A Second Look At Anal Sex and 'Safe Sex'

[Guest guest]

,

I agree with you about Ts and VLs, but not completely on the anal sex part. Although it isn't necessary to express same-sexual love in such a way-- to say it is inherently unhealthy is problematic for my spirituality. Check out the highlighted article for a somewhat ranting history of Anal Sex by Fred Cline.

Perhaps we should consider alternative health ways for cleansing anally and in other ways.

There is an excellent book I used to have called Anal Health Handbook, anyone heard of it?

Natural Hygeine http://go.to/sfalk

Knowledge is the Cure http://www.knowledgeisthecure.com

I propose a reappraisal of what is called 'safe-sex' into what might be called 'sanitary' and 'sacred' sex. Although, assuming other STDs exist-- though some dispute the whole virus/germ theory which Alternative Medicine has long questioned-- condoms and lube are a risk for those who have multipartnered anal sex. Some of the Dissident Scientists who have raised these issues have been accused of homophobia, though most are clearly not. Lifestyle is no monolithic stereotype among gay men, yet we all know what "messy" is.

Safe Sex

Latex, Condoms, Spermicide, Nonoxynol-9

Lauritsen, 'Latex Lunacy'

Herbert Ratner, 'Semen and Health'

Fred Cline, 'A Second Look at Anal Sex and "AIDS"'

Byrnes,'Benzene, Lubricants and AIDS'

Associate Press, 'Spermicide Linked to Infections in Women'

Bohdan Zachary, 'Nonoxynol-9: Better Safe Than Sorry?'

Bob Roehr, 'Is Nonoxynol-9 an HIV Risk?'

Martha Brannigan, 'Spermicide Made by Columbia Labs Fails to Stop HIV'

Maggie Fox, 'Spermicide Worsens HIV Risk '

ANC Today, 'HIV/AIDS, Profit and Fundamental Human Rights'

Bruce Berlow, 'The Newest Epidemic: Latex Allergies'

Amy Behrman, 'Latex Allergy'

Celia Farber, 'Unprotected'

Christian Fiala, 'Epidemiological Evidence Against Prevention-Campaigns'

Will Dunham, 'Experts Defend Condoms Despite US Gov't Report'

The Physicians Consortium, 'Press Release'

More about latex allergies, more about barebacking.

Wennerberg <davidwennerberg@...> wrote:

Regarding the tests (viral load, t-cell), there is so much debate among the experts that I have come to the conclusion that the tests are worth while only to the medical, pharmaceutical and AIDS industries to keep the AIDS machine rolling.

Once I gave up on these tests, I no longer had AIDS. For me, my AIDS diagnosis was because of t-cell counts and a positive AIDS test result. I have never had an illness linked to the supposed HIV. The only reason I started to get sick was because of the meds I was prescribed to combat the supposed HIV. I stopped the meds and my physical health returned. I stopped the 'tests' and my psychological health returned. Simple as that.

My personal research has taught me that the t-cell test is not indicative of health. The blood is not an accurate way of determining t-cell activity since the amount of t-cells in the blood is minimal. Beside blood being the wrong vehicle to detect t-cell counts, high t-cell counts indicate an active immune system dealing with a toxic body - not a healthy immune system or a healthy body.

From what I have come to learn, the viral load test is complete and utter nonsense when used to detect the supposed HIV. The viral load test uses the PCR technique which basically super amplifies viral particles; good for forensic science, useless for HIV viral load detection. A good analogy of the test is: PCR is like looking for a needle in a haystack by turning the haystack into needles. The inventor of PCR has publicly stated that the test can not/should not be used to detect HIV. At best, it only detects viral particles (which may or may not be the supposed HIV), not whole virus. Going back to square one: we can not link viral particles to a virus that has never been isolated. What could we look for is we don't know what it (HIV) looks like? I am surprised that this test is still administered.

Regarding anal sex, condoms and STDs. Personally, I think anal sex is unhealthy. The trauma to the anus and rectum caused by anal intercourse can only lead to trouble. Adding synthetic elements (condoms) to this sensitive area is sure to cause problems. Latex is toxic to the body. The wall of the rectum is very thin and serves as a direct route to the blood stream. The tears that result from penetration in this area allow the synthetic material found in condoms, STDs, semen (a super potent antigen) and fecal matter to enter the blood stream in a big way. Again, this can not be healthy. As a gay male, this is my personal opinion.

>From: freelightexpress@...

>Reply-cures for AIDS

>cures for AIDS

>Subject: the counts - are they useful?

>Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:28:27 -0800

>

>

>

>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:41 -0000 "tdh58" writes:

>

>

> > Hi lotuslady.... I just wanted to respond to your question about

> > Cat's Claw, or in Spanish "Una De Gato". I started taking Cat's

> > claw

> > 7 years ago, and saw an almost immediate response in my CD4 counts

> > and viral load. My T cells immediately began to rise, and my viral

> > load started falling. I've been taking it ever since, and plan to

> > continue forever. I also began taking grape seed extract at the

> > same

> > time. I recently began taking Fossilized Coral, and have been

> > ASTOUNDED at how much better I'm feeling. The energy levels are

> > just

> > fantastic, and my general feeling of well being is greatly improved.

> >

> > I am still, after 10 years of being through the ringer with

> > diagnoses

> > and side effects from meds, doing quite well. Still have high CD4

> > counts, and an undetectable viral load. Hang in there, and keep a

> > POSITIVE ATTITUDE.

>

>)==============Hi tdh58,............I see use the t-cell and viral counts

>as indicators of health - however.....are these ultimately reliable

>guides? I just got Maggiores book, "What if everything you

>thought you knew about AIDS was wrong?' I am currently in this phase of

>my experience in hiv-ville getting my counts done every 3 months or less

>- just as an experimental stage for myself. My question to those who hold

>that these tests are useless, more or less - what if anything can these

>tests tell us in reality as far as being a guage or indicator of our

>actual state of health or any other conditions of concern??? I would hold

>that these tests must hold some indicative quality and worth about them

>that can be used, regardless of opposing viewpoints and findings from

>various camps. So.......what can those of you have have thoroughly

>studied the validity of these tests share with us who are on a regular

>schedule of getting our counts done??? I go in tomorrow actually to get

>my 3rd results of t-cell. v-load counts. My condition of hives has left

>me for several days now - I took some niacin and had the flushing effect

>real bad - after that wore off I never had hives again. Maybe the

>cleansing power of the niacin opened up and cleared some toxins trapped

>in some of my blood vessels and flushed them out. who knows. Now

>please.....anyone help with my questions above?

