Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in Kenya)/Geoff

> http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans

worldwide)

> Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in

>

October 8, 2004

, Thank you for your ever rude and uncultured language.

Before I agree with your line of thinking if I must, I would like to inform

you that we know what is around us. What we do not want and will fiercely

fight is what you have mentioned on my behalf ''cultural imperialism " . When

you say that it has not and does not exit, the Africans who share The same

mind as mine, see you as a misled expert on African affairs.

If you can not recognize the place and value for respecting other people's

culture in oder to win them to the right thinking by walking them through a

process to what is unknown, then your effort is bound to fail miserably. By

your attitude and approach, the way I see it , you'll find it very difficult

to win me and other people alike to believe in your philosophy.

Believe it or not, many of you are out there to advance the practice of

homosexuality which practice undermines your credibility on the African

Continent. The AIDS work is not about recruiting homosexuals! It is about

targetting every category of population including homosexuals with much

respect and in the context of their values, beliefs and practices. The

African culture embraces a lot of good values, beliefs and practices. If my

culture does not embrace homosexuality who are you to impose it on me, my

church or my government disguising under human rights which has been highly

corrupted by minds like yours?

I am who I am, I will not be threatened by anybody to emotionally move away

from what I strongly believe in. I am African and I am not sure that any

outsider can challenge me in my own culture at all.

So go ahead with your advocacy on homosexuality. As for me, I will continue

to advocate for total liberation of Africans from cultural imperialism and

related issues. I believe in the international community and cross -

cultural experiences that can be a source of learning. However, I do not

believe in any form of appoach that is centered at imposing one's idealogies

and practices to another individual or community. Let us learn to respect

how people outside our culture want to live their lives. Necessity is the

mother of invention. Given some breathing space, the Africans will get a way

of handling all the problems around them in a more effective way than this

push push method. I advise you to re - visit your approach so as to minimise

" the lords resistance " you refered to if you have to remain relevant to

African issues.

Rev. Evatt Mugarura.

>From: " M. " <fiar@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

>http://www.mask.org.za/sections/AfricaPerCountry/uganda/uganda7.html

>Subject: RE: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 05:23:51 -0400

>

>At 11:58 PM 10/7/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>

> >Again my brother Geoffrey you are showing up with your controversy!

>

>As you point out, Rev, the African people are pretty brainy and smart. The

>simple fact is, males have sex with males. And females have sex with

>females. Your culture and mine are different, but that has no bearing on

>this simple reality. Indeed, smart, brainy Africans have their own

>organizations to help liberate from the oppression of attitudes like those

>you have expressed:

>

>You wrap yourself in a Middle Eastern cult brought to you by Europeans, so

>don't get your collar too hot with all your anti-human dithering about

>white people coming in and controlling the sexual minds of Africans. The

>libido is powerful enough, despite the admonitions of folks like you who

>think they can control everyone's sexual feelings.

>

>What Geoffrey does is simply point out this reality that you would try to

>remain blind to and offer means and methods to gently express these

>feelings in ways that do NOT result in violence, rape or other activities,

>also a part of our shared HUMAN heritage, manifest in its own peculiar

>flavors by the cultural setting in which such activities occur. Whether a

>guy beats his wife or a culture permits killing a woman for having had

>sex--the result is violence, an expression of human nature.

>

>As a reverend, I think what you need to do is address that violence and

>speak against it. Address the heart of people by finding and clearing your

>own heart. You cannot control anyone: try to control your own anger and

>libido.

>

>Then see what can be done to help others be empowered to make better

>choices that are not driven by fury or the sexual urgency, an

>overwhelmingly strong passion of our human nature, whether directed toward

>those of the same or opposite gender.

>

>This nonsense about cultural imperialism is utterly irrelevant in THAT

>context. It is a shield you hide behind, like some do with their religious

>convictions, to hide your own bigotry.

>

>This is not to say that cultural imperialism has not nor does not exist and

>influence Africa--or Asia. Or the US even. Indeed, some might call

>Christianity's imposition on Africa a somewhat older and root infestation

>of the authentic African tradition (whatever that is).

>

>It's a part of us being in touch all over the world. That doesn't justify

>destroying traditions, of course. But so many have already been swept aside

>with urbanization and the changes in the world. The trick is that we try

>not to kill each other over the remaining scraps...but this is an even more

>dangerous and despicable aspect of our shared human nature.

>

>Please put anal sex (whatever the genders of the participants) in its

>context. It is human nature and an activity that some humans enjoy.

>Preventing spread of disease is the goal, not hiding from that simple

>reality.

>

>Spend more time on the heart to shed the aggressivities that creates the

>Lords of Resistance, the amputees in Sierra Leone, etc. while here in the

>US, we must address the racism that puts millions of young African

>Americans in jail, where the HIV pandemic is spreading the fastest, where

>healthcare access is demonstrably racist in its distribution...I think

>there are more serious issues for us all to deal with than with whom people

>wish to have consensual sex.

>

> M.

>

_________________________________________________________________

Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and

more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx

October 8, 2004

,

What do you learn from this posting in relation to HIV/AIDS and culture?

Evatt

MBABANE, 7 October (PLUSNEWS) - Heterosexual men need to take more

responsibility for trying to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS in Southern Africa,

according to regional health experts.

At a workshop held in Swaziland's capital, Mbabane, on Thursday, health

workers, government officials and AIDS activists called on men across the

region to assume a greater role in tackling the disease. At 38.6 percent,

Swaziland has the one of world's highest rates of HIV infection.

" As we know, in sub-Saharan Africa HIV is spread primarily through

heterosexual means and, again, it is well known that Africa, by and large,

remains a patriarchal society. Hence, the participation of men in matters of

sexual and reproductive health is crucial, " Swaziland's Health Minister,

Sipho Shongwe, told participants.

He noted that anti-AIDS interventions had so far focused on empowering women

to negotiate safer sex with their partners.

The principal secretary for health in Swaziland, Kunene, explained the

challenges of addressing male sexuality in a traditional society such as

Swaziland.

" In this country various programmes have been established to ensure men's

constructive involvement in sexual and reproductive health matters, and the

involvement of various traditional structures in these initiatives has

ensured that our approach is culturally acceptable, even as they embrace

universally agreed upon principles, " said Kunene.

The workshop, a joint initiative between the health ministry and the

National AIDS Commission, funded by the British Commonwealth Secretariat

(COMSEC), was aimed at increasing HIV/AIDS awareness and bolstering gender

sensitivity among males in the country.

There were concerns that ongoing ignorance about how HIV was transmitted,

coupled with poverty, unemployment and alcohol abuse, contributed to risky

sexual behaviour by males.

" I would like to note that a man under the influence of illicit drugs and

umqombothi (a traditional Swazi brew made from sorghum) will most likely be

violent to his sexual partner, and may not be able to control his sexual

discretion. He is also likely to engage in forced sexual relationships and

rape, " commented ph Amuzu, the Commonwealth Chief Programmes Officer.

Women's groups have welcomed the greater emphasis on the role of men in

fighting the virus.

" It's about time that men recognise that AIDS in Africa is a heterosexually

transmitted disease, and it is usually the man who is the one who infects

his partner. It is important not to blame, but to understand; it is

important not to condemn, but to effect change in attitude and behaviour, "

said Sempiwe Hlope, founder of the women's HIV/AIDS support organisation,

Swazis for Positive Living.

Hlope herself was infected with HIV by her husband, who denied

responsibility and accused her of having an affair with another man.

[ENDS]

IRIN-SA

>From: " M. " <fiar@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

>http://www.mask.org.za/sections/AfricaPerCountry/uganda/uganda7.html

>Subject: RE: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 05:23:51 -0400

>

>At 11:58 PM 10/7/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>

> >Again my brother Geoffrey you are showing up with your controversy!

