RE: Message from the Catholic Chruch's Bishops

[Guest guest]

At 10:14 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =

> " urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office " />

>

>THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

>

>Our prayer is always full of hope

Sadly, their prayers are also sticking their heads deeply into the sand.

While much of the report says some nice things about, golly, maybe caring

for the sick instead of demonizing them (isn't that a nice thing), it's

pretty much not worth the electrons that dance around to display it on your

screen. Mostly generalized feel-good crap with virtually nothing of

substance. Maybe the next announcement will be how the world IS flat and

the sun DOES revolve around it.

Not ONCE in this document is the word " condom " mentioned. Pretty damn sad

and stupid. And seems to pretty much to negate the good intentions.

But, I am hopeful that the activity of the local groups will assure a more

caring approach that ignores the nonsense of this Pope and continues to

fight the good fight to stem the tide of HIV/AIDS.

M.

[Guest guest]

Let's just leave the church alone. The church takes care of the A (in ABC) -let others take care of the B and C elsewhere.

But I shouldn't be surprised -wasn't Noah of old laughed at as he constructed the ark?

-----Original Message-----From: M. [mailto:fiar@...]Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 1:35 PMAIDS treatments Subject: Re: Message from the Catholic Chruch's BishopsAt 10:14 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:>THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = >"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />>>THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:>>Our prayer is always full of hopeSadly, their prayers are also sticking their heads deeply into the sand. While much of the report says some nice things about, golly, maybe caring for the sick instead of demonizing them (isn't that a nice thing), it's pretty much not worth the electrons that dance around to display it on your screen. Mostly generalized feel-good crap with virtually nothing of substance. Maybe the next announcement will be how the world IS flat and the sun DOES revolve around it.Not ONCE in this document is the word "condom" mentioned. Pretty damn sad and stupid. And seems to pretty much to negate the good intentions.But, I am hopeful that the activity of the local groups will assure a more caring approach that ignores the nonsense of this Pope and continues to fight the good fight to stem the tide of HIV/AIDS. M. http://www./group/http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans worldwide)Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

[Guest guest]

An open letter to M.

Dear

Firstly, I do not know why you have to be so offensive. I am neither a

Roman Catholic nor a Christian but I cannot see why you need to be so

rude to those who profess their faith; they are simply doing what they

believe to be right in controlling the pandemic. I have not seen them

abuse you on the list.

Secondly, it is clearly the case that if everyone took their advice

there would be no pandemic - abstinence and fidelity (whilst

difficult!!!) are the only 100% ways of preventing infection - no-one

has ever contracted the virus through these practices. Condoms are only

second best at best - they tear etc. Furthermore, they do have to be

used each and every time and this is sometimes impossible to negotiate.

Many condom users have been infected. The promotion of the condom as

the answer is a step down the slippery slope; the Church is simply

saying don't put yourself at risk and we will do all we can to help you

avoid risk. All you are saying is ... go ahead, engage in potentially

harmful behaviour and hope that the condom doesn't split.

Thirdly, the Catholic Church is actively promoting economic

redistribution, better drug availability, compassion in treatment and

education. There is nothing wrong with any of this, is there? And

then you abuse them for it and suggest that they are being hypocritical.

This is unfair. You will, I guess, say ... well, some priests do not

live up to their vows and the Church could do more. Doubtless this is

right, but why criticise them for trying?

ly , I wonder if you are not, in fact that which the Catholic

Church might well call an advocatus diaboli? Or, a negative

propagandist? Showing by exposing the weaknesses of your own position

the strengths of the opposition. Indeed I think you have done more than

anyone else has ever done to show me the strength of the abstinence and

fidelity position.

However, unlike you, I am open to be convinced of the other position. I

am sure that many others are as well. So, , without abusing those

who don't agree with you - please tell us what policies you would

advocate (other than those openly endorsed by the Bishops) which would

cut infection levels and offer help to those facing the greatest threat

to human health ever experienced. Tell us why abstinence and fidelity

don't work. We know that the failure of abstinence and fidelity lead to

infection, just as the failure of condoms leads to infection. Why do

you think that the failure of condoms leaves a pro-condom policy intact,

whilst the failure of abstinence and fidelity does not leave a

pro-abstinence and fidelity policy intact?

bob

R.A.Watt

Senior lecturer in Laws

Tutor for admissions

Department of Law

University of Essex

watt@...

Re: Message from the Catholic Chruch's Bishops

At 10:14 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =

> " urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office " />

>

>THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

>

>Our prayer is always full of hope

Sadly, their prayers are also sticking their heads deeply into the sand.

While much of the report says some nice things about, golly, maybe

caring

for the sick instead of demonizing them (isn't that a nice thing), it's

pretty much not worth the electrons that dance around to display it on

your

screen. Mostly generalized feel-good crap with virtually nothing of

substance. Maybe the next announcement will be how the world IS flat and

the sun DOES revolve around it.

Not ONCE in this document is the word " condom " mentioned. Pretty damn

sad

and stupid. And seems to pretty much to negate the good intentions.

But, I am hopeful that the activity of the local groups will assure a

more

caring approach that ignores the nonsense of this Pope and continues to

fight the good fight to stem the tide of HIV/AIDS.

M.

http://www./group/

http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of

Africans worldwide)

Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT

in Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

[Guest guest]

Wonderful message and God bless the church! We've always asked the church to get involved fully - what more can we ask for?

-----Original Message-----From: Almedal, Calle [mailto:almedalc@...]Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 12:14 PMAIDS treatments ; mwananchi Cc: Kca_main ; africa-oped Subject: Message from the Catholic Chruch's BishopsImportance: High

THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF

THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

“Our prayer is always full of hope”

MESSAGE ISSUED BY SECAM

DAKAR 2003

Dear brothers and sisters in the faith,

Dear friends, fellow believers and all people of good will,

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!” (1 Cor. 1:3).

We, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops of Africa and Madagascar greet you in faith and with warm affection. Gathered in the 13th Plenary Assembly of our Bishops Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM), we have taken up the AIDS pandemic and its horrible consequences. In doing so we have been very close to you, our dear brothers and sisters who are infected and affected by HIV/AIDS and also to you who have been moved to join in the fight against the scourge of AIDS.

I We are in solidarity.

“For just as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many are one body, so it is with Christ”

(1 Cor. 12:12).

This eloquent image expresses well the solidarity that we feel towards all who suffer, but especially towards you our Christian brothers and sisters, who are one single body, with millions who make up the communities of Africa and Madagascar. It is on you that we call to join together in confronting the pandemic whose gravity no one can ignore.

May this solidarity be matched by a keen awareness of the seriousness of the threat facing us. Millions of lives have already been lost prematurely, whole families dismembered and untold numbers of children orphaned and/or infected by HIV. And it is they above all who need protection, nurture, housing, education and adult parents.

II Let’s be true to ourselves.

As heads of our Christian communities, we commit ourselves to making available our Church’s resources be they our educational and healthcare institutions or social services. We will work closely with all funders who are disposed to support and work with Christian and faith-based organisations. We are open to partnerships with them and others who are happy to put their resources to work in the struggle, and do so knowing well that we work according to our Gospel convictions. For “man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that issues from the mouth of God” (Mt 4: 4).

The morality we teach in God’s name seeks to respect and affirm human life which gets its value and dignity from the fact that it is the inviolable gift from our Father who creates every human being and calls everyone to the fullness of life. Therefore abstinence and fidelity are not only the best way to avoid becoming infected by HIV or infecting others, but even more are they the best way of ensuring progress towards lifelong happiness and true fulfilment.

“Never give in then, brothers and sisters, never admit defeat; keep on working at the Lord’s work always, knowing that, in the Lord, you cannot be labouring in vain” (1 Cor 15: 58).

III Let’s change behaviour.