> Also - Ted, my cheap rebounder has broken 2 of its springs - I've had

>it with cheapies! Let me know your web-site again and I will also check

>out other places for a good quality/good price rebounder. Things are a

>little tight right now.....so I must be thrifty.

> Also....sometime back I asked a question about anal sex and STD

>transmission, the effectiveness of condoms, etc. Not one reply! Imagine

>that. Oh well.

>

>

>thanks all!

>

>

>paul

>

>________________________________________________________________

>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.Read AIDS-Cured

[Guest guest]

,

Yes, I had read Fred Cline's excellent 'history of anal sex' - very interesting indeed.

In the end, I think the frequency of receptive anal intercourse may be a distinguishing factor between being tolerated or unhealthy for the body. I also believe that any extra burden to an immune system already taxed from prescribed and recreational drug consumption and the continual onslaught of infections and illnesses from STDs, would be best minimized.

In this light, I think that the potential harm caused by receptive anal intercourse is probably better avoided or at least approached with caution and understanding.

When the real causes of AIDS are uncovered, I think we will find it to be the result of many simultaneous factors that disrupt or impair the immune system. Lets hope the time is near.

>From: Landis

>Reply-cures for AIDS

>cures for AIDS

>Subject: A Second Look At Anal Sex and 'Safe Sex'

>Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:28:01 -0800 (PST)

>

>

>,

>

>I agree with you about Ts and VLs, but not completely on the anal sex part. Although it isn't necessary to express same-sexual love in such a way-- to say it is inherently unhealthy is problematic for my spirituality. Check out the highlighted article for a somewhat ranting history of Anal Sex by Fred Cline.

>

>Perhaps we should consider alternative health ways for cleansing anally and in other ways.

>

>There is an excellent book I used to have called Anal Health Handbook, anyone heard of it?

>

>Natural Hygeine http://go.to/sfalk

>

>Knowledge is the Cure http://www.knowledgeisthecure.com

>

>I propose a reappraisal of what is called 'safe-sex' into what might be called 'sanitary' and 'sacred' sex. Although, assuming other STDs exist-- though some dispute the whole virus/germ theory which Alternative Medicine has long questioned-- condoms and lube are a risk for those who have multipartnered anal sex. Some of the Dissident Scientists who have raised these issues have been accused of homophobia, though most are clearly not. Lifestyle is no monolithic stereotype among gay men, yet we all know what "messy" is.

>

>

>

>Safe Sex

>

>Latex, Condoms, Spermicide, Nonoxynol-9

>

>---------------------------------

>

> Lauritsen, 'Latex Lunacy'

> Herbert Ratner, 'Semen and Health'

> Fred Cline, 'A Second Look at Anal Sex and "AIDS"'

> Byrnes,'Benzene, Lubricants and AIDS'

> Associate Press, 'Spermicide Linked to Infections in Women'

> Bohdan Zachary, 'Nonoxynol-9: Better Safe Than Sorry?'

> Bob Roehr, 'Is Nonoxynol-9 an HIV Risk?'

> Martha Brannigan, 'Spermicide Made by Columbia Labs Fails to Stop HIV'

> Maggie Fox, 'Spermicide Worsens HIV Risk '

> ANC Today, 'HIV/AIDS, Profit and Fundamental Human Rights'

> Bruce Berlow, 'The Newest Epidemic: Latex Allergies'

> Amy Behrman, 'Latex Allergy'

> Celia Farber, 'Unprotected'

> Christian Fiala, 'Epidemiological Evidence Against Prevention-Campaigns'

> Will Dunham, 'Experts Defend Condoms Despite US Gov't Report'

> The Physicians Consortium, 'Press Release'

>

>More about latex allergies, more about barebacking.