>

>As you point out, Rev, the African people are pretty brainy and smart. The

>simple fact is, males have sex with males. And females have sex with

>females. Your culture and mine are different, but that has no bearing on

>this simple reality. Indeed, smart, brainy Africans have their own

>organizations to help liberate from the oppression of attitudes like those

>you have expressed:

>

>You wrap yourself in a Middle Eastern cult brought to you by Europeans, so

>don't get your collar too hot with all your anti-human dithering about

>white people coming in and controlling the sexual minds of Africans. The

>libido is powerful enough, despite the admonitions of folks like you who

>think they can control everyone's sexual feelings.

>

>What Geoffrey does is simply point out this reality that you would try to

>remain blind to and offer means and methods to gently express these

>feelings in ways that do NOT result in violence, rape or other activities,

>also a part of our shared HUMAN heritage, manifest in its own peculiar

>flavors by the cultural setting in which such activities occur. Whether a

>guy beats his wife or a culture permits killing a woman for having had

>sex--the result is violence, an expression of human nature.

>

>As a reverend, I think what you need to do is address that violence and

>speak against it. Address the heart of people by finding and clearing your

>own heart. You cannot control anyone: try to control your own anger and

>libido.

>

>Then see what can be done to help others be empowered to make better

>choices that are not driven by fury or the sexual urgency, an

>overwhelmingly strong passion of our human nature, whether directed toward

>those of the same or opposite gender.

>

>This nonsense about cultural imperialism is utterly irrelevant in THAT

>context. It is a shield you hide behind, like some do with their religious

>convictions, to hide your own bigotry.

>

>This is not to say that cultural imperialism has not nor does not exist and

>influence Africa--or Asia. Or the US even. Indeed, some might call

>Christianity's imposition on Africa a somewhat older and root infestation

>of the authentic African tradition (whatever that is).

>

>It's a part of us being in touch all over the world. That doesn't justify

>destroying traditions, of course. But so many have already been swept aside

>with urbanization and the changes in the world. The trick is that we try

>not to kill each other over the remaining scraps...but this is an even more

>dangerous and despicable aspect of our shared human nature.

>

>Please put anal sex (whatever the genders of the participants) in its

>context. It is human nature and an activity that some humans enjoy.

>Preventing spread of disease is the goal, not hiding from that simple

>reality.

>

>Spend more time on the heart to shed the aggressivities that creates the

>Lords of Resistance, the amputees in Sierra Leone, etc. while here in the

>US, we must address the racism that puts millions of young African

>Americans in jail, where the HIV pandemic is spreading the fastest, where

>healthcare access is demonstrably racist in its distribution...I think

>there are more serious issues for us all to deal with than with whom people

>wish to have consensual sex.

>

> M.

>

_________________________________________________________________

Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®

Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

October 9, 2004

At 02:32 PM 10/8/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>Amazing! Amazing! Amazing! Two white people fighting for the rights of the

>black men of Africa in homosexuality. Since it is alleged that there are 1.5

>million homosexuals in Kenya how come they need the white voice to defend

>them.

It's called solidarity! Isn't that great?

Solidarity against oppression of any kind is what helped South Africa be

free of Apartheid. It was all our voices united against such injustice that

helped to make the change.

Let's keep working together against the injustice of oppression against

people just because of who they love.

And work hard against the violence that resides in our all too human nature.

M.

October 9, 2004

At 03:49 PM 10/8/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>,

>

>What do you learn from this posting in relation to HIV/AIDS and culture?

LOL. Is this called changing the subject?

>MBABANE, 7 October (PLUSNEWS) - Heterosexual men need to take more

>responsibility for trying to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS in Southern Africa,

>according to regional health experts.

I could not agree more. We are all in this fight together.

M.

October 9, 2004

At 02:11 PM 10/8/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>, Thank you for your ever rude and uncultured language.

You are more than welcome!

>Before I agree with your line of thinking if I must, I would like to inform

>you that we know what is around us. What we do not want and will fiercely

>fight is what you have mentioned on my behalf ''cultural imperialism " . When

>you say that it has not and does not exit, the Africans who share The same

>mind as mine, see you as a misled expert on African affairs.

You misread what I wrote. I said it DOES exist. No question.

>snip

>Believe it or not, many of you are out there to advance the practice of

>homosexuality which practice undermines your credibility on the African

>Continent.

Utter nonsense. The credibility of nations is in the treatment of its

people. All of its people.

And the reality of Africa is the same in that regard as it is in the

Americas, Asia, Europe. There are those of us who are attracted to the same

gender. It is a fact of human existence.

Your work does NOT represent all of Africa or all of its people any more

than mine does all of the Americas.

What I hope you will find, in your adoption of Christianity, is that spirit

of love and caring for your fellow humans. That is the core of Christian

teaching for which I have enormous respect. I know you will probably never

be happy about the fact of same gender attraction. That's also a part of

our human condition. But recognize that it does exist. And for many

Africans, it is NOT some European import. That is just a delusional notion

used to justify bigotry and oppression.

In the meantime, what you can do that is constructive and helpful is to

encourage people do find their own power to make choices that are the best

for them. And that includes encouraging safer sex activities, etc.

Take care,

M.

October 10, 2004

I am sorry , this is not solidarity. To me solidarity would mean

others joiningg the African voice. I don't hear the African voice. I hear

white folks from very far distances purporting to defend the " defenceless "

African Let the African begin his own war and then you can feel justified in

throwing in your own weight.

I am a doctor and I have gone back to look at the anatomy, biology and

physiology of the anal canal and the vaginal canal. They have been

constructed to do some specific functions. Deviation from those functions is

not about human rights. Those who feel like imposing their biology in such

manner does not make them right. I guess both society as well as nature will

tolerate their deviance but it still does not make it right.

Dr. Mohamed Abdullah

Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

Kenya)/Geoff

>

> At 02:32 PM 10/8/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>

> >Amazing! Amazing! Amazing! Two white people fighting for the rights of

the

> >black men of Africa in homosexuality. Since it is alleged that there are

1.5

> >million homosexuals in Kenya how come they need the white voice to defend

> >them.

>

> It's called solidarity! Isn't that great?

>

> Solidarity against oppression of any kind is what helped South Africa be

> free of Apartheid. It was all our voices united against such injustice

that

> helped to make the change.

>

> Let's keep working together against the injustice of oppression against

> people just because of who they love.

>

> And work hard against the violence that resides in our all too human

nature.

> M.

>

> http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans

worldwide)

> Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in

>

October 10, 2004

Dear all,

I tried to follow this thread, wondering how it got from aids

activism using the internet to homosexuality and what solidarity is

or not. Still didn't figure it out yet. But as far as I can see some

one said someting about the content of his education that included

anal intercourse.... which another thought of being an exclusively

homosexual act. And there it was again.. the subject that always

causes so much uprise.. homosexuality in Africa.. We have done this

many times over here.. and it is always leading to one thing: African

homosexuals leaving the group. For African homosexuals it takes

courage to speak out, because it has proven to be dangerous.. Only

last week Fannyann Eddy was murdered while working late in the

offices of SLLAGA (Sierra Leone Lesbian and Gay Association) after

being raped. So when somebody says there is no African voice on this

subject one should wonder why (maybe the voice is silenced one way or

the other).

Anyway... anal intercourse is not an exclusively homosexual act. In

fact.. quit a lot heterosexuals practice it. If I have time I will

try to find some research on this matter (or if anybody else know

already?). And knowing that in the transmission of HIV anal

intercourse is one of the most unsafe practices.. this matter should

be adressed.

Caroline

> >

> > >Amazing! Amazing! Amazing! Two white people fighting for the

rights of

> the

> > >black men of Africa in homosexuality. Since it is alleged that

there are

> 1.5

> > >million homosexuals in Kenya how come they need the white voice

to defend

> > >them.

> >

> > It's called solidarity! Isn't that great?

> >

> > Solidarity against oppression of any kind is what helped South

Africa be

> > free of Apartheid. It was all our voices united against such

injustice

> that

> > helped to make the change.

> >

> > Let's keep working together against the injustice of oppression

against

> > people just because of who they love.

