Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in Kenya)/Geoff

[Guest guest]

Once again Caroline I must thank you for your input. I agree with you we are

supposed to be discussing and that is we are put off with the agression and

the use of violent and harsh language in the discussion. It is totally

uncalled for. Words like religious and scientific imperialism is not the

issue at all when we point out reality.

I just wanted to point out that the risk of HIV infection is higer in anal

intercourse than vaginal intercourse. The risk is also higher in younger

girls of 14 - 19 for precisely the same reason that the vaginal mucosa is

still young and tender and easy to tear. It is easy to brush al this aside

and say the solution is the condom. But it has also been shown that correct

use of condoms is less than 20% and so even with the use of condoms there

risk in more than 80% of people who pupport to be using the condom

Harsh reality in Africa also is poverty. Those who engage in sex be it homo

or heterosexual are sometimes presssed to do so. Many of our young

university going youth do so out of need rather than pleasure because they

cannot afford the fees and upkeep. There are many Kenyan youth who have used

this " ticket " to travel abroad for further studies or greener pastures,

because the other partner has means to keep them, but they lament being in

it. This is a large reality and ways have to be found to alleviate this

rather than brushing it aside as consenting adults. Of course they are

consenting adults but what is the basic reason behind the consent.

What we condemn is the fact that those who promote and finance this form of

sex do so knowingly, and that is pervert as you say. It may look like

consenting adults but they do not like it and they feel guilty about it.

Dr. Mohamed Abdullah

Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International

(in

> >Kenya)/Geoff

> >Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 05:30:27 -0400

> >

> >

> >At 09:10 PM 10/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > >Dear ,

> > >

> > >Thank you for your compliments.

> > >

> > >Speaking out is everyone's right. I can not stop people from

speaking out

> >at

> > >all.

> >

> >Likewise. Why should we wish to? (Unless people are speaking out

demanding

> >the harming or killing of another group as in Rwanda.)

> >

> > >Like Dr. Abdullah put it to you, I do not believe the biological

part of

> > >homosexuality because if it was the case we would not be having

all these

> > >counter debates.

> >

> >I have no idea what you mean.

> >

> > >The simple question to you

> >

> >Ah--you raise several questions.

> >

> > > and your colleagues is 'Why did

> > >the majority of people in the universe embrace the hetersexual

practice

> > >right from creation of the first being and not homosexuality?

> >

> >

> >You were there? What first being? A diatom? A bonobo? Diatoms

don't give a

> >fig for heterosexuality. Bonobos seem to enjoy all sorts of

permutations

> >and indeed are less aggressive.

> >

> > >Who corrupted

> > >the whole process of having an even and balanced share for both?

Why

> >don't

> > >we have at at least a single country in the world exclusively for

> > >homosexuality where hetrosexuality would probably be seen as

oppressed

> >and

> > >discriminated against?

> >

> >What a bizarre set of questions! Universe--well, let's talk about

planet

> >Earth. There is a LOT more to the Universe.

> >

> >I don't know who corrupted the process. What process do you mean?

What was

> >the corruption? Too many heterosexuals? What does corruption refer

to?

> >Look, some of my best friends are hetero and I don't think they're

corrupt!

> >

> >It's like asking why did most people on the planet wind up Asian.

> >

> >Look inside yourself. I presume you are attracted to the opposite

sex.

> >EVERY person of the opposite sex? Or just some? You know that

feeling you

> >get of longing, of startled awe at beauty, that rush of blood to

the loins

> >that some individuals inspire?

> >

> >That is what some of us naturally feel for some members of the

same gender.

> >Is that induced by choice? By nature? By nurture?

> >

> >I don't think that's even a relevant or important question. But I

can say,

> >the instinctual and delighted response is perfectly natural and

doesn't

> >feel to me like I chose it.

> >

> >

> > >snip

> > >Let us all listen to each other's view but above all respect

people's

> > >culture. Iam aware of the changing society but culture does not

die out.

