Re: Re: Majority of new Benue varsity students test HIV positive

[Guest guest]

This is the same Country that I have been arguing with Bishops or

their representatives that the Abstaining Policy argued long and

hard in the international forums has been a tragic failure

throughout the nations.

The gay kids that make contact with me from Nigeria are saying

that information and protection is very difficult to get.

Exiting students are saying that there is only one job for

hundreds of successful exit students. Job interviews require good

presentation skills and dress code that costs nearly 10,000 naira

to buy and without them they don't even get an interview.

So after studying hard what else is there to do that offers

comfort.

I knew it was bad and the obvious compulsion to test which is

hardly informed consent has now injected a very unwelcome piece of

evidence that here again in the most western of the East African

states a shock will be awaiting all these kids and their

parents.

I will now be interested in figures from those that monitor

student suicide ideation.

This is the city that will host the 14th ICASA in 2005.

I reckon that the Youth Forum will have some very angry kids

attending.

Geoffrey

Geoffrey

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 mwendemwinzi@... wrote :

>This article was forwarded to me and it has shocked me enough to

>pass it

>along to you! Isn't this number awful?!

>

>Mwende Edozie

>www.twanatwitu.com

>

>Majority of new Benue varsity students test HIV positive

>

>By Tom Chiahemen

>

>Senior Correspondent, Abuja

>

>

>Participants at a talk shop were thrown into a state of shock

>when it was

>announced that about 75 per cent of the total intake of direct

>entry

>students of Benue State University, Markudi, tested HIV positive

>during a

>pre-registration medical test. The startling news came last week

>during a

>brainstorming session organised by the Department for

>International

>Development (DFID) in Abuja.

>

>According to DFID's Pycrott, who made the disclosure,

>studies also

>showed that since 1986, there has been almost 850,000 AIDS

>related deaths,

>with over 3.5 million Nigerians living with the HIV virus.

>

>Speaking on the topic Drivers of Change in Nigeria, Pycrott noted

>that adult

>HIV prevalence rate had increased from 1.8 per cent in 1991 to

>5.8 per cent

>in 2001. He added that current projections suggested that under

>low and high

>scenarios, the HIV/AIDS epidemic would peak at about seven per

>cent

>prevalence in 2007 (low) or 9.5 per cent prevalence in 2012

>(high) and then

>decline.

>

>Daily Independent could not obtain the official figure of the

>total number

>of students enrolled for the current session, but the Deputy

>Vice-Chancellor

>of the university, Prof. Yakubu Ochef, who was in attendance at

>the DFID

>interactive forum, did not dispute the claims of Pycrott. He

>indeed

>confirmed that the university's clinic had carried out medical

>tests " on

>every student admitted " before registration.

>

>According to him, it was possible that the results showed that

>the new

>students tested HIV positive but that such results might not have

>been

>disclosed to the affected students.

>

>The Vice-Chancellor of the university, Prof. Ker, could not

>be reached

>on telephone for comments on the development, just as officials

>of the

>university clinic would not discuss the m

Geoff Heaviside

Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

A Social Justice & Welfare Service Agency

P.O. Box 606

SUNSHINE 3020 Australia

Ph: +61 3 9449 1856 - Local (03) 9449 1856

Cell +61418328278 - Local 0418 328 278

INDIA

Geoff Heaviside

T.Nagar 600017

Chennai India

Cell 9840 097 178

" Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for

lunch.

Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesti

[Guest guest]

Dearest Simon!!

At 02:20 AM 11/23/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>snip

Well, I think it is a bit specious to say that Abstinence is a cause or not

of all these myriad problems...clearly, it is not. What IS a problem is the

idea that abstinence is all one needs to convey. Short-sighted...but

certainly it IS an excellent option.

HOWEVER...this stuff you write below....

>Crime, despair, hoplessness, drugs, commercial sex

>work(of all kinds and manner),HIV/AIDS. Are these

>caused by the Abstinence Policy? I beg to differ and

>would like to bring to your attention that in Kenya

>for example, among many other conditionalities that

>were put forward this week pegged to the country

>receiving IMF/WB donor support is:

>1.No salary increments for the public sector

>2.Laying off of 45,000 civil servants

>3.Opening up of the Kenyan market for importation of

>foreign govt. subsidized maize and sugar

>4.Privatization(foreign ownership)of public

>corporations and infrastructure

>5.Freezing of any new employment within the public

>sector

>6.Enactment of the anti-terrorism bill by

>parliament

I don't know all the issues that you write about, but I think these are

areas where we STRONGLY agree. What the United States government, among

others (Europe, WB/IMF), has done to African nations, especially through

SAPs and agricultural trade barriers, is nothing short of criminal. And

indeed, many can point to these derangements of African economies quite

legitimately as indirect roots of the spread of HIV, from increased

urbanization due to lack of jobs, to increased sex trade.

That doesn't leave local governments and their corruption off the hook--but

to the extent they are propped up and abetted by the US, again, my

country's policies bear an enormous responsibility. Some recognition of

this at least is taking place but I can think of no more single important

thing for the health, stability and the fight against AIDS on the planet

today than that my people get rid of Bush and his cabinet of

outrageous liars.

We may disagree on issues of sexuality, Simon, but here, on many of these

issues, I stand with you strongly.

M.

[Guest guest]

At 06:00 AM 11/23/2003 +0100, you wrote:

>Anyway, for more information on why HIV tests are unreliable

>in Africa, see:

>

>http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/chjtests4.htm

Ah--this is a notoriously bad site to rely on information of ANY kind. They

twist and distort information in most egregious ways and hold to the

psychotic belief that either HIV doesn't exist or doesn't cause AIDS. Nonsense.

However, you do make a good point that IF they only used an ELISA test,

then these 75% of students should be retested using Western blot. The

sensitivity and specificity of this approach pretty much clarifies whether

they have HIV--and I fear that far too many will.

By contrast, if 75% of the students have malaria, don't you think that too

would be a cause for a wee bit of concern???

M.

[Guest guest]

At 01:08 AM 11/26/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>

> >

> > The bigotry I see, though, is the oppression of

> > people who love or have sex

> > with the same gender.

> >

>, give me one single scripture from the bible

>that tolerates same gender sex and I might listen to

>you on this.FBOs are governed by the Holy scriptures

>and not what Simon, or Bush thinks.

This is the funny part. People have different interpretations of what those

scriptures mean.

Indeed, I thought for christians, the New Testament was the new covenant

that overcame the Old....and in that book, Jesus says nothing about same

sex activity.

>They cannot

>abandon this approach and start preaching some new

>doctrine based on some conference papers by .No

>it is not possible .

Yes, it is possible. The proscriptions you have cited are pretty weak to

condemn same gender sexual activity. There are HUNDREDS of guides for

heterosexual behavior, but that doesn't mean it is rejected, does it?

FBOs have widely divergent views, as do religious leaders, on what is more

important. Tolerance, generosity and kindness? Or oppressive, controlling

efforts to oppress women, gays and lesbians and other minorities?

> > Not all FBOs agree with this, clearly. Those that

> > stop there I think are

> > making a horrible mistake, whether rooting it in the

> > bible, koran or torah.

> >

>Get me right once again, we dont stop there but ask

>those who dont have the spiritual will power to

>control themselves to consult and the world for

>advice and damage control.

This is an abdication of responsibility on your part.

>They do come back to us

>,they do, when it dawns on them that there's one

>small little detail that you left out and they

>blundered-like getting hold of condoms before the bar

>and the neighborhood shops close and the lodging that

>they booked into doesnt have any.At that moment

>, all your advise, consultations, desertations,

>conference papers on condom use mean nothing-the young

>man's blood circulation is concentrated on his erect

>penis and very little goes to his brain to allow him

>recall what his good old pal taught him.Yes

>they do come back to us .

LOL...well, dear Simon, I hate to point this out, but this one rather

awkward scenario you put out here suggests that this individual went to

you, heard your spiel and it failed to take any effect. And maybe lacking

the vigor of recommending condoms in the event he finds himself in this

situation, he might think it's not so important.

> No, C stands for CONDOMS. Knowing where to get them,

> > knowing how to put

> > them on the penis correctly, using the correct lube,

> > etc.

> >

>If we taught that,you'd probably be without a job or

>career.We are considerate and merciful and have left

>that to you

No, you're not merciful at all. You're foolish and cruel and have abdicated

what I think is a more genuinely christian responsibility to care for the

people in your congregation. Not simply feel so superior and judgmental

that you can cast the first stone.

> >People have sex.

> > People LIKE having sex. People are NOT always

> > faithful. Sex workers exist.

> > If you think that after these thousands of years of

> > messages to " just say

> > no " or follow all your particular sect's rules, then

> > again, I think you are

> > simply being blind to the reality of human nature in

> > the aggregate.

> >

>No, we first of all teach them about God and

>salvation.The latter has an instant impact on behavior

>change.They quit drink,smoking, drugs,

>unfaithfulness,prostitution,homosexuality,lesbianism....

If your teachings help people to live a better life in terms of being

honorable and treating others as they would be treated, this is to be

celebrated.

But do you see what I mean about cruel? This to me as a person who is gay

is a vile form of oppression, an accusation that the way I was made and

born is intrinsically wrong. That's vicious. It's cruel and ugly and

hurtful. I'm surprised you didn't follow the usual party line of comparing

same gender love as equivalent to kleptomania or bestiality. This is the

tactic Himmler used to characterize the Jews as rats and vermin.

If you were here and someone called you a nigger, how would that feel? If

someone told you that because you are black, you are LESS than human, that

the Bible gives them reasons to consider you chattel--how would you feel?

What you do to me here and my brothers and sisters like me is the same.

Lacking grace in this clinging to your bigotry, I wonder if YOU will be

saved, Simon, in the light of your own teachings?

I hope so. I hope you will find it in your heart to overcome your hatred

and arrogance. It is hard for all of us as these emotions are powerful.

M.

[Guest guest]

Thanks who always acts as a devils advocate to issues that

raise alarms in Africa.

My concerns with this report was not how many of the students were

actually positive or how accurate were the tests.

My real concern is that the result was going to affect their place

in the University and to all intents and purposes no one was going

to be told about either the test or the result.

This creates a much bigger can or worms.

It stops students gaining an enrolment even if they are +ve

because to get a result early means with proper care they can

study and live to old age. The second reason is that they may in

fact like to get a second opinion but if they don't know about the

first opinion then they have no idea why they failed the admission

health examination. That is a human rights violation and also

needs to be condemned in the strongest terms.

Now I want you to try to get a full statement from the Vice

Chancellor that will address my concerns and yours as well.

I look forward to reading more on this piece of tertiary

investment management protocol because if any of it is true it

stinks.

Geoffrey

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 van Deelen wrote :

>Message: 5

>   Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:45:02 EST

>   From: mwendemwinzi@...

>Subject: Re: Majority of new Benue varsity students test HIV

>positive

>>

>>This article was forwarded to me and it has shocked me enough to

>>pass it

>>along to you!  Isn't this number awful?!

>>

>>Mwende Edozie

>>www.twanatwitu.com

>>

>>Majority of new Benue varsity students test HIV positive

>>

>>By Tom Chiahemen

>>

>>Senior Correspondent, Abuja

>>

>>

>>Participants at a talk shop were thrown into a state of shock

>>when it was

>>announced that about 75 per cent of the total intake of direct

>>entry

>>students of Benue State University, Markudi, tested HIV positive

>>during a

>>pre-registration medical test. The startling news came last week

>>during a

>>brainstorming session organised by the Department for

>>International

>>Development (DFID) in Abuja.

>Hi Mwende,

>These tests are probably wrong - maybe it's malaria season now

>or

>the lab screwed up or they're using a new testkit.

>Does anyone know what kind and how many tests were used?

>Because a single ELISA (p24) test will show false positives if

>someone has recently been exposed to malaria.

>If the lab screwed up, the test may be reacting to the testkit

>itself.

>Anyway, for more information on why HIV tests are unreliable

>in Africa, see:

>http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/chjtests4.htm

>For anyone reading German, here is a list of factors that give

>false positives when using an unconfirmed ELISA test from the

> Ehrlich institute for tropical medicine in Munich:

>http://www.pei.de/themen/hivdiasa.htm#stoer

>

>

[Guest guest]

Message: 2

Date: 26 Dec 2003 12:16:06 -0000

From: " Geoff Heaviside " <gheaviside@...>

Subject: Re: Re: Majority of new Benue varsity students test HIV positive

> Thanks who always acts as a devils advocate to issues that

> raise alarms in Africa.

Hi Geoff,

Well yes and no. I'm not being difficult for the sake of it,

but there are serious questions about HIV, what the tests

mean, how they are conducted and how reliable they are in Africa.

1) It does not make sense for a lot of straight students to all

of a sudden become infected with one of the toughest to catch

stds in the world.

2) There are serious issues with the tests themselves. Namely,

unlike popular misconception, ELISA does not test for HIV,

or even antibodies against HIV. It tests of ONE of the antigens

that are supposed to be present in HIV and it's antibodies, namely P24.

Western Blot tests for 9 of the proteins that are part of GAG,

POL and ENV.

The problem with only testing for P24, is that it apparently is

similar enough to other proteins, that exposure to malaria,

leprosy, tuberculosis etc. will make a test for it go false positive.

Did you know that in the West, the huge majority of positive

ELISAs, when followed up by a Western Blot, turn out to be

false-positive?

Which is why it is so important to follow up these ELISA tests

(usually referred to as screening tests) with confirmation tests

like Western Blot. Western Blot will take care of most false

positives due to malaria, etc.

It is specifically these follow up tests which are not performed

during surveys in Africa, either because it is policy, or outright

because of costs.

So without knowing which tests were used, and what the

procedures were, just stating that the majority of students

at some institution were " positive " , doesn't mean very much.

> My concerns with this report was not how many of the students were

> actually positive or how accurate were the tests.

> My real concern is that the result was going to affect their place

> in the University and to all intents and purposes no one was going

> to be told about either the test or the result.

> This creates a much bigger can or worms.

Why presume that any of these youngsters are positive

for anything at all? And it's a blessing that they won't

be told their individual results, because those results

are pretty meaningless anyway.

And Geoff, you still haven't copped that the pyramidal

demographic shape is characteristic of all developing

countries, and it not a result of deaths from AIDS

(sorry to go on about this).

(Ps, if anyone needs some sources for what I'm saying,

I'm happy to supply them.)

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your contributions.

I agree that HIV is a difficult disease to transmit apart from

unprotected penetration of a vagina or an anus in which case it is

easy to transmit whether you are straight or gay. For that reason

I am not doubting the high prevalence of actual HIV infection in

Africa.

What is the Vice Chancellor saying about the reason for the

testing in the first place or is testing just a game in Africa?

I am a strong believer in anyone who has had a risk exposure to

have a proper test as early after risk behaviour as possible if

they want to prolong their life so any systematic proper testing

of young people would be welcome provided their status is

protected information for them to own and disclose. I don't agree

that universities or schools should be allowed to obtain this

information and use it in any way at all.

I am happy to agree that developing countries have a pyramidal

population characteristic because children represent social

security so one would expect to see many more of them than the

breeders or the aged. I am yet to be convinced that there is not a

big gap in the population that would be identified as mothers and

fathers and aunties and uncles. I am personally aware of large

numbers of orphan headed households where the oldest sibling is in

their 20's and the youngest uninfected sibling is above 10. Most

of the siblings below 10 were born infected and have or are

dying.

I guess if there are proper death statistics we might be able to

prove it and in AIDS related deaths I would include all those

whose lives could have been saved with proper opportunistic

infection management but who passed away because of a damaged

immune system. If there is a scandal associated with inflated HIV

statistics it would be useful to be able to prove it. So far with

the increasing numbers of aids orphans and the projections for

those numbers to increase further it would seem that one or both

parents are either dead or too sick to function as parents.

I wish I could be as certain as you are that uncorroborated elisa

tests are meaningless. If I got a positive elisa test I would want

to do the follow up tests rather than just presume the result was

probably meaningless. In this instance we were not told what tests

were conducted and why and I think this report needs following up

with the University.

Geoffrey

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 van Deelen wrote :

>Message: 2

>   Date: 26 Dec 2003 12:16:06 -0000

>   From: " Geoff  Heaviside " <gheaviside@...>

>Subject: Re: Re: Majority of new Benue varsity students test HIV

>positive

>>Thanks who always acts as a devils advocate to issues

>>that

>>raise alarms in Africa.

>Hi Geoff,

>Well yes and no. I'm not being difficult for the sake of it,

>but there are serious questions about HIV, what the tests

>mean, how they are conducted and how reliable they are in

>Africa.

>1) It does not make sense for a lot of straight students to all

>of a sudden become infected with one of the toughest to catch

>stds in the world.

>2) There are serious issues with the tests themselves. Namely,

>unlike popular misconception, ELISA does not test for HIV,

>or even antibodies against HIV. It tests of ONE of the antigens

>that are supposed to be present in HIV and it's antibodies,

>namely P24.

>Western Blot tests for 9 of the proteins that are part of GAG,

>POL and ENV.

>The problem with only testing for P24, is that it apparently is

>similar enough to other proteins, that exposure to malaria,

>leprosy, tuberculosis etc. will make a test for it go false

>positive.

>Did you know that in the West, the huge majority of positive

>ELISAs, when followed up by a Western Blot, turn out to be

>false-positive?

>Which is why it is so important to follow up these ELISA tests

>(usually referred to as screening tests) with confirmation

>tests

>like Western Blot. Western Blot will take care of most false

>positives due to malaria, etc.

>It is specifically these follow up tests which are not

>performed

>during surveys in Africa, either because it is policy, or

>outright

>because of costs.

>So without knowing which tests were used, and what the

>procedures were, just stating that the majority of students

>at some institution were " positive " , doesn't mean very much.

>>My concerns with this report was not how many of the students

>>were

>>actually positive or how accurate were the tests.

>>My real concern is that the result was going to affect their

>>place

>>in the University and to all intents and purposes no one was

>>going

>>to be told about either the test or the result.

>>This creates a much bigger can or worms.

>Why presume that any of these youngsters are positive

>for anything at all? And it's a blessing that they won't

>be told their individual results, because those results

>are pretty meaningless anyway.

>And Geoff, you still haven't copped that the pyramidal

>demographic shape is characteristic of all developing

>countries, and it not a result of deaths from AIDS

>(sorry to go on about this).

>

>(Ps, if anyone needs some sources for what I'm saying,

>I'm happy to supply them.)

>http://www./group/

>http://www./group/aids-africa

>(a group made up of Africans worldwide)

>Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that

>discusses IT in Africa at

>http://www./group/digafrica

>

[Guest guest]

Geoff

If you are looking for demographic statistical programs that will help you in determining AIDS predictors and stats for a country

Try

http://www.futuresgroup.com/index.cfm

then go software button and download programs

These programs come from the Accuracy Society of South Africa

They are very good and user friendly

Hoyt

Re: Re: Re: Majority of new Benue varsity students test HIV positive

Thanks for your contributions.I agree that HIV is a difficult disease to transmit apart from unprotected penetration of a vagina or an anus in which case it is easy to transmit whether you are straight or gay. For that reason I am not doubting the high prevalence of actual HIV infection in Africa.What is the Vice Chancellor saying about the reason for the testing in the first place or is testing just a game in Africa?