> >

> > And work hard against the violence that resides in our all too

human

> nature.

> > M.

> >

> > http://www./group/

> > http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of

Africans

> worldwide)

> > Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that

discusses IT in

> Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

> >

October 10, 2004

At 11:02 AM 10/10/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>I am sorry , this is not solidarity. To me solidarity would mean

>others joiningg the African voice. I don't hear the African voice. I hear

>white folks from very far distances purporting to defend the " defenceless "

>African Let the African begin his own war and then you can feel justified in

>throwing in your own weight.

Nonsense. You simply remain deaf to that which displeases some sensibility

that you cling to. You will fling up all sorts of nonsense like the

xenophobic nonsense about " voices from afar, " cultural imperialism,

pseudo-science and religious convictions as props to support what boils

down to nothing more but commonplace bigotry and oppression.

We will not stand for it. The fact is, there ARE lesbian and gay Africans.

There are groups that are working toward liberation from the tyranny of

your bigotry, just as women are finding a place in the world, despite the

oppression of men. And we will. Even when some are murdered by those who

take the kind of oppressive attitude evinced by folks like you to an

extreme I trust you, at least, have too good a heart to ever travel to.

>I am a doctor and I have gone back to look at the anatomy, biology and

>physiology of the anal canal and the vaginal canal. They have been

>constructed to do some specific functions.

Really? You have an owners' manual? Lol....this begins to sound like the

same nonsense as " if man were meant to fly " kinda crap. Ever been on a jet?

>Deviation from those functions is

>not about human rights. Those who feel like imposing their biology in such

>manner does not make them right. I guess both society as well as nature will

>tolerate their deviance but it still does not make it right.

Nonsense in toto. Anal sex between men and women, etc., etc., has always

been a practice some have enjoyed. Some have used it as a method of birth

control.

What YOU consider right and moral is your right. You need not engage in

those activities. But when two adults consent to such pleasures, it is not

your place to pretend you are god because it may make you squeamish or upset.

M.

**

Just a little reminder:

HE; LW Jr; Lohr BA. Is homophobia associated with homosexual

arousal? J Abnorm Psychol 1996 Aug;105(3):440-445.

Department of Psychology, University of Georgia, Athens 30602-3013, USA.

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively

heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual

individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35)

and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on

the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A.

Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli

consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and

changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an

Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. , 1992). Both groups

exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female

homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile

erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in

aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal

that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

October 10, 2004

The inflammatory language itself speaks volume. Aggressiveness is a human

(and animal) defence against perceived danger even if it is not there. That

is why you feel so inflammed just by being told that we do not agree with

you. You also don't have to agree with us. As I said before pleasure from

anal sex does not make it biologically right because you said so. Give us

scientific proof that the biologic events going on are as normal as other

biologic processes. Go ahead if you enjoy it but don't call it right.

This has nothing to do with whether we are " Tyrants, bigots, relgious

perverts " or any other adjective you wish to throw from your temper tantrums

I still don't hear the African voice yet. It is your tantrums that I hear

defending the " defenceless " African. Let the oppressed African speak out and

then you join in your solidarity. The true African I assure you will have

the African dignity and will not join your chorus

Dr. Mohamed Abdullah

Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

Kenya)/Geoff

>

> At 11:02 AM 10/10/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>

> >I am sorry , this is not solidarity. To me solidarity would mean

> >others joiningg the African voice. I don't hear the African voice. I hear

> >white folks from very far distances purporting to defend the

" defenceless "

> >African Let the African begin his own war and then you can feel justified

in

> >throwing in your own weight.

>

> Nonsense. You simply remain deaf to that which displeases some sensibility

> that you cling to. You will fling up all sorts of nonsense like the

> xenophobic nonsense about " voices from afar, " cultural imperialism,

> pseudo-science and religious convictions as props to support what boils

> down to nothing more but commonplace bigotry and oppression.

>

> We will not stand for it. The fact is, there ARE lesbian and gay Africans.

> There are groups that are working toward liberation from the tyranny of

> your bigotry, just as women are finding a place in the world, despite the

> oppression of men. And we will. Even when some are murdered by those who

> take the kind of oppressive attitude evinced by folks like you to an

> extreme I trust you, at least, have too good a heart to ever travel to.

>

> >I am a doctor and I have gone back to look at the anatomy, biology and

> >physiology of the anal canal and the vaginal canal. They have been

> >constructed to do some specific functions.

>

> Really? You have an owners' manual? Lol....this begins to sound like the

> same nonsense as " if man were meant to fly " kinda crap. Ever been on a

jet?

>

> >Deviation from those functions is

> >not about human rights. Those who feel like imposing their biology in

such

> >manner does not make them right. I guess both society as well as nature

will

> >tolerate their deviance but it still does not make it right.

>

> Nonsense in toto. Anal sex between men and women, etc., etc., has always

> been a practice some have enjoyed. Some have used it as a method of birth

> control.

>

> What YOU consider right and moral is your right. You need not engage in

> those activities. But when two adults consent to such pleasures, it is not

> your place to pretend you are god because it may make you squeamish or

upset.

>

> M.

>

> **

> Just a little reminder:

>

> HE; LW Jr; Lohr BA. Is homophobia associated with homosexual

> arousal? J Abnorm Psychol 1996 Aug;105(3):440-445.

>

> Department of Psychology, University of Georgia, Athens 30602-3013, USA.

>

> The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively

> heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual

> individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35)

> and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on

> the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A.

> Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli

> consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and

> changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an

> Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. , 1992). Both groups

> exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female

> homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile

> erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in

> aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal

> that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

>

> http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans

worldwide)

> Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in

http://www.galha.freeserve.co.uk/glh/191/bagemihl.html

>

October 10, 2004

Thank you Caroline. Your last sentence is the most important. People have

known all along that anal sex whether homosexual or heterosexual is the most

unsafe. Precisely because the anal mucosa is not meant biologically for that

purpose. IT is MORE EASILY traumatized and ruptured and does not offer

biologic protection from infections like the vaginal mucosa does. There is a

lot of scientific information on this

This is what I meant by biologic derangements. Some people still enjoy it

and do it, and this is their personal choice and problem. But it is not safe

and they should not vehemently attract others into it despite knowing that

it is the most unsafe thing to do, and savagely defend it as if the rest of

the world is wrong.

When this is politely pointed out, that is when you see the emotional

outbursts and name calling which is not the rational way of dealing with the

subject.

Dr. Mohamed Abdullah

Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

Kenya)/Geoff

>

> Dear all,

>

> I tried to follow this thread, wondering how it got from aids

> activism using the internet to homosexuality and what solidarity is

> or not. Still didn't figure it out yet. But as far as I can see some

> one said someting about the content of his education that included

> anal intercourse.... which another thought of being an exclusively

> homosexual act. And there it was again.. the subject that always

> causes so much uprise.. homosexuality in Africa.. We have done this

> many times over here.. and it is always leading to one thing: African

> homosexuals leaving the group. For African homosexuals it takes

> courage to speak out, because it has proven to be dangerous.. Only

> last week Fannyann Eddy was murdered while working late in the

> offices of SLLAGA (Sierra Leone Lesbian and Gay Association) after

> being raped. So when somebody says there is no African voice on this

> subject one should wonder why (maybe the voice is silenced one way or

> the other).

>

> Anyway... anal intercourse is not an exclusively homosexual act. In

> fact.. quit a lot heterosexuals practice it. If I have time I will

> try to find some research on this matter (or if anybody else know

> already?). And knowing that in the transmission of HIV anal

> intercourse is one of the most unsafe practices.. this matter should

> be adressed.

>

> Caroline

>

> > >

> > > >Amazing! Amazing! Amazing! Two white people fighting for the

> rights of

> > the

> > > >black men of Africa in homosexuality. Since it is alleged that

> there are

> > 1.5

> > > >million homosexuals in Kenya how come they need the white voice

> to defend

> > > >them.

> > >

> > > It's called solidarity! Isn't that great?

