate of 21.5 cells/micro-liter per year from Tanzania. These data support the idea that HIV progression to AIDS and death is slower than at first thought, even in very under- resourced populations living in crowded conditions. " Katubulushi M et al. Slow decline in CD4 cell count in a cohort of HIV-infected adults living in Lusaka, Zambia. AIDS. 2005 Jan 3;19 (1):102-3. " a total of 614 healthy native Chinese adults who met inclusion criteria were studied. Of these, mean age was 33.4 years (range, 16 to 50 years), and 377 (61.4%) were male…CD8 lymphocyte counts, which averaged 539.6cells/microliter, were significantly higher in men than in women, resulting in a significantly lower CD4/CD8 ratio in men. We observed a mean CD4 level of 727 cells/ l for the healthy, HIV antibody-negative Chinese adult residents of Shanghai, with no significant differences according to age or gender. [Table 1 shows that the range of CD4 cell counts was 252-2082, CD8 counts were from 193 to 1071 and the CD4/CD8 ratio varied from 0.47 to 4.62. Note that a CD4 cell count less thann 200 or a CD4/CD8 ratio less than 0.14, along with a positive HIV test and no illness, constitutes 'AIDS' in the US] " Jiang W, Kang L, Lu HZ et al. Normal values for CD4 and CD8 lymphocyte subsets in healthy Chinese adults from Shanghai. Clin Diagn Lab Immunol. 2004 Jul;11(4):811-3. " [Dr. ] Gazzard [retiring chair of the British HIV association] had his own Aids scare. " I pricked myself on a needle. One of the other doctors said: `Well, now you'll know what its like to be HIV positive'. I spent three agonising months waiting till I could take the test, and two sleepless nights waiting for the results. I did it anonymously at another hospital. " It was negative, but in the process they discovered I happened to have an unusually low CD4 count - 350 - which has stayed that way ever since. " [Dr. Gazzard is healthy.] " Cairns G. Interview with the professor. Positive Nation. 2004 Mar;100 http://www.positivenation.co.uk/issue100/features/feature6/feature6.ht m. " Baseline CD4 count was the strongest predictor of subsequent clinical progression " Mayer KH et al. Clinical and immunologic progression in HIV-infected US women before and after the introduction of highly active antiretroviral therapy. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr. 2003 Aug 15;33 (5):614-24. " After the addition of lipid-lowering agents, absolute CD4 T-cell responses were lower in the statin group than in [the other three] groups [of HIV-positive people taking antiretroviral therapy], when measured after 6, 12, and 18 months of treatment. " Narayan S et al. Attenuated T-Lymphocyte Response to HIV Therapy in Individuals Receiving HMG-CoA Reductase Inhibitors. HIV Clin Trials. 2003 May-Jun;4(3):164-9 .. " A total of 1078 human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) type 1-infected women from Tanzania were randomized in a placebo-controlled trial using a factorial design to examine the effects of supplementation with vitamin A (preformed vitamin A and beta carotene) and/or multivitamins (vitamins B, C, and E). Supplements were given during pregnancy and lactation [breastfeeding]. Children of women in the multivitamin arms had a significantly lower risk of diarrhea than did those in the no-multivitamin arm. The mean CD4+ cell count was 151 cells/microL higher among children in the multivitamin arms than among those in the no-multivitamin arm [although not with Vitamin A, indicating that CD4 cell counts can be increased in ways other than giving anti-HIV drugs] " Fawzi WW et al. Effect of providing vitamin supplements to human immunodeficiency virus-infected, lactating mothers on the child's morbidity and CD4+ cell counts. Clin Infect Dis. 2003 Apr 15;36 (8):1053-62. " Among patients with <50 million cells/l the adjusted relative hazard of mortality was 5.07 for patients of experienced physicians and was 11.99 among patients with inexperienced physicians, in comparison to patients with >200 million cells/l treated by experienced physicians. Similarly, among patients with >50 million cells/l, the adjusted relative hazard of mortality was 6.19 for adherent patients and was 35.71 for non-adherent patients, in comparison to adherent patients with > 200 million cells/l. " Wood E, Hogg RS, Yip B et al. Is there a baseline CD4 cell count that precludes a survival response to modern antiretroviral therapy?. AIDS. 2003 Mar 28;17(5):711-720. " Overall, neither the number nor the differentiation phenotype, including perforin levels, of HIV-1-specific CD8+ T cells appear to be correlated directly with the non-progressor state [CD8 cell counts are often taken in conjunction with CD4 cell counts as representative of the state of the immune system] " Papagno L et al. Comparison between HIV- and CMV-specific T cell responses in long-term HIV infected donors. Clin Exp Immunol. 