RE: homosexuality -do not close debate.

[Guest guest]

ine,

The fight against HIV/Aids is about acceptance. Acceptance of human

nature.... acceptance of the fact that doctors/ nurses use

unsterilized needles, that possible contaminated blood

is used, that human sexuality is diverse and doesn't listen to

rules, whether it be from religion or culture and that a lot of

people are having their own agenda hiding behind " acting in the name

of the client " . Condemnation and judgement is a dead end road.. it

kills debate and it kills people.. either in a fysical or

psychological way... The number one rule in counseling and helping

people is: you accept the world view of the person in front of you..

that is your basic working material. If you can't accept it... stay

out.. start doing something else.. for instance... start repairing

cars, make a website, build a house... whatever... but stay away

from " helping " people.

A priest, a church, a human being telling us that HIV/AIDS is Gods

own punishment (for any sins.. be it promiscuity, homosexuality or bi-

sexuality) is no help at all... in contrary... it harms... it is no

solution.. in contrary.. it is part of the problem....

Caroline

> > Dear Friends,

> > I have returned (somewhat) after several weeks of computer

> failures, to find

> > some failure--in my estimation--of true communication regarding

> tolerance,

> > justice, and acceptance. Could it be said that no less a revered

> personage

> > than Mandela, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, or Luther

King

> Jr. has

> > been misguided--perhaps in need of therapy even--because all have

> taken a

> > stance of support for equality and toleration regardless of sexual

> > orientation? The South African constitution bans discrimination

> based on

> > sexual orientation, just as it does with gender, race, and

> religion, and

> > both Mandela and Archbishop Tutu were influencial in this

> decision. I

> > have read the words of both men in this regard, and they are

clear

> in their

> > support for people with an LGBT orientation, just as they are

> supportive of

> > women, people of all colors and races, people of all religious

> persuasions.

> > Dr. King's mentor, and the person who he credited with

introducing

> him to

> > the nonviolence principles of Mahatma Gandhi, was a gay man

(Bayard

> Rustin).

> > This was well-known to Dr. King, though of course not to the

world

> at large

> > during the 1950's and 1960's, a time of great " liberation " for

some

> groups

> > and in some ways, but not in terms of homophobia (and sadly not

as

> much in

> > terms of racial equality and tolerance for which we in the civil-

> rights

> > movement have hoped and prayed).

> >

> > I find it both frustrating and very sad that there is so much

> divisiveness

> > on this issue, especially at a time when millions are dying due

to

> HIV/AIDS

> > and other health problems, poverty, and malnutrition, including

> thousands of

> > Africans, children, and destitute people who die every day from

> disease and

> > neglect. Why does this neglect occur? Why are there not enough

> medicines for

> > Africans, why is so little done about the poverty and

malnutrition

> which

> > daily faces billions? I would say that the answer to that is the

> same: lack

> > of love and a sense of mutual connection, lack of fellowship and

> > identifcation with others in our basic humanity, lack of treating

> others as

> > one would want oneself treated (a Christian principle). If it is

> true that

> > sexual orientation is at least partly biological in origin, it is

as

> > unlikely (let alone cruel to suggest) that therapy will rid

someone

> of this

> > orientation as much as it would be for color, let's say. There

are

> some

> > people, heinous as this might be to us in this forum, who believe

> that

> > Africans--and all Black people or people of color--are inferior.

> There are

> > many worldwide--and a number in Africa, one reason why women are

> becoming so

> > HIV/AIDS-affected and infected--who believe that women are

> inferior. There

> > is so much intolerance, violence, and hatred based on the color

of

> one's

> > skin, one's sexual orientation, one's economic status, one's

> nationality or

> > religion. Is that really what we want to promote? If so, why

> bother to

> > discuss and counter stigma and discrimination against Africans,

> people of

> > color, women, people with HIV/AIDS with such vigor, only to

engage

> in that

> > same behavior when it comes to sexual orientation?

> >

> > I am sorry if this sounds intolerant in itself, and I do

understand

> the

> > fears and other challenges which make it hard for people to be

> accepting and

> > tolerant of one another. But this is what we need now more than

> ever if we

> > are to defeat one or more of the most insidious " enemies " of

> humanity as a

> > whole: HIV/AIDS and poverty, let alone the apathy or downright

> selfishness

> > which allows some to say that they are not their brother's and

> sister's

> > keeper. Thank you for listening, and I have great faith in the

> content of

> > character of all who reside here. With all best wishes and

> blessings, Janet

[Guest guest]

Hello Dear Friends, and thanks for the postings from ine and Caroline. I am not sure how much we want to wade into this topic as it can be divisive and very upsetting, but ine is also right to point out that sexuality is at the heart of what we try to address with HIV/AIDS, though I would say that it isn't so much a matter of sexuality in general, but a responsible approach to it, perhaps a "human-rights" approach emphasizing mutuality and consent (that's a tricky one too, because often women are forced into prostitution to survive, and to help their families survive, so would not "choose" to do this type of work if there were a true choice...which there isn't, and that's an issue in and of itself), responsibility and self-integrity. I do get what you are saying about the character issue, ine--that some people would see an LGBT orientation as a character "flaw"--but I was thinking of character in the way Luther King Dr. might, which focuses on what kind of person you are (honest, kind, caring) and how you treat others. The biology issue or question is a thorny one, but there are studies and some evidence which seems to support a biological basis for certain aspects of sexuality, though I believe that a majority who address these issues would also say that "environment" (nature and nurture, shall we say) is an important determinant of how people express or repress their sexual orientation, or generally go about being sexual, let alone living their lives in general.

The other day, I was reading about the heavy stigma still attending HIV/AIDS in a rural setting in Nigeria--where people begged the person visiting not to mention the word "HIV/AIDS" in terms of dying relatives--and remembering well the kind of stigma and fear so many of LGBT orientation experienced in the 1950's, '60's, 70's, and even '80's in the US, let alone so many other places in the world even today, where violence, death, and ostracism can result from people knowing you are LGBT ("lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered"). I would venture to say that you have probably known someone of LGBT orientation in Kisumu without "knowing" it, ine, and I have no doubt that in every culture and time period and locality there have been people of LGBT orientation, though many have chosen to remain silent and even live "a lie" or sneak about in secret because they knew that to reveal themselves would bring severe punishment by the community or the society at large. Especially in very close-knit communities and in cultures where family is so important (which it is in some way to most of us, however we define that), this ostracism would be akin to an exile or even death in a figurative sense, and many perhaps could not bear that, so they chose the more "acceptable" social and interpersonal relationships (ie heterosexual). In this same way, women have also remained silent in the face of brutality and second-class citizenship, though this thankfully is also changing.

I do not believe that rape--which is about power or powerlessness and not about sex--can be discussed in the same terms as sexual orientation, and I think that some of the examples you mention have much more to do with nurture (environment) than nature. Regardless of that issue or debate, though, what I have referred to as "character" applies here in the sense of according others the same dignity and bodily and general integrity as one would wish for oneself, being respectful and engaging in relationships that are mutually consensual, approaching relationships not as a power game but as a cooperative interaction. I realize that sounds hopelessly idealistic, and also that there do seem to be powerful urges on the part of some to dominate or take by force (hmm, our world is replete with that in terms of politics and nations too!), for instance. Since this seems to be something men do more than women--and is that nature or nurture, or both, or neither--could it be said that men are defective somehow? I don't think so--even though some men (and women, for that matter) should avail themselves of therapy if they have violent tendencies (because they then often hurt others, which is where my argument about character leads) and there are so many men--in this forum for starters!--who embody all of the qualities which make for the "character" I am referring to (as does the bishop in question, in my view). I do think, in other words, that there are some guidelines or benchmarks for trying to figure out what is a healthy approach to sexuality and what is not (without necessarily engaging in the same kind of condemnation which comes from some quarters...though I do understand that this is making a judgment of a kind, and this is why these discussions are so thorny!). But I think most people here would agree that adult men having sex with young "virgins" (of either gender, though mostly we hear this in reference to young women) thinking that they won't contract HIV/AIDS--or worse, be "cured" of HIV/AIDS, only to pass that along to these young people and not be cured themselves--is not the healthiest way to approach either sexuality or HIV/AIDS prevention or amelioration...hence a possible guideline for behavior which can be discouraged or encouraged to go in a different direction (which is where counselling comes in).