Besides teaching the morality of the Church and sharing her moral convictions with civil society, and besides informing and alerting people to the dangers of HIV-infection, we want to educate appropriately and promote those changes in attitude and behaviour which value abstinence and self-control before marriage and fidelity within marriage. We want to become involved in affective and sexual education for life, to help young people and couples discover the wonder of their sexuality and their reproductive capacities. Out of such wonder and respect flow a responsible sexuality and method of managing fertility in mutual respect between the man and the woman.

This type of education can only be undertaken effectively with the active collaboration of lay men and women who not only speak about principles of morality but also, as youth and as couples, give living testimony that fidelity to these moral principles yields a humanising and fulfilling affective and sexual life. Such education also contributes to promoting healthy and stable families, and these are the best prevention against AIDS. Organizations[1] which specialise in such education for young people and for couples exist throughout Africa and are having a small but gratifying degree of success. We give them the support and encouragement they deserve.

IV Let’s be responsible.

The solidarity that we spoke of earlier binds us to joint responsibility in tackling the global and complex challenges facing us: interminable and recurrent wars, conflicts and violence in which rape is often used as a weapon, not just psychologically violent but physically destructive through HIV/AIDS!

We have also come to realise that poverty goes hand in hand with HIV and AIDS. It concerns us that our already fragile economies should be further weakened with much of the trained labour force lost to HIV and AIDS. Poverty facilitates the transmission of HIV, makes adequate treatment unaffordable, accelerates death from HIV-related illness and multiplies the social impact of the epidemic.

In all these senses, “Let all the parts [of the one body] feel the same concern for one another” (1 Cor 12:25). This solidarity among us and this fidelity to our faith, this resolve to change behaviour and assume our entire responsibility for the future of our continent, now take concrete form in the following Plan of Action. We pass it on so that you can also make it yours.

PLAN OF ACTION

We, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops of SECAM, propose to the members of the clergy, brothers and sisters in religious life, to the faithful and all people of good will, the following plan of action:[2]

I. In solidarity with you, we commit ourselves to:

1. Utilise and increase the human, material, and financial resources dedicated to address the situation of HIV and AIDS in our communities, and to identify focal points in parishes, dioceses, and national Episcopal conferences in order to assist with gathering information and development of programme strategies. In this same effort, we are committed to coordinating our efforts at the continental level in the struggle against the pandemic.

2. Make sure that the health services of the Church, the social services and the educational institutions respond appropriately to the needs of those who are ill with AIDS.

3. Focus on the particular vulnerability of girls and the heavy burden on women in the context of the HIV pandemic in Africa.

4. Advocate vigorously for access to treatment for those who are prevented from obtaining it through poverty and structural injustices.

5. Involve those who are knowledgeable about traditional medicines and other natural remedies in research into means of struggling against AIDS.

II. Faithful to our Gospel convictions, with you we commit ourselves to:

1. Collaborate with other Christian confessions and with people of other faiths working in their respective communities to support those affected and infected by HIV/AIDS.

2. Promote closer partnerships with civil society, the business sector, governments, the United Nations, international and intergovernmental agencies, and particularly with organisations of people living with HIV and AIDS, in order to increase the capacity for care and support, without diluting our evangelical convictions.

III. Facing the serious threat of AIDS, with you we are committed to:

1. Promote changes of mentality, attitude and behaviour necessary for confronting the challenge of the pandemic.

2. Work tirelessly to eradicate stigma and discrimination and to challenge any social, religious, cultural and political norms and practices which perpetuate such stigma and discrimination.

3. Play a major role in eradicating the damaging myths of stigma and discrimination by facilitating Voluntary Counselling and Testing (VCT) so that those who are infected might benefit from the care and support they need. This will also help better to control mother-to-child transmission.

4. Advocate with government at all levels and with inter-governmental organizations to establish policy priorities that adequately support those affected by HIV and AIDS, that provide access to care and treatment and a life of dignity for people living with HIV and AIDS, and that implement the commitments made at various inter-governmental meetings.

IV. In shared responsibility with you, we commit ourselves to:

1. Develop educational programmes which integrate the theme of HIV/AIDS in theology and religious formation. These programmes will also include moral principles and practical skills for promoting healthy relationships and a well-integrated sexuality.

2. Promote and deepen theological reflection on the virtues of compassion, love, healing, reconciliation, and hope, all of which are capable of confronting the judgement, shame, and fear that so often are associated with HIV and AIDS.

3. Organize workshops at the regional, national, diocesan and parish levels in order to increase accurate knowledge and sensitivity around all HIV and AIDS-related issues relevant to our Church.

4. Encourage people living with HIV/AIDS or affected by it to become actively involved, in our local communities, as resource persons in the struggle against the pandemic.

V. Finally, as Pastors of the Church Family of God in Africa in a time of AIDS, we want to:

1. Train clergy, religious, and committed laity to accompany people living with and affected by HIV and AIDS with prayer and spiritual counselling.

2. Provide doctrinal, spiritual and social formation, and the best possible professional training, for those willing to become involved in caring for and accompanying those who are living with and affected by HIV/AIDS.

3. Welcome people living with HIV and AIDS in a warm, non-judgemental and compassionate manner in our churches and ensure them a “place at the table of the Lord.”

4. Provide the sacraments and sacramentals, as appropriate and requested, to Catholics living with the virus.

5. Put into action the challenge addressed by our Holy Father Pope II to the Church in our continent through his Apostolic Exhortation, Ecclesia in Africa:

“The battle against AIDS ought to be everyone's battle. Echoing the voice of the Synod Fathers, I too ask pastoral workers to bring to their brothers and sisters affected by AIDS all possible material, moral and spiritual comfort. I urgently ask the world's scientists and political leaders, moved by the love and respect due to every human person, to use every means available in order to put an end to this scourge.”[3]

We intend to create an HIV/AIDS service on the Continental level in order to assist us in implementing our Plan of Action.

(Signed) Symposium of Episcopal Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM) in plenary session, Dakar, Senegal, 7th October, 2003.

[1] Education for Life, Youth Alive, Action Familiale, Pro Vita

[2] These recommendations are partly based on the Plan of Action prepared at the African Religious Leaders Assembly on Children and HIV/AIDS, Nairobi, 9-12 June 2002, and on the Proposed HIV/AIDS Plan of Action prepared at the SECAM Meeting of Secretaries General, Johannesburg, 24-27 October 2002.

[3] Pope II, Ecclesia in Africa, 14 September 1995, #116.http://www./group/http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans worldwide)Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

[Guest guest]

We can, and should, ask for the Vatican to become coherently, committedly and intelligently involved on a global level, and we can, and should, ask for the Pope to make a forceful statement to eradicate stigma and discrimination of people who are HIV+ and for access to treatment to them all.

RE: Message from the Catholic Chruch's Bishops

Wonderful message and God bless the church! We've always asked the church to get involved fully - what more can we ask for?

-----Original Message-----From: Almedal, Calle [mailto:almedalc@...]Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 12:14 PMAIDS treatments ; mwananchi Cc: Kca_main ; africa-oped Subject: Message from the Catholic Chruch's BishopsImportance: High

THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF

THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

“Our prayer is always full of hope”

MESSAGE ISSUED BY SECAM

DAKAR 2003

Dear brothers and sisters in the faith,

Dear friends, fellow believers and all people of good will,

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!” (1 Cor. 1:3).

We, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops of Africa and Madagascar greet you in faith and with warm affection. Gathered in the 13th Plenary Assembly of our Bishops Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM), we have taken up the AIDS pandemic and its horrible consequences. In doing so we have been very close to you, our dear brothers and sisters who are infected and affected by HIV/AIDS and also to you who have been moved to join in the fight against the scourge of AIDS.

I We are in solidarity.

“For just as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many are one body, so it is with Christ”

(1 Cor. 12:12).