2002 Dec;130(3):509-17. " Collectively, these observations indicated that qualitative factors within the CD8+ T cell response, not measured by current assays, may be the principal determinants of control over HIV replication and disease progression…The differential capacity of CD8+ T cells of LTNPs [Long-Term Non-Progressors] to proliferate when stimulated with HIV-infected CD4+ T cells is a measure of antiviral effector function that has permitted us to distinguish the HIV-specific CD8+ T cell response of these patients from those with progressive HIV infection. Differences in suppressive activity, beta-chemokine secretion, direct cytotoxicity, frequency, peptide specificities or expression of IFN- gamma, tumor necrosis factor alpha or IL-2 by HIV-specific CD8+ T cells did not account for differences in restriction of HIV replication…So far we have been unable to detect diminished production of IL-2 or other cytokines in the HIV-specific cells of progressors that would be typical of functional defects described in animal models consistent with anergy, clonal exhaustion or deficient T cell help. [in other words, there are no tests that can distinguish the immune system of those who will progress to AIDS, and those who will not. And, as usual, other disease factors than HIV are not considered] " es SA et al. HIV-specific CD8+ T cell proliferation is coupled to perforin expression and is maintained in nonprogressors. Nature Immunology. 2002 Nov;3(11):1061-8. " According to one paradigm [the one that made Dr. Ho briefly famous], the demand for CD4 T cell production in response to rapid virus-mediated destruction is the direct cause of increased turnover. Progressive depletion of CD4 T cells is accordingly seen as a failure of production to keep up with the rate of loss. This hypothesis has been challenged on several grounds…The quantitatively similar association between CD4 depletion and immune activation in HIV-1 and HIV-2 infections we report in this work supports the hypothesis that immune activation drives depletion…It is very unlikely that the similar rates of CD4 T cell turnover, found in HIV-1 and HIV-2 patients with comparable levels of CD4 depletion, are associated with similar turnover rates of infected cells despite the large difference in viremia levels. " Sousa AE et al. CD4 T Cell Depletion Is Linked Directly to Immune Activation in the Pathogenesis of HIV-1 and HIV-2 but Only Indirectly to the Viral Load. J Immunol. 2002 Sep 15;169:3400-6. " Researchers need to establish what constitutes 'normal' blood levels of CD4 cells in different populations in developing countries. " son J. Cheaper HIV drugs for poor nations bring a new challenge: monitoring treatment. JAMA. 2002 Jul 10;288(2):151-3. " Some serious illnesses, especially active tuberculosis and bacteremic pneumonia, may occur when the CD4 cell count is above 200/microliter…The available data from cohort studies, with one exception, have not been able to define a CD4 stratum above 200 cells/microliter at which patients benefit from initiation of therapy… In persons with CD4 cell counts above 350/microliter, risk of 3-year clinical progression [to AIDS] is low and additional concerns about impact of antiretroviral regimens on quality of life, risk of serious adverse drug effects, and limitations on future treatment options generally outweigh the benefits of durable viral suppression. " Yeni PG et al. Antiretroviral treatment for adult HIV infection in 2002: updated recommendations of the International AIDS Society-USA Panel. JAMA. 2002 Jul 10;288(2):222-35. " The controversy currently revolves around one key question: at what CD4+ cell count can the greatest benefit of therapy be achieved with the lowest possible risk of disease progression, drug toxicity, and drug resistance?…[a little later]…if the goal of therapy is to halt further immune deterioration, starting treatment when the CD4+ cell count is between 200 and 350 cells/mm3 may be sufficient. However, if the goal is more complete CD4+ cell restoration, early initiation of therapy may be more effective. [where was all that talk about drug toxicity and disease progression? That seems to have vanished from consideration.] " KY. When should antiretroviral therapy be initiated?. Medscape HIV/AIDS. 2002;8(1) http://hiv.medscape.com/Medscape/HIV/journal/2002/v08.n01/mha0117.01.s mit/mig-pnt-mha0117.01.smit.html. " The median percentage of CD8+ T lymphocytes increased from 38% at entry to 44% at follow-up in the 21 HIV-infected children with measles studied at both time points (P = .02). In contrast to the median number of CD4+ T lymphocytes, the median number of CD8+ T lymphocytes increased 2-fold from 1169 cells/mm3 at entry to 2477 cells/mm3 at follow-up in these 21 coinfected children (P = .002). The median percentage and number of CD8+ T lymphocytes in coinfected children were approximately double those in HIV-uninfected children with measles and HIV-uninfected control children. " Moss WJ et al. Suppression of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Replication during Acute Measles. J Infect Dis. 2002 Mar 25;184. " Consistent with the analyses reported here, these data indicate that direct virus-induced killing of infected CD4+ T cells alone cannot account for the numerical and functional depletion of CD4+ T cells leading to AIDS. Rather, AIDS progression reflects a complex balance between the direct impact of the virus and the nature of the host response to the infection [using SIV, Simian Immunodeficiency Virus as a model for HIV] " Regoes RR et al. Contribution of peaks of virus load to Simian Immunodeficiency Virus pathogenesis. J Virol. 