I could say so much more, but thanks for the chance to say what I have here, and will be interested to read what others have to say. With many thanks and all best wishes, and to "agreeing to disagree" with harmony, Janet Re: homosexuality -do not close debate. ine,The fight against HIV/Aids is about acceptance. Acceptance of human nature.... acceptance of the fact that doctors/ nurses use unsterilized needles, that possible contaminated bloodis used, that human sexuality is diverse and doesn't listen to rules, whether it be from religion or culture and that a lot of people are having their own agenda hiding behind "acting in the name of the client". Condemnation and judgement is a dead end road.. it kills debate and it kills people.. either in a fysical or psychological way... The number one rule in counseling and helping people is: you accept the world view of the person in front of you.. that is your basic working material. If you can't accept it... stay out.. start doing something else.. for instance... start repairing cars, make a website, build a house... whatever... but stay away from "helping" people. A priest, a church, a human being telling us that HIV/AIDS is Gods own punishment (for any sins.. be it promiscuity, homosexuality or bi-sexuality) is no help at all... in contrary... it harms... it is no solution.. in contrary.. it is part of the problem.... Caroline> > Dear Friends,> > I have returned (somewhat) after several weeks of computer > failures, to find> > some failure--in my estimation--of true communication regarding > tolerance,> > justice, and acceptance. Could it be said that no less a revered > personage> > than Mandela, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, or Luther King > Jr. has> > been misguided--perhaps in need of therapy even--because all have > taken a> > stance of support for equality and toleration regardless of sexual> > orientation? The South African constitution bans discrimination > based on> > sexual orientation, just as it does with gender, race, and > religion, and> > both Mandela and Archbishop Tutu were influencial in this > decision. I> > have read the words of both men in this regard, and they are clear > in their> > support for people with an LGBT orientation, just as they are > supportive of> > women, people of all colors and races, people of all religious > persuasions.> > Dr. King's mentor, and the person who he credited with introducing > him to> > the nonviolence principles of Mahatma Gandhi, was a gay man (Bayard > Rustin).> > This was well-known to Dr. King, though of course not to the world > at large> > during the 1950's and 1960's, a time of great "liberation" for some > groups> > and in some ways, but not in terms of homophobia (and sadly not as > much in> > terms of racial equality and tolerance for which we in the civil-> rights> > movement have hoped and prayed).> > > > I find it both frustrating and very sad that there is so much > divisiveness> > on this issue, especially at a time when millions are dying due to > HIV/AIDS> > and other health problems, poverty, and malnutrition, including > thousands of> > Africans, children, and destitute people who die every day from > disease and> > neglect. Why does this neglect occur? Why are there not enough > medicines for> > Africans, why is so little done about the poverty and malnutrition > which> > daily faces billions? I would say that the answer to that is the > same: lack> > of love and a sense of mutual connection, lack of fellowship and> > identifcation with others in our basic humanity, lack of treating > others as> > one would want oneself treated (a Christian principle). If it is > true that> > sexual orientation is at least partly biological in origin, it is as> > unlikely (let alone cruel to suggest) that therapy will rid someone > of this> > orientation as much as it would be for color, let's say. There are > some> > people, heinous as this might be to us in this forum, who believe > that> > Africans--and all Black people or people of color--are inferior. > There are> > many worldwide--and a number in Africa, one reason why women are > becoming so> > HIV/AIDS-affected and infected--who believe that women are > inferior. There> > is so much intolerance, violence, and hatred based on the color of > one's> > skin, one's sexual orientation, one's economic status, one's > nationality or> > religion. Is that really what we want to promote? If so, why > bother to> > discuss and counter stigma and discrimination against Africans, > people of> > color, women, people with HIV/AIDS with such vigor, only to engage > in that> > same behavior when it comes to sexual orientation?> > > > I am sorry if this sounds intolerant in itself, and I do understand > the> > fears and other challenges which make it hard for people to be > accepting and> > tolerant of one another. But this is what we need now more than > ever if we> > are to defeat one or more of the most insidious "enemies" of > humanity as a> > whole: HIV/AIDS and poverty, let alone the apathy or downright > selfishness> > which allows some to say that they are not their brother's and > sister's> > keeper. Thank you for listening, and I have great faith in the > content of> > character of all who reside here. With all best wishes and > blessings, Janet

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

For information about homosexuality in Africa please go to:

www.mask.org.za/

which is an excellent site.

The misinformation that homosexuality did not exist in Africa before the

white men (and women) came seem to be a fruit of effective

colonial/missionary work. Indeed did they manage to uprooted something

in Africa and make Africans believe it never was there. Many apparently

still believe in this misinformation. President Mugabe is one.

The problem with this is that there is between no and little relevant,

tailored, HIV/AIDS information on the continent (Morocco is one good

exception) targeting males (to include the younger ones) who either

exclusively or occasionally have sex with other males. This leads to

even more infections.

What to do about it is not hard to guess but I presume very hard to

actually do, as long as the misinformation prevails.

ine's posting was in many aspects interesting and revealing and I

will abstain to go into details as I think HIV should be focus in this

particular debate, but for one comment. What ever two consenting adults

do to each others sexually is fine with me; what is not fine with me is

sexual violence against women, girls, boys and men.

Have a good day

Calle

[Guest guest]

Dear ine, Carol and others

You should not apologise for posting the article in question, a debate on homosexuality in our Kenyan community is due and like you I believe that sexuality in all forms is at the core of the HIV debate.

What surprised me or shocked me were some of the comments and letters. Like; homosexuality is a disease and should be treated as such.

On the other hand why should I be surprised, don't we still have an archaic Law in Kenya which states that Homosexuality is a criminal act. (Correct me someone if I am wrong).

A law inherited from the British but which is no longer valid in the UK, but which we still hold on to.

For centuries Homosexuals were persecuted and thrown in jails and ostracised in the west. ( Wilde is just one example in many)

Was it justified, is it justified to persecute and ostracise adults who have a different sexual orientation, or just because they don't conform to the expected norms of a society and are courageuos enough to show it.

The elimination against the laws against Homosexualtiy in Europe were not the result of a degradation in the West but as a result of an acceptance of the human rights of homosexuals ( and by homosexuals I refer to both men and women) and it was not an easy battle.

We in Kenya still retain this law without questioning it.

I am not saying we ape the West without question, but again do we want to persecute and ostracise part of our population like the West did?

It is true what ine says we have ethnic groups where no word exists to describe homosexuality, but does that mean that Homosexuality didn't exist? I don't know but I suspect it did exist and still does but was so tabuisiert that it found no outlet.

In my understanding, being homosexual doesn't just mean to practise homosexuality but also to be attracted to persons of the same sex and to fill something is missing in a realtionship with the opposite sex, a lot of homosexuals don't practise they are just unhappy and depressed and confused with the pretend life they have to live as heteros.

And it is here that the basis for psychic problems lies.

Not in the homosexuality but in the hiding, in the pretence in the persecution, rejection and in the labelling with abnormality.

It is for the problems that the society causes that the homosexuals need treatment.

I think before we label Homosexuals as criminals or degraded sinners and all the other adjectives we use we should reflect on our attitudes and ask ourselves why do we feel threatened by homosexuals, what harm are they likely to render to us or our communities.

I have reflected on these questions and it has ocurred to me, that homosexualtiy might have been considered to be a threat to the survival of a society in a very distant past when reproductive sex meant the very survival of the group.

For our current society however the problem is not how to increase our numbers but how to reduce our numbers.

Homosexuality is as such not a threat to anyone, and if we condemn it on the basis of that it is not productive as many do, we have to condemn all other forms of sexuality which are not reproductive, that includes the use of contraceptives and even safe sex.

On the other hand we cannot lump homosexuality, with other forms of sexulity which are based on violence, aggression and exploitation, and here I am talking about those forms that ine refers as having been taught by her biology teacher.

Rape in all forms, sexual child abuse, Incest and here specifically child/ adult. Here we are not dealing with consented sex among equals but sex with a perpetrator and a victim, here we are refering to extreme harm to one of the parties and here there is no call for tolerance or acceptance.

Even the practice of incest between a parent and the children in their adult ages falls under the same category, because the daughter of say twenty five is reduced to the age of five in this act, she is still under the power of the father.

And really we know there are biological reasons why incest is a threat to any society.

These are the acts of aggression which we should not tolerate or accept but make an active stand against, and here I want to add: The forced inheritance of wives and the sexual cleansing rituals, and rape within marriage. ( By forced here I don't just consider physical force but also emotional pressure and threats which force women to the take part in these rituals).

I see no cause for tolerance or acceptance here the same way I don't see any reason to tolerate or accept health personnel who use unsterile instruments, or contaminated blood. ( Carol I don't know whether I understood you on this point.)