>

>

> Wennerberg wrote: Regarding the tests (viral load, t-cell), there is so much debate among the experts that I have come to the conclusion that the tests are worth while only to the medical, pharmaceutical and AIDS industries to keep the AIDS machine rolling. Once I gave up on these tests, I no longer had AIDS. For me, my AIDS diagnosis was because of t-cell counts and a positive AIDS test result. I have never had an illness linked to the supposed HIV. The only reason I started to get sick was because of the meds I was prescribed to combat the supposed HIV. I stopped the meds and my physical health returned. I stopped the 'tests' and my psychological health returned. Simple as that. My personal research has taught me that the t-cell test is not indicative of health. The blood is not an accurate way of determining t-cell activity since the amount of t-cells in the blood is minimal. Beside blood being the wrong vehicle to detect t-cell counts, high t-cell counts indicate an active immune system dealing with a toxic body - not a healthy immune system or a healthy body. From what I have come to learn, the viral load test is complete and utter nonsense when used to detect the supposed HIV. The viral load test uses the PCR technique which basically super amplifies viral particles; good for forensic science, useless for HIV viral load detection. A good analogy of the test is: PCR is like looking for a needle in a haystack by turning the haystack into needles. The inventor of PCR has publicly stated that the test can not/should not be used to detect HIV. At best, it only detects viral particles (which may or may not be the supposed HIV), not whole virus. Going back to square one: we can not link viral particles to a virus that has never been isolated. What could we look for is we don't know what it (HIV) looks like? I am surprised that this test is still administered. Regarding anal sex, condoms and STDs. Personally, I think anal sex is unhealthy. The trauma to the anus and rectum caused by anal intercourse can only lead to trouble. Adding synthetic elements (condoms) to this sensitive area is sure to cause problems. Latex is toxic to the body. The wall of the rectum is very thin and serves as a direct route to the blood stream. The tears that result from penetration in this area allow the synthetic material found in condoms, STDs, semen (a super potent antigen) and fecal matter to enter the blood stream in a big way. Again, this can not be healthy. As a gay male, this is my personal opinion. >From: freelightexpress@... >Reply-cures for AIDS >cures for AIDS >Subject: the counts - are they useful? >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:28:27 -0800 > > > >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:41 -0000 "tdh58" writes: > > > > Hi lotuslady.... I just wanted to respond to your question about > > Cat's Claw, or in Spanish "Una De Gato". I started taking Cat's > > claw > > 7 years ago, and saw an almost immediate response in my CD4 counts > > and viral load. My T cells immediately began to rise, and my viral > > load started falling. I've been taking it ever since, and plan to > > continue forever. I also began taking grape seed extract at the > > same > > time. I recently began taking Fossilized Coral, and have been > > ASTOUNDED at how much better I'm feeling. The energy levels are > > just > > fantastic, and my general feeling of well being is greatly improved. > > > > I am still, after 10 years of being through the ringer with > > diagnoses > > and side effects from meds, doing quite well. Still have high CD4 > > counts, and an undetectable viral load. Hang in there, and keep a > > POSITIVE ATTITUDE. > >)==============Hi tdh58,............I see use the t-cell and viral counts >as indicators of health - however.....are these ultimately reliable >guides? I just got Maggiores book, "What if everything you >thought you knew about AIDS was wrong?' I am currently in this phase of >my experience in hiv-ville getting my counts done every 3 months or less >- just as an experimental stage for myself. My question to those who hold >that these tests are useless, more or less - what if anything can these >tests tell us in reality as far as being a guage or indicator of our >actual state of health or any other conditions of concern??? I would hold >that these tests must hold some indicative quality and worth about them >that can be used, regardless of opposing viewpoints and findings from >various camps. So.......what can those of you have have thoroughly >studied the validity of these tests share with us who are on a regular >schedule of getting our counts done??? I go in tomorrow actually to get >my 3rd results of t-cell. v-load counts. My condition of hives has left >me for several days now - I took some niacin and had the flushing effect >real bad - after that wore off I never had hives again. Maybe the >cleansing power of the niacin opened up and cleared some toxins trapped >in some of my blood vessels and flushed them out. who knows. Now >please.....anyone help with my questions above? > Also - Ted, my cheap rebounder has broken 2 of its springs - I've had >it with cheapies! Let me know your web-site again and I will also check >out other places for a good quality/good price rebounder. Things are a >little tight right now.....so I must be thrifty. > Also....sometime back I asked a question about anal sex and STD >transmission, the effectiveness of condoms, etc. Not one reply! Imagine >that. Oh well. > > >thanks all! > > >paul > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

>

>---------------------------------

>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I agree there may be something to the receptive anal thing, but do you think it is primarily when semen is exchanged-- and/or other contaminants introduced more directly into the blood stream? If it is the semen, then I think it might have more to do with the numbers of partners and varieties of semen interacting with other contaminants. The reason I asked you about Fred's paper is because he addresses all of these issues. For example, anal sex has been around for a lot longer than the clinical reclassification of 29 previously known and mostly unrelated 'AIDS' illnesses. So, not sure what you mean about looking for a single 'cure' or treatment for 29 different illnesses called 'AIDS.' I don't accept, and neither does authentic Alternative Medicine, the conventionally or medically correct disease catagagories. Although I now fully understand, and I think you do too, that 'HIV' non-specific antibody response is no indicator of anything-- sometimes it is hard to address our fears of losing 'HIV.' I'm mean, it's either not a uniquely identified/purified retrovirus or, like most other retroviruses, cannot cause anything on it's own-- but is merely a harmless HERV[Human Endogenous RetroVirus]. All of us have 'em as 1-10% of our DNA is estimated to be made up of them even according to AIDS Apologist Scientists.

So, as long as one believes one has "it" or one needs to treat or cure "it" as a single, unified entity-- instead of the multifactorially influenced set of stressors which can cause illness or "immune dysfunction" in anyone who lives in toxic environments, including acceptance of such a failed and flawed misdiagnosis of worth or wellness-- one will continue to fight themselves or their view of themselves. That's what I would like to discuss, how we address the fear of losing 'HIV' and 'AIDS' and why we apparently feel or felt marked and scared...

Wennerberg <davidwennerberg@...> wrote:

,

Yes, I had read Fred Cline's excellent 'history of anal sex' - very interesting indeed.

In the end, I think the frequency of receptive anal intercourse may be a distinguishing factor between being tolerated or unhealthy for the body. I also believe that any extra burden to an immune system already taxed from prescribed and recreational drug consumption and the continual onslaught of infections and illnesses from STDs, would be best minimized.

In this light, I think that the potential harm caused by receptive anal intercourse is probably better avoided or at least approached with caution and understanding.

When the real causes of AIDS are uncovered, I think we will find it to be the result of many simultaneous factors that disrupt or impair the immune system. Lets hope the time is near.

>From: Landis

>Reply-cures for AIDS

>cures for AIDS

>Subject: A Second Look At Anal Sex and 'Safe Sex'

>Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:28:01 -0800 (PST)

>

>

>,

>

>I agree with you about Ts and VLs, but not completely on the anal sex part. Although it isn't necessary to express same-sexual love in such a way-- to say it is inherently unhealthy is problematic for my spirituality. Check out the highlighted article for a somewhat ranting history of Anal Sex by Fred Cline.

>

>Perhaps we should consider alternative health ways for cleansing anally and in other ways.

>

>There is an excellent book I used to have called Anal Health Handbook, anyone heard of it?

>

>Natural Hygeine http://go.to/sfalk

>

>Knowledge is the Cure http://www.knowledgeisthecure.com

>

>I propose a reappraisal of what is called 'safe-sex' into what might be called 'sanitary' and 'sacred' sex. Although, assuming other STDs exist-- though some dispute the whole virus/germ theory which Alternative Medicine has long questioned-- condoms and lube are a risk for those who have multipartnered anal sex. Some of the Dissident Scientists who have raised these issues have been accused of homophobia, though most are clearly not. Lifestyle is no monolithic stereotype among gay men, yet we all know what "messy" is.