2002 Mar;76(5):2573-8. " The median CD4 cell count increased over time for each treatment group (91 at TB diagnosis and 300 at 12 months for no ARV [anti- retroviral therapy]; 65 and 160 for dual ARV and 59 and 144 for HAART [Highly Active Antiretroviral Therapy, including 3 or more drugs] ... [Note that CD4 cell counts were about double in TB patients not taking AIDS drugs!] " Dean GL, SG, Ives NJ. Treatment of tuberculosis in HIV- infected persons in the era of highly active antiretroviral therapy. AIDS. 2002 Jan 4;16(1):75-83. " We did not find that the level of immunosuppression [CD4 counts in HIV+ African gold miners] increased the risk of overall recurrence, relapse, or reinfection [with Tuberculosis, an AIDS-defining condition in HIV+ people] " Sonnenberg P et al. HIV-1 and recurrence, relapse, and reinfection of tuberculosis after cure: a cohort study in South African mineworkers. Lancet. 2001 Nov;358(17):1687-93. " Two years before the virus that causes AIDS was discovered, physicians in the United States and Europe realized that the defining symptom of the mysterious new disease was the loss of a specific immune system cell population, called CD4 cells. Twenty years later scientists still don't know what kills the cells [but, gee, we all thought it was HIV!]. And its eventual discovery will be key to understanding AIDS - defined as a rise in the numbers of viruses in the bloodstream coupled with a fall in the CD4 cell count. [However]...it is not in HIV's interests to kill off its " home " [CD4] cell, most scientists believe a complex interaction is at play, causing the cells' deaths [translation: HIV doesn't kill CD4 cells and therefore cannot be the cause of AIDS] " Garrett L. Immune cell deaths still a stubborn puzzle. Newsday. 2001 Jun 5;C08. " Declining host selenium levels...inhibit CD4 T cell production, which permits opportunistic infectious pathogens to proliferate. These pathogens in turn lead to further depression of serum selenium levels and associated decline in CD4 T cell count " HD. AIDS and the Selenium-CD4 T Cell Tailspin, the geography of a pandemic. Townsend Letter. 2000 Dec;94-9. " HIV-1 infects CD4+ T cells but direct infection and killing of these cells can only partly account for HIV-1-associated lymphocyte depletion. The actual number of productively infected cells is estimated to be relatively low, in the order of 5 X 10^7 to 5 X 10^8 CD4+ T cells whereas the human body contains an average of 2.5 X 10^11 CD4+ T cells. Direct infection of CD4+ T cells does not explain the loss of naive CD8+ T cells that parallels the decline in naive CD4+ T cells during asymptomatic HIV-1 infection. More important in this respect may be the response of the immune system. HIV-1 activates the immune system persistently because of high and continuous virion production and possibly by viral gene products such as Nef. " Hazenberg MD et al. T cell depletion in HIV-1 infection: how CD4+ cells go out of stock. Nature Immunology. 2000 Oct;1:285-9. " Previously published data on CD4 cell count changes during therapy interruptions have mainly consisted of reports on very small numbers, but there has been a tendency to observe a distinct fall in numbers. The relatively rapid early fall in CD4 cell count after interrupting therapy may correspond to the relatively rapid increase in CD4 cell count after initiating therapy, which has been ascribed to the redistribution of cells from the lymphoid tissue [i.e. CD4 cells may not be increased with antiretroviral therapy, merely shuffled around the body to places where they are easier to measure] " Youle M et al. Changes in CD4 lymphocyte counts after interruption of therapy in patients with viral failure on protease inhibitor- containing regimens. AIDS. 2000 Aug 18;14(12):1717-1720. " Several of the features of Leishmania infection are reminiscent of HIV infection. In both, there is a decrease of CD4 lymphocytes, the immune activation profile is similar, and a dominant TH2 profile is present...All helminthic infections are associated with strong chronic immune responses...[including] decreased CD4 and CD4:CD8 ratios " Bentwich et al. EDITORIAL REVIEW: Concurrent infections and HIV pathogenesis. AIDS. 2000;14:2071-81. " Controversy continues regarding the effects of HAART on CD4 T-cell production...our understanding the mechanisms that lead to depletion of CD4 T cells remains incomplete. The observation that T-cell turnover in SIV-infected mangabeys appears to be normal, despite high viral loads, has reinforced the hypothesis that indirect mechanisms may be largely responsible for increases in T-cell turnover, yet there is little solid evidence on how HIV and SIV mediate this effect [translation: we don't have a clue how HIV kills CD4 cells] " RP. The dynamics of T-Lymphyocte turnover in AIDS. AIDS. 2000;14(suppl 3):S3-9. " The data should also serve as a strong reminder that using the CD4+ cell count as a surrogate for HIV testing has a risk of markedly overestimating the diagnosis of HIV. Therefore, CD4+ cell counts should not be relied on for a presumptive diagnosis of HIV in lieu of consent for serologic testing. Finally, a larger study of CD4+ cell counts in critically ill individuals might better define the prognostic value of a low result. " Aldrich J et al. The Effect of Acute Severe Illness on CD4+ Lymphocyte Counts in Nonimmunocompromised Patients . Arch Intern Med. 2000 Mar 13;160(5):715-6. " Tenfold (1 