The practice of homosexuality on the other hand when it doesn't take the form of rape or incest, or child abuse, is an agreement between two adults and should not be tolerated as such but accepted unconditionally as an individual choice without trying to look for excuses in hormonal or biological differences as such. It does not harm or threaten any one in this time and age.

I look forward to the day when homosexuals and heterosexuals in our country will stand up and challenge the law against homosexuality and demand its invalidation.

Muthoni

On 4 Nov 2003 at 6:10, paulinemwinzi wrote:

> Friends,

> I'd like to apologize for an article that I posted here, which had

> appreared in one of our Kenyan dailies, regarding homosexuality. I'd

> like to distance myself from the views expressed in the article, they

> were not my own, and that the article was forwarded solely for the

> purpose of provoking debate. I have realized it is a sensitive issue,

> but also appreciated the debate that I have seen. I'd have expected

> that the article should not have elicited the kind of reactions

> especially what I have seen from Calle, for if those of us working in

> HIV/AIDS field, and advocating for tolerance, minimizing stigma -then

> we sure know that these are some of the attitudes out there that we

> work with daily, to change people's attitudes towards persons

> percieved to be different -and how do we change others' views and

> attitudes if we run away from their perceptions, instead of

> diplomatically reasoning with them?

>

> Sexuality is at the core of the HIV/AIDS problem -and therefore I'd

> think that the fowarded article was not out of place. Homosexuality

> is unheard of in certain cultures and persons of certain backgrounds

> here in Africa. Nothing new is accepted easily especially if it is

> not easily understood.

>

> I have been pleased to note that we have homosexuals in this forum

> and perhaps my precious opportunity to finally understand

> this " sexual orientation " (how so good we are at coining convenient

> vocabulary). Even though practicing a particular religion, I am open

> to all kinds of reasoning from whatever religions and borrow whatever

> good I can borrow from any culture. I'm intrigued by Janet's posting

> and the reasoning that it's all in one's character no matter the

> sexual orientation (I think that, THAT orientation is in the core of

> a persons character) -those that have studied this some more -I'd

> love to learn some more -so how many sexual orientations are there?

> homosexuality, heterosexuality, incest, bisexuality...? I remember in

> my high school biology class something about all sorts of " sexual

> orientations " -that is not what the teacher called them at the time

> though - out of ignorance perhaps, she called them " sexual

> abornomalities " . Describing " homo sapiens " as an heterosexual

> species -she went on to identify " abnormalities " that fell out of

> this " norm " . I have not looked it up in modern science to confirm

> whatever new findinds there are but the lecture went thus: -some rare

> people (men especially, as this she associated to an " abonormality "

> in the Y chromosome) can only enjoy sex if they only get it by force -

> so the only time they can get a high is when they rape. Others only

> enjoy sex with dead bodies...so they have to kill first and then make

> love to the corpse (there were names attachend to

> these " conditions " ). And then others just love it within the family

> (incest) - and the list went on. I guess next we're going to say if

> brother is in love with sister, or brother is in love with brother,

> or father in love with son, they are two mutually consenting adults

> whose rights ought to be respected -What about those who have a

> biological inclination to have sex with babies? do we tolerate this

> sexual persuation too? What about sex with animals? Where do we draw

> the line?

>

> Over to someone.

>

> ine Mwinzi

> Senior Scientist

> CDC-Kenya.

>

>

>

>

> > Dear Friends,

> > I have returned (somewhat) after several weeks of computer

> failures, to find

> > some failure--in my estimation--of true communication regarding

> tolerance,

> > justice, and acceptance. Could it be said that no less a revered

> personage

> > than Mandela, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, or Luther King

> Jr. has

> > been misguided--perhaps in need of therapy even--because all have

> taken a

> > stance of support for equality and toleration regardless of sexual

> > orientation? The South African constitution bans discrimination

> based on

> > sexual orientation, just as it does with gender, race, and

> religion, and

> > both Mandela and Archbishop Tutu were influencial in this

> decision. I

> > have read the words of both men in this regard, and they are clear

> in their

> > support for people with an LGBT orientation, just as they are

> supportive of

> > women, people of all colors and races, people of all religious

> persuasions.

> > Dr. King's mentor, and the person who he credited with introducing

> him to

> > the nonviolence principles of Mahatma Gandhi, was a gay man (Bayard

> Rustin).

> > This was well-known to Dr. King, though of course not to the world

> at large

> > during the 1950's and 1960's, a time of great " liberation " for some

> groups

> > and in some ways, but not in terms of homophobia (and sadly not as

> much in

> > terms of racial equality and tolerance for which we in the civil-

> rights

> > movement have hoped and prayed).

> >

> > I find it both frustrating and very sad that there is so much

> divisiveness

> > on this issue, especially at a time when millions are dying due to

> HIV/AIDS

> > and other health problems, poverty, and malnutrition, including

> thousands of

> > Africans, children, and destitute people who die every day from

> disease and

> > neglect. Why does this neglect occur? Why are there not enough

> medicines for

> > Africans, why is so little done about the poverty and malnutrition

> which

> > daily faces billions? I would say that the answer to that is the

> same: lack

> > of love and a sense of mutual connection, lack of fellowship and

> > identifcation with others in our basic humanity, lack of treating

> others as

> > one would want oneself treated (a Christian principle). If it is

> true that

> > sexual orientation is at least partly biological in origin, it is as

> > unlikely (let alone cruel to suggest) that therapy will rid someone

> of this

> > orientation as much as it would be for color, let's say. There are

> some

> > people, heinous as this might be to us in this forum, who believe

> that

> > Africans--and all Black people or people of color--are inferior.

> There are

> > many worldwide--and a number in Africa, one reason why women are

> becoming so

> > HIV/AIDS-affected and infected--who believe that women are

> inferior. There

> > is so much intolerance, violence, and hatred based on the color of

> one's

> > skin, one's sexual orientation, one's economic status, one's

> nationality or

> > religion. Is that really what we want to promote? If so, why

> bother to

> > discuss and counter stigma and discrimination against Africans,

> people of

> > color, women, people with HIV/AIDS with such vigor, only to engage

> in that

> > same behavior when it comes to sexual orientation?

> >

> > I am sorry if this sounds intolerant in itself, and I do understand

> the

> > fears and other challenges which make it hard for people to be

> accepting and

> > tolerant of one another. But this is what we need now more than

> ever if we

> > are to defeat one or more of the most insidious " enemies " of

> humanity as a

> > whole: HIV/AIDS and poverty, let alone the apathy or downright

> selfishness

> > which allows some to say that they are not their brother's and

> sister's

> > keeper. Thank you for listening, and I have great faith in the

> content of

> > character of all who reside here. With all best wishes and

> blessings, Janet

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Simon, dear all,

As I was one to react, here are my comments to your lengthy posting:

1. I wanted to separate the debate on homosexuality from discussions

about HIV/AIDS, as I have pointed out in an earlier posting. This is a

forum about HIV/AIDS - unless I have misunderstood it all. This is the

reason I participate.

2. My reaction was not against the labelling of homosexuality as a

disease (which it is not according to the WHO) but to something else.

3. We live in a globalised world, Kenya and Kenyans are not isolated

from the rest of the world

4. Only by collaborating can we make a difference in relation to

HIV/AIDS.

5. Some of us from/in the West have deep knowledge and understanding of

other cultures, as some of us who are from the South have the same in

respect to the North

6. Discussing sexual matters in a coherent way seem to be a stumbling

block for many. However, sexuality is talked about in all ethnic groups,

all over the world. HIV is a sexually transmitted virus and we talk too

little about that.

7. I am very happy to have met with two fine representatives from the

Swedish Pentecostal Church (both incidentally have lived long in Kenya)

who are working with their church in Sweden and partners in Africa (also

Kenya) on how to work more coherently on sexual matters in relation to

HIV.

8. I am very happy to hear that you have convinced church leaders to

work in the field of HIV/AIDS. I still fail to understand how so many of

them do not. It is their flock, their brothers and sisters who are ill

and who will have their lives shortened and leave orphans behind.

All the best

Calle

[Guest guest]

At 02:08 AM 11/13/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>My dear, you've left me confused!You want us to

>separate homosexuality from discussions about HIV/AIDS

>while at the same time you rightly state that HIV is

>an STV- where should we draw the line between the two?

I agree. Sexuality needs to be discussed. As well as ideas around the

so-called taboos.

>1.Many of them take drugs so as to " cloud " their

>involvement in these activities.At this stage, which

>many of them are at,aren't they a psycho-medical case?

Yes, many heterosexuals I have worked with take drugs to cloud their minds

and make the revolting activities that they must undertake with the

opposite gender tolerable. This is indeed a sickness.

>2.If we are concerned about women commercial sex

>workers vis-a-vis HIV, why shouldn't we take our youth

>through similar counselling and income generating

>support programs so that they can quit this practice?

Yes. That way, sex work can be left to those who willingly choose the vocation.

>3.Those who lure these young boys into the practice

>could be doing so by " choice " , " preference " and/or

> " orientation " , however,in the absence of our youth not

>being " enlightened " on how to protect themselves

>simply because the subject is taboo among Kenyan

>communities, how can we claim that we are addressing

>the issue of HIV/AIDS.Mind you, most of these young

>men become quite liquid financially due to the

>practice and do engage in their prefered sexual

>activity-with a chain of girlfriends!Can you now see

>where the danger lies?

Yes!! Lack of information is incredibly dangerous. As you suggest, helping

people out of sex work into better work is an excellent idea for those who

are into it reluctantly. And in any case, providing safer sex information

for those engaged in these activities along with water-based lubricant and

latex condoms is also important.

Otherwise, sexuality between consenting adults who actually enjoy the

activity with their partner(s) remains to also be addressed! I think even

some heterosexuals must enjoy sex, from what I have observed!

Providing the tools, options and opportunities to reduce risk of sexually

transmitted diseases and HIV I think is something we all agree upon?

M.

[Guest guest]

At 03:08 AM 11/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>Your comments above clearly capture the inherent

>problem that we face here in Kenya on the subject of

>homosexuality and the greatest impediment to your

>suggestions/solutions is that this practice is simply

>not acceptable among most Kenyan communities...

Here you have produced a number of concepts with which I disagree.

1) Conflating the concepts of homosexuality with sexual lust. Yep, lust is

sure a PART of it. Just as much as it is for heterosexuality. I think,

actually, we agree here. The difference may be that we have different

methods? Clearly, TELLING people how to behave/live may be comforting, but

people behave as they will. So giving OPTIONS is perhaps the better

approach, to wit, abstinence or condoms.

2) More specifically, you claim that Kenyan " communities " do not accept

homosexuality. But same-gender loving Kenyans must LIVE with who they are.

Some accept their lives, I am sure. And many families probably have a gay

or lesbian relative that they love as they are.

3) That same-gender attracted individuals can change sexual orientation.

Attempts have been made to do this--and met with failure. I'd warrant the

exceptions are among individuals who are fundamentally bisexual and thus

attracted to individuals of the opposite sex. I do not dispute your claims

per se but suggest the effect you may be seeing is not durable.

4) Your persistent, if generally more gentle, attempts to paint same-gender

attraction as an illness. For those of us who were made this way (and I

believe it is a blend of nature AND nurture), I cannot envision living a

lie with a woman. And I do not feel inherently evil, wicked or wrong

because I am in love with a man. Indeed, and to the contrary, it is a

remarkable and beautiful celebration of life.

To the extent FBOs play a role in trying to change orientations, they are

wasting resources. And to the extent they spend their time railing,

squealing and screaming about orientation, the farther they stray from the

teachings of peace and loving.

It is my hope that people can work together despite these differences to

recognize the bigger problems--AIDS, war, hate, anger. These we must try to

heal.

However, when it comes to the nitty gritty of how resources are expended,

we are NOT going to agree on spending monies to try to change a fundamental

and perfectly natural aspect of humans and mammals generally in that some

of us are attracted to members of the same sex.

And we will resist the discrimination and oppression of those who try to

dictate how we should live our lives as vociferously and appropriately as

those brave people who threw off colonial rule.

M.

[Guest guest]

At 02:30 AM 11/17/2003 -0800, you wrote:

> > 2) More specifically, you claim that Kenyan

> > " communities " do not accept

> > homosexuality. But same-gender loving Kenyans must

> > LIVE with who they are.

> > Some accept their lives, I am sure. And many

> > families probably have a gay

> > or lesbian relative that they love as they are.

>

>Has the loud silence from Kenyans who frequently

>contribute to this forum tell you something about this

>subject?

LOL. It could reflect a) indifference; agreement with me; c) agreement

with you; d) fear of expressing themselves.

>The mere fact thet they cannot write to this

>forum tells us volumes of how they would react if

>faced with this subject in the many areas that they

>are involved in the fight against HIV/AIDS or is it a

>case of lying low so as not to jeopardise the

>tightening of donor purse strings?

Probably. Especially if the donors are from the US where we have bigots

like the Family Research Council and others trying to help foster the

spread of HIV and oppression.

> > To the extent FBOs play a role in trying to change

> > orientations, they are

> > wasting resources.

>

>Aren't we becoming the judge now? If it hasn't worked

>with you why dismiss what has happened to others? Are

>we dismissing the efforts and approach that FBOs are

>contributing towards the fight against HIV/AIDS?

Yes! Becoming the judge based on both data and personal experience. Data

show that changing orientation does NOT work. Any more than " abstinence

only. " I'm not dismissing all work of FBOs. I am dismissing bigotry and

oppression as useful tools of behavior change.

By contrast, you are exhibiting PRE-judgement (a/k/a prejudice) by

presuming that same gender interactions are wrong or bad (especially with

those rather insidious comparisons). Many of us disagree with that, I might

drily note. Even people of faith.

> > However, when it comes to the nitty gritty of how

> > resources are expended,

> > we are NOT going to agree on spending monies to try

> > to change a fundamental

> > and perfectly natural aspect of humans and mammals

> > generally in that some

> > of us are attracted to members of the same sex.

>

>Humans? Mammals? I do not wish to go into stigmatizing

>a people that I work very closely with but your

>statement begs for many answers as far as the natural

>sexual preferences of mammals is concerned.

Humans are mammals. Mammals engage in opposite and same gender activity.

Example: male grizzly bears sometimes couple up and stay together for long

periods. Same gender sexual behavior, like opposite gender sexual behavior,

is perfectly natural.

>However, the issue that I was raising for debate is

>not the morality test vis-a-vis homosexuality but

>whether here in Kenya this subject can frankly and

>openly be discussed among Kenyan communities and if

>they decide amongst themselves that the practice is

>unacceptable shall we as some of us are saying " NOT

>going to agree on spending monies to try to change a

>fundamental and perfectly natural aspect of humans and

>mammals "

I don't think I've seen any referenda among Kenyans. But, having a peculiar

American view of defending the minority, I suggest that the choice should

rest with Kenyans who have homosexual or bisexual orientations (and aren't

conflicted by it). I do NOT buy this cultural imperative nonsense that you

are trying to use as a defense for this bigotry.

>Come on lets hear from you Kenyans

This is an excellent idea. Here is one example of Kenyans wrestling with

the issue:

http://www.changingattitude.org/news_i_c_kenya_paedophile.html

One distinction that is made but I wish to clarify is noting that

pedophilia and homosexuality are NOT equivalent. The author alludes to

this. Sexual abuse of children can be same gender or opposite gender and is

a form of rape, not a consenting sexual liaison.

M.

[Guest guest]

At 03:50 PM 11/17/2003 +0300, you wrote:

>Maingi,

>

>Just keep on as you're speaking for majority of Kenyans in this field.

>

>The silence is a clear indication of how this is a no-go area for most.

LOL...I don't think you can make any such conclusion. However, say you are

correct and a poll finds a majority of Kenyans uncomfortable with

homosexuality. To my way of thinking, partly as a result of the pluralistic

culture in which I find myself, the ideal is to protect the minorities in a

population.

Indeed, it is such a notion that finally turned the completely acceptable

(to the majority) attitudes toward slavery, Africans, native Americans (as

less than white people from a legal standpoint) around. That oppression had

to end. It was despicable...but people at the time made all sorts of

eloquent arguments, even resorting to the Bible to justify their racism.

Hell, people STILL do that.

It is no different for those who are attracted to the same gender.

The reference to mammals--which humans are, you might note--is that, as I

mentioned, sexual activity is a given. Much of it is opposite gender

activity. But it is not at all uncommon among various taxa to find same

gender activity occurring. If you wish to use that as a means to demean

same-sex activity, then you cast a stone in a glass house. God knows how

many nature shows depict lions humping and so forth.

M.

[Guest guest]

,

Some of us just know that this is very bad even if we have no reasons for thinking the way we do, because that is how we were brought up -it is not there in our culture. I have seen private emails from people who are shocked, shocked that these discussions are even taking place in the first place. But I don't mind reading from everyone who has something to say -I have been learning alot, though I still have a long way to go -I will still faint if my son walks in today to announce that he is gay.

ine.