This eloquent image expresses well the solidarity that we feel towards all who suffer, but especially towards you our Christian brothers and sisters, who are one single body, with millions who make up the communities of Africa and Madagascar. It is on you that we call to join together in confronting the pandemic whose gravity no one can ignore.

May this solidarity be matched by a keen awareness of the seriousness of the threat facing us. Millions of lives have already been lost prematurely, whole families dismembered and untold numbers of children orphaned and/or infected by HIV. And it is they above all who need protection, nurture, housing, education and adult parents.

II Let’s be true to ourselves.

As heads of our Christian communities, we commit ourselves to making available our Church’s resources be they our educational and healthcare institutions or social services. We will work closely with all funders who are disposed to support and work with Christian and faith-based organisations. We are open to partnerships with them and others who are happy to put their resources to work in the struggle, and do so knowing well that we work according to our Gospel convictions. For “man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that issues from the mouth of God” (Mt 4: 4).

The morality we teach in God’s name seeks to respect and affirm human life which gets its value and dignity from the fact that it is the inviolable gift from our Father who creates every human being and calls everyone to the fullness of life. Therefore abstinence and fidelity are not only the best way to avoid becoming infected by HIV or infecting others, but even more are they the best way of ensuring progress towards lifelong happiness and true fulfilment.

“Never give in then, brothers and sisters, never admit defeat; keep on working at the Lord’s work always, knowing that, in the Lord, you cannot be labouring in vain” (1 Cor 15: 58).

III Let’s change behaviour.

Besides teaching the morality of the Church and sharing her moral convictions with civil society, and besides informing and alerting people to the dangers of HIV-infection, we want to educate appropriately and promote those changes in attitude and behaviour which value abstinence and self-control before marriage and fidelity within marriage. We want to become involved in affective and sexual education for life, to help young people and couples discover the wonder of their sexuality and their reproductive capacities. Out of such wonder and respect flow a responsible sexuality and method of managing fertility in mutual respect between the man and the woman.

This type of education can only be undertaken effectively with the active collaboration of lay men and women who not only speak about principles of morality but also, as youth and as couples, give living testimony that fidelity to these moral principles yields a humanising and fulfilling affective and sexual life. Such education also contributes to promoting healthy and stable families, and these are the best prevention against AIDS. Organizations[1] which specialise in such education for young people and for couples exist throughout Africa and are having a small but gratifying degree of success. We give them the support and encouragement they deserve.

IV Let’s be responsible.

The solidarity that we spoke of earlier binds us to joint responsibility in tackling the global and complex challenges facing us: interminable and recurrent wars, conflicts and violence in which rape is often used as a weapon, not just psychologically violent but physically destructive through HIV/AIDS!

We have also come to realise that poverty goes hand in hand with HIV and AIDS. It concerns us that our already fragile economies should be further weakened with much of the trained labour force lost to HIV and AIDS. Poverty facilitates the transmission of HIV, makes adequate treatment unaffordable, accelerates death from HIV-related illness and multiplies the social impact of the epidemic.

In all these senses, “Let all the parts [of the one body] feel the same concern for one another” (1 Cor 12:25). This solidarity among us and this fidelity to our faith, this resolve to change behaviour and assume our entire responsibility for the future of our continent, now take concrete form in the following Plan of Action. We pass it on so that you can also make it yours.

PLAN OF ACTION

We, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops of SECAM, propose to the members of the clergy, brothers and sisters in religious life, to the faithful and all people of good will, the following plan of action:[2]

I. In solidarity with you, we commit ourselves to:

1. Utilise and increase the human, material, and financial resources dedicated to address the situation of HIV and AIDS in our communities, and to identify focal points in parishes, dioceses, and national Episcopal conferences in order to assist with gathering information and development of programme strategies. In this same effort, we are committed to coordinating our efforts at the continental level in the struggle against the pandemic.

2. Make sure that the health services of the Church, the social services and the educational institutions respond appropriately to the needs of those who are ill with AIDS.

3. Focus on the particular vulnerability of girls and the heavy burden on women in the context of the HIV pandemic in Africa.

4. Advocate vigorously for access to treatment for those who are prevented from obtaining it through poverty and structural injustices.

5. Involve those who are knowledgeable about traditional medicines and other natural remedies in research into means of struggling against AIDS.

II. Faithful to our Gospel convictions, with you we commit ourselves to:

1. Collaborate with other Christian confessions and with people of other faiths working in their respective communities to support those affected and infected by HIV/AIDS.

2. Promote closer partnerships with civil society, the business sector, governments, the United Nations, international and intergovernmental agencies, and particularly with organisations of people living with HIV and AIDS, in order to increase the capacity for care and support, without diluting our evangelical convictions.

III. Facing the serious threat of AIDS, with you we are committed to:

1. Promote changes of mentality, attitude and behaviour necessary for confronting the challenge of the pandemic.

2. Work tirelessly to eradicate stigma and discrimination and to challenge any social, religious, cultural and political norms and practices which perpetuate such stigma and discrimination.

3. Play a major role in eradicating the damaging myths of stigma and discrimination by facilitating Voluntary Counselling and Testing (VCT) so that those who are infected might benefit from the care and support they need. This will also help better to control mother-to-child transmission.

4. Advocate with government at all levels and with inter-governmental organizations to establish policy priorities that adequately support those affected by HIV and AIDS, that provide access to care and treatment and a life of dignity for people living with HIV and AIDS, and that implement the commitments made at various inter-governmental meetings.

IV. In shared responsibility with you, we commit ourselves to:

1. Develop educational programmes which integrate the theme of HIV/AIDS in theology and religious formation. These programmes will also include moral principles and practical skills for promoting healthy relationships and a well-integrated sexuality.

2. Promote and deepen theological reflection on the virtues of compassion, love, healing, reconciliation, and hope, all of which are capable of confronting the judgement, shame, and fear that so often are associated with HIV and AIDS.

3. Organize workshops at the regional, national, diocesan and parish levels in order to increase accurate knowledge and sensitivity around all HIV and AIDS-related issues relevant to our Church.

4. Encourage people living with HIV/AIDS or affected by it to become actively involved, in our local communities, as resource persons in the struggle against the pandemic.

V. Finally, as Pastors of the Church Family of God in Africa in a time of AIDS, we want to:

1. Train clergy, religious, and committed laity to accompany people living with and affected by HIV and AIDS with prayer and spiritual counselling.

2. Provide doctrinal, spiritual and social formation, and the best possible professional training, for those willing to become involved in caring for and accompanying those who are living with and affected by HIV/AIDS.

3. Welcome people living with HIV and AIDS in a warm, non-judgemental and compassionate manner in our churches and ensure them a “place at the table of the Lord.”

4. Provide the sacraments and sacramentals, as appropriate and requested, to Catholics living with the virus.

5. Put into action the challenge addressed by our Holy Father Pope II to the Church in our continent through his Apostolic Exhortation, Ecclesia in Africa:

“The battle against AIDS ought to be everyone's battle. Echoing the voice of the Synod Fathers, I too ask pastoral workers to bring to their brothers and sisters affected by AIDS all possible material, moral and spiritual comfort. I urgently ask the world's scientists and political leaders, moved by the love and respect due to every human person, to use every means available in order to put an end to this scourge.”[3]

We intend to create an HIV/AIDS service on the Continental level in order to assist us in implementing our Plan of Action.

(Signed) Symposium of Episcopal Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM) in plenary session, Dakar, Senegal, 7th October, 2003.

[1] Education for Life, Youth Alive, Action Familiale, Pro Vita

[2] These recommendations are partly based on the Plan of Action prepared at the African Religious Leaders Assembly on Children and HIV/AIDS, Nairobi, 9-12 June 2002, and on the Proposed HIV/AIDS Plan of Action prepared at the SECAM Meeting of Secretaries General, Johannesburg, 24-27 October 2002.