> >It

> > >goes through different levels with a lot of challenges but it's

so strong

> > >that it can not be wiped out.

> >

> >Nonsense. I'm not suggesting a culture SHOULD be wiped out ever.

It is sad

> >when that happens. But cultures do die. And mutate. And transform.

> >

> >On the other hand, some ASPECTS of cultures should be allowed to

pass.

> >Female circumcision. Denying women the right to vote. Slavery.

Oppression

> >of any kind.

> >

> > >That is the background of all this resistence

> > >and disagreement with you on the homosexuality idealogy. Feel

free to

> > >practice your homosexuality but avoid any temptation to promote

it. I

> > >repeat. Keep it personal. The struggle continues.

> >

> >Of course it is personal. If by that you mean I should be silent,

I cannot

> >ever agree to that.

> >

> >And I will stand by my lesbian and gay friends and supporters in

Africa and

> >anywhere in the world. No culture has the right to justify its

existence as

> >a tool of oppression. If that's your idea of culture, then I

suggest it is

> >mistaken.

> > M.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on

how to

> get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

http://www./group/

http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans

worldwide)

Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in

Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

[Guest guest]

At 07:31 PM 10/12/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>Thank you ,

>

>I have two problems with your posting. You remarked:

>

> > However, if neither partner is infected (or both are), then there is

>little

> > relevance in terms of biological issues or whether it is " natural " or not.

>

>My reaction to this statement is that when two people are both positive they

>may not be carrying the same virus. One could be carrying a more virulent

>variety. There is enough scientific evidence to show that those infected are

>infected again with another strain which is more virulent. The consequences

>are severe if this happens. Those who are positive should not take this

>matter lightly and this is a fact.

Well, essentially I agree with you. Superinfection, as it is called,

appears to be a potential problem. Perhaps more for people who may have

access to ARV and may subsequently be infected by a partner's strain

resistant to some drug. Sadly, this isn't an issue for the majority of HIV+

Africans, due in part to the horrific and genocidal greed of the

pharmaceutical industry, let alone corrupt governments, bad unilateral

trade deals, the mess of PEPFAR, WB/IMF debt, etc.

>Your second statement below is strange:

>

> > converting heterosexuals and their perverse lifestyle into being happy and

> > gay! Even though it would make sense to do so,

>

>I find this strange. Why is heterosexual practice perverse. Why did God make

>males and females of all species, unless HE blundered in his plans. By the

>way are there homosexual animals of other varieties other than humans.

Well, hell, god's plan includes abandoning kids? Sending them to hard

labor? beating and abusing them, sexually and psychologically? Giving them

over to the sex slave trade? Letting them watch hours and hours of

television and letting them eat at fast food restaurants?

I tell you, sir, the heterosexual lifestyle is sick and debased!

But, hate the sin, not the sinner I always says. Say, even some of my best

friends are hetero! Why, heck, maybe you are? I wouldn't hold it against

you but at least maybe you could be bi?

M.

(PS: All species male and female? Lol...I don't think so. Why did she make

some of us queer?)

[Guest guest]

At 07:31 PM 10/12/2004 +0300, you wrote:

><By the

>way are there homosexual animals of other varieties other than humans.

Oh--yes. there are.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://www.rnw.nl/lifestyle/html/gayanimals000808.html

Check out the bonobos! They've figured out a much better way of solving

disputes. Other primates want to maim or kill each other. They simply

express affections out of a trouble.

M.

[Guest guest]

Moderator - I don't seem to remember seeing this post but my postings have

been bouncing lately. It is a timely post so if it didn't reach you please

send it again. We now have vigilante death squad confiscating the id cards

of suspected gay youths in Uganda and they are presently fleeing to

neighbouring countries. Hardly good sexual health practice.

Geoff H

Hello to list readers,

I'm reading backwards as usual when I travel but eventually I will get back

to where this flame war started.

I have to say however that many of us are hearing the African Voices

privately from all sides of the religious spectrum and although it is not

the voice of the 3 million odd Kenyans who find themselves same sex

attracted it does number in the hundreds and in some respects I feel that it

would be pointless for them to air their views in this forum.