log10) incremental increases in maternal HIV RNA were associated with a 1.9-fold increase (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.2-2.9) in transmission and a 2.1-fold increase (95% CI, 1.3-3.5) in infant mortality (P<.01). Maternal CD4 cell counts and demographic and medical characteristics were not significant predictors of transmission. However, maternal CD4 cell counts below the median (400/mm3) were significantly associated with infant mortality (P=.035, Fisher's exact test) [i.e. CD4 cell counts might predict ill- health, but don't seem to be particularly associated with HIV/AIDS] " Katzenstein DA et al. Serum Level of Maternal Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) RNA, Infant Mortality, and Vertical Transmission of HIV in Zimbabwe. J Infect Dis. 1999 Jun;179(6):1382-7. " breast-fed [healthy, HIV-negative] infants had fewer CD4 T cells and a great number of NK [natural killer] cells than the age-matched formula-fed infants...suggesting greater maturity in the development of the immune system of breast-fed infants " Hawkes JS et al. The effect of breast feeding on lymphocyte subpopulations in healthy term infants at 6 months of age. Pediatr Res. 1999 May;45(5):648-51. " This analysis confirms that the rate of removal of CD4+ T cells is indeed elevated and the half-life is indeed shortened in the HAART group [i.e. therapy might raise the level of CD4+ cell counts, but they are not the same as normal immune cells, and might not be doing any good] " Hellerstein M et al. Directly measured kinetics of circulating T lymphocytes in normal and HIV-1 infected humans. Nat Med. 1999 Jan;5 (1):83-9. " Margolick...and, independently, Adleman and Wofsy proposed the BH [blind Homeostasis] hypothesis. They postulated that, normally, a constant number of T lymphocytes is maintained regardless of the CD4 to CD8 ratio...[and] would necessarily lead to a progressive depletion of the CD4 compartment in HIV infection if CD4 cells are preferentially destroyed by the virus...[based on the detailed analysis in this paper] we consider the original BH hypothesis and also its more elaborate version to be biologically rather implausible...If correct, the BH hypotheses, but not the alternative hypothesis, could account for CD4 cell depletion by HIV. However, as we have discussed, there is no compelling evidence in favor of BH, either inherent or HIV imposed...these considerations also suggest a need to reevaluate current concepts about HIV pathogenesis, including the concept that a systemic depletion of CD4 T cells is the hallmark of the disease. " Grossman Z et al. Conservation of total T-cell counts during HIV infection: alternative hypotheses and implications. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr. 1998;17(5):450-7. " new data point towards a different cause of CD4+ T-cell depletion in HIV-1 infection [other than direct cell killing]. Exhaustion of renewal driven by huge turnover of CD4+ T cells seems no longer a plausible cause for CD4+ T-cell depletion. Alternatively, CD4+ T-cell depletion might be caused either by interference with renewal due to virus-related damage, or by an intrinsically limited renewal rate of the immune system [the word 'might' indicates that they really don't know, and immune system depletion might be due to other factors than HIV] " Wolthers KC et al. Rapid CD4+ T-cell turnover in HIV-1 infection: a paradigm revisited. Immunology Today. 1998 Jan;19(1):44-8 .. " Clearly the change in CD4/CD8 ratio [often declared to be the hallmark of AIDS] and immune function is multifactorial and cannot be explained solely by a model of CD4+ cell destruction by virus…Indeed, in terms of number and function, CD8+ subsets are more altered by HIV infection than CD4+ cells [even though CD4 cell counts are commonly used as a measure of immune suppression caused by HIV] " Rosenberg YJ, AO, Pabst R. HIV-induced decline in blood CD4/CD8 ratios: viral killing or altered lymphocyte trafficking?. Immunology Today. 1998 Jan;19(1):10-7 .. " We present two cases of severe PCP [pneumocystis carinii pneumonia] in infants who were perinatally exposed to HIV [and AZT] but who were uninfected with HIV…Both children had a transient decrease in their CD4 cell counts that was concomitant with the acute PCP episode " Heresi GP et al. Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia in infants who were exposed to human immunodeficiency virus but were not infected: an exception to the AIDS surveillance case definition. Clin Infect Dis. 1997 Sep;25(3):739-40. " During HIV infection, CD4+-cell numbers and CD4/CD8 ratios decline in the blood. This is usually attributed to direct viral killing or to other indirect mechanisms. However, current models generally assume that such changes in the blood are representative of changes in total CD4+-cell numbers throughout the body. This article discusses the importance of alterations in CD4+- and CD8+-cell migration in regulating blood lymphocyte levels and questions the extent of virus-mediated CD4+-cell destruction " Padian NS et al. Heterosexual Transmission of Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) in Northern California: Results from a Ten-Year Study. Am J Epidemiol. 