[3] Pope II, Ecclesia in Africa, 14 September 1995, #116.http://www./group/http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans worldwide)Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

[Guest guest]

An open (quick) letter to RA Watt.

For bandwidth, I'm not going to repeat your letter. Apologies upfront.

Rude? Yes, I'm rude to the Church heirarchy sometimes. I suppose someone

with your beliefs finds it thusly offensive. No less did some squeal in

righteous pain and horror when informed the earth was NOT the center of the

universe.

There are few data to support your view. They have a rather dismal history

when it comes to human rights, common sense and making outrageous and

foolish proclamations that they claim are made in the name of god. Happily,

many good Catholics dispute their occasional lapses of good sense.

Your second point that if everyone adopted abstinence and fidelity, the

world would be a peachy place and HIV would (mostly) vanish. Don't you

think that's kind of a silly, ostrich's head-in-the-sand notion? It ain't

gonna happen unless human nature takes a sudden change. Shall we wait to

see if that happens?

Will people still become infected using condoms? Yes. It is risk reduction,

not elimination. But it beats hell out of just ignoring the issue and

pretending that everyone will be perfect cause that's what Father said.

Yes, you CAN sway people to partner reduction--even some to abstinence. But

not everyone. And it is completely idiotic not to then give people who

choose to have sex the list of what intimate activities are safe (kissing,

not exchanging fluids, hugging, massage, mutual masturbation), somewhat

risky (oral sex, rimming) and very risky (penetrative anal and vaginal

sex--especially without a condom). If there is no condom, the chance of

getting infected is much higher (along with other concomitant factors such

as the transmitting individual's viral load, the vigor of the sexual

activity, practice of " dry sex " , presence or absence of lesions, esp.

related to sexually transmitted disease, circumsized or not, along with

other factors that may enhance infectivity).

You say " Thirdly, the Catholic Church is actively promoting economic

redistribution, better drug availability, compassion in treatment and

education. " All well and good right up to " education " if that is just more

" just say no " nonsense. It didn't work for the Reagan as a policy to

dealing with substance use in the US--and it never worked for the Church.

As to who might be the advocatus diaboli, I leave that to you. If I'm the

devil's advocate for pointing out that people have sex and that education

about HIV should help prevent them from acquiring or transmitting an

infection that has a strong likelihood of being fatal, then I shall dance

at the revolution and fry in hell, I suppose. Having watched too many

friends die already, I find that it is NECESSARY to criticize the Church

when it comes up with unsound policies that wind up killing people, while

hiding behind the skirts of hypocrisy.

Oh yes--and part of condom education--which the Church is AGAINST (at least

the heirarchy currently)--is that people look at the expiration date of

their latex condoms, know not to keep them in hot places, how to put them

on the erect penis properly, etc., to further minimize slippage or

breakage. This is WHY we need to have education--not merely lies spewed by

the Church about the size of HIV compared to condom pore-sizes (apparently

the term " surface tension " eluded Trujillo). It's not just that they

abdicate their responsibility by " leaving it to others " (a really vile,

pathetic dodge), but that they actively advocate against condoms.

It is obscene and stupid beyond all belief. Even dumber than Mbeki's

embrace of denialism.

M.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

It is necessary to be confrontational when you see what has

happened in Africa for two decades and you see the wasted

potential of lives lost simply because the Church chose to embrace

only a 100% effective abstinence campaign and offer nothing else

in Africa. The same churches offer much more elsewhere in the

world, why not in Africa?

Then to actively rubbish and ridicule education and prevention

campaigns that work so effectively elsewhere in the world at every

available opportunity, with information that is more extreme than

the old flat earth policy, thereby condemning even more young

Africans to their demise.

Sometimes the confrontation may seem rude. The young Africans I

have been speaking to have become very angry in the face of the

realisation of what they should and could have been told and their

anger will reflect on their adherence to the very places of love

and care that should and could have been more effective.

From many parts of Africa I am hearing comments from people who

should know that the Churches have single handedly done more to

further the spread of AIDS than any other single institution. Why

wouldn't those comments make it likely that some people might

express their contempt for such behaviour, no matter how

consistent with the tennents of the faith, in ways that might

appear rude.

I will continue to work with the individuals and organisations I

have had the privilege to meet personally in Africa simply because

they deserve it and they are my friends, but as far as policy

making and planning is concerned I am more than willing to let the

churches continue with their solutions until more local people

become aware of just how useless they have been and continue to be

in the face of the numbers. Of course they can advocate for care,

treatment and support but why not adequate and all encompassing

prevention as well, so as to reduce the increasing work load.

Surely Africans deserve more than abstinence as an option.

Progressive NGO's are delivering these other messages of course

but why can't the churches do likewise? Every positive and dying

African I met who was connected with a Faith Based community that

gave them no information that would have offered them a chance at

virus proofing, became an act of abuse towards me by those very

same churches. Some of their advocates have actually verbalised

the abuse by reminding me that the wages of sin is death and why

shouldn't fornicators die so don't think we haven't been abused.

You might be aware that Africa has the fidelity and abstinence

policy very firmly in place and it has been there for two decades

and look at the figures. The rest of the world has had the condom

policy in place and look at the figures there also. What the

evidence suggests is that Africans by and large didn't follow

either policy with due dilligence and you can either blame the

devil which is what the Bishops do, or you can blame the Africans

for failing to adopt the models. The best way to stop car

accidents is to ban motor cars but unfortunately that does not

meet with the approval of most travellers so that we had to

introduce a series of road rules and speed limits which protect

most of us but not all. My analogy is that the abstinence policy

is akin to banning motor cars. It just does not have popular

appeal and in the presence of a sexually transmissable pandemic

lots of dead people are inevitably the result of a total fidelity

and abstinance policy in action.

I have tried to say this as politely as possible but really when I

start writing about my Africa visit I might become down right

abusive at times.

Geoffrey

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 Watt, A wrote :

>An open letter to M.

>Dear

>Firstly, I do not know why you have to be so offensive.  I am

>neither a

>Roman Catholic nor a Christian but I cannot see why you need to

>be so

>rude to those who profess their faith; they are simply doing what

>they

>believe to be right in controlling the pandemic.  I have not seen

>them

>abuse you on the list.

>Secondly, it is clearly the case that if everyone took their

>advice

>there would be no pandemic - abstinence and fidelity (whilst

>difficult!!!) are the only 100% ways of preventing infection -

>no-one

>has ever contracted the virus through these practices. Condoms

>are only

>second best at best - they tear etc.  Furthermore, they do have

>to be

>used each and every time and this is sometimes impossible to

>negotiate.

>Many condom users have been infected.  The promotion of the

>condom as

>the answer is a step down the slippery slope; the Church is

>simply

>saying don't put yourself at risk and we will do all we can to

>help you

>avoid risk.  All you are saying is ... go ahead, engage in

>potentially

>harmful behaviour and hope that the condom doesn't split.

>Thirdly, the Catholic Church is actively promoting economic

>redistribution, better drug availability, compassion in treatment

>and

>education.  There is nothing wrong with any of this, is there?  

>And

>then you abuse them for it and suggest that they are being

>hypocritical.

>This is unfair.  You will, I guess, say ... well, some priests do

>not

>live up to their vows and the Church could do more. Doubtless

>this is

>right, but why criticise them for trying?

>ly , I wonder if you are not, in fact that which the

>Catholic

>Church might well call an advocatus diaboli?  Or, a negative

>propagandist?  Showing by exposing the weaknesses of your own

>position

>the strengths of the opposition.  Indeed I think you have done

>more than

>anyone else has ever done to show me the strength of the

>abstinence and

>fidelity position.