Regardless of how people are oriented and how they find pleasure in sexual

activity the most important message is for them, and for all of us, to

understand in great detail how to avoid unwanted pregnancy and lethal

infections.

Surely that is the task of the members of this group if risk reduction and

infection control is the primary purpose of the group.

The same can be said for the 2.8 million same sex attracted Ugandans who

could be forgiven for thinking that their government should also be

considering their welfare as well.

Clearly in both countries they are not represented in sufficient numbers in

the legislature. They are certainly not vocal in the churches, assuming they

can find sufficient pastoral care to stay connected.

They are however capable and able to find information and support when

necessary from an amazing array of resources.

Those of us whose ministries extend to recognising them as people for whom

Christ died or for whom Allah provides ministry and pastoral care, we will

continue to identify with them and do whatever is necessary to afford them

the understanding and support they need in spite of the death threats and

hate that is meted out to them from many quarters. The one mitigating

feature is that statistically they are not figuring as highly in the

infection statistics as their hetrosexual counterparts. This must be due in

part to the serial monogamy and secrecy that their orientation dictates.

What saddens me is the number of them, especially in Kenya, who have had to

marry an opposite sex partner in addition to the one they love, to find a

place at the table.

We are tallying at present the numbers of young same sex attracted suicide

victims where pastoral visits are being made to village families by carers

in Uganda on a weekly basis when they reach an age where it is no longer

possible to hide their orientation. If the persons heading the persecution

of the Radio Station in Uganda in the name of public morality can live with

this, then God have mercy on their souls.

He who has ears to hear let him hear and he who has eyes to see let him see.

Geoffrey

Geoff Heaviside

Convenor - Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

Secretary - International Centre for Health Equity Inc

Member - Australasian Society for HIV Medicine Inc

P.O. Box 606 Sunshine 3020

. Australia.

Ph: 0418 328 278

Ph/Fax : (61 3) 9449 1856

or in India

Mr Geoff Heaviside

Mobile : (91) 9840 097 178 (Only when in India)

" Concern for what is right causes us to do our best - Knowledge of what is

best inspires us to do what is right. "

>From: " DR M S Abdullah " <abdullah@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

><AIDS treatments >

>Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:41:51 +0300

>

[Guest guest]

To Readers,

I have been working in human rights and HIV AIDS care, support, treatment

and prevention programs day and night since 1985 anywhere in the world where

infringements and neglect are reported. It has not been easy and it has not

been cheap. I do however fail to see how the colour of my skin which, like a

persons sexual orientation, or in fact the colour of their hair or their

eyes or whether they are left or right handed, all of which are given at

birth, is in any way related to the work at hand.

Geoff Heaviside

Convenor - Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

Secretary - International Centre for Health Equity Inc

Member - Australasian Society for HIV Medicine Inc

P.O. Box 606 Sunshine 3020

. Australia.

Ph: 0418 328 278

Ph/Fax : (61 3) 9449 1856

or in India

Mr Geoff Heaviside

Mobile : (91) 9840 097 178 (Only when in India)

" Concern for what is right causes us to do our best - Knowledge of what is

best inspires us to do what is right. "

>From: " DR M S Abdullah " <abdullah@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

><AIDS treatments >

>Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:32:37 +0300

>

[Guest guest]

Caroline said in part:

>Anyway... anal intercourse is not an exclusively homosexual act. In

>fact.. quit a lot heterosexuals practice it. If I have time I will

>try to find some research on this matter (or if anybody else know

>already?). And knowing that in the transmission of HIV anal

>intercourse is one of the most unsafe practices.. this matter should

>be adressed.