>

>

>

>Safe Sex

>

>Latex, Condoms, Spermicide, Nonoxynol-9

>

>---------------------------------

>

> Lauritsen, 'Latex Lunacy'

> Herbert Ratner, 'Semen and Health'

> Fred Cline, 'A Second Look at Anal Sex and "AIDS"'

> Byrnes,'Benzene, Lubricants and AIDS'

> Associate Press, 'Spermicide Linked to Infections in Women'

> Bohdan Zachary, 'Nonoxynol-9: Better Safe Than Sorry?'

> Bob Roehr, 'Is Nonoxynol-9 an HIV Risk?'

> Martha Brannigan, 'Spermicide Made by Columbia Labs Fails to Stop HIV'

> Maggie Fox, 'Spermicide Worsens HIV Risk '

> ANC Today, 'HIV/AIDS, Profit and Fundamental Human Rights'

> Bruce Berlow, 'The Newest Epidemic: Latex Allergies'

> Amy Behrman, 'Latex Allergy'

> Celia Farber, 'Unprotected'

> Christian Fiala, 'Epidemiological Evidence Against Prevention-Campaigns'

> Will Dunham, 'Experts Defend Condoms Despite US Gov't Report'

> The Physicians Consortium, 'Press Release'

>

>More about latex allergies, more about barebacking.

>

>

> Wennerberg wrote: Regarding the tests (viral load, t-cell), there is so much debate among the experts that I have come to the conclusion that the tests are worth while only to the medical, pharmaceutical and AIDS industries to keep the AIDS machine rolling. Once I gave up on these tests, I no longer had AIDS. For me, my AIDS diagnosis was because of t-cell counts and a positive AIDS test result. I have never had an illness linked to the supposed HIV. The only reason I started to get sick was because of the meds I was prescribed to combat the supposed HIV. I stopped the meds and my physical health returned. I stopped the 'tests' and my psychological health returned. Simple as that. My personal research has taught me that the t-cell test is not indicative of health. The blood is not an accurate way of determining t-cell activity since the amount of t-cells in the blood is minimal. Beside blood being the wrong vehicle to detect t-cell counts, high t-cell counts indicate an active immune system dealing with a toxic body - not a healthy immune system or a healthy body. From what I have come to learn, the viral load test is complete and utter nonsense when used to detect the supposed HIV. The viral load test uses the PCR technique which basically super amplifies viral particles; good for forensic science, useless for HIV viral load detection. A good analogy of the test is: PCR is like looking for a needle in a haystack by turning the haystack into needles. The inventor of PCR has publicly stated that the test can not/should not be used to detect HIV. At best, it only detects viral particles (which may or may not be the supposed HIV), not whole virus. Going back to square one: we can not link viral particles to a virus that has never been isolated. What could we look for is we don't know what it (HIV) looks like? I am surprised that this test is still administered. Regarding anal sex, condoms and STDs. Personally, I think anal sex is unhealthy. The trauma to the anus and rectum caused by anal intercourse can only lead to trouble. Adding synthetic elements (condoms) to this sensitive area is sure to cause problems. Latex is toxic to the body. The wall of the rectum is very thin and serves as a direct route to the blood stream. The tears that result from penetration in this area allow the synthetic material found in condoms, STDs, semen (a super potent antigen) and fecal matter to enter the blood stream in a big way. Again, this can not be healthy. As a gay male, this is my personal opinion. >From: freelightexpress@... >Reply-cures for AIDS >cures for AIDS >Subject: the counts - are they useful? >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:28:27 -0800 > > > >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:41 -0000 "tdh58" writes: > > > > Hi lotuslady.... I just wanted to respond to your question about > > Cat's Claw, or in Spanish "Una De Gato". I started taking Cat's > > claw > > 7 years ago, and saw an almost immediate response in my CD4 counts > > and viral load. My T cells immediately began to rise, and my viral > > load started falling. I've been taking it ever since, and plan to > > continue forever. I also began taking grape seed extract at the > > same > > time. I recently began taking Fossilized Coral, and have been > > ASTOUNDED at how much better I'm feeling. The energy levels are > > just > > fantastic, and my general feeling of well being is greatly improved. > > > > I am still, after 10 years of being through the ringer with > > diagnoses > > and side effects from meds, doing quite well. Still have high CD4 > > counts, and an undetectable viral load. Hang in there, and keep a > > POSITIVE ATTITUDE. > >)==============Hi tdh58,............I see use the t-cell and viral counts >as indicators of health - however.....are these ultimately reliable >guides? I just got Maggiores book, "What if everything you >thought you knew about AIDS was wrong?' I am currently in this phase of >my experience in hiv-ville getting my counts done every 3 months or less >- just as an experimental stage for myself. My question to those who hold >that these tests are useless, more or less - what if anything can these >tests tell us in reality as far as being a guage or indicator of our >actual state of health or any other conditions of concern??? I would hold >that these tests must hold some indicative quality and worth about them >that can be used, regardless of opposing viewpoints and findings from >various camps. So.......what can those of you have have thoroughly >studied the validity of these tests share with us who are on a regular >schedule of getting our counts done??? I go in tomorrow actually to get >my 3rd results of t-cell. v-load counts. My condition of hives has left >me for several days now - I took some niacin and had the flushing effect >real bad - after that wore off I never had hives again. Maybe the >cleansing power of the niacin opened up and cleared some toxins trapped >in some of my blood vessels and flushed them out. who knows. Now >please.....anyone help with my questions above? > Also - Ted, my cheap rebounder has broken 2 of its springs - I've had >it with cheapies! Let me know your web-site again and I will also check >out other places for a good quality/good price rebounder. Things are a >little tight right now.....so I must be thrifty. > Also....sometime back I asked a question about anal sex and STD >transmission, the effectiveness of condoms, etc. Not one reply! Imagine >that. Oh well. > > >thanks all! > > >paul > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

>

>---------------------------------

>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I do believe that the frequency of anal intercourse from many different contacts to be a contributing factor to immune system decline on the receptive end. I think that semen is probably the most potent of the many contaminants encountered during unprotected anal intercourse. In my logic, I think that semen must be strong enough to survive the defenses of any immune system that encounters it, so that life can continue. Constant bombardment of this strong substance, especially directly into the blood stream, may be part of what creates the AIDS problem and perhaps even colon/cervical cancer.

Anal sex (re: Cline's article) may have been around forever, but the combination of anal intercourse with recreation/prescription drug overuse and abuse, along with the lifestyle that usually goes along with it, has not. I am convinced that HIV, if it exists at all, could not be the cause of the condition we have come to call AIDS. I am also convinced that AIDS could not be the result of a single factor, especially a retrovirus. The closest I have come to reading anything that seemed logical from experts who are trained in such things is Duesberg's drug/AIDS hypothesis. In his work and research, I think he also believes that the frequent introduction of semen into the bloodstream to be one of the many contributing factor leading to the AIDS condition. I believe, as Duesberg does, that AIDS is caused by multiple factors simultaneously assaulting the immune system over a period of time.

>From: Landis

>Reply-cures for AIDS

>cures for AIDS

>Subject: Re: A Second Look At Anal Sex and 'Safe Sex'

>Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:12:14 -0800 (PST)

>

>

> ,

>I agree there may be something to the receptive anal thing, but do you think it is primarily when semen is exchanged-- and/or other contaminants introduced more directly into the blood stream? If it is the semen, then I think it might have more to do with the numbers of partners and varieties of semen interacting with other contaminants.

>The reason I asked you about Fred's paper is because he addresses all of these issues. For example, anal sex has been around for a lot longer than the clinical reclassification of 29 previously known and mostly unrelated 'AIDS' illnesses. So, not sure what you mean about looking for a single 'cure' or treatment for 29 different illnesses called 'AIDS.' I don't accept, and neither does authentic Alternative Medicine, the conventionally or medically correct disease catagagories. Although I now fully understand, and I think you do too, that 'HIV' non-specific antibody response is no indicator of anything-- sometimes it is hard to address our fears of losing 'HIV.' I'm mean, it's either not a uniquely identified/purified retrovirus or, like most other retroviruses, cannot cause anything on it's own-- but is merely a harmless HERV[Human Endogenous RetroVirus]. All of us have 'em as 1-10% of our DNA is estimated to be made up of them even according to AIDS Apologist Scientists.

>So, as long as one believes one has "it" or one needs to treat or cure "it" as a single, unified entity-- instead of the multifactorially influenced set of stressors which can cause illness or "immune dysfunction" in anyone who lives in toxic environments, including acceptance of such a failed and flawed misdiagnosis of worth or wellness-- one will continue to fight themselves or their view of themselves. That's what I would like to discuss, how we address the fear of losing 'HIV' and 'AIDS' and why we apparently feel or felt marked and scared...

>

> Wennerberg wrote:

>,

>

>Yes, I had read Fred Cline's excellent 'history of anal sex' - very interesting indeed.

>

>In the end, I think the frequency of receptive anal intercourse may be a distinguishing factor between being tolerated or unhealthy for the body. I also believe that any extra burden to an immune system already taxed from prescribed and recreational drug consumption and the continual onslaught of infections and illnesses from STDs, would be best minimized.

>

>In this light, I think that the potential harm caused by receptive anal intercourse is probably better avoided or at least approached with caution and understanding.

>

>When the real causes of AIDS are uncovered, I think we will find it to be the result of many simultaneous factors that disrupt or impair the immune system. Lets hope the time is near.