-----Original Message-----From: M. [mailto:fiar@...]Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:22 AMAIDS treatments Subject: RE: homosexuality -do not close debate.At 03:50 PM 11/17/2003 +0300, you wrote:>Maingi,>>Just keep on as you're speaking for majority of Kenyans in this field.>>The silence is a clear indication of how this is a no-go area for most.LOL...I don't think you can make any such conclusion. However, say you are correct and a poll finds a majority of Kenyans uncomfortable with homosexuality. To my way of thinking, partly as a result of the pluralistic culture in which I find myself, the ideal is to protect the minorities in a population.Indeed, it is such a notion that finally turned the completely acceptable (to the majority) attitudes toward slavery, Africans, native Americans (as less than white people from a legal standpoint) around. That oppression had to end. It was despicable...but people at the time made all sorts of eloquent arguments, even resorting to the Bible to justify their racism. Hell, people STILL do that.It is no different for those who are attracted to the same gender.The reference to mammals--which humans are, you might note--is that, as I mentioned, sexual activity is a given. Much of it is opposite gender activity. But it is not at all uncommon among various taxa to find same gender activity occurring. If you wish to use that as a means to demean same-sex activity, then you cast a stone in a glass house. God knows how many nature shows depict lions humping and so forth. M.

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

This years subject of the world AIDS campaign is stigma and

discrimination.

Reading the discussion on this list... we need at least another 10

years with the same subject. In fighting the disease our personal

ideas/ believes are not important. Nobody asks anybody to becomeor to

be gay, polygamous, a drugabuser or whatever. Confronted with HIV no

one is helped by the statement: " You shouldn't have done that "

(whatever " that " might be) or " You shouldn't be like this "

(whatever " this " might be). Social exclusion, silence and non-

acceptance open the way to the spread of the disease.. it is one of

the reasons why it has become so epidemic.

As a reminder... below the text of the world campaign 2003...

Live and let live, peace to you all,

Caroline

HIV and AIDS can touch raw nerves in all our communities. The stigma

of HIV and AIDS relates to deep taboos within society. For many the

disease has a strong association with prolonged illness, death, sex

and drug use -- issues that many of us find difficult to talk about

openly. Along with general discomfort about discussing these 'taboo'

issues, many communities are also dealing with high levels of

ignorance, denial, fear and intolerance about the disease itself.

This potent combination can lead to rejection and even aggression

against people living with HIV. As a result, people with HIV have

been disowned by their families, fired from their jobs, asked to

leave their homes. They can face discrimination in receiving medical

care. In extreme cases they have even been physically attacked.

Stigma and discrimination can lead to depression, lack of self-worth

and despair for people living with HIV. But people living with the

disease are not the only ones endangered by this fear and prejudice.

Negative attitudes about HIV can create a climate in which people

become more afraid of the stigma and discrimination associated with

the disease than of the disease itself. When fear and discrimination

prevail, people may choose to ignore the possibility that they may be

HIV-positive - even if they know they have taken risks. And people

may decide not to take measures to protect themselves in fear that in

doing so they could be associating themselves with HIV. All of this

helps to create an environment in which the disease can more easily

spread.

This year's World AIDS Campaign encourages both individuals and

institutions to reflect on how they respond to those living with HIV

and AIDS. With challenging posters and television images the campaign

clearly shows how the most painful symptoms of HIV and AIDS are often

the reactions of others. When someone feels safe within their own

community, they are more likely to take responsibility for their HIV

status. This is why it is so important for all of us to examine our

own attitudes. We need to ask ourselves: are we helping to create an

environment where people can take responsibility for themselves and

others? Or do our attitudes contribute to an environment of shame,

fear and denial that prevents people from taking action? Only by

confronting stigma and discrimination across the world will the fight

against HIV/AIDS be won.

Live and let live. Help us fight fear, shame, ignorance and injustice

worldwide.

[Guest guest]

At 09:24 AM 11/18/2003 -0800, you wrote:

a)Indifference? - I beg to differ.The quality of input

by many who contribute to this forum and their

supposed knowledge, expertise and exposure to issues

on HIV/AIDS would condemn them out of this field if

they showed an iota of indifference towards issues

touching on homosexuality.To me this indifference can

only be so as to attract donor funding and back to

slavery(economic)that you so eloquently argue

against.I wonder if free tickets+accomodation for

Kenyans were offered for a conference on HIV/AIDS and

homosexuality, whether the planes and hotel rooms

would be empty! Indifference ? No its called

economic slavery and singing to the tune of

international donors.

That's a different set of issues--and EXTREMELY important. I agree that

economic slavery remains an enormous problem and one upon which I think we

would agree on a lot of areas. E.g., the horror visited upon Africa by

Structural Adjustment Programs.

b)Agreement with me?-Let them say so for themselves so

that I may know that am not alone in this and thus

synchronise our varied intervention measures

c)Agreement with you?-Let them say so so that I may

know that am alone and banging my head on the wall

Agreed, agreed. All are free to air their views!! And free to disagree with

each other. I think, though this clearly has a lot of emotional content that

we can appreciate our differences respectfully and peacefully if vigorously.

d)Fear of expressing themselves?-BULLS EYE!!!

Could well be. But not, I hope, because of the forcefulness of expression of

either of our arguments.

With due respect , what and whose data and what

were the parameters used to collect this data? What

was the sample used and in which country among which

community and by whom?What....when...why...who...?

Ah! I thought you knew the literature. Well, there have been a number of

studies on

a) " conversion " either from same gender to opposite gender (though none on

the reverse: opposite gender to same gender which might make sense from the

standpoint of reducing the excessive population).

The value of condoms as a very important if not primary component of ABC.

Would your experience alone be considered to be the

norm and form a universal case study that throws into

the garbage bin the efforts of other

organizations?

LOL--yes!! For me, it would. But I agree that such efforts are best

evaluated using good methodology.

, I believe that you know what you

are calling data would have to be subjected to the

litmus test to prove its authenticity.We can too

produce data to show that our intervention measures,

including abstinence, do have a positive impact in the

fight against HIV/AIDS but that does not make us

rubbish the efforts of others.

Abstinence is another story. In some areas, it can be very effective. but

NOT I think without also including condoms use.

Your judgemental attitude,tone and use of words

towards this subject brings out a picture of someone

who would only entertain similar thoughts and

preferences to yours-am not sure whether it's a case

of intolerance or insecurity or both.Calm down cause

we who live among communities where the practice is

unacceptable would learn alot from you rather than you

refering to us as bigots.Indeed I might help you in

the process.

Likewise. I might help you recognize that your views are indeed a form of

bigotry. To those of us who are attracted to the same gender, that's ALL it

is. You never did answer my question regarding your scriptural basis for

your claims.

>

> I don't think I've seen any referenda among Kenyans.

> But, having a peculiar

> American view of defending the minority,

>

Yes I totally agree with you-it is indeed an American

view.

That's too bad. The risk of groups that do not adopt a more compassionate

view of minorities risk horrors as were visited upon the Tutsis. Or the

Jews. Or the Tibetans.

>

>I suggest

> that the choice should

> rest with Kenyans who have homosexual or bisexual

> orientations (and aren't

> conflicted by it).

>

That Kenyan choice and views is what you are not ready

to listen to and from the silence experienced from my

fellow Kenyans on this subject, you've scared many

from expressing their views openly in this KENYAN

forum.Remember the threats to have a number of you

removed from this forum's list?

Now you are accusing me of the power to frighten people from expressing

their views? Nonsense. Perhaps they are frightened if they suddenly realize

that what they are doing is creating an oppressive atmosphere against people

who either tolerate/accept people attracted to the same gender or are

attracted to members of the same gender.

>I do NOT buy this cultural

> imperative nonsense that you

> are trying to use as a defense for this bigotry.

>

>It is not a defence , it's the reality!Neither

is it culture-It's natural(like eating our favorite

food Ugali).MOST Kenyans have sex the way God wanted

it,and I suppose it's the same with mammals.I do visit

our National Parks in the course of my work and

,yes I do confirm we dont have grizzly bears

here in Kenya but am yet to see or hear of a bull

elephant mating with another bull or in our little

villages, a cock mounting another cock!Please let's

get our scientific facts right and let's not twist

them to suit our defence.

It's natural to hate. It's natural to be angry. It's natural to kill. It's

natural to love. Don't you think your energy and efforts would be better

spent caring for people and finding solutions rather than justifying

prejudice by claiming some sort of ersatz cultural imperative?

But regardless, here you are doing exactly what you accuse me of--using

your own few observations to justify an irrational belief that same gender

activity does not occur in the animal kingdom. A wee bit disingenuous,

don't you think?

Grizzly bear are, of course, only one example. Others abound and I wouldn't

be surprised if elephants of the same gender get it on. For example:

http://www.americanhumanist.org/press/TPGayMarriage.htm

Another example:

Dispatch from Zurich

Homosexuality in animals

For the month of May, as part of the city's " Warm May " festival, the Zurich

Zoo is trying something new: a guided tour exploring homosexuality in the

animal world. " I don't know of any species that is exclusively

heterosexual, " says tour guide Myriam Schärz. " There are studies of this

going back hundreds of years, although scientists were previously reluctant

to explore the matter further for fear that they would themselves be branded

gay, " she said. " Right here in Zurich we once had a gay flamingo couple who

remained partners for life. In Cologne zoo they have a pair of lesbian

penguins who each year steal an egg from one of their neighbors and treat it

as their own. " Here's a quick look at homosexuality in nature, a reference

to a 1999 study which documented homosexual activity in more than 450 animal

species, and a review of how anti-homosexuality groups deal with this

inconvenient fact. On SwissInfo.org:

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=511 & sid=1841425

Your arguments do not help the FEW Kenyans, some of

whom have " financially induced preferences " by

tourists (isn't that abuse by your minority group?)and

pose a big threat to the spread of HIV/AIDS along our

Kenyan coastline.Think about it from this perspective

and not as a fight against your minority group.

Thank you and let the Kenyans speak out

The accusation that I am preventing ANYONE from speaking out is baseless

nonsense.

But I am grateful for the dialogue and hope that at the end of the day, both

our hearts will be softened toward each other and, if not agreement, then at

least respect for the divergence of our views will grow from this.

M.

***

Articles on " ethics " of conversion:

TF. The ethics of conversion therapy. Bioethics. 1991 Apr;5(2):123-38.

....Both the past and present have seen a number of methods being used to

extinguish homoerotic desire and behavior and to inaugurate heteroeroticism

in their place, methods I will here call conversion therapies...The typical

defense of such therapy holds that even if homoeroticism is not necessarily

a disease or evil, neither is it a universal good...Conversion therapy is

morally defensible, on such a view, because some people suffer from the

perceived consequences of homoerotic orientations despite the freedom and

toleration extended to gay men and lesbians in certain areas...Against the

view that conversion therapy is morally defensible as a matter of personal

preference, I here argue that such therapy is morally suspect and should be

resisted for a number of reasons....

***

Drescher J. Ethical issues in treating gay and lesbian patients. Psychiatr

Clin North Am. 2002 Sep;25(3):605-21, vii-viii.

Alanson White Psychoanalytic Institute, 420 West 23 Street, #7D,

New York, NY 10011, USA. jadres@...

Since the 1973 decision to remove homosexuality from the list of mental

disorders, most mental health practitioners have shifted their clinical

focus from " the cure " of homosexuality to treating the concerns of gay and

lesbian patients. Some clinicians, however, reject the mental health

mainstream's view and continue to conceptualize homosexuality as a mental

disorder. Their clinical theories have been incorporated into wider societal

debates regarding the status of gay and lesbian people. The sexual

conversion or reparative therapies they practice, however, may include

routine ethical violations in the realm of improper pressure,

confidentiality, informed consent, and fiduciary responsibility to the

patient's best interest. On the other hand, a normal/identity approach to

treatment, particularly in its most reductionistic forms, may involve

ethical lapses in the areas of informed consent and fiduciary responsibility

to the patient's best interests as well.

[Guest guest]

Caroline,

We all should join hands in fighting the stigma associated with HIV/AIDS and am sure we are all on the same page as far as this one is concerned. But as far as homosecuality is concerened, the way I see it out here in Kenya....I think every society has it's social norms and those who don't conform to the social-cultural norms of the communities in which they live can expect some stigma until those societal norms change. Hence the homosexuals in America may enjoy acceptance while those in Kenya have a long way before their behaviours can be completely accepted, if we ever get there.

ine.

-----Original Message-----From: yamanjanl [mailto:c.yemanja@...]Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 1:43 AMAIDS treatments Subject: Re: homosexuality -do not close debate.

Dear all,This years subject of the world AIDS campaign is stigma and discrimination. Reading the discussion on this list... we need at least another 10 years with the same subject. In fighting the disease our personal ideas/ believes are not important. Nobody asks anybody to becomeor to be gay, polygamous, a drugabuser or whatever. Confronted with HIV no one is helped by the statement: "You shouldn't have done that" (whatever "that" might be) or "You shouldn't be like this" (whatever "this" might be). Social exclusion, silence and non- acceptance open the way to the spread of the disease.. it is one of the reasons why it has become so epidemic. As a reminder... below the text of the world campaign 2003... Live and let live, peace to you all,Caroline

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for your efforts in trying to dymistyfy homosexuality. I think the more people understand what goes on, the less the stigma towards gay people. Personally I have always been curious what exactly a man does with a fellow man, sexually. In African traditional romance, a man would admire a woman's behind, breats, hips etc -I am curious to know what a gay man admires in another man for example.

The findings on homosexuality in other animals are interesting too. The example of the lesbian penguins is interesting -I'm only worried that if same gender associations be natural, then they had better be self-sustaining -why for example, should a same-gender couple also be endowed with the desire to have babies when biologically they cannot do so? I think the nature that makes them love same gender missed an important point here. Serious ethical issues come to mind when the couple have to steal babies, or adapt babies who may later not wish to have been brought up in a gay family.

Keep up with the debate.

ine.

-----Original Message-----From: M. [mailto:fiar@...]Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:02 AMAIDS treatments Subject: RE: homosexuality -do not close debate.

[Guest guest]

At 03:39 PM 11/19/2003 +0300, you wrote:

,

Thanks for your efforts in

trying to dymistyfy homosexuality. I think the more people

understand what goes on, the less the stigma towards gay people.

Personally I have always been curious what exactly a man does with a

fellow man, sexually. In African traditional romance, a man would admire

a woman's behind, breats, hips etc -I am curious to know what a gay man

admires in another man for example.

LOL...depends on the guy. What turns you on about a hot guy? You know

that feeling you get? We share that. Maybe for you, it is his eyes. For

me, personally, I find eyes, hands and hips most attractive in a

man...but first the eyes. And his heart. And spirit. Physically, some men

attract me strongly. Most don't. There's no real difference. Each to his

or her own.

The

findings on homosexuality in other animals are interesting too. The

example of the lesbian penguins is interesting -I'm only worried that if

same gender associations be natural, then they had better be

self-sustaining -why for example, should a same-gender couple also be

endowed with the desire to have babies when biologically they cannot do

so? I think the nature that makes them love same gender missed an

important point here. Serious ethical issues come to mind when the couple

have to steal babies, or adapt babies who may later not wish to have been

brought up in a gay family.

Most adoptees of gay families seem to do just fine. ANY child growing up

may have trouble with his parent(s)/family. It's the amount of love,

caring and support that makes the family, not the genders of those doing

the raising.

As to having kids, I have dear friends who have had a child--they're a

lesbian couple. The child is wonderful and very happy so far. Just one

case. Could kids grow up resentful of 2 mothers or 2 dads? Absolutely.

But kids grow up resentful or hating a mother or father. Teenage

rebellion seems to be almost unavoidable in any family

construct!

I argue that there are TOO MANY humans on the planet, given the strain on

resources that this causes. We must seek to REDUCE the population. War,

famine, disease--these are all very sloppy, inefficient and ethically

depressing means to do so.

By contrast, if more people were gay....

(LOL...OK, I say that PARTLY tongue-in-cheek...)

M.

[Guest guest]

Dear ine and others;

I wish to comment you all on the quality of discussion you have sustained on this issue. I have followed the discussion on this subject and have admired the contribution from each one of you. The different orientation of those who have actively vontributed has helpd to dimistify and would contribute to reduction in stigma and discrimination against gay and lesbians. Keep up the lively debate.

Arap Koech

Original Message-----From: Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:40 PM'AIDS treatments 'Subject: RE: homosexuality -do not close debate.

,

Thanks for your efforts in trying to dymistyfy homosexuality. I think the more people understand what goes on, the less the stigma towards gay people. Personally I have always been curious what exactly a man does with a fellow man, sexually. In African traditional romance, a man would admire a woman's behind, breats, hips etc -I am curious to know what a gay man admires in another man for example.