> > >

> > > Solidarity against oppression of any kind is what helped South

> Africa be

> > > free of Apartheid. It was all our voices united against such

> injustice

> > that

> > > helped to make the change.

> > >

> > > Let's keep working together against the injustice of oppression

> against

> > > people just because of who they love.

> > >

> > > And work hard against the violence that resides in our all too

> human

> > nature.

> > > M.

> > >

> > > http://www./group/

> > > http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of

> Africans

> > worldwide)

> > > Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that

> discusses IT in

> > Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

> > >

October 10, 2004

At 02:41 PM 10/10/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>The inflammatory language itself speaks volume. Aggressiveness is a human

>(and animal) defence against perceived danger even if it is not there.

I understand. It's OK--and I'm sure you'll be able to manage toning down

your inflammatory rhetoric and aggression! I don't hold it against you, my

dear.

>That

>is why you feel so inflammed just by being told that we do not agree with

>you. You also don't have to agree with us. As I said before pleasure from

>anal sex does not make it biologically right because you said so.

What science says ANYTHING about what is " biologically right " ? Please do

share the citations! I look forward to reading the research.

You have an amazing aptitude for using science and other shields to justify

your oppressive attitudes!

>Give us

>scientific proof that the biologic events going on are as normal as other

>biologic processes. Go ahead if you enjoy it but don't call it right.

I never refer to scientific " proof " but rather evidence, particularly in

matters of complex systems such as biological ones. But indeed, I think the

fact that same gender relations are found in nearly every phyla speaks at

least to that aspect. For example:

As to anal sex, it is very common among same and opposite genders. If you

don't believe it is perfectly natural--well, the internet has PLENTY of

explicit examples with a marvelous and sometimes positively acrobatic

displays of activity! Heavens.

Why, I've engaged in the activity myself, I'm happy to report! Both giving

and receiving and have enjoyed both. And yep, seemed pretty natural. Not

very scientific, I grant you but a VERY brief review of pubmed has yet to

yield a lot of research on the topic. And, indeed, from Ghana:

http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/artikel.php?ID=37809

>This has nothing to do with whether we are " Tyrants, bigots, relgious

>perverts " or any other adjective you wish to throw from your temper tantrums

Bigotry is what it is, my friend! Sorry you don't like my opinion. Now, if

you have some scientific evidence that supports your contention, I'm

willing to consider it. For example, there are some data that suggest the

incidence of HIV is lower among Muslims in Africa. It is unclear whether

adherence to sexual mores of the faith, fear of expression of natural

desires, circumcision, a lower " porosity " between muslims and other more

affected groups or some mix thereof explains the lower incidence (see Gray

PB, Soc Sci Med. 2004 May;58(9):1751-1756).

>I still don't hear the African voice yet. It is your tantrums that I hear

>defending the " defenceless " African. Let the oppressed African speak out and

>then you join in your solidarity. The true African I assure you will have

>the African dignity and will not join your chorus

I've previously listed a number of websites of gay and lesbian

organizations in Africa. Most in Africa probably simply would rather not

address you because they are wise enough to know that your deafness is

incurable.

I wish you the best in this journey of life, sir. And that your heart is

opened and lifted from this terrible oppression that you suffer and foist

upon others.

M.

October 10, 2004

At 02:51 PM 10/10/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>Thank you Caroline. Your last sentence is the most important. People have

>known all along that anal sex whether homosexual or heterosexual is the most

>unsafe. Precisely because the anal mucosa is not meant biologically for that

>purpose. IT is MORE EASILY traumatized and ruptured and does not offer

>biologic protection from infections like the vaginal mucosa does. There is a

>lot of scientific information on this

Agreed!! And I have no argument with that aspect in terms of the

transmission of HIV! As well as other diseases. However, use of a condom

will prevent this when one partner is infected.

However, if neither partner is infected (or both are), then there is little

relevance in terms of biological issues or whether it is " natural " or not.

>This is what I meant by biologic derangements. Some people still enjoy it

>and do it, and this is their personal choice and problem. But it is not safe

>and they should not vehemently attract others into it despite knowing that

>it is the most unsafe thing to do, and savagely defend it as if the rest of

>the world is wrong.

It is not a matter of " vehemently " trying to convert people into activities

they are not interested in. That would be just silly. As silly as

converting heterosexuals and their perverse lifestyle into being happy and

gay! Even though it would make sense to do so, given the problems with

overpopulation. (LOL....so I'm being cheeky.)

>When this is politely pointed out, that is when you see the emotional

>outbursts and name calling which is not the rational way of dealing with the

>subject.

That's not what you were pointing out originally, I don't think. But if I

misunderstood and you were merely noting the risks of infection relating to

unprotected sex, and particularly anal sex, then we have no argument at all!

M.

October 10, 2004

Hello to list readers,

I'm reading backwards as usual when I travel but eventually I will get back

to where this flame war started.

I have to say however that many of us are hearing the African Voices

privately from all sides of the religious spectrum and although it is not

the voice of the 3 million odd Kenyans who find themselves same sex

attracted it does number in the hundreds and in some respects I feel that it

would be pointless for them to air their views in this forum.

Regardless of how people are oriented and how they find pleasure in sexual

activity the most important message is for them, and for all of us, to

understand in great detail how to avoid unwanted pregnancy and lethal

infections.

Surely that is the task of the members of this group if risk reduction and

infection control is the primary purpose of the group.

The same can be said for the 2.8 million same sex attracted Ugandans who

could be forgiven for thinking that their government should also be

considering their welfare as well.

Clearly in both countries they are not represented in sufficient numbers in

the legislature. They are certainly not vocal in the churches, assuming they

can find sufficient pastoral care to stay connected.

They are however capable and able to find information and support when

necessary from an amazing array of resources.

Those of us whose ministries extend to recognising them as people for whom

Christ died or for whom Allah provides ministry and pastoral care, we will

continue to identify with them and do whatever is necessary to afford them

the understanding and support they need in spite of the death threats and

hate that is meted out to them from many quarters. The one mitigating

feature is that statistically they are not figuring as highly in the

infection statistics as their hetrosexual counterparts. This must be due in

part to the serial monogamy and secrecy that their orientation dictates.

What saddens me is the number of them, especially in Kenya, who have had to

marry an opposite sex partner in addition to the one they love, to find a

place at the table.

We are tallying at present the numbers of young same sex attracted suicide

victims where pastoral visits are being made to village families by carers

in Uganda on a weekly basis when they reach an age where it is no longer

possible to hide their orientation. If the persons heading the persecution

of the Radio Station in Uganda in the name of public morality can live with

this, then God have mercy on their souls.

He who has ears to hear let him hear and he who has eyes to see let him see.

Geoffrey

Geoff Heaviside

Convenor - Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

Secretary - International Centre for Health Equity Inc

Member - Australasian Society for HIV Medicine Inc

P.O. Box 606 Sunshine 3020

. Australia.

Ph: 0418 328 278

Ph/Fax : (61 3) 9449 1856

or in India

Mr Geoff Heaviside

Mobile : (91) 9840 097 178 (Only when in India)

" Concern for what is right causes us to do our best - Knowledge of what is

best inspires us to do what is right. "

>From: " DR M S Abdullah " <abdullah@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

><AIDS treatments >

>Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:41:51 +0300

>

October 11, 2004

Dear ,

If science has failed to clarify whether or not homosexuality is right, I

suggest that we try religion. I wish you the best. The bottom line of all

our debate is that we should address HIV/AIDS without wrapping it in ahidden

agenda. Promoting homosexuality in Africa does not prevent further spread of

HIV/AIDS! No one has attempted to answer the question on how the reported

1.5 million gay young Kenyans was got. Geoff wrote to me this figure which

bothers me so much and I would like him to tell the forum how he got the

numbers if not through a systematic recruiting program of these youth. That

will definately help to clear the air.