>However, unlike you, I am open to be convinced of the other

>position.  I

>am sure that many others are as well.  So, , without

>abusing those

>who don't agree with you - please tell us what policies you

>would

>advocate (other than those openly endorsed by the Bishops) which

>would

>cut infection levels and offer help to those facing the greatest

>threat

>to human health ever experienced.  Tell us why abstinence and

>fidelity

>don't work.  We know that the failure of abstinence and fidelity

>lead to

>infection, just as the failure of condoms leads to infection. 

>Why do

>you think that the failure of condoms leaves a pro-condom policy

>intact,

>whilst the failure of abstinence and fidelity does not leave a

>pro-abstinence and fidelity policy intact?

>bob

>R.A.Watt

>Senior lecturer in Laws

>Tutor for admissions

>Department of Law

>University of Essex

>watt@...

> Re: Message from the Catholic Chruch's

>Bishops

>At 10:14 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>>THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns

>>=

>> " urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office " />

>>

>>THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

>>

>>Our prayer is always full of hope

>Sadly, their prayers are also sticking their heads deeply into

>the sand.

>While much of the report says some nice things about, golly,

>maybe

>caring

>for the sick instead of demonizing them (isn't that a nice

>thing), it's

>pretty much not worth the electrons that dance around to display

>it on

>your

>screen. Mostly generalized feel-good crap with virtually nothing

>of

>substance. Maybe the next announcement will be how the world IS

>flat and

>the sun DOES revolve around it.

>Not ONCE in this document is the word " condom " mentioned. Pretty

>damn

>sad

>and stupid. And seems to pretty much to negate the good

>intentions.

>But, I am hopeful that the activity of the local groups will

>assure a

>more

>caring approach that ignores the nonsense of this Pope and

>continues to

>fight the good fight to stem the tide of HIV/AIDS.

> M.

>http://www./group/

>http://www./group/aids-africa

>(a group made up of

>Africans worldwide)

>Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that

>discusses IT

>in Africa at

>http://www./group/digafrica

>

[Guest guest]

ine please you are not going to defend the factual legitimacy

of the Noah story? Haven't you read about the jewish way of story

telling called Midrash. My understanding is that it is not to be

interpreted literally in the same way that we are not meant to

literally believe that Jonah lived in the belly of the whale for

three days. We should both know that this is literally not at all

possible but it makes a great bible story to tell us something

else about God.

The church has been left alone in Africa for more than two decades

taking care of A and look where Africa is today. If you were

marking the churches performance record in the light of the AIDS

pandemic what mark would you give them? In my book I would give

them a fail and withdraw their commission until they re-wrote the

rules having regard to the way the laws of nature have changed

since they wrote the last set. Even as we speak there is a growing

swell of bishops and priests demanding that their Pope verbally

embrace the pro life value of the latex that is saving so many

people from infection.

Geoffrey

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 Mwinzi, ine wrote :

>Let's just leave the church alone. The church takes care of the A

>(in ABC)

>-let others take care of the B and C elsewhere.

>

>But I shouldn't be surprised -wasn't Noah of old laughed at as

>he

>constructed the ark?

>

> Re: Message from the Catholic Chruch's

>Bishops

>

>

>At 10:14 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>

> >THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns

>=

> > " urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office " />

> >

> >THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

> >

> >Our prayer is always full of hope

>

>Sadly, their prayers are also sticking their heads deeply into

>the sand.

>While much of the report says some nice things about, golly,

>maybe caring

>for the sick instead of demonizing them (isn't that a nice

>thing), it's

>pretty much not worth the electrons that dance around to display

>it on your

>screen. Mostly generalized feel-good crap with virtually nothing

>of

>substance. Maybe the next announcement will be how the world IS

>flat and

>the sun DOES revolve around it.

>

>Not ONCE in this document is the word " condom " mentioned. Pretty

>damn sad

>and stupid. And seems to pretty much to negate the good

>intentions.

>

>But, I am hopeful that the activity of the local groups will

>assure a more

>caring approach that ignores the nonsense of this Pope and

>continues to

>fight the good fight to stem the tide of HIV/AIDS.

> M.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What really puzzles me is how anyone could think that the Catholic Church or

anyone else (and I repeat I am neither a Catholic nor a Christian) could be

convinced by anyone shouting abuse at them. The Church has a coherent position

and no one has come up with an argument against it - let me put my question

again: A & F is 100% efficient if followed; condoms are much less efficient for

two reasons: physical failure and social failure (women get 'persuaded' out of

using them ('persuaded' being an umbrella term for anything from physical

violence down to blandishments). 'Just say no' requires both men and women to

exercise self-control - it shares the burden. Now if A & F fails the

/Heaviside test because people can't be continent and therefore, by their

reasoning, A & F should be jettisoned, why doesn't the same reasoning attach to

the condom policy and lead us to reject condoms?

No-one ever died of lack of sex - too many people get messed up through casual

sex +/- HIV

bob

R.A.Watt

Senior lecturer in Laws

Tutor for admissions

Department of Law

University of Essex

watt@...

Re: Message from the Catholic Chruch's

>Bishops

>At 10:14 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>>THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns

>>=

>> " urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office " />

>>

>>THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

>>

>>Our prayer is always full of hope

>Sadly, their prayers are also sticking their heads deeply into

>the sand.

>While much of the report says some nice things about, golly,

>maybe

>caring

>for the sick instead of demonizing them (isn't that a nice

>thing), it's

>pretty much not worth the electrons that dance around to display

>it on

>your

>screen. Mostly generalized feel-good crap with virtually nothing

>of

>substance. Maybe the next announcement will be how the world IS

>flat and

>the sun DOES revolve around it.

>Not ONCE in this document is the word " condom " mentioned. Pretty

>damn

>sad

>and stupid. And seems to pretty much to negate the good

>intentions.

>But, I am hopeful that the activity of the local groups will

>assure a

>more

>caring approach that ignores the nonsense of this Pope and

>continues to

>fight the good fight to stem the tide of HIV/AIDS.

> M.

>http://www./group/

>http://www./group/aids-africa

>(a group made up of

>Africans worldwide)

>Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that

>discusses IT

>in Africa at

>http://www./group/digafrica

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

I posted this article below a few days ago because I see it as a sign of hope and of change--with faith-based communities as a whole more and more recognizing that HIV/AIDS is something which must be addressed with compassion, caring, love, and activism--even though I also agree with Calle, , Geoff and others who feel that more can be done. Great change often happens only through an evolutionary process; I would say that the steps taken in the past few years in terms of official policies by faith-based communities are even somewhat revolutionary, given where they were at just 5-10 years ago (though Calle has often rightfully pointed out that some individuals and denominations as a whole have been ahead of others in terms of addressing HIV/AIDS in a positive, caring way), with some even leading the way ahead of governments and other bodies, not only laypeople but those who are "of the cloth". Perhaps the dual nature of World AIDS Day itself--as a celebration and observance--can guide our own feelings here: clearly, there is much to celebrate in terms of "progress" on views and activism re HIV/AIDS, and clearly there is much work still to be done, something we can observe and take note of (even if we have different views about what needs to be done), while not letting the latter dampen our spirit of hope and of happiness for what is being accomplished.

One of the other reasons I posted this is the observation about working with others within the ecclesiastical framework of official policy. There is a dual perspective here as well: the exhortation or encouragement to work with others, perhaps even those who think and feel very differently about certain issues, while at the same time the acknowledgement that, on some issues, there will be divergent paths. There is still plenty of work to be done by all of us, and what we can do together--despite differences--is as important as what we may want or need to do in like-minded communities of effort. Treatment access and availability we might all want to work on together and be able to agree on, condom use and abstinence we might not be, but that doesn't mean those of us who believe in one or the other--or both as part of a broad-based repertoire of tools to address this pandemic--cannot work on the piece we believe in, and leave the other to those who feel the same about their own preferred choice. All have the goal of stopping the spread of HIV/AIDS, and that is also something each and every one of us fervently hopes to do, even if we approach same from differing perspectives.