The findings on homosexuality in other animals are interesting too. The example of the lesbian penguins is interesting -I'm only worried that if same gender associations be natural, then they had better be self-sustaining -why for example, should a same-gender couple also be endowed with the desire to have babies when biologically they cannot do so? I think the nature that makes them love same gender missed an important point here. Serious ethical issues come to mind when the couple have to steal babies, or adapt babies who may later not wish to have been brought up in a gay family.

Keep up with the debate.

ine.

-----Original Message-----From: M. [mailto:fiar@...]Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:02 AMAIDS treatments Subject: RE: homosexuality -do not close debate.http://www./group/http://www./group/aids-africa (a group made up of Africans worldwide)Join Digital Africa- an information technology group that discusses IT in Africa at http://www./group/digafrica

[Guest guest]

At 07:46 AM 11/21/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>snip

>Patiently(and pray first) read

>1.The Book of Genesis from the beginning(so that you

>may understand and know God and His plans for us all)

>upto Chapter18 as to why why he destroyed Sodom and

>Gomorrah

Why DID God ostenisbly destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

>2.The Book of Leviticus on with whom and how we should

>relate to one another-the foundational rules of our

>very existence as human beings

Do you adhere to ALL the laws of Leviticus? Do you understand what the

specific reference to man shall not lie with man refers to?

>3.The Book of Romans Chapters 1+2

Is this the word of God or the word of ? Indeed--do you believe that

the bible is LITERALLY true, the word of God? If so, what language does god

speak? Swahili?

>4.The Book of ICorinthians Chapter7

Thanks for sharing these. I haven't read that passage.

> > That's too bad. The risk of groups that do not adopt

> > a more compassionate

> > view of minorities risk horrors as were visited upon

> > the Tutsis. Or the

> > Jews. Or the Tibetans.

> >

>Or the Iraqis

Indeed. Either under Saddam Hussein (e.g., the Shi'ites and Kurds) or under

the even worse conditions resulting from a war rooted in outright lies of

Bush and Blair. A war that has only created more anger and hatred,

infuriated moderate muslims and done nothing to make the world more secure

but to the contrary has simply made it more dangerous at great costs both

economically and in terms of the lives of people in Iraq (locals and

foreigners alike). Why, I'm sure Iraq will be just as much of a democracy

as Kuwait now is--one of the reasons daddy claimed we needed to save them

from Iraq. (More resonance of the horrors of colonialism.) Examples abound.

I'm sure that sex is a significant issue for enough people that they do

have it even in villages. And the desire of some to share their sexuality

with those of the same gender I do not believe is entirely foreign to rural

or urban Africans, any more than it is to Asians, Americans (N, Central and

South) or Europeans. It just may take different forms or be more brutally

repressed, as the South Africans did under Apartheid.

It is a HUMAN issue as much as how us humans interact in the microcosms of

a family or village or the macrocosms of a nation or continent.

M.

[Guest guest]

At 01:28 AM 11/23/2003 -0800, you wrote:

and all

>

> Why DID God ostenisbly destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

>

Aha!Now we are heading somewhere.I deliderately left

out Chpt19 so that God can put into your heart the

desire to find out why he destroyed Sodom and

Gomorrah.Read on brother and pray that he reveals to

you the reason why.

Emphasis on verses4+5,9

The way I read it, the folks were smited not because of same sex

activity, but because they were rude, impolite and unwelcoming. And you

think it is just OK for Lot to give up his TWO DAUGHTERS to get raped by

these guys instead? Phew....that's a sick piece of work in my world. And

then the daughters get Lot drunk and have sex with their own dad? Phew.

Your Kenyan-bible is pretty raunchy.

But the whole story, starting with chapter 14, has more to do with SO

many other issues than this one equivocal bit about whether among their

other sins, these guys wanted to rape some men. (That is NOT about love

or even just consensual sex.)

Now mind you--this is a middle eastern religious text in any event. The

original culture of Kenya, as you well know, was not always invaded with

the thinking of this text.

Remember what I told you about

" financially induced

sexual preferences/orientation " along the Kenyan coast

and " donor induced silence/acceptance of sexual

preferences/orientation " ?

Oh Simon, don't be such a dolt. Sex work is a FACT of life, whether same

gender or opposite gender. I saw a female hooker soliciting men: AHA! All

men are pigs! All women are whores!! Sheesh. Get a grip, dear.

Now--the PROBLEM is when sex work is NOT done by choice. People do it for

economic reasons, for drugs, for loneliness. Sex work isn't about being

all that attracted to the client. Clients are often ugly as sin--so ANY

sex is not relevant to the orientation of the participants.

>The mistake we made as Africans is to embrace

" Sodom and Gomorrah "

rather than offer/fight for what

was acceptable to us (Vs.9).

You mean acceptable to you and your adopted version of ancient

texts.

>

> Do you adhere to ALL the laws of Leviticus? Do you

> understand what the

> specific reference to man shall not lie with man

> refers to?

>

No there are many a time I have fallen short of the

Glory of God but I dont give up because I know the

laws of Leviticus are good for me.

You mean you HAVEN'T stoned anyone lately? Slaughtered a

bullock?

I HOPE you've adhered to " ...Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender

with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed:

neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

"

Dear god...Simon...have you shaved today???

" Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou

mar the corners of thy beard "

>> Is this the word of God or the word of ?

> Indeed--do you believe that

> the bible is LITERALLY true, the word of God? If so,

> what language does god

> speak? Swahili?

>

Whether it is the word of ,God or even , it

makes sense to me as to trully represent what my

people,the Agikuyu, consider to be acceptable.

LOL...since they were colonialized by white missionaries?

My advise to you is that you dont

choose passages,

pray and read the entire Bible otherwise you will

waste alot of energy seeking out passages that allow

homosexuality-there's none!Same with our African

culture-there are none!

There's more proscriptions in that book regarding heterosexual acts and

virtually NOTHING about lesbian sex in the bible. But again, you embrace

this tool of cultural oppression and turn around and try to use it on

lesbian and gay Kenyans?

By the bye, 1 Corinthians Ch. 7 seems to be a litany of laws that I

suspect people are ignorant of or indifferent to as far as marriage and

all that. Perhaps you can help explain where wife inheritance fits into

that?

>It is a HUMAN issue as much as how us humans

> interact in the microcosms of

> a family or village or the macrocosms of a nation or

> continent.

>

Human? Mammals? Interaction? Natural? You have used

very many nice words since this debate opened but I

have a " natural " question, forgive my ignorance, on

what is " natural " as far as sexual arousal/intercourse

is concerned:

Yep. I'd say celibacy is what is UNnatural--but for some it is a good way

to live.

My limited knowledge in biology

tells me that in the

process of a male getting sexually aroused, there's an

initial discharge of fluid that takes place through

the penis that acts as a lubricant during penetration

into the vagina.

You don't have a penis?

Similarly, the same happens in

the

female's vaginal wall .These discharges increase as

the OPPOSITE couples approach orgasm.

From your tool-kit prescription of what should be used

in the case of homosexuals, you mentioned use of

liquid gels, lubricants and condoms.Now, which

of the above two sounds and is " natural " to you?And in

the case of the same gender couple approaching

orgasm,I believe that the biological parameters of the

" male " remain unchanged but please do enlighten me on

whether the anal walls of the " female " do behave the

same as in the case of a natural female.These

questions are in the spirit of this year's

theme: " stigma and discrimination " so dont get me

wrong.Just trying to understand you

The rather thin veil that covers your prurience and hate is beginning to

tatter and blow away finally! Hurray!! Perhaps once your full ugliness is

revealed, healing might begin. I think that the politeness you have

generally shown masks a really deep-seated hatred. Perhaps I'm wrong--but

whatever the negative state of mind is, I hope you will look at THAT and

see THAT as an horrific demon that needs to be exorcised.

Anyway--first. Anal sex is NOT restricted to men. Human males often

penetrate either men or women via the rectum. Indeed, sometimes women

strap one on and go at it to other men or women. Not quite the same,

but...

No one argues that the more common mode of copulation between men and

women is facilitated by the lubricant mostly produced by the woman. Most

sex acts, contrary to the teachings of some churches, are just for fun.

Not procreation. Thank heavens as there are way too many people on the

planet anyway.

Now, in case it slipped your mind, there are reasons we talk about

condoms in the present time because they drastically reduce the spread of

HIV (and other STDs). LATEX condoms are used for that. LUBE is used,

often for vaginal or anal sex, to make the experience more pleasurable.

Water-based lube should be used.

Otherwise, just to have raw anal sex, it certainly can be done without

condoms or even lube. Things DO get moist enough during the act that

sexual pleasure may be derived by both participants. (Of course, anally

receptive men get a prostate massage that women don't get.) Of course,

people use butter, animal fat, vegetable oil, Crisco and so forth (or

just spit) to get it in there--but these fat-based lubricants can cause

the latex condom to deteriorate and increase the chance it will

break.

Is there access to water-based lube in Kenya?

Back to your earlier question as to

why God destroyed

Sodom and Gomorrah, if I was to use a human mind I'd

imagine God did not want to create an eigth day of

creating rubber,latex,gels and lubricants.Imagine what

Sodom and Gomorrah would have done to all of us to

this day-an eight day week!

Yes, and this god could have spend a 9th day making wings so we could

fly.

M.

****

HE; LW Jr; Lohr BA. Is

homophobia associated with homosexual arousal? J Abnorm Psychol 1996

Aug;105(3):440-445.

Department of Psychology, University of Georgia, Athens 30602-3013,

USA.

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively

heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual

individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35)

and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups

on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson

& W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit

erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian

videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also

completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. , 1992).

Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the

heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed

an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did

not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with

homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or

denies.

[Guest guest]

At 03:01 AM 11/26/2003 -0800, you wrote:

> dearest

Oh! You DO love me! Shucks...wanna trade pics?

> > So angels are men? Interesting...the man I love is

> > an angel! lol...

> >

>So is the devil and the man that you love .........

And God, too, huh? Big white guy with a long beard?

> > And this is how you envision Kenyan peoples to

> > emulate? Should in this day

> > and age of HIV, the women ask their dad to put on a

> > condom?

> >

>Thank God we haven't embraced Sodom and Gomorrah as

>you have been advocating yet.

LOL...to the contrary! I'd say you DO embrace Sodom and Gomorrah. If I'm

, then ye shall be Lot.

>Incest just like homosexuality,lesbianism,making love

>to a loaf of bread or being made love to by a piece of

>banana or sausage is prohibited.

Really? Gosh, not according to the scripture you quoted! Gee, is there

conflicting Scripture?

>The only thing you

>could probably try that I haven't come across in the

>bible is a live African beehive.

Perhaps because the bible is an import from the middle east by way of europe?

>Learnt awhile back it's safer to have a

>single- " minded " focus on matters of God and sexuality

>rather than a single-penis focus.

I see. So you adhere to ALL the proscriptions and directions of the old

testament?

M.

***

> Dr. Schlessinger recently said that, as an

> observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an

> abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot

> be condoned under any circumstance.

>

> The following is an open letter to Dr. penned by

> a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's

> funny, as well as informative:

>

> Dear Dr :

>

> Thank you for doing so much to educate people

> regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from

> your show, and try to share that knowledge with as a

> many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the

> homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind

> them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an

> abomination ..... end of debate.

>

> I do need some advice from you, however, regarding

> some of the other specific laws and how to follow

> them:

>

> 1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I

> know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord -

> Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the

> odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

>

> 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as

> sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what

> do you think would be a fair price for her?

>

> 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman

> while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness -

> Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have

> tried asking, but most women take offense.

>

> 4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves,

> both male and female,provided they are purchased from

> neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that

> this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you

> clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

>

> 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the

> Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put

> to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

>

> 6. Eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev.

> 11:10. Is it a lesser abomination than homosexuality?

> I don't agree. Can you settle this?

>

> 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar

> of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to

> admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision

> have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

>

> 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed,

> including the hair around their temples, even though

> this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should

> they die?

>

> 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a

> dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play

> football if I wear gloves?

>

> 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by

> planting two different crops in the same field, as

> does his wife by wearing garments made of two

> different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He

> also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really

> necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the

> whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16.

> Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private

> family affair like we do with people who sleep with

> their in-laws?

> (Lev

> 20:14)

>

> I know you have studied these things extensively, so I

> am confident you can help. Thank you again for

> reminding us that God's word is eternal and

> unchanging.

>

> Your devoted disciple and adoring fan, Ackerman

>

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry Simon but this is not a minority rights debate whatever

that means. I thought constitutions gave every citizen the same

rights. What we are here debating is the way in which HIV-AIDS and

the horrendous rates of infections can be controlled and

eliminated. and I will look after the same sex minorities

for you. Most of them are uninfected anyway and most also know how

to stay that way thanks to the global gay community and the

effective messages that are readily accessible.

We have also found some medical people who will treat sexually

transmissable infections in those same sex attracted people who

were chased away from the medical services that should treat

everyone so they will now be taken care of.

What I am waiting to see is the traditional Kenyan faith model in

action and a dramatic decrease in the rate of infections based on

your tried and truthful bible. Like the prophets of old let's see

whose God is the most powerful. You have a distinct advantage of

course because there are more branch offices of your God in Africa

of all denominations than any other country in the world so you

will have a head start.

I don't wish to continue participating in the debate about whether

God favours those who he made to function heterosexually over

those who he made to function homosexually because I think I know

which corners we are in right now. I am thankful that Her Majesty,

the Queen of England and Head of the worlds Anglicans has just

spoken out publicly in favour of the recognition of the

partnerships of sexual minorities and I'm not sure yet whether God

is changing his mind or whether senile dementia is affecting my

Queen. I also thank God that my career is now over and I am just

using my life skills as a sexual health and safety educator to

help all those who would have ears to hear. It is of course great

fun and I can't wait to meet the border-border riders next time I

am in Kisumu, and the school drop-outs in Banana Hill because they

have all invited me back to help their focus.

Geoffrey

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 Simon Maingi wrote :

>

>You have heard the voice of one who was brave enough

>to tell you as it is here in Kenya.You may choose to

>listen to some career " minority rights " activists

>because they need a job,career and donor support

>through gays like you or listen to the voice from the

>grassroots.

>I suggest you move your activism from behind your high

>office,seek some funding from your government or gay

>club and come to Kenya on a mission to rescue the

> " African in the Jungle " from religious bigotry and

>primitive cultural practices.I guarantee you that I

>will personally make arrangements to have you address

>not less than 10 meetings(faith and non-faith) of not

>less than 200 participants at each meeting within the

>Coast Province.Who knows, you might encounter a trully

>lovable mijikenda woman with her " hando " and it will

>dawn on you that hips are not just hips.I believe

>after that mission we shall be in a better position to

>continue this debate.

>Thank you for giving me a live insight of Sodom and

>Gomorrah-it's terrifying!

>God loves you M. for Ye shall be called

>, in Jesus name.

>God bless you

>Simon Maingi

>__________________________________

Geoff Heaviside

Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

A Social Justice & Welfare Service Agency

P.O. Box 606

SUNSHINE 3020 Australia

Ph: +61 3 9449 1856 - Local (03) 9449 1856

Cell +61418328278 - Local 0418 328 278

INDIA

Geoff Heaviside

T.Nagar 600017

Chennai India

Cell 9840 097 178

" Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for

lunch.

Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesti

[Guest guest]

At 12:06 AM 11/27/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>

>

>You have heard the voice of one who was brave enough

>to tell you as it is here in Kenya.

And you have heard the voice of one who was brave enough to tell you how it

is to live as sexual minority in a world that hates us for simply being who

we are. And we are in Kenya--and all over the world. We are your friends,

children, parents (yes, gay parents), aunts, uncles, cousins. We are human

beings. And if your God loves us so very much, then perhaps there are

better ways for you to spend your time and energy than in oppressing us?

>You may choose to

>listen to some career " minority rights " activists

>because they need a job,career and donor support

>through gays like you or listen to the voice from the

>grassroots.

LOL...I do most of what I do as a volunteer. Who pays you?

Yes, I listen to the people that are in need of help. Which is why I've

listened to you.

Thanks for the kind offer to come speak, dearest Lot, and if it becomes

possible, perhaps I shall meet you there one day.

M.

[Guest guest]

Dear Simon,

Dear all,

It is interesting how we have different perceptions.

Mine is that you Simon have been a driving force behind this debate.

My interest is, as I have stated many times, sexual transmission of HIV,

regardless of if between males or males and females.

On the point of homosexuality and the law in Kenya, I would agree that

Kenyans who feel touched by this in one way or another would be the best

to solve any problem. I am a bit surprised that Galebirta has made its

voice heard (for onformation on them see www.mask.org.za and under

countries) and I copy them for information.

As we previously have debated churches invovment, I would like again to

point out the excellent work of BBC. They have daily updates. Please see

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/3237358.stm >

And have a very good week-end all of you.

Calle

Thank you.

Atleast I have some insight into gay/lesbian thoughts

and behavior when I sit down to consider my opposition

to