As for personal choices if you choose to be gay it is just your choice. Keep

it to your self. since I was not consulted before making that choice, why

should I be bothered any way. My concern is where some of your colleagues

have gone around Africa using money to lure young people to join the

homosexuality camp. In a poverty ridden community, what do you expect of the

youth who are looking for survival? Do they like it no! I compare this with

prostitution, which practice some guys especially from outside African

countries are pushing to be legalized by our governments. They forget that

the issue is not to legalize the practice but to get a way of getting these

prostitutes off the road by supporting them with alternative income

generating activities. Do they like being referred to as prostitutes? Not at

all! Are they normal human beings? Yes. 100% normal. Should we surround and

kill all of them? No! But do we encourage more of them to join? Hell no!!!!

That is my line of argument regarding homesexuality in Africa.

Rev. Evatt Mugarura

>From: " M. " <fiar@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

>http://www.galha.freeserve.co.uk/glh/191/bagemihl.html

>Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:17:40 -0400

>

>At 02:41 PM 10/10/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>

> >The inflammatory language itself speaks volume. Aggressiveness is a human

> >(and animal) defence against perceived danger even if it is not there.

>

>I understand. It's OK--and I'm sure you'll be able to manage toning down

>your inflammatory rhetoric and aggression! I don't hold it against you, my

>dear.

>

> >That

> >is why you feel so inflammed just by being told that we do not agree with

> >you. You also don't have to agree with us. As I said before pleasure from

> >anal sex does not make it biologically right because you said so.

>

>What science says ANYTHING about what is " biologically right " ? Please do

>share the citations! I look forward to reading the research.

>

>You have an amazing aptitude for using science and other shields to justify

>your oppressive attitudes!

>

> >Give us

> >scientific proof that the biologic events going on are as normal as other

> >biologic processes. Go ahead if you enjoy it but don't call it right.

>

>I never refer to scientific " proof " but rather evidence, particularly in

>matters of complex systems such as biological ones. But indeed, I think the

>fact that same gender relations are found in nearly every phyla speaks at

>least to that aspect. For example:

>

>As to anal sex, it is very common among same and opposite genders. If you

>don't believe it is perfectly natural--well, the internet has PLENTY of

>explicit examples with a marvelous and sometimes positively acrobatic

>displays of activity! Heavens.

>

>Why, I've engaged in the activity myself, I'm happy to report! Both giving

>and receiving and have enjoyed both. And yep, seemed pretty natural. Not

>very scientific, I grant you but a VERY brief review of pubmed has yet to

>yield a lot of research on the topic. And, indeed, from Ghana:

>http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/artikel.php?ID=37809

>

> >This has nothing to do with whether we are " Tyrants, bigots, relgious

> >perverts " or any other adjective you wish to throw from your temper

>tantrums

>

>Bigotry is what it is, my friend! Sorry you don't like my opinion. Now, if

>you have some scientific evidence that supports your contention, I'm

>willing to consider it. For example, there are some data that suggest the

>incidence of HIV is lower among Muslims in Africa. It is unclear whether

>adherence to sexual mores of the faith, fear of expression of natural

>desires, circumcision, a lower " porosity " between muslims and other more

>affected groups or some mix thereof explains the lower incidence (see Gray

>PB, Soc Sci Med. 2004 May;58(9):1751-1756).

>

> >I still don't hear the African voice yet. It is your tantrums that I hear

> >defending the " defenceless " African. Let the oppressed African speak out

>and

> >then you join in your solidarity. The true African I assure you will have

> >the African dignity and will not join your chorus

>

>I've previously listed a number of websites of gay and lesbian

>organizations in Africa. Most in Africa probably simply would rather not

>address you because they are wise enough to know that your deafness is

>incurable.

>

>I wish you the best in this journey of life, sir. And that your heart is

>opened and lifted from this terrible oppression that you suffer and foist

>upon others.

> M.

>

_________________________________________________________________

Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!

http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

October 11, 2004

Dear Evatt--

You conflate many issues in your post!

Re sex work, that is a distinct issue. Some people choose that--others

don't. I agree wholeheartedly with regard to finding economic means to

improve people's opportunities so that choice is not necessary. For men,

women and ESPECIALLY children and young people. The latter are usually in

horribly abusive situations.

in re religion? Fuggehdabout it. I'm not going to argue that--but clearly,

most of the major religions have adherents that see homosexuality as NOT

being a sin. Others do. Again, personal choice.

As to " recruiting " people into homosexuality, that's nonsense. There's no

need to since it is natural and that's the way we are. Sexual attraction is

idiosyncratic. Whether it is nature or nurture is moot--my feeling is that

there is evidence suggesting that both are in play.

As to the numbers, I cannot answer that. But there probably are millions of

same-gender-attracted Africans. Again. Human nature is at play here.

Where we DO agree is that, regardless of orientation, people should have

information to make the best choices when it comes to sexuality and

preventing the spread of HIV, most particularly. And access to treatment.

And I am very glad to see you reject the notion of violence against people.

THAT I think is something that religion and ethics point to with which any

good hearted, sane human will agree. And I think you are a basically

good-hearted, sane human.

Where we have our problem is that you would rather we remain silent about

what who we are as humans. And that I will no longer abide in this life, my

friend. Silence = Death. Tho, as we have seen, sometimes speaking out can

result in suffering and death. I have had my share because of people who do

not like me simply because of my sexual orientation. An attitude that is as

despicable to me as racism, sexism or people hating religious people simply

because of their religion.

So I shall continue to speak out--and in the meantime, I think we may be

able to find methods to work together, areas where we DO agree that may

overcome our other, sometime profound and rocky disagreements.

May you have long life, good health and an ever gentler heart.

M.

At 05:00 PM 10/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>Dear ,

>

>If science has failed to clarify whether or not homosexuality is right, I

>suggest that we try religion. I wish you the best. The bottom line of all

>our debate is that we should address HIV/AIDS without wrapping it in ahidden

>agenda. Promoting homosexuality in Africa does not prevent further spread of

>HIV/AIDS! No one has attempted to answer the question on how the reported

>1.5 million gay young Kenyans was got. Geoff wrote to me this figure which

>bothers me so much and I would like him to tell the forum how he got the

>numbers if not through a systematic recruiting program of these youth. That

>will definately help to clear the air.

>

>As for personal choices if you choose to be gay it is just your choice. Keep

>it to your self. since I was not consulted before making that choice, why

>should I be bothered any way. My concern is where some of your colleagues

>have gone around Africa using money to lure young people to join the

>homosexuality camp. In a poverty ridden community, what do you expect of the

>youth who are looking for survival? Do they like it no! I compare this with

>prostitution, which practice some guys especially from outside African

>countries are pushing to be legalized by our governments. They forget that

>the issue is not to legalize the practice but to get a way of getting these

>prostitutes off the road by supporting them with alternative income

>generating activities. Do they like being referred to as prostitutes? Not at

>all! Are they normal human beings? Yes. 100% normal. Should we surround and

>kill all of them? No! But do we encourage more of them to join? Hell no!!!!

>That is my line of argument regarding homesexuality in Africa.

>

>Rev. Evatt Mugarura

October 11, 2004

Dear ,

Thank you for your compliments.

Speaking out is everyone's right. I can not stop people from speaking out at

all.

Like Dr. Abdullah put it to you, I do not believe the biological part of

homosexuality because if it was the case we would not be having all these

counter debates. The simple question to you and your colleagues is 'Why did

the majority of people in the universe embrace the hetersexual practice

right from creation of the first being and not homosexuality? Who corrupted

the whole process of having an even and balanced share for both? Why don't

we have at at least a single country in the world exclusively for

homosexuality where hetrosexuality would probably be seen as oppressed and

discriminated against?

Like I said, whoever has chosen what is his or her choice. For instance, as

a married person, I do not impose on people to get married if they choose

not to get married. Personal pure personal choice! But for such person to

start criticising every body that is married and to start a movement to

influence people not to marry would be seen as a disaster to some of us who

believe in sustaining our societies through procreation. Africans strongly

believe in being survived by their offsprings - children. So with this kind

of cultural background,the true Africans would find it difficult to agree

with the mentioned movemnt above.