1997 Aug;146(4):350-7. " The summary of results from a 1993 state-of-the-art conference shows that the effect of treatment on the most popular surrogate, the CD4 cell count, did not accurately predict the effect of treatment on the clinical outcomes, that is, progression to AIDS or time to death " Fleming TR, DeMets DL. Surrogate End Points in Clinical Trials: Are We Being Misled?. Ann Intern Med. 1996 Oct 1;125(7):605-13. " The CDC definition of idiopathic CD4 lymphocytopenia [HIV-free AIDS] does not include any clinical parameters. [One group] comprises a series of individuals...who have CD4 counts which are low but in whom there is no clinical evidence suggestive of immunodeficiency...[some of these are] individuals whose CD4 counts are below the lower end of the normal range and who have constitutionally low CD4 blood levels consistently over a period of time without ill effect...their low CD4 counts may have no prognostic significance " Bird AG. Non-HIV AIDS: nature and strategies for its management. Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy. 1996;37(:171-183. " Despite its value as a general marker of disease stage, the CD4 count alone is inadequate as a means of measuring prognosis [i.e. declining counts do not necessarily predict AIDS, and vice-versa] " Saag MS et al. HIV viral load markers in clinical practice. Nat Med. 1996 Jun;2(6):625-9. " In clinical practice, a CD4+ T cell count of <500 cells/microliter is commonly used as a trigger to initiate antiretroviral therapy. This practice requires reevaluation in light of our observations that subjects with CD4+ T cell counts of >=500 cells/microliter can progress as rapidly to AIDS and death as those with much lower counts " Mellors JW et al. Prognosis in HIV infection predicted by the quantity of virus in plasma. Science. 1996 May 24;272(5265):1167-70. " [a study of the CD4 cell counts of 102 intensive care unit admissions] Our results demonstrate that acute illness alone, in the absence of HIV infection, can be associated with profoundly depressed lymphocyte concentrations [e.g. CD4 cells]. Although we hypothesized that this depression would be directly related to the severity of illness, this relationship was not seen in our results. The T-cell depression we observed was unpredictable and did not correlate with severity of illness, predicted mortality rate or survival rate " Feeney C et al. T-lymphocyte subsets in acute illness. Crit Care Med. 1995 Oct;23(10):1680-5. " The understanding of the pathogenesis of AIDS has probably suffered seriously from two major shortcomings. First, HIV has been wrongly...assumed to be cytopathic in vivo and second, for obvious practical reasons, only peripheral blood has been analyzed and therefore CD4+ T-cell counts in blood have captured too much attention. As stated above, there is good evidence that many host cells other than CD4+ T cells are infected by HIV, and there is no convincing evidence that HIV is cytopathic in vivo " Zinkernagel R. Are HIV-specific CTL responses salutary or pathogenic?. Curr Opin Immunol. 1995;7:462-70. " In a small percentage of persons infected with human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1), there is no progression of disease and CD4+ T-cell counts remain stable for many years...We studied 15 subjects with long-term nonprogressive HIV infection and 18 subjects with progressive HIV disease. Nonprogressive infection was defined as seven or more years of documented HIV infection, with more than 600 CD4+ T cells per cubic millimeter, no antiretroviral therapy, and no HIV-related disease. " Pantaleo G et al. Studies in subjects with long-term nonprogressive Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection. N Engl J Med. 1995 Jan 26;332 (4):209-16. " There was no consistent pattern in CD4 cell counts with progression of disease [in young European HIV+ children]. Evidence of immunologicc impairment as measured by CD4 count was more common than clinical manifestations of HIV infection. An estimated 17% of infected children who had not yet developed AIDS had ever had a CD4 count below the third percentile by 6 months of age, about 34% by age 1 year, and 54% by age 3 years…there was no clear association between CD4 cell count and onset of disease or death, or between CD4 levels before and after AIDS [note: a rare admission that `AIDS' can go as well as come] " European Collaborative Study. Natural history of vertically acquired human immunodeficiency virus. Pediatrics. 1994 Dec;94(6):815-9. " CD4 [immune cell] count fell less rapidly with high-purity [Factor VIII clotting] products. " Goedert JJ et al. Risks of immunodeficiency, AIDS, and death related to purity of factor VIII concentrate. Lancet. 1994 Sep 17;344 (8925):791-2. " The median CD4 lymphocyte count did not differ in the 3 groups: 54 for the group receiving neither antiretroviral nor P. carinii pneumonia prophylaxis, 53 for the group receiving only antiretroviral therapy, and 52 for the combined treatment group. There were also no major differences in the median CD8 lymphocyte count of the 3 groups [indicates that CD4 cell counts are not always improved by treatment] " Bacellar H et al. Incidence of clinical AIDS conditions in a cohort of homosexual men with CD4+ cell counts < 100/cubic mm. J Infect Dis. 1994;170:1284-7. " In this report, we present data on the prevalence of CD4+ T- lymphocytopenia [low CD4 cell counts in HIV-negative people] among healthy, volunteer, anti-HIV-1-negative blood donors...Five (0.25%) of 2030 index donations had a CD4+ count <300 cells per micrometer or a CD4+ percentage <20% " Busch MP et al. Screening of blood donors for idiopathic CD4+ T- lymphocytopenia. Transfusion. 1994;34(3):192. " 52 centres in 17 [European] countries participated in the study. Centres provided data on all patients diagnosed with AIDS between 1979 and 31 December 1989…For patients with konwn CD4 cell counts there was a significant association between CD4 cell count and survival " Lundgren JD et al. Survival differences in European patients with AIDS, 1979-89. The AIDS in Europe Study Group. BMJ. 1994 Apr 23;308 (6936):1068-73. " We found that among those with CD4 lymphocyte counts less than [200 per cubic millimeter], survival was highly dependent on clinical status [i.e. current health]. Those who were asymptomatic or were symptomatic but with no AIDS-defining clinical conditions had considerably better survival outcomes than those who had clinical AIDS, suggesting that while CD4 lymphocyte count is a reasonable predictor of duration of survival among homogenous clinical groups, the presence of a clinical AIDS-defining condition plays a major role [i.e. CD4 cell counts, by themselves, are not good predictors of survival in HIV-positive people] " Vella S et al. Differential Survival of Patients With AIDS According to the 1987 and 1993 CDC Case Definitions. JAMA. 1994 Apr 20;271 (15):1197-9. " The results of Concorde [a clinical trial of AZT] do not encourage the early use of zidovudine in symptom-free HIV-infected adults. They also call into question the uncritical use of CD4 cell counts as a surrogate endpoint for assessment of benefit from long-term antiretroviral therapy " Concorde Coordinating Committee. Concorde: MRC/ANRS randomised double- blind controlled trial of immediate and deferred zidovudine in symptom-free HIV infection. Lancet. 1994 Apr 9;343(8902):871-81. " Some HIV-infected individuals have remained healthy for more than 15 years following seroconversion. Lower numbers of CD4+ peripheral blood lymphocytes have generally been found to indicate the advancement of HIV disease... [but] The CD4+ cell counts vary from day to day and laboratory to laboratory, and similar levels do not necessarily reflect the same disease status in all patients. For example, very low CD4+ cell counts (less than 0.05x10^9/L) usually indicate advanced disease; however, some patients with these levels remain asymptomatic for extended periods of time while others succumb rapidly " National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases State-of-the- Art Panel on Anti-Retroviral Therapy for Adult HIV-Infected Patients et al. Anti-retroviral therapy for adult HIV-infected patients. Recommendations from a state-of-the-art conference. JAMA. 1993 Dec 1;270(21):2583-9. " More than 15% of the HIV-1-seropositive [iV-drug-using] individuals had plasma vitamin A levels less than 1.05 micromol/L, a level consistent with vitamin A deficiency. The HIV-1-seropositive individuals had lower mean plasma vitamin A levels than HIV-1- seronegative individuals (p<.001). Vitamin A deficiency was associated with lower CD4 levels among both seronegative individuals (p<.05) and seropositive individuals (p<.05). In the HIV-seropositive participants, vitamin A deficiency was associated with increase [indicates that CD4 cell counts can be modified by things other than HIV] " Semba RD et al. Increased Mortality Associated with Vitamin A Deficiency During HIV 1 Infection. Arch Intern Med. 1993 Sep 27;153:2149-54. " We designed a multicentre, prospective, randomised, controlled study of symptom-free HIV-infected patients with haemophilia A who were assigned to receive either an intermediate-purity [Factor VIII blood clotting factor] or monoclonal-antibody-purified [`high purity'] product…35 completed the 3 year study, 20 in the monoclonal arm and 15 in the intermediate-purity arm [many in this arm leaving to start on high purity Factor VIII]. Among those completing the study, there were no differences between the two groups in the occurrence of AIDS- defining diagnoses (1 in each group). There were, however, striking and significant differences in terms of changes in absolute CD4 counts. The group receiving monoclonal-antibody-purified concentrates had essentially stable counts while a significant drop was observed in the group receiving intermediate-purity F[actor] VIII. These differences were independent of the use of antiretroviral therapy. " Seremetis SV et al. Three-year randomised study of high-purity or intermediate-purity factor VIII concentrates in symptom-free HIV- seropositive haemophiliacs: effects on immune status. Lancet. 1993 Sep 18;342(8873):700-3. " CD4 cell counts and percentages were obtained from 1,246 HIV- seronegative subjects...Nine had at least one CD4 cell count of <300 cells/micrometer or a CD4[:CD8 ratio] <20%...Four subjects had CD4 counts <300 cells/micrometer or CD4 < 20% for two points in time, meeting the current surveillance definition for ICL [HIV-free AIDS]...We also examined the data for the 21 subjects who had one CD4 count between 300 and 500 cells/micrometer and for whom there was at least one follow-up data collection. None of these subjects progressed to a CD4 cell count of <300 cells/micrometer or a CD4<20% at any follow-up visit. Five of these 21 subjects later seroconverted for HIV [indicating that low CD4 cell counts preceded infection, and could not have been caused by HIV] " Des Jarlais DC et al. CD4 lymphocytopenia among injecting drug users in New York City. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr. 1993;6:820-2. " 36 subjects treated with high-purity [Factor VIII blood clotting] concentrate for 6 months or more had a smaller decline in CD4 than 72 matched controls on intermediate-purity concentrate. In a more complex analysis with 226 subjects, CD4 counts declined 3% less per 6 months with high-purity material than with intermediate product (p = 0.04). " Hilgartner MW et al. Purity of factor VIII concentrates and serial CD4 counts. The Transfusion Safety Study Group. Lancet. 1993 May 29;341(8857):1373-4. " 47 cases of AIDS were identified among the seropositive [iV drug using] subjects during the study period. The likelihood of developing AIDS was inversely related to the CD4 cell count at baseline... [but]...The principal finding was the slow rate of decline in CD4 lymphocyte counts in HIV-1 seropositive IVDUs over a 2.5 year period [and some cases of AIDS occurred at quite high CD4 cell counts] " Margolick JB et al. Changes in T-Lymphocyte subsets in intravenous drug users with HIV-1 infection. JAMA. 1992;267:1631. " CD4+ [immune cell] counts were higher in cases with KS [a skin cancer], lymphoma, HIV encephalopathy and wasting, compared with cases with Opportunistic Infections [but this does not match the theory that HIV attacks CD4 cells and causes immune suppression] " Schwartlander B et al. Changes in the spectrum of AIDS-defining conditions and decrease in CD4+ lymphocyte counts at AIDS manifestation in Germany from 1986 to 1991. AIDS. 1992 Apr;6(4):413- 20. " In the group [of 10 asymptomatic HIV-positive hemophiliacs] switched to the very high purity [Factor VIII] concentrate there was no significant change of the CD4 cell counts over the 96-week follow-up period, whereas in the group continued on the intermediate purity concentrate [also 10 asymptomatic HIV-positive hemophiliacs], a highly significant decline was detected (p < .013) [indicates that CD4 cell counts are affected by the purity of blood products] " de Biasi R et al. The impact of a very high purity of factor VIII concentrate on the immune system of Human Immunodeficiency Virus- infected hemophiliacs: a randomized, prospective, two-year comparison with an intermediate purity concentrate. Blood. 1991 Oct 15;78 (8):1919-22. " CD4 counts have been closely followed in [hemophiliac] patients treated with different [blood clotting] factor concentrates. Stabilization of counts and reversal of skin-test anergy have been reported following 24 months of therapy with Monoclate [a high purity blood clotting factor, with fewer immunosuppressive foreign proteins] " Schulman S. Effects of factor VIII concentrates on the immune system in hemophilic patients. Ann Hematol. 1991 Sep;63(3):145-51. " some healthy seropositive individuals lose a large proportion of their CD4+ lymphocytes, yet do not develop symptoms...Two patients followed at our medical center have had only 5% of their normal CD4+ cell number for over a year without any new symptoms. Thus, predictions on the development of opportunistic infections or cancers based solely on a decrease in CD4+ cells could be misleading. " Levy JA. Mysteries of HIV: challenges for therapy and prevention. Nature. 1988 Jun 9;333:519-22. " tuberculosis itself depresses T-cell function and causes a reversed helper [CD4] : suppressor [CD8] T-cell ratio " Pitchenik AE et al. Human T-cell lymphotropic virus-III (HTLV-III) seropositivity and related disease among 71 consecutive patients in whom tuberculosis was diagnosed. A prospective study. Am Rev Respir Dis. 1987 Apr;135(4):875-9. " [A] real T-helper [CD4] lymphopenia is only consistent with and not diagnostic of AIDS [even though it is now used to diagnose AIDS]; other diseases and some treatment regimens also can express a T- helper lymphopenia [deficiency], such as hospitalized non-AIDS IV drug abusers " Layon J, Warzynski M, Idris A. Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome in the United States: a selective review. Crit Care Med. 1986;14(9):819- 27. " The 53 patients studied included 15 homo- and 11 heterosexual men with chronic HBV [Hepatitis-B Virus] infection, as well as 11 homo- and 16 heterosexual men who were in apparent good health...Only 4 patients in this study had detectable anti-HIV [HIV antibodies] by ELISA...The mean [CD4/CD8] ratio was significantly lower in homosexual men, independent of HBV infection...Although 4 patients in this study had [HIV antibodies], the association of the abnormalities of T lymphocyte subsets [CD4/CD8] and NK [Natural Killer] activity with homosexuality remained significant after exclusion of these 4 patients from the data analysis [this paper does not consider the possibility that nitrite inhalants, almost exclusively marketed and used by homosexual men, could have affected the CD4/CD8 cell counts] " Novick DM et al. Influence of Sexual Preference and Chronic Hepatitis B Virus Infection on T Lymphocyte Subsets, Natural Killer Activity, and Suppressor Cell activity. J Hepatol. 1986;3:363-370. " Between April and October, 1984, anti-HTLV-III [HIV antibodies] developed in 16 patients with hemophilia A...[of whom] all but one had received a common batch [of clotting] factor VIII...a further eighteen patients received the implicated batch A...[but] have been negative for [HIV antibodies]...Lymphocyte subsets [CD4/CD8 cells] were investigated in 24 of the patients...the patients in whom [HIV antibodies] later developed had lower [CD4/CD8] ratios than those who did not seroconvert and the controls. The difference...just failed to reach statistical significance. In 1983 the absolute [CD4] cell numbers in those who subsequently seroconverted were significantly lower than those in the controls...The 15 patients who seroconverted used significantly more vials of batch A and also had a higher annual factor VIII consumption than the eighteen patients who did not seroconvert...Our finding in this study that T-helper-cell numbers and the helper/suppressor ratio did not change after infection supports our previous conclusion that the abnormal T-lymphocyte subsets [CD4/CD8 cells] are a result of the intravenous infusion of factor VII concentrates per se, not [HIV] infection " Ludlam CA et al. Human T-Lymphotropic Virus Type-III (HTLV-III) Infection in Seronegative Hemophiliacs after Transfusion of Factor VIII. Lancet. 1985 Aug 3;2(8449):233-236. " The commonest cause of T-cell [CD4 cell] immunodeficiency worldwide is protein-calorie malnutrition…[in Developing Countries] the widespread distribution of parasitic infections with known immunosuppressive activity leading to opportunistic infections, and the coexistence of mulitple parasites in the same subject [person], make it difficult to identify patients with AIDS on the basis of the current epidemiologic criteria [e.g. the `Bangui' definition] and immunologic aberrations [i.e. low CD4 cell counts or abnormal CD4/CD8 ratios] " Seligmann et al. AIDS - an immunologic reevaluation. N Engl J Med. 1984 Nov 15;311(20):1286-92. " we tested six asymptomatic asthmatics who were sensitive to mixed grass (positive skin test) with mixed grass extract, methacholine, and an antigen to which they were not sensitized (negative skin test). Levels of OKT4 [CD4] (helper T lymphocytes) were reduced in the peripheral blood immediately after the challenge with mixed grass extract, and remained low for at least 72 hours [note that low CD4 cell counts are supposed to be unique to AIDS by many accounts] " Adi A et al. Change in T-cell Lymphocyte Subpopulations after Antigenic Bronchial Provocation in Asthmatics. N Engl J Med. 1984 May;310(21):1349-52. " follow-up studies after booster immunization with tetanus toxoid revealed a significant decrease in the OKT4[CD4+]/OKT8[CD8+] ratios. In 4 of the 11 healthy volunteers, the OKT4/OKT8 ratio fell to 1 or less…The decrease in the OKT4/OKT8 ratio after vaccination was due to a reduction of OKT4+ cells in the peripheral blood of these donors… The results presented in this letter demonstrate that abnormal T- lymphocyte helper/suppressor ratios can be detected in healthy persons after immunization with a widely used antigen. " Eibl M et al. Abnormal T-lymphocyte subpopulations in healthy subjects after tetanus booster immunization. N Engl J Med. 1984 Jan 19;310(3):198-9. " Ten patients (6 males and 4 females)...were studied during the acute...or convalescent phases of CMV[Cytomegalovirus]- mononucleosis..Analysis of the T lymphocyte subsets..indicated both relative and absolute reductions in the T helper [CD4] subset and simultaneous increases in the T suppressor [CD8] population...Recent studies suggest that a delicate balance exists between helper [CD4] and suppressor [CD8] T lymphocytes in the maintenance of immune homeostasis. Several disease states have been associated with alterations in this balance [not just HIV, even though an imbalance in CD4/CD8 cell counts is now considered, along with an HIV test, diagnostic for AIDS, at least in the USA] " Carney WP et al. Analysis of T lymphocyte subsets in Cytomegalovirus mononucleosis. The Journal of Immunology. 1981;126(6):2114-6. > > On Tue, 31 May 2005 21:26:03 -0600 " Caermail " <caerfree@w...> > writes: > > > If it were me, I would never take the medications. I would rather > > die honestly. Besides, what it does to your T-Cells is merely a > > mask. You will feel better, all the while, killing your own bone > > marrow to the point that you are not able to produce any more. > > > )======== And what might those particular meds be that do this(I've only > heard of AZT doing that)? OH,.....so low cd'4s or what ever count you > have has absolutely no correlative or indication of anything going on in > your body relative to immunity - is that the claim? Dissidents have yet > to prove that cd-4's are irrelevant and the general data points > consisently to OI's being more 'opportunist' at lower cd-4 counts. While > these lower counts may or may not have anything to do with the hiv...they > still are usually a fairly good indicator on ones immune-response status. > (ave. cd-4's range from 500 - 1500) This is the general concensus...and > until it is disproven...it remains to be reckoned with. > > A good cleanse sounds good! > > > paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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