>

>Caroline

See:

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/0C1BBA35-013C-4051-AC88-0AD88FB63FCF.asp

Heterosexual anal sex and first sexual exposure associated with high rates

of HIV transmission in African youth

http://www.ingenta.com/isis/searching/Expand/ingenta?

pub=infobike://rsm/std/2003/00000014/00000007/art00001

and

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JQP/is_359/ai_107489450

Assessing the role of anal intercourse in the epidemiology of AIDS in Africa

International Journal of STD & AIDS 1 July 2003, vol. 14, no. 7, pp.

431-436(6)

Brody S.[1]; Potterat J.J.[2]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg & cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed\

& list_uids=10743535 & dopt=Abstract

Heterosexual anal intercourse: prevalence, cultural factors, and HIV

infection and other health risks, Part I.

http://www.amfar.org/cgi-bin/iowa/td/feature/record.html?record=123

" People practice anal sex to prevent pregnancy, preserve a woman’s

virginity, and obtain pleasure. Yet anal rape is also a common form of

sexual violence and, according to some, a major cause of HIV transmission in

countries like South Africa. Because anal sex is highly stigmatized and even

outlawed in many countries, it is difficult to estimate the extent of the

practice and its contribution to transmission within the heterosexual

population. Some research suggests that one in four heterosexuals in the US

has tried anal sex and for one in 12, it is an occasional or episodic

practice. Other surveys suggest that seven times as many women as gay men

engage in anal intercourse, a figure reflecting the greater overall

heterosexual population. "

" Unfortunately, anal sex remains a highly taboo subject outside of gay

circles. This key message emerged at a satellite meeting, “Challenges of

Rectal Microbicide Development,” held in March as part of the larger

Microbicides 2004 conference in London. The symposium, organized by the

University of California, Los Angeles AIDS Institute and the American

Foundation for AIDS Research, focused on the basic science, immunology, and

pathogenesis of HIV via the rectum, as well as new ways to study rectal

transmission of the virus. "

“I think people working in prevention are beginning to realize what a

serious issue anal sex is for everybody,” said Forbes, a leading

grassroots advocate with the Global Campaign for Microbicides. “But we’re

still missing a lot of critical information about who’s doing what with whom

and what other risk factors may be present.”

Boston, Massachusetts, USA

[Guest guest]

Evat,

Like I said I am not sure what is being discussed here. As far as I

can see many things are being discussed at the same time. So for some

it is a mere discussion about homosexuality, or not even that, but a

discussion about risk behavior and the prevention through awareness

and education and for you and some others it is a discussion about

whether or not homosexuality is right or wrong or if talking about

facts and figures is promoting homosexuality or not.

About figures... I don't know about that... but with a population of

around 30 million and an average of 10% homosexuality we talk about 3

million people in Kenya. And even if the estimates are too high and

we make it 5% of the population we still talk about 1,5 million

people.

Anyway.. I strongly disagree with you when you say that religion

doesn't change. The teachings of, for example the Catholic Church in

the year 1504 is quit different then its teachings now. And all the

different Christian churches are all founded because there has been a

dispute about the meaning of the teachings of the bible. By no means

is the Islam a religion with only one view… to name just a few major

different sidewalks the shiites , the aleviets, the sunnits and there

are great regional differences, in which cultural habits are confused

with religious prescriptions.

Sure whatever kind of sexuality you choose is ones own choice (unless

you harm your partner). In the same time when we talk about HIV/AIDS

we have to talk about sexuality and sexual practices. Like it or not

sexual practices are one of the ways transmission of the virus

occurs. And in discussing sexual practices we can not ignore what we

don't like.

What benefits people general? Is there a single standard for that

one? Also in sexuality there are conflicting interests. To name just

one… some people think it is in the interest of society to regulate

the female sexuality, others think it is a harmful practice.. not

only for the individual woman, but also for the society.

Peace

Caroline

Caroline,

I can see you convincing every one that is against promotion of

homosexuality. Since you seem to be more convinced that this is a mere

discussion of homosexuality and not its promotion, can you please

help me to

understand how somebody, an advocate for issues around homosexuality,

gets a

figure of 1.5 million homosexual young people in Kenya and 2.8 million

Ugandan who are same sex attracted and can not even quote the source

of this

information? If he was in court he would be in prison for raising

sensitive

issues without evidence. With this kind of background, I doubt if you

are

well placed to make a conclusion that the debate was not meant to

point out

promotion of homosexuality by some of our members of this forum. These

figures will always be a basis for me and my colleagues to attack

anyone

that deviates from prevention of HIV/AIDS in Africa to promoting

hidden

agendas such as homosexuality.

For your information, religion/faith does not change save religious

traditions. So I do not expect my religion or faith to change at any

point.

Consensual hetrosexuality or homosexuality, love and care name them,

I am

not in that line. My line of argument is that when you chose whatever

kind

of sexuality, that is your personal choice. Do not try to impose it on

anyone. I am only interested in what benefits people generally but to

shout

to us all the time to attract our attention to your personal choice

is vague

and out of place. May be you could be doing the right thing in a

wrong place

and to a wrong audience!

Blessings to you.

Evatt

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >Dear ,

> > > > >

> > > > >Thank you for your compliments.

> > > > >

> > > > >Speaking out is everyone's right. I can not stop people from

> >speaking out

> > > >at

> > > > >all.

> > > >

> > > >Likewise. Why should we wish to? (Unless people are speaking

out

> >demanding

> > > >the harming or killing of another group as in Rwanda.)

> > > >

> > > > >Like Dr. Abdullah put it to you, I do not believe the

biological

> >part of

> > > > >homosexuality because if it was the case we would not be

having

> >all these

> > > > >counter debates.

> > > >

> > > >I have no idea what you mean.

> > > >

> > > > >The simple question to you

> > > >

> > > >Ah--you raise several questions.

> > > >

> > > > > and your colleagues is 'Why did

> > > > >the majority of people in the universe embrace the

hetersexual

> >practice

> > > > >right from creation of the first being and not homosexuality?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >You were there? What first being? A diatom? A bonobo? Diatoms

> >don't give a

> > > >fig for heterosexuality. Bonobos seem to enjoy all sorts of

> >permutations

> > > >and indeed are less aggressive.

> > > >

> > > > >Who corrupted

> > > > >the whole process of having an even and balanced share for

both?

> >Why

> > > >don't

> > > > >we have at at least a single country in the world

exclusively for

> > > > >homosexuality where hetrosexuality would probably be seen as

> >oppressed

> > > >and

> > > > >discriminated against?

> > > >

> > > >What a bizarre set of questions! Universe--well, let's talk

about

> >planet

> > > >Earth. There is a LOT more to the Universe.

> > > >

> > > >I don't know who corrupted the process. What process do you

mean?

> >What was

> > > >the corruption? Too many heterosexuals? What does corruption

refer

> >to?

> > > >Look, some of my best friends are hetero and I don't think

they're

> >corrupt!

> > > >

> > > >It's like asking why did most people on the planet wind up

Asian.

> > > >

> > > >Look inside yourself. I presume you are attracted to the

opposite

> >sex.

> > > >EVERY person of the opposite sex? Or just some? You know that

> >feeling you

> > > >get of longing, of startled awe at beauty, that rush of blood

to

> >the loins

> > > >that some individuals inspire?

> > > >

> > > >That is what some of us naturally feel for some members of the

> >same gender.

> > > >Is that induced by choice? By nature? By nurture?

> > > >

> > > >I don't think that's even a relevant or important question.

But I

> >can say,

> > > >the instinctual and delighted response is perfectly natural and

> >doesn't

> > > >feel to me like I chose it.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >snip

> > > > >Let us all listen to each other's view but above all respect

> >people's

> > > > >culture. Iam aware of the changing society but culture does

not

> >die out.

> > > >It

> > > > >goes through different levels with a lot of challenges but

it's

> >so strong

> > > > >that it can not be wiped out.

> > > >

> > > >Nonsense. I'm not suggesting a culture SHOULD be wiped out

ever.

> >It is sad

> > > >when that happens. But cultures do die. And mutate. And

transform.

> > > >

> > > >On the other hand, some ASPECTS of cultures should be allowed

to

> >pass.

> > > >Female circumcision. Denying women the right to vote. Slavery.

> >Oppression

> > > >of any kind.

> > > >

> > > > >That is the background of all this resistence

> > > > >and disagreement with you on the homosexuality idealogy. Feel

> >free to

> > > > >practice your homosexuality but avoid any temptation to

promote

> >it. I

> > > > >repeat. Keep it personal. The struggle continues.

> > > >

> > > >Of course it is personal. If by that you mean I should be

silent,

> >I cannot

> > > >ever agree to that.

> > > >

> > > >And I will stand by my lesbian and gay friends and supporters

in

> >Africa and

> > > >anywhere in the world. No culture has the right to justify its

> >existence as

> > > >a tool of oppression. If that's your idea of culture, then I

> >suggest it is

> > > >mistaken.

> > > > M.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

_________________________________________________________________

> > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice

on

> >how to

> > > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?

cid=Retirement

> >

> >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!

> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much !

Caroline

>

> Caroline said in part:

>

> >Anyway... anal intercourse is not an exclusively homosexual act. In

> >fact.. quit a lot heterosexuals practice it. If I have time I will

> >try to find some research on this matter (or if anybody else know

> >already?). And knowing that in the transmission of HIV anal

> >intercourse is one of the most unsafe practices.. this matter

should

> >be adressed.

> >

> >Caroline

>

> See:

> http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/0C1BBA35-013C-4051-AC88-

0AD88FB63FCF.asp

>

> Heterosexual anal sex and first sexual exposure associated with

high rates

> of HIV transmission in African youth

>

> http://www.ingenta.com/isis/searching/Expand/ingenta?

> pub=infobike://rsm/std/2003/00000014/00000007/art00001

>

> and

>

> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JQP/is_359/ai_107489450

>

> Assessing the role of anal intercourse in the epidemiology of AIDS

in Africa

> International Journal of STD & AIDS 1 July 2003, vol. 14, no.

7, pp.

> 431-436(6)

> Brody S.[1]; Potterat J.J.[2]

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

holding=npg & cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10743535 & dopt=Abstract

>

> Heterosexual anal intercourse: prevalence, cultural factors, and

HIV

> infection and other health risks, Part I.

>

> http://www.amfar.org/cgi-bin/iowa/td/feature/record.html?record=123

>

> " People practice anal sex to prevent pregnancy, preserve a woman's

> virginity, and obtain pleasure. Yet anal rape is also a common form

of

> sexual violence and, according to some, a major cause of HIV

transmission in

> countries like South Africa. Because anal sex is highly stigmatized

and even

> outlawed in many countries, it is difficult to estimate the extent

of the

> practice and its contribution to transmission within the

heterosexual

> population. Some research suggests that one in four heterosexuals

in the US

> has tried anal sex and for one in 12, it is an occasional or

episodic

> practice. Other surveys suggest that seven times as many women as

gay men

> engage in anal intercourse, a figure reflecting the greater overall

> heterosexual population. "

>

> " Unfortunately, anal sex remains a highly taboo subject outside of

gay

> circles. This key message emerged at a satellite

meeting, " Challenges of

> Rectal Microbicide Development, " held in March as part of the

larger

> Microbicides 2004 conference in London. The symposium, organized by

the

> University of California, Los Angeles AIDS Institute and the

American

> Foundation for AIDS Research, focused on the basic science,

immunology, and

> pathogenesis of HIV via the rectum, as well as new ways to study

rectal

> transmission of the virus. "

>

> " I think people working in prevention are beginning to realize what

a

> serious issue anal sex is for everybody, " said Forbes, a

leading

> grassroots advocate with the Global Campaign for Microbicides. " But

we're

> still missing a lot of critical information about who's doing what

with whom

> and what other risk factors may be present. "

>

>

>

> Boston, Massachusetts, USA