Let us all listen to each other's view but above all respect people's

culture. Iam aware of the changing society but culture does not die out. It

goes through different levels with a lot of challenges but it's so strong

that it can not be wiped out. That is the background of all this resistence

and disagreement with you on the homosexuality idealogy. Feel free to

practice your homosexuality but avoid any temptation to promote it. I

repeat. Keep it personal. The struggle continues.

Evatt

>From: " M. " <fiar@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

>Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:39:19 -0400

>

>Dear Evatt--

>

>You conflate many issues in your post!

>

>Re sex work, that is a distinct issue. Some people choose that--others

>don't. I agree wholeheartedly with regard to finding economic means to

>improve people's opportunities so that choice is not necessary. For men,

>women and ESPECIALLY children and young people. The latter are usually in

>horribly abusive situations.

>

>in re religion? Fuggehdabout it. I'm not going to argue that--but clearly,

>most of the major religions have adherents that see homosexuality as NOT

>being a sin. Others do. Again, personal choice.

>

>As to " recruiting " people into homosexuality, that's nonsense. There's no

>need to since it is natural and that's the way we are. Sexual attraction is

>idiosyncratic. Whether it is nature or nurture is moot--my feeling is that

>there is evidence suggesting that both are in play.

>

>As to the numbers, I cannot answer that. But there probably are millions of

>same-gender-attracted Africans. Again. Human nature is at play here.

>

>Where we DO agree is that, regardless of orientation, people should have

>information to make the best choices when it comes to sexuality and

>preventing the spread of HIV, most particularly. And access to treatment.

>

>And I am very glad to see you reject the notion of violence against people.

>THAT I think is something that religion and ethics point to with which any

>good hearted, sane human will agree. And I think you are a basically

>good-hearted, sane human.

>

>Where we have our problem is that you would rather we remain silent about

>what who we are as humans. And that I will no longer abide in this life, my

>friend. Silence = Death. Tho, as we have seen, sometimes speaking out can

>result in suffering and death. I have had my share because of people who do

>not like me simply because of my sexual orientation. An attitude that is as

>despicable to me as racism, sexism or people hating religious people simply

>because of their religion.

>

>So I shall continue to speak out--and in the meantime, I think we may be

>able to find methods to work together, areas where we DO agree that may

>overcome our other, sometime profound and rocky disagreements.

>

>May you have long life, good health and an ever gentler heart.

> M.

>

>At 05:00 PM 10/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>

> >Dear ,

> >

> >If science has failed to clarify whether or not homosexuality is right, I

> >suggest that we try religion. I wish you the best. The bottom line of all

> >our debate is that we should address HIV/AIDS without wrapping it in

>ahidden

> >agenda. Promoting homosexuality in Africa does not prevent further spread

>of

> >HIV/AIDS! No one has attempted to answer the question on how the reported

> >1.5 million gay young Kenyans was got. Geoff wrote to me this figure

>which

> >bothers me so much and I would like him to tell the forum how he got the

> >numbers if not through a systematic recruiting program of these youth.

>That

> >will definately help to clear the air.

> >

> >As for personal choices if you choose to be gay it is just your choice.

>Keep

> >it to your self. since I was not consulted before making that choice, why

> >should I be bothered any way. My concern is where some of your colleagues

> >have gone around Africa using money to lure young people to join the

> >homosexuality camp. In a poverty ridden community, what do you expect of

>the

> >youth who are looking for survival? Do they like it no! I compare this

>with

> >prostitution, which practice some guys especially from outside African

> >countries are pushing to be legalized by our governments. They forget

>that

> >the issue is not to legalize the practice but to get a way of getting

>these

> >prostitutes off the road by supporting them with alternative income

> >generating activities. Do they like being referred to as prostitutes? Not

>at

> >all! Are they normal human beings? Yes. 100% normal. Should we surround

>and

> >kill all of them? No! But do we encourage more of them to join? Hell

>no!!!!

> >That is my line of argument regarding homesexuality in Africa.

> >

> >Rev. Evatt Mugarura

>

_________________________________________________________________

Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!

October 11, 2004

Geoff,

Could you kindly answer my question? How do you arrive at these figures?

What is the source? I am very much interested in knowing the source so that

I can inform my self more. Otherwise, I take it that you are just concocting

stories to support your argument which if not supported by evidence will

water down all you have put out as good stuff.

Evatt

>From: " Geoffrey Heaviside " <gheaviside@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

>Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 01:04:49 +1000

>

>Hello to list readers,

>

>I'm reading backwards as usual when I travel but eventually I will get back

>to where this flame war started.

>

>I have to say however that many of us are hearing the African Voices

>privately from all sides of the religious spectrum and although it is not

>the voice of the 3 million odd Kenyans who find themselves same sex

>attracted it does number in the hundreds and in some respects I feel that

>it

>would be pointless for them to air their views in this forum.

>

>Regardless of how people are oriented and how they find pleasure in sexual

>activity the most important message is for them, and for all of us, to

>understand in great detail how to avoid unwanted pregnancy and lethal

>infections.

>

>Surely that is the task of the members of this group if risk reduction and

>infection control is the primary purpose of the group.

>

>The same can be said for the 2.8 million same sex attracted Ugandans who

>could be forgiven for thinking that their government should also be

>considering their welfare as well.

>

>Clearly in both countries they are not represented in sufficient numbers in

>the legislature. They are certainly not vocal in the churches, assuming

>they

>can find sufficient pastoral care to stay connected.

>

>They are however capable and able to find information and support when

>necessary from an amazing array of resources.

>

>Those of us whose ministries extend to recognising them as people for whom

>Christ died or for whom Allah provides ministry and pastoral care, we will

>continue to identify with them and do whatever is necessary to afford them

>the understanding and support they need in spite of the death threats and

>hate that is meted out to them from many quarters. The one mitigating

>feature is that statistically they are not figuring as highly in the

>infection statistics as their hetrosexual counterparts. This must be due in

>part to the serial monogamy and secrecy that their orientation dictates.

>What saddens me is the number of them, especially in Kenya, who have had to

>marry an opposite sex partner in addition to the one they love, to find a

>place at the table.

>

>We are tallying at present the numbers of young same sex attracted suicide

>victims where pastoral visits are being made to village families by carers

>in Uganda on a weekly basis when they reach an age where it is no longer

>possible to hide their orientation. If the persons heading the persecution

>of the Radio Station in Uganda in the name of public morality can live with

>this, then God have mercy on their souls.

>

>He who has ears to hear let him hear and he who has eyes to see let him

>see.

>

>Geoffrey

>

>Geoff Heaviside

>Convenor - Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

>Secretary - International Centre for Health Equity Inc

>Member - Australasian Society for HIV Medicine Inc

>P.O. Box 606 Sunshine 3020

>. Australia.

>Ph: 0418 328 278

>Ph/Fax : (61 3) 9449 1856

>

>or in India

>Mr Geoff Heaviside

>

>Mobile : (91) 9840 097 178 (Only when in India)

>

> " Concern for what is right causes us to do our best - Knowledge of what is

>best inspires us to do what is right. "

>

> >From: " DR M S Abdullah " <abdullah@...>

> >Reply-AIDS treatments

> ><AIDS treatments >

> >Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

> >Kenya)/Geoff

> >Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:41:51 +0300

> >

>

October 12, 2004

At 09:10 PM 10/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>Dear ,

>

>Thank you for your compliments.

>

>Speaking out is everyone's right. I can not stop people from speaking out at

>all.

Likewise. Why should we wish to? (Unless people are speaking out demanding

the harming or killing of another group as in Rwanda.)

>Like Dr. Abdullah put it to you, I do not believe the biological part of

>homosexuality because if it was the case we would not be having all these

>counter debates.

I have no idea what you mean.

>The simple question to you

Ah--you raise several questions.

> and your colleagues is 'Why did

>the majority of people in the universe embrace the hetersexual practice

>right from creation of the first being and not homosexuality?

You were there? What first being? A diatom? A bonobo? Diatoms don't give a

fig for heterosexuality. Bonobos seem to enjoy all sorts of permutations

and indeed are less aggressive.

>Who corrupted

>the whole process of having an even and balanced share for both? Why don't

>we have at at least a single country in the world exclusively for

>homosexuality where hetrosexuality would probably be seen as oppressed and

>discriminated against?

What a bizarre set of questions! Universe--well, let's talk about planet

Earth. There is a LOT more to the Universe.

I don't know who corrupted the process. What process do you mean? What was

the corruption? Too many heterosexuals? What does corruption refer to?

Look, some of my best friends are hetero and I don't think they're corrupt!

It's like asking why did most people on the planet wind up Asian.

Look inside yourself. I presume you are attracted to the opposite sex.

EVERY person of the opposite sex? Or just some? You know that feeling you

get of longing, of startled awe at beauty, that rush of blood to the loins

that some individuals inspire?

That is what some of us naturally feel for some members of the same gender.

Is that induced by choice? By nature? By nurture?

I don't think that's even a relevant or important question. But I can say,

the instinctual and delighted response is perfectly natural and doesn't

feel to me like I chose it.

>snip

>Let us all listen to each other's view but above all respect people's

>culture. Iam aware of the changing society but culture does not die out. It

>goes through different levels with a lot of challenges but it's so strong

>that it can not be wiped out.

Nonsense. I'm not suggesting a culture SHOULD be wiped out ever. It is sad

when that happens. But cultures do die. And mutate. And transform.

On the other hand, some ASPECTS of cultures should be allowed to pass.

Female circumcision. Denying women the right to vote. Slavery. Oppression

of any kind.

>That is the background of all this resistence

>and disagreement with you on the homosexuality idealogy. Feel free to

>practice your homosexuality but avoid any temptation to promote it. I

>repeat. Keep it personal. The struggle continues.

Of course it is personal. If by that you mean I should be silent, I cannot

ever agree to that.

And I will stand by my lesbian and gay friends and supporters in Africa and

anywhere in the world. No culture has the right to justify its existence as

a tool of oppression. If that's your idea of culture, then I suggest it is

mistaken.

M.

October 12, 2004

Thank you for answering my bizzarre questions to you. The answers you have

given indicate that indeed the questions were bizzarre to you!

Evatt

>From: " M. " <fiar@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

>Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

>Kenya)/Geoff

>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 05:30:27 -0400

>

>At 09:10 PM 10/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>

> >Dear ,

> >

> >Thank you for your compliments.

> >

> >Speaking out is everyone's right. I can not stop people from speaking out

>at

> >all.

>

>Likewise. Why should we wish to? (Unless people are speaking out demanding

>the harming or killing of another group as in Rwanda.)

>

> >Like Dr. Abdullah put it to you, I do not believe the biological part of

> >homosexuality because if it was the case we would not be having all these

> >counter debates.

>

>I have no idea what you mean.

>

> >The simple question to you

>

>Ah--you raise several questions.

>

> > and your colleagues is 'Why did

> >the majority of people in the universe embrace the hetersexual practice

> >right from creation of the first being and not homosexuality?

>

>You were there? What first being? A diatom? A bonobo? Diatoms don't give a

>fig for heterosexuality. Bonobos seem to enjoy all sorts of permutations

>and indeed are less aggressive.

>

> >Who corrupted

> >the whole process of having an even and balanced share for both? Why

>don't

> >we have at at least a single country in the world exclusively for

> >homosexuality where hetrosexuality would probably be seen as oppressed

>and

> >discriminated against?

>

>What a bizarre set of questions! Universe--well, let's talk about planet

>Earth. There is a LOT more to the Universe.

>

>I don't know who corrupted the process. What process do you mean? What was

>the corruption? Too many heterosexuals? What does corruption refer to?

>Look, some of my best friends are hetero and I don't think they're corrupt!

>

>It's like asking why did most people on the planet wind up Asian.

>

>Look inside yourself. I presume you are attracted to the opposite sex.

>EVERY person of the opposite sex? Or just some? You know that feeling you

>get of longing, of startled awe at beauty, that rush of blood to the loins

>that some individuals inspire?

>

>That is what some of us naturally feel for some members of the same gender.

>Is that induced by choice? By nature? By nurture?

>

>I don't think that's even a relevant or important question. But I can say,

>the instinctual and delighted response is perfectly natural and doesn't

>feel to me like I chose it.

>

> >snip

> >Let us all listen to each other's view but above all respect people's

> >culture. Iam aware of the changing society but culture does not die out.

>It

> >goes through different levels with a lot of challenges but it's so strong

> >that it can not be wiped out.

>

>Nonsense. I'm not suggesting a culture SHOULD be wiped out ever. It is sad

>when that happens. But cultures do die. And mutate. And transform.

>

>On the other hand, some ASPECTS of cultures should be allowed to pass.

>Female circumcision. Denying women the right to vote. Slavery. Oppression

>of any kind.

>

> >That is the background of all this resistence

> >and disagreement with you on the homosexuality idealogy. Feel free to

> >practice your homosexuality but avoid any temptation to promote it. I

> >repeat. Keep it personal. The struggle continues.

>

>Of course it is personal. If by that you mean I should be silent, I cannot

>ever agree to that.

>

>And I will stand by my lesbian and gay friends and supporters in Africa and

>anywhere in the world. No culture has the right to justify its existence as

>a tool of oppression. If that's your idea of culture, then I suggest it is

>mistaken.

> M.

>

_________________________________________________________________

On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to

get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

October 12, 2004

Thank you ,

I have two problems with your posting. You remarked:

> However, if neither partner is infected (or both are), then there is

little

> relevance in terms of biological issues or whether it is " natural " or not.

My reaction to this statement is that when two people are both positive they

may not be carrying the same virus. One could be carrying a more virulent

variety. There is enough scientific evidence to show that those infected are

infected again with another strain which is more virulent. The consequences

are severe if this happens. Those who are positive should not take this

matter lightly and this is a fact.

Your second statement below is strange:

> converting heterosexuals and their perverse lifestyle into being happy and

> gay! Even though it would make sense to do so,

I find this strange. Why is heterosexual practice perverse. Why did God make

males and females of all species, unless HE blundered in his plans. By the

way are there homosexual animals of other varieties other than humans.

Dr. Mohamed Abdullah

Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International (in

Kenya)/Geoff

>

> At 02:51 PM 10/10/2004 +0300, you wrote:

>

> >Thank you Caroline. Your last sentence is the most important. People have

> >known all along that anal sex whether homosexual or heterosexual is the

most

> >unsafe. Precisely because the anal mucosa is not meant biologically for

that

> >purpose. IT is MORE EASILY traumatized and ruptured and does not offer

> >biologic protection from infections like the vaginal mucosa does. There

is a

> >lot of scientific information on this

>

> Agreed!! And I have no argument with that aspect in terms of the

> transmission of HIV! As well as other diseases. However, use of a condom

> will prevent this when one partner is infected.

>

> However, if neither partner is infected (or both are), then there is

little

> relevance in terms of biological issues or whether it is " natural " or not.

>

> >This is what I meant by biologic derangements. Some people still enjoy it

> >and do it, and this is their personal choice and problem. But it is not

safe

> >and they should not vehemently attract others into it despite knowing

that

> >it is the most unsafe thing to do, and savagely defend it as if the rest

of

> >the world is wrong.

>

> It is not a matter of " vehemently " trying to convert people into

activities

> they are not interested in. That would be just silly. As silly as

> converting heterosexuals and their perverse lifestyle into being happy and

> gay! Even though it would make sense to do so, given the problems with

> overpopulation. (LOL....so I'm being cheeky.)

>

> >When this is politely pointed out, that is when you see the emotional

> >outbursts and name calling which is not the rational way of dealing with

the

> >subject.

>

> That's not what you were pointing out originally, I don't think. But if I

> misunderstood and you were merely noting the risks of infection relating

to

> unprotected sex, and particularly anal sex, then we have no argument at

all!