Thanks to all of these various "means", we may someday see an "end" to HIV/AIDS, at least in its spread and the terrible suffering and loss of life it causes, and perhaps even in its eradication. The anthem of the civil-rights movement in the United States--keep your eyes on the prize and move on--is important to remember here, as we do need to keep going, keep moving forward to reach our goal, and all of us working in both divergent and convergent ways can help the world to reach that destination, the "prize" being not only prevention/amelioration/eradication of HIV/AIDS, but greater promise for human life in general. Thanks and all best wishes, Janet RE: Message from the Catholic Chruch's Bishops

Wonderful message and God bless the church! We've always asked the church to get involved fully - what more can we ask for?

-----Original Message-----From: Almedal, Calle [mailto:almedalc@...]Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 12:14 PMAIDS treatments ; mwananchi Cc: Kca_main ; africa-oped Subject: Message from the Catholic Chruch's BishopsImportance: High

THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF

THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

“Our prayer is always full of hope”

MESSAGE ISSUED BY SECAM

DAKAR 2003

Dear brothers and sisters in the faith,

Dear friends, fellow believers and all people of good will,

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!” (1 Cor. 1:3).

We, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops of Africa and Madagascar greet you in faith and with warm affection. Gathered in the 13th Plenary Assembly of our Bishops Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM), we have taken up the AIDS pandemic and its horrible consequences. In doing so we have been very close to you, our dear brothers and sisters who are infected and affected by HIV/AIDS and also to you who have been moved to join in the fight against the scourge of AIDS.

I We are in solidarity.

“For just as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many are one body, so it is with Christ”

(1 Cor. 12:12).

This eloquent image expresses well the solidarity that we feel towards all who suffer, but especially towards you our Christian brothers and sisters, who are one single body, with millions who make up the communities of Africa and Madagascar. It is on you that we call to join together in confronting the pandemic whose gravity no one can ignore.

May this solidarity be matched by a keen awareness of the seriousness of the threat facing us. Millions of lives have already been lost prematurely, whole families dismembered and untold numbers of children orphaned and/or infected by HIV. And it is they above all who need protection, nurture, housing, education and adult parents.

II Let’s be true to ourselves.

As heads of our Christian communities, we commit ourselves to making available our Church’s resources be they our educational and healthcare institutions or social services. We will work closely with all funders who are disposed to support and work with Christian and faith-based organisations. We are open to partnerships with them and others who are happy to put their resources to work in the struggle, and do so knowing well that we work according to our Gospel convictions. For “man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that issues from the mouth of God” (Mt 4: 4).

The morality we teach in God’s name seeks to respect and affirm human life which gets its value and dignity from the fact that it is the inviolable gift from our Father who creates every human being and calls everyone to the fullness of life. Therefore abstinence and fidelity are not only the best way to avoid becoming infected by HIV or infecting others, but even more are they the best way of ensuring progress towards lifelong happiness and true fulfilment.

“Never give in then, brothers and sisters, never admit defeat; keep on working at the Lord’s work always, knowing that, in the Lord, you cannot be labouring in vain” (1 Cor 15: 58).

III Let’s change behaviour.

Besides teaching the morality of the Church and sharing her moral convictions with civil society, and besides informing and alerting people to the dangers of HIV-infection, we want to educate appropriately and promote those changes in attitude and behaviour which value abstinence and self-control before marriage and fidelity within marriage. We want to become involved in affective and sexual education for life, to help young people and couples discover the wonder of their sexuality and their reproductive capacities. Out of such wonder and respect flow a responsible sexuality and method of managing fertility in mutual respect between the man and the woman.

This type of education can only be undertaken effectively with the active collaboration of lay men and women who not only speak about principles of morality but also, as youth and as couples, give living testimony that fidelity to these moral principles yields a humanising and fulfilling affective and sexual life. Such education also contributes to promoting healthy and stable families, and these are the best prevention against AIDS. Organizations[1] which specialise in such education for young people and for couples exist throughout Africa and are having a small but gratifying degree of success. We give them the support and encouragement they deserve.

IV Let’s be responsible.

The solidarity that we spoke of earlier binds us to joint responsibility in tackling the global and complex challenges facing us: interminable and recurrent wars, conflicts and violence in which rape is often used as a weapon, not just psychologically violent but physically destructive through HIV/AIDS!

We have also come to realise that poverty goes hand in hand with HIV and AIDS. It concerns us that our already fragile economies should be further weakened with much of the trained labour force lost to HIV and AIDS. Poverty facilitates the transmission of HIV, makes adequate treatment unaffordable, accelerates death from HIV-related illness and multiplies the social impact of the epidemic.

In all these senses, “Let all the parts [of the one body] feel the same concern for one another” (1 Cor 12:25). This solidarity among us and this fidelity to our faith, this resolve to change behaviour and assume our entire responsibility for the future of our continent, now take concrete form in the following Plan of Action. We pass it on so that you can also make it yours.

PLAN OF ACTION

We, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops of SECAM, propose to the members of the clergy, brothers and sisters in religious life, to the faithful and all people of good will, the following plan of action:[2]

I. In solidarity with you, we commit ourselves to:

1. Utilise and increase the human, material, and financial resources dedicated to address the situation of HIV and AIDS in our communities, and to identify focal points in parishes, dioceses, and national Episcopal conferences in order to assist with gathering information and development of programme strategies. In this same effort, we are committed to coordinating our efforts at the continental level in the struggle against the pandemic.

2. Make sure that the health services of the Church, the social services and the educational institutions respond appropriately to the needs of those who are ill with AIDS.

3. Focus on the particular vulnerability of girls and the heavy burden on women in the context of the HIV pandemic in Africa.

4. Advocate vigorously for access to treatment for those who are prevented from obtaining it through poverty and structural injustices.

5. Involve those who are knowledgeable about traditional medicines and other natural remedies in research into means of struggling against AIDS.

II. Faithful to our Gospel convictions, with you we commit ourselves to:

1. Collaborate with other Christian confessions and with people of other faiths working in their respective communities to support those affected and infected by HIV/AIDS.

2. Promote closer partnerships with civil society, the business sector, governments, the United Nations, international and intergovernmental agencies, and particularly with organisations of people living with HIV and AIDS, in order to increase the capacity for care and support, without diluting our evangelical convictions.

III. Facing the serious threat of AIDS, with you we are committed to:

1. Promote changes of mentality, attitude and behaviour necessary for confronting the challenge of the pandemic.

2. Work tirelessly to eradicate stigma and discrimination and to challenge any social, religious, cultural and political norms and practices which perpetuate such stigma and discrimination.

3. Play a major role in eradicating the damaging myths of stigma and discrimination by facilitating Voluntary Counselling and Testing (VCT) so that those who are infected might benefit from the care and support they need. This will also help better to control mother-to-child transmission.

4. Advocate with government at all levels and with inter-governmental organizations to establish policy priorities that adequately support those affected by HIV and AIDS, that provide access to care and treatment and a life of dignity for people living with HIV and AIDS, and that implement the commitments made at various inter-governmental meetings.

IV. In shared responsibility with you, we commit ourselves to:

1. Develop educational programmes which integrate the theme of HIV/AIDS in theology and religious formation. These programmes will also include moral principles and practical skills for promoting healthy relationships and a well-integrated sexuality.

2. Promote and deepen theological reflection on the virtues of compassion, love, healing, reconciliation, and hope, all of which are capable of confronting the judgement, shame, and fear that so often are associated with HIV and AIDS.

3. Organize workshops at the regional, national, diocesan and parish levels in order to increase accurate knowledge and sensitivity around all HIV and AIDS-related issues relevant to our Church.

4. Encourage people living with HIV/AIDS or affected by it to become actively involved, in our local communities, as resource persons in the struggle against the pandemic.

V. Finally, as Pastors of the Church Family of God in Africa in a time of AIDS, we want to:

1. Train clergy, religious, and committed laity to accompany people living with and affected by HIV and AIDS with prayer and spiritual counselling.

2. Provide doctrinal, spiritual and social formation, and the best possible professional training, for those willing to become involved in caring for and accompanying those who are living with and affected by HIV/AIDS.

3. Welcome people living with HIV and AIDS in a warm, non-judgemental and compassionate manner in our churches and ensure them a “place at the table of the Lord.”

4. Provide the sacraments and sacramentals, as appropriate and requested, to Catholics living with the virus.

5. Put into action the challenge addressed by our Holy Father Pope II to the Church in our continent through his Apostolic Exhortation, Ecclesia in Africa:

“The battle against AIDS ought to be everyone's battle. Echoing the voice of the Synod Fathers, I too ask pastoral workers to bring to their brothers and sisters affected by AIDS all possible material, moral and spiritual comfort. I urgently ask the world's scientists and political leaders, moved by the love and respect due to every human person, to use every means available in order to put an end to this scourge.”[3]

We intend to create an HIV/AIDS service on the Continental level in order to assist us in implementing our Plan of Action.

(Signed) Symposium of Episcopal Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM) in plenary session, Dakar, Senegal, 7th October, 2003.

[1] Education for Life, Youth Alive, Action Familiale, Pro Vita

[2] These recommendations are partly based on the Plan of Action prepared at the African Religious Leaders Assembly on Children and HIV/AIDS, Nairobi, 9-12 June 2002, and on the Proposed HIV/AIDS Plan of Action prepared at the SECAM Meeting of Secretaries General, Johannesburg, 24-27 October 2002.

[3] Pope II, Ecclesia in Africa, 14 September 1995, #116.http://www./group/http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans worldwide)Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

[Guest guest]

Your sense of logic is seriously flawed, I'm sorry to say. The " If, then " that

you posit is of course true. If A & F are adhered to strictly, there is a strong

reduction in the risk of acquisition of HIV. However, the IF is rather large for

many people. It's maybe not the way you would like to see the world be, but that

IS the way many people behave. Therefore, condoms are necessary as a part of a

public campaing. For the Catholic Church to actively fight them is wrong (and,

tho the referenced document doesn't reflect this, it IS what the higher ups have

done).

That's just the simple reality. Are you saying it is not?

Sorry I can't carry on the debate for now--will pick it up later but will not

have ready internet access for a time.

M.

>

> From: " Watt, A " <watt@...>

> Date: 2003/12/02 Tue PM 05:56:26 GMT+05:30

> <AIDS treatments >

> Subject: RE: RE: Message from the Catholic Chruch's Bishops

>

> What really puzzles me is how anyone could think that the Catholic Church or

anyone else (and I repeat I am neither a Catholic nor a Christian) could be

convinced by anyone shouting abuse at them. The Church has a coherent position

and no one has come up with an argument against it - let me put my question

again: A & F is 100% efficient if followed; condoms are much less efficient for

two reasons: physical failure and social failure (women get 'persuaded' out of

using them ('persuaded' being an umbrella term for anything from physical

violence down to blandishments). 'Just say no' requires both men and women to

exercise self-control - it shares the burden. Now if A & F fails the

/Heaviside test because people can't be continent and therefore, by their

reasoning, A & F should be jettisoned, why doesn't the same reasoning attach to

the condom policy and lead us to reject condoms?

> No-one ever died of lack of sex - too many people get messed up through casual

sex +/- HIV

> bob

> R.A.Watt

> Senior lecturer in Laws

> Tutor for admissions

> Department of Law

> University of Essex

> watt@...

>

>

> Re: Message from the Catholic Chruch's

> >Bishops

> >At 10:14 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:

> >>THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns

> >>=

> >> " urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office " />

> >>

> >>THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

> >>

> >>Our prayer is always full of hope

> >Sadly, their prayers are also sticking their heads deeply into

> >the sand.

> >While much of the report says some nice things about, golly,

> >maybe

> >caring

> >for the sick instead of demonizing them (isn't that a nice

> >thing), it's

> >pretty much not worth the electrons that dance around to display

> >it on

> >your

> >screen. Mostly generalized feel-good crap with virtually nothing

> >of

> >substance. Maybe the next announcement will be how the world IS

> >flat and

> >the sun DOES revolve around it.

> >Not ONCE in this document is the word " condom " mentioned. Pretty

> >damn

> >sad

> >and stupid. And seems to pretty much to negate the good

> >intentions.

> >But, I am hopeful that the activity of the local groups will

> >assure a

> >more

> >caring approach that ignores the nonsense of this Pope and

> >continues to

> >fight the good fight to stem the tide of HIV/AIDS.

> > M.

> >http://www./group/

> >http://www./group/aids-africa

> >(a group made up of

> >Africans worldwide)

> >Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that

> >discusses IT

> >in Africa at

> >http://www./group/digafrica

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi to the list from Malaysia,

OK I agree with all that is contained within this message but the

extreme anger and distrust that emanated from young Kenyans who

found out things that they had previously been denied about

protection and sexual health and safety is going to take some

healing.

I also think that it is high time that the African Council of

Churches abandons the " AFRICA VERSION " of the World Council of

Churches manual for the Care and support of people living with

HIV/AIDS.

From what I saw this is a censored version of the code of ethics

and conduct that all denominations elsewhere other than in Africa

are meant to follow by their member denominations.

Why Africa had to have an " African Version " in the first place

still irritates me. The fact that I found a copy of it by accident

at the PACONET conference of high powered church leaders meeting

at the Methodist Conference Centre in Nairobi means that it has

not been made widely known that African faith based organisations,

by some sort of collaboration or by deceit have not been accessing

the full text of the WCC document. My concern is about

intellectual honesty and the protection that might have been

afforded many young africans for nearly two decades and what

difference it might have made if the " Africa Version " had never

been culled in the first place.

This requires more than an evolutionary process and it is echoed

in other parts of Africa wherein other highly placed officials

have openly stated that the churches have done more harm than good

so far, so lets start by exposing the " Africa Version " as a fraud

even to the extent of exposing those who dared to consider that

Africa needed that sort of protection and just be a bit more

honest. After all the only way to stop the spread of the epidemic

in Africa is to stop uninfected African's becoming infected and

that will take more than the constant harping on abstinence and

faithfulness where a substantial proportion of the country don't

even know what the 'A' word even means. Certainly not the

border-border riders in Western Kisumu Kenya. It also does not

take into account the sexuallly active africans for whom

faithfulness is just not yet applicable to their life styles for a

whole range of cultural reasons that don't need to be enumerated

here.

Only then will be see some measurable outcomes.

Geoffrey

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 Janet Feldman wrote :

>Message

>Dear Friends,

>I posted this article below a few days ago because I see it as a

>sign of hope and of change--with faith-based communities as a

>whole more and more recognizing that HIV/AIDS is something which

>must be addressed with compassion, caring, love, and

>activism--even though I also agree with Calle, , Geoff and

>others who feel that more can be done. Great change often happens

>only through an evolutionary process; I would say that the steps

>taken in the past few years in terms of official policies by

>faith-based communities are even somewhat revolutionary, given

>where they were at just 5-10 years ago (though Calle has often

>rightfully pointed out that some individuals and denominations as

>a whole have been ahead of others in terms of addressing HIV/AIDS

>in a positive, caring way), with some even leading the way ahead

>of governments and other bodies, not only laypeople but those who

>are " of the cloth " . Perhaps the dual nature of World AIDS Day

>itself--as a celebration and observance--can guide our own

>feelings here:  clearly, there is much to celebrate in terms of

> " progress " on views and activism re HIV/AIDS, and clearly there

>is much work still to be done, something we can observe and take

>note of (even if we have different views about what needs to be

>done), while not letting the latter dampen our spirit of hope and

>of happiness for what is being accomplished.

>

>One of the other reasons I posted this is the observation about

>working with others within the ecclesiastical framework of

>official policy. There is a dual perspective here as well:  the

>exhortation or encouragement to work with others, perhaps even

>those who think and feel very differently about certain issues,

>while at the same time the acknowledgement that, on some issues,

>there will be divergent paths. There is still plenty of work to

>be done by all of us, and what we can do together--despite

>differences--is as important as what we may want or need to do in

>like-minded communities of effort. Treatment access and

>availability we might all want to work on together and be able to

>agree on, condom use and abstinence we might not be, but that

>doesn't mean those of us who believe in one or the other--or both

>as part of a broad-based repertoire of tools to address this

>pandemic--cannot work on the piece we believe in, and leave the

>other to those who feel the same about their own preferred

>choice. All have the goal of stopping the spread of HIV/AIDS, and

>that is also something each and every one of us fervently hopes

>to do, even if we approach same from differing perspectives.

>

>Thanks to all of these various " means " , we may someday see an

> " end " to HIV/AIDS, at least in its spread and the terrible

>suffering and loss of life it causes, and perhaps even in its

>eradication. The anthem of the civil-rights movement in the

>United States--

>keep your eyes on the prize and move on

>--is important to remember here, as we do need to keep going,

>keep moving forward to reach our goal, and all of us working in

>both divergent and convergent ways can help the world to reach

>that destination, the " prize " being not only

>prevention/amelioration/eradication of HIV/AIDS, but greater

>promise for human life in general. Thanks and all best wishes,

>Janet

Geoff Heaviside

Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

A Social Justice & Welfare Service Agency

P.O. Box 606

SUNSHINE 3020 Australia

Ph: +61 3 9449 1856 - Local (03) 9449 1856

Cell +61418328278 - Local 0418 328 278

INDIA

Geoff Heaviside

T.Nagar 600017

Chennai India

Cell 9840 097 178

" Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for

lunch.

Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesti

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I think that what constitutes 'shouting abuse' is more to the fact

that if the Catholic Church subscribes to a philosophy for its

members it should refrain from disordering the lives of those who

don't. It has been necessary to correct the formal and official

versions of what I like to call pro-life latex for the sake of the

health of the communities in which that church holds a declining

part, especially in Africa. When it speaks it speaks very loudly

and with some force out of context to its relative position as

just one voice amongst many and it just so happens that the many

are now dying from the fact that they became infected with the

virus when they needn't have, if proper and timely internationally

accredited standards of sexual health and safety had been

proclaimed instead.

That is what this argument or debate is about and the ignorance

has got to stop if the infection rate is going to be halted.

Of course when it comes to the infected many of them will be cared

for by this denomination provided they became infected by an

ordered process of having sex. Others will be chased away as

deviants only to go on infecting others.

We have to deal with modes of transmission and that has to include

all of them and all the groups or people and practices that are

involved or we will not win.

That means that morality must take second place.

Of course we all know that abstinence works perfectly without the

church having to shout it at every opportunity. The problem lies

in the fact that it is practiced by very few of the population

hence the epidemic.

Condom use is 99% effective which is not a bad rating and as such

it should be embraced as a prevention option, in fact as a

pro-life prevention option as some of my catholic colleagues have

told me.

To do otherwise is neither wise nor coherent unfortunately as time

will tell.

Of course there is some work to do around gender equity, rights

and respect but these can and should be addressed even from the

pulpit. Of course this represents a problem for the catholic

church which does not respect the divergent gifts and abilities of

women in all of its life and witness but that has changed in the

Anglican faith and secretly it passes in some understaffed

catholic parishes where there is just no capable ordained male

priest available.

Coherency has to be coherent and in mainstream catholicism it is

not.

There is no suggestion that A & F are being jettisoned. Surely if

they had the epidemic might be even worse.

Continence which I have never had occasion to address except in

respect to bladders and bowels, is an interesting use of the term

applied to the act of mating. Mating is something that all human

beings are programmed for. Some of the programming is variant,

some is illegal but continence is not a useful description in the

midst of this epidemic simply because the horse has already

bolted. I might add that the mating urge has been variant since

the church had the franchise for prostitution which predates the

Hebrew bible authorship upon which the catholic faith organisation

makes its determinations. I should correct this because the

catholic church originally allowed their priests to marry prior to

St Augustine. After he became personally aware of the power of the

urge to mate he successfully persuaded the church to outlaw

marriage of priests and those that were already married were

instructed to anull their marriages or leave the church. I've

never been convinced that God had much say in this decison. I

suspect it had something to do with the large number of

illegitimate children that the good Saint had already procreated

that convinced him that something drastic in the way of continence

had to be ordered both for him and for the whole of the ordained

catholic clergy from that date in history.

I'm not doubting that some people have gotten messed up through

casual sex but that's more to do with an absence of coherent

teaching about relationships than abstinence and I can't agree

that no one has ever died from lack of sex. My studies in

criminology suggest just the contrary position but that might be a

topic for another debate sometime.

I'm sorry it has taken me some time to find your reply and to make

a response. The Catholic church at the grass roots is listening

and acting thank God and I am sure it is listening because of the

epidemic and the science that now tells us that it is possible to

be HIV+ and not to get AIDS and not to die and that is a very

potent message that I have been privileged to tell many young

people in schools in the State of Kerala in India with a number of

invitations to return on my next visit.

Geoffrey

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 Watt, A wrote :

>What really puzzles me is how anyone could think that the

>Catholic Church or anyone else (and I repeat I am neither a

>Catholic nor a Christian) could be convinced by anyone shouting

>abuse at them.  The Church has a coherent position and no one has

>come up with an argument against it - let me put my question

>again: A & F is 100% efficient if followed; condoms are much less

>efficient for two reasons: physical failure and social failure

>(women get 'persuaded' out of using them ('persuaded' being an

>umbrella term for anything from physical violence down to

>blandishments).  'Just say no' requires both men and women to

>exercise self-control - it shares the burden. Now if A & F fails

>the /Heaviside test because people can't be continent and

>therefore, by their reasoning, A & F should be jettisoned, why

>doesn't the same reasoning attach to the condom policy and lead

>us to reject condoms?

>No-one ever died of lack of sex - too many people get messed up

>through casual sex +/- HIV

>bob

>R.A.Watt

>Senior lecturer in Laws

>Tutor for admissions

>Department of Law

>University of Essex

>watt@...

> Re: Message from the Catholic Chruch's

>>Bishops

>>At 10:14 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>>>THE CHURCH IN AFRICA IN FACE OF <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns

>>>=

>>> " urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office " />

>>>

>>>THE HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC:

>>>

>>>Our prayer is always full of hope

>>Sadly, their prayers are also sticking their heads deeply into

>>the sand.

>>While much of the report says some nice things about, golly,

>>maybe

>>caring

>>for the sick instead of demonizing them (isn't that a nice

>>thing), it's

>>pretty much not worth the electrons that dance around to

>>display

>>it on

>>your

>>screen. Mostly generalized feel-good crap with virtually

>>nothing

>>of

>>substance. Maybe the next announcement will be how the world

>>IS

>>flat and

>>the sun DOES revolve around it.

>>Not ONCE in this document is the word " condom " mentioned.

>>Pretty

>>damn

>>sad

>>and stupid. And seems to pretty much to negate the good

>>intentions.

>>But, I am hopeful that the activity of the local groups will

>>assure a

>>more

>>caring approach that ignores the nonsense of this Pope and

>>continues to

>>fight the good fight to stem the tide of HIV/AIDS.

>> M.

>>

>http://www./group/

>>

>http://www./group/aids-africa

>>(a group made up of

>>Africans worldwide)

>>Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that

>>discusses IT

>>in Africa at

>>

>http://www./group/digafrica

>>