> >From: Landis >Reply-cures for AIDS >cures for AIDS >Subject: A Second Look At Anal Sex and 'Safe Sex' >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:28:01 -0800 (PST) > > >, > >I agree with you about Ts and VLs, but not completely on the anal sex part. Although it isn't necessary to express same-sexual love in such a way-- to say it is inherently unhealthy is problematic for my spirituality. Check out the highlighted article for a somewhat ranting history of Anal Sex by Fred Cline. > >Perhaps we should consider alternative health ways for cleansing anally and in other ways. > >There is an excellent book I used to have called Anal Health Handbook, anyone heard of it? > >Natural Hygeine http://go.to/sfalk > >Knowledge is the Cure http://www.knowledgeisthecure.com > >I propose a reappraisal of what is called 'safe-sex' into what might be called 'sanitary' and 'sacred' sex. Although, assuming other STDs exist-- though some dispute the whole virus/germ theory which Alternative Medicine has long questioned-- condoms and lube are a risk for those who have multipartnered anal sex. Some of the Dissident Scientists who have raised these issues have been accused of homophobia, though most are clearly not. Lifestyle is no monolithic stereotype among gay men, yet we all know what "messy" is. > > > >Safe Sex > >Latex, Condoms, Spermicide, Nonoxynol-9 > >--------------------------------- > > Lauritsen, 'Latex Lunacy' > Herbert Ratner, 'Semen and Health' > Fred Cline, 'A Second Look at Anal Sex and "AIDS"' > Byrnes,'Benzene, Lubricants and AIDS' > Associate Press, 'Spermicide Linked to Infections in Women' > Bohdan Zachary, 'Nonoxynol-9: Better Safe Than Sorry?' > Bob Roehr, 'Is Nonoxynol-9 an HIV Risk?' > Martha Brannigan, 'Spermicide Made by Columbia Labs Fails to Stop HIV' > Maggie Fox, 'Spermicide Worsens HIV Risk ' > ANC Today, 'HIV/AIDS, Profit and Fundamental Human Rights' > Bruce Berlow, 'The Newest Epidemic: Latex Allergies' > Amy Behrman, 'Latex Allergy' > Celia Farber, 'Unprotected' > Christian Fiala, 'Epidemiological Evidence Against Prevention-Campaigns' > Will Dunham, 'Experts Defend Condoms Despite US Gov't Report' > The Physicians Consortium, 'Press Release' > >More about latex allergies, more about barebacking. > > > Wennerberg wrote: Regarding the tests (viral load, t-cell), there is so much debate among the experts that I have come to the conclusion that the tests are worth while only to the medical, pharmaceutical and AIDS industries to keep the AIDS machine rolling. Once I gave up on these tests, I no longer had AIDS. For me, my AIDS diagnosis was because of t-cell counts and a positive AIDS test result. I have never had an illness linked to the supposed HIV. The only reason I started to get sick was because of the meds I was prescribed to combat the supposed HIV. I stopped the meds and my physical health returned. I stopped the 'tests' and my psychological health returned. Simple as that. My personal research has taught me that the t-cell test is not indicative of health. The blood is not an accurate way of determining t-cell activity since the amount of t-cells in the blood is minimal. Beside blood being the wrong vehicle to detect t-cell counts, high t-cell counts indicate an active immune system dealing with a toxic body - not a healthy immune system or a healthy body. From what I have come to learn, the viral load test is complete and utter nonsense when used to detect the supposed HIV. The viral load test uses the PCR technique which basically super amplifies viral particles; good for forensic science, useless for HIV viral load detection. A good analogy of the test is: PCR is like looking for a needle in a haystack by turning the haystack into needles. The inventor of PCR has publicly stated that the test can not/should not be used to detect HIV. At best, it only detects viral particles (which may or may not be the supposed HIV), not whole virus. Going back to square one: we can not link viral particles to a virus that has never been isolated. What could we look for is we don't know what it (HIV) looks like? I am surprised that this test is still administered. Regarding anal sex, condoms and STDs. Personally, I think anal sex is unhealthy. The trauma to the anus and rectum caused by anal intercourse can only lead to trouble. Adding synthetic elements (condoms) to this sensitive area is sure to cause problems. Latex is toxic to the body. The wall of the rectum is very thin and serves as a direct route to the blood stream. The tears that result from penetration in this area allow the synthetic material found in condoms, STDs, semen (a super potent antigen) and fecal matter to enter the blood stream in a big way. Again, this can not be healthy. As a gay male, this is my personal opinion. >From: freelightexpress@... >Reply-cures for AIDS >cures for AIDS >Subject: the counts - are they useful? >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:28:27 -0800 > > > >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:41 -0000 "tdh58" writes: > > > > Hi lotuslady.... I just wanted to respond to your question about > > Cat's Claw, or in Spanish "Una De Gato". I started taking Cat's > > claw > > 7 years ago, and saw an almost immediate response in my CD4 counts > > and viral load. My T cells immediately began to rise, and my viral > > load started falling. I've been taking it ever since, and plan to > > continue forever. I also began taking grape seed extract at the > > same > > time. I recently began taking Fossilized Coral, and have been > > ASTOUNDED at how much better I'm feeling. The energy levels are > > just > > fantastic, and my general feeling of well being is greatly improved. > > > > I am still, after 10 years of being through the ringer with > > diagnoses > > and side effects from meds, doing quite well. Still have high CD4 > > counts, and an undetectable viral load. Hang in there, and keep a > > POSITIVE ATTITUDE. > >)==============Hi tdh58,............I see use the t-cell and viral counts >as indicators of health - however.....are these ultimately reliable >guides? I just got Maggiores book, "What if everything you >thought you knew about AIDS was wrong?' I am currently in this phase of >my experience in hiv-ville getting my counts done every 3 months or less >- just as an experimental stage for myself. My question to those who hold >that these tests are useless, more or less - what if anything can these >tests tell us in reality as far as being a guage or indicator of our >actual state of health or any other conditions of concern??? I would hold >that these tests must hold some indicative quality and worth about them >that can be used, regardless of opposing viewpoints and findings from >various camps. So.......what can those of you have have thoroughly >studied the validity of these tests share with us who are on a regular >schedule of getting our counts done??? I go in tomorrow actually to get >my 3rd results of t-cell. v-load counts. My condition of hives has left >me for several days now - I took some niacin and had the flushing effect >real bad - after that wore off I never had hives again. Maybe the >cleansing power of the niacin opened up and cleared some toxins trapped >in some of my blood vessels and flushed them out. who knows. Now >please.....anyone help with my questions above? > Also - Ted, my cheap rebounder has broken 2 of its springs - I've had >it with cheapies! Let me know your web-site again and I will also check >out other places for a good quality/good price rebounder. Things are a >little tight right now.....so I must be thrifty. > Also....sometime back I asked a question about anal sex and STD >transmission, the effectiveness of condoms, etc. Not one reply! Imagine >that. Oh well. > > >thanks all! > > >paul > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >--------------------------------- >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, I know that a pregnant woman's immune system is suppressed because the embryo is developing. I think some homophobes try to make the case that same-sexual=sin=sickness, and that I profoundly disagree with from my understanding and rescue of judeo-christian tradition and scripture. I agree that it is multi-factorial, and do not, therefore concentrate on one such factor in isolation. Most gays exchange semen and do not experience illness. In the modern day we have poluted our environment so that many plant, animal and human species are experiencing immune dysfunction. They call it something different, though it's essentially the same thing. You didn't comment on one thing Fred said, which was that. I encourage people to read other dissident scientific papers, besides just Duesberg. I think others, especially Dr. o Giraldo, have improved on the drug/aids hypothesis. He is currently the president of The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis and his personal URL is http://www.robertogiraldo.com ['Co-Factors as Co-Causes' is basically his theme]

Also, the index of Virus Myth http://www.virusmyth.net/aids.index.htm

Wennerberg <davidwennerberg@...> wrote:

,

I do believe that the frequency of anal intercourse from many different contacts to be a contributing factor to immune system decline on the receptive end. I think that semen is probably the most potent of the many contaminants encountered during unprotected anal intercourse. In my logic, I think that semen must be strong enough to survive the defenses of any immune system that encounters it, so that life can continue. Constant bombardment of this strong substance, especially directly into the blood stream, may be part of what creates the AIDS problem and perhaps even colon/cervical cancer.

Anal sex (re: Cline's article) may have been around forever, but the combination of anal intercourse with recreation/prescription drug overuse and abuse, along with the lifestyle that usually goes along with it, has not. I am convinced that HIV, if it exists at all, could not be the cause of the condition we have come to call AIDS. I am also convinced that AIDS could not be the result of a single factor, especially a retrovirus. The closest I have come to reading anything that seemed logical from experts who are trained in such things is Duesberg's drug/AIDS hypothesis. In his work and research, I think he also believes that the frequent introduction of semen into the bloodstream to be one of the many contributing factor leading to the AIDS condition. I believe, as Duesberg does, that AIDS is caused by multiple factors simultaneously assaulting the immune system over a period of time.

>From: Landis

>Reply-cures for AIDS

>cures for AIDS

>Subject: Re: A Second Look At Anal Sex and 'Safe Sex'

>Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:12:14 -0800 (PST)

>

>

> ,

>I agree there may be something to the receptive anal thing, but do you think it is primarily when semen is exchanged-- and/or other contaminants introduced more directly into the blood stream? If it is the semen, then I think it might have more to do with the numbers of partners and varieties of semen interacting with other contaminants.

>The reason I asked you about Fred's paper is because he addresses all of these issues. For example, anal sex has been around for a lot longer than the clinical reclassification of 29 previously known and mostly unrelated 'AIDS' illnesses. So, not sure what you mean about looking for a single 'cure' or treatment for 29 different illnesses called 'AIDS.' I don't accept, and neither does authentic Alternative Medicine, the conventionally or medically correct disease catagagories. Although I now fully understand, and I think you do too, that 'HIV' non-specific antibody response is no indicator of anything-- sometimes it is hard to address our fears of losing 'HIV.' I'm mean, it's either not a uniquely identified/purified retrovirus or, like most other retroviruses, cannot cause anything on it's own-- but is merely a harmless HERV[Human Endogenous RetroVirus]. All of us have 'em as 1-10% of our DNA is estimated to be made up of them even according to AIDS Apologist Scientists.

>So, as long as one believes one has "it" or one needs to treat or cure "it" as a single, unified entity-- instead of the multifactorially influenced set of stressors which can cause illness or "immune dysfunction" in anyone who lives in toxic environments, including acceptance of such a failed and flawed misdiagnosis of worth or wellness-- one will continue to fight themselves or their view of themselves. That's what I would like to discuss, how we address the fear of losing 'HIV' and 'AIDS' and why we apparently feel or felt marked and scared...

>

> Wennerberg wrote:

>,

>

>Yes, I had read Fred Cline's excellent 'history of anal sex' - very interesting indeed.

>

>In the end, I think the frequency of receptive anal intercourse may be a distinguishing factor between being tolerated or unhealthy for the body. I also believe that any extra burden to an immune system already taxed from prescribed and recreational drug consumption and the continual onslaught of infections and illnesses from STDs, would be best minimized.

>

>In this light, I think that the potential harm caused by receptive anal intercourse is probably better avoided or at least approached with caution and understanding.

>

>When the real causes of AIDS are uncovered, I think we will find it to be the result of many simultaneous factors that disrupt or impair the immune system. Lets hope the time is near.

> >From: Landis >Reply-cures for AIDS >cures for AIDS >Subject: A Second Look At Anal Sex and 'Safe Sex' >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:28:01 -0800 (PST) > > >, > >I agree with you about Ts and VLs, but not completely on the anal sex part. Although it isn't necessary to express same-sexual love in such a way-- to say it is inherently unhealthy is problematic for my spirituality. Check out the highlighted article for a somewhat ranting history of Anal Sex by Fred Cline. > >Perhaps we should consider alternative health ways for cleansing anally and in other ways. > >There is an excellent book I used to have called Anal Health Handbook, anyone heard of it? > >Natural Hygeine http://go.to/sfalk > >Knowledge is the Cure http://www.knowledgeisthecure.com > >I propose a reappraisal of what is called 'safe-sex' into what might be called 'sanitary' and 'sacred' sex. Although, assuming other STDs exist-- though some dispute the whole virus/germ theory which Alternative Medicine has long questioned-- condoms and lube are a risk for those who have multipartnered anal sex. Some of the Dissident Scientists who have raised these issues have been accused of homophobia, though most are clearly not. Lifestyle is no monolithic stereotype among gay men, yet we all know what "messy" is. > > > >Safe Sex > >Latex, Condoms, Spermicide, Nonoxynol-9 > >--------------------------------- > > Lauritsen, 'Latex Lunacy' > Herbert Ratner, 'Semen and Health' > Fred Cline, 'A Second Look at Anal Sex and "AIDS"' > Byrnes,'Benzene, Lubricants and AIDS' > Associate Press, 'Spermicide Linked to Infections in Women' > Bohdan Zachary, 'Nonoxynol-9: Better Safe Than Sorry?' > Bob Roehr, 'Is Nonoxynol-9 an HIV Risk?' > Martha Brannigan, 'Spermicide Made by Columbia Labs Fails to Stop HIV' > Maggie Fox, 'Spermicide Worsens HIV Risk ' > ANC Today, 'HIV/AIDS, Profit and Fundamental Human Rights' > Bruce Berlow, 'The Newest Epidemic: Latex Allergies' > Amy Behrman, 'Latex Allergy' > Celia Farber, 'Unprotected' > Christian Fiala, 'Epidemiological Evidence Against Prevention-Campaigns' > Will Dunham, 'Experts Defend Condoms Despite US Gov't Report' > The Physicians Consortium, 'Press Release' > >More about latex allergies, more about barebacking. > > > Wennerberg wrote: Regarding the tests (viral load, t-cell), there is so much debate among the experts that I have come to the conclusion that the tests are worth while only to the medical, pharmaceutical and AIDS industries to keep the AIDS machine rolling. Once I gave up on these tests, I no longer had AIDS. For me, my AIDS diagnosis was because of t-cell counts and a positive AIDS test result. I have never had an illness linked to the supposed HIV. The only reason I started to get sick was because of the meds I was prescribed to combat the supposed HIV. I stopped the meds and my physical health returned. I stopped the 'tests' and my psychological health returned. Simple as that. My personal research has taught me that the t-cell test is not indicative of health. The blood is not an accurate way of determining t-cell activity since the amount of t-cells in the blood is minimal. Beside blood being the wrong vehicle to detect t-cell counts, high t-cell counts indicate an active immune system dealing with a toxic body - not a healthy immune system or a healthy body. From what I have come to learn, the viral load test is complete and utter nonsense when used to detect the supposed HIV. The viral load test uses the PCR technique which basically super amplifies viral particles; good for forensic science, useless for HIV viral load detection. A good analogy of the test is: PCR is like looking for a needle in a haystack by turning the haystack into needles. The inventor of PCR has publicly stated that the test can not/should not be used to detect HIV. At best, it only detects viral particles (which may or may not be the supposed HIV), not whole virus. Going back to square one: we can not link viral particles to a virus that has never been isolated. What could we look for is we don't know what it (HIV) looks like? I am surprised that this test is still administered. Regarding anal sex, condoms and STDs. Personally, I think anal sex is unhealthy. The trauma to the anus and rectum caused by anal intercourse can only lead to trouble. Adding synthetic elements (condoms) to this sensitive area is sure to cause problems. Latex is toxic to the body. The wall of the rectum is very thin and serves as a direct route to the blood stream. The tears that result from penetration in this area allow the synthetic material found in condoms, STDs, semen (a super potent antigen) and fecal matter to enter the blood stream in a big way. Again, this can not be healthy. As a gay male, this is my personal opinion. >From: freelightexpress@... >Reply-cures for AIDS >cures for AIDS >Subject: the counts - are they useful? >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:28:27 -0800 > > > >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:21:41 -0000 "tdh58" writes: > > > > Hi lotuslady.... I just wanted to respond to your question about > > Cat's Claw, or in Spanish "Una De Gato". I started taking Cat's > > claw > > 7 years ago, and saw an almost immediate response in my CD4 counts > > and viral load. My T cells immediately began to rise, and my viral > > load started falling. I've been taking it ever since, and plan to > > continue forever. I also began taking grape seed extract at the > > same > > time. I recently began taking Fossilized Coral, and have been > > ASTOUNDED at how much better I'm feeling. The energy levels are > > just > > fantastic, and my general feeling of well being is greatly improved. > > > > I am still, after 10 years of being through the ringer with > > diagnoses > > and side effects from meds, doing quite well. Still have high CD4 > > counts, and an undetectable viral load. Hang in there, and keep a > > POSITIVE ATTITUDE. > >)==============Hi tdh58,............I see use the t-cell and viral counts >as indicators of health - however.....are these ultimately reliable >guides? I just got Maggiores book, "What if everything you >thought you knew about AIDS was wrong?' I am currently in this phase of >my experience in hiv-ville getting my counts done every 3 months or less >- just as an experimental stage for myself. My question to those who hold >that these tests are useless, more or less - what if anything can these >tests tell us in reality as far as being a guage or indicator of our >actual state of health or any other conditions of concern??? I would hold >that these tests must hold some indicative quality and worth about them >that can be used, regardless of opposing viewpoints and findings from >various camps. So.......what can those of you have have thoroughly >studied the validity of these tests share with us who are on a regular >schedule of getting our counts done??? I go in tomorrow actually to get >my 3rd results of t-cell. v-load counts. My condition of hives has left >me for several days now - I took some niacin and had the flushing effect >real bad - after that wore off I never had hives again. Maybe the >cleansing power of the niacin opened up and cleared some toxins trapped >in some of my blood vessels and flushed them out. who knows. Now >please.....anyone help with my questions above? > Also - Ted, my cheap rebounder has broken 2 of its springs - I've had >it with cheapies! Let me know your web-site again and I will also check >out other places for a good quality/good price rebounder. Things are a >little tight right now.....so I must be thrifty. > Also....sometime back I asked a question about anal sex and STD >transmission, the effectiveness of condoms, etc. Not one reply! Imagine >that. Oh well. > > >thanks all! > > >paul > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >--------------------------------- >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. > >

[Guest guest]

I have to say that anal sex would probably be damaging to the immune system to some degree without protection. The colon very easily absorbs substances including proteins into the bloodstream. These are foreign proteins that would cause some dissaray in our immune system. The only creatures that can absorb proteins of all sorts without compromise to its own immune system are carnivorous plants like the venus fly trap. So though I think anal sex is great, I do think that it's better to use protection and keep the body from absorbing foreign proteins that it can't kill within the anal tract. Even vaginal fluid has acid to defend itself to some extent, as well as stomach acid and saliva. Not so with anal sex.

That's my wild ass guess anyway.

Cheers!

Caer

[Guest guest]

Yes Caer, But have you read the referenced article about Anal Sex by Fred Cline? Anal sex has been going on forever, and no major immune compromise outbreak. And then if you want to have safe sex, how do you justify using latex products, including condoms and lube which have many known carcinogens and were never approved by the FDA for internal use? Gay men have been experiencing astronomical increases in rates of anal cancer since the introduction of condoms and lube during the 'safe sex' era. Just asking you to think about it, I don't think it is as simple an issue as some suggest.

caerfree <caerfree@...> wrote:

I have to say that anal sex would probably be damaging to the immune system to some degree without protection. The colon very easily absorbs substances including proteins into the bloodstream. These are foreign proteins that would cause some dissaray in our immune system. The only creatures that can absorb proteins of all sorts without compromise to its own immune system are carnivorous plants like the venus fly trap. So though I think anal sex is great, I do think that it's better to use protection and keep the body from absorbing foreign proteins that it can't kill within the anal tract. Even vaginal fluid has acid to defend itself to some extent, as well as stomach acid and saliva. Not so with anal sex.

That's my wild ass guess anyway.

Cheers!

CaerRead AIDS-Cured

[Guest guest]

,

Probably. Nothing is really ever "as simple" unfortunately. I had a suspicion that all the chemicals they put on condoms wasn't a good thing. I'll check out that article. I still think that it's a bad idea to introduce too many foreign proteins to the body. Even red meat provides quite a few complications if you eat too much of it.

As to history, it is hard to say. 200 years ago, people were still dying of tooth decay and other diseases that we don't deal with now. It's very hard to mark history when things change so much. Life is so very different now. It's hard to draw definite conclusions when things keep changing.

I think that probably the best phrase to keep in mind in all of this is "All things in moderation." Nobody will ever know all of the answers.

Thanks for the info!

Caer