>

> M.

>

> http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans

worldwide)

> Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in

>

October 12, 2004

Dear all,

As much as I enjoy the discussion I must confess I find it hard to

keep track on what exactly is being discussed.

Anyway... my take, for what it is worth:

" -If science has failed to clarify whether or not homosexuality is

right, I suggest that we try religion. "

Why should you want to do that for? Isn't it enough that

homosexuality exists. Period.

" - As for personal choices if you choose to be gay it is just your

choice. Keep it to your self "

Who chooses to be heterosexual? Did any of you come to a point when

you thought.. What shall I become? Homosexual or heterosexual?

True some of us come to a point in life where they choose (or have to

make the decision) to live as hetereosexuals. But that is something

else. As much as the majority of the people KNOW they are

hetereosexual, a minority of the people KNOW they are homosexual.

And for keeping it to yourself..... everytime one tells he is having

a wife.. is he exhibiting his hetereosexuality?

Discussing homosexuality is something different then promoting

homosexuality. When we discuss forced marriaged do we promote them?

No..not by definition, we just discuss what is there. And what is

there is that an average of 10 percent of the population is

homosexual to some extent.

Homosexuality is pervert? Oh.. I would say that any form of sex, be

it homosexual or hetereosexual, which has no bases in love is

pervert. And that definition makes a lot of hetereosexual acts

pervert acts. So everytime a woman/ girl is forced to have sex (in

our out of wedlock), everytime a boy/ man is forced to have sex,

everytime a woman/ girl/ man/boy is forced to marriage (and thus is

forced to have sex), everytime a person is forced by poverty (or any

other reason) to sell her/ his body for money and somebody buying it

is pervert. EVERY single sexual act which is not done with respect

and love is pervert. Scientific prove? Religious prove? Freud made

us scientifically believe that an clitoric orgasm is unnatural/

childish. And religious ideas change over time, differ between

different religions, differ between the different tendencies within

one religion, for one religion is about love and compassion for the

other religion is about do's and don'ts.

Back to anal intercourse and education… As long as it is a consensual

act between two people capable of making a free decision and it is

based on love, care and respect and they make sure the changes on std-

infections are minimized (that is all you can reach with all forms of

intercourse), which means no force, the use of condoms and lubricant

(?) and the act is not performed in the public sphere… .. why should

we interfere or condemn?

No, I am not promoting anal intercourse, but the fact that it isn't

my piece of cake doesn't mean I have to condemn it, not to discuss it

or call it pervert or unnatural (I only call it unnatural if I am

forced to do it). It is what it is.. and it exists. And in the fight

against HIV/AIDS we better educate people on how to do it safe when

they want to do it then to condemn it and silence it.. because people

will do it anyway.

Caroline

-- In AIDS treatments , " Evatt Mugarura " <emugarura@h...>

wrote:

>

> Thank you for answering my bizzarre questions to you. The answers

you have

> given indicate that indeed the questions were bizzarre to you!

>

> Evatt

>

> >From: " M. " <fiar@v...>

> >Reply-AIDS treatments

> >AIDS treatments

> >Subject: Re: Re: Ouko and WiRED International

(in

> >Kenya)/Geoff

> >Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 05:30:27 -0400

> >

> >At 09:10 PM 10/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:

> >

> > >Dear ,

> > >

> > >Thank you for your compliments.

> > >

> > >Speaking out is everyone's right. I can not stop people from

speaking out

> >at

> > >all.

> >

> >Likewise. Why should we wish to? (Unless people are speaking out

demanding

> >the harming or killing of another group as in Rwanda.)

> >

> > >Like Dr. Abdullah put it to you, I do not believe the biological

part of

> > >homosexuality because if it was the case we would not be having

all these

> > >counter debates.

> >

> >I have no idea what you mean.

> >

> > >The simple question to you

> >

> >Ah--you raise several questions.

> >

> > > and your colleagues is 'Why did

> > >the majority of people in the universe embrace the hetersexual

practice

> > >right from creation of the first being and not homosexuality?

> >

> >You were there? What first being? A diatom? A bonobo? Diatoms

don't give a

> >fig for heterosexuality. Bonobos seem to enjoy all sorts of

permutations

> >and indeed are less aggressive.

> >

> > >Who corrupted

> > >the whole process of having an even and balanced share for both?

Why

> >don't

> > >we have at at least a single country in the world exclusively for

> > >homosexuality where hetrosexuality would probably be seen as

oppressed

> >and

> > >discriminated against?

> >

> >What a bizarre set of questions! Universe--well, let's talk about

planet

> >Earth. There is a LOT more to the Universe.

> >

> >I don't know who corrupted the process. What process do you mean?

What was

> >the corruption? Too many heterosexuals? What does corruption refer

to?

> >Look, some of my best friends are hetero and I don't think they're

corrupt!

> >

> >It's like asking why did most people on the planet wind up Asian.

> >

> >Look inside yourself. I presume you are attracted to the opposite

sex.

> >EVERY person of the opposite sex? Or just some? You know that

feeling you

> >get of longing, of startled awe at beauty, that rush of blood to

the loins

> >that some individuals inspire?

> >

> >That is what some of us naturally feel for some members of the

same gender.

> >Is that induced by choice? By nature? By nurture?

> >

> >I don't think that's even a relevant or important question. But I

can say,

> >the instinctual and delighted response is perfectly natural and

doesn't

> >feel to me like I chose it.

> >

> > >snip

> > >Let us all listen to each other's view but above all respect

people's

> > >culture. Iam aware of the changing society but culture does not

die out.

> >It

> > >goes through different levels with a lot of challenges but it's

so strong

> > >that it can not be wiped out.

> >

> >Nonsense. I'm not suggesting a culture SHOULD be wiped out ever.

It is sad

> >when that happens. But cultures do die. And mutate. And transform.

> >

> >On the other hand, some ASPECTS of cultures should be allowed to

pass.

> >Female circumcision. Denying women the right to vote. Slavery.

Oppression

> >of any kind.

> >

> > >That is the background of all this resistence

> > >and disagreement with you on the homosexuality idealogy. Feel

free to

> > >practice your homosexuality but avoid any temptation to promote

it. I

> > >repeat. Keep it personal. The struggle continues.

> >

> >Of course it is personal. If by that you mean I should be silent,

I cannot

> >ever agree to that.

> >

> >And I will stand by my lesbian and gay friends and supporters in

Africa and

> >anywhere in the world. No culture has the right to justify its

existence as

> >a tool of oppression. If that's your idea of culture, then I

suggest it is

> >mistaken.

> > M.

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on

how to

> get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

October 12, 2004

Caroline,

I can see you convincing every one that is against promotion of

homosexuality. Since you seem to be more convinced that this is a mere

discussion of homosexuality and not its promotion, can you please help me to

understand how somebody, an advocate for issues around homosexuality, gets a

figure of 1.5 million homosexual young people in Kenya and 2.8 million

Ugandan who are same sex attracted and can not even quote the source of this

information? If he was in court he would be in prison for raising sensitive

issues without evidence. With this kind of background, I doubt if you are

well placed to make a conclusion that the debate was not meant to point out

promotion of homosexuality by some of our members of this forum. These

figures will always be a basis for me and my colleagues to attack anyone

that deviates from prevention of HIV/AIDS in Africa to promoting hidden

agendas such as homosexuality.

For your information, religion/faith does not change save religious

traditions. So I do not expect my religion or faith to change at any point.

Consensual hetrosexuality or homosexuality, love and care name them, I am

not in that line. My line of argument is that when you chose whatever kind

of sexuality, that is your personal choice. Do not try to impose it on

anyone. I am only interested in what benefits people generally but to shout

to us all the time to attract our attention to your personal choice is vague

and out of place. May be you could be doing the right thing in a wrong place

and to a wrong audience!

Blessings to you.

Evatt

>From: " yamanjanl " <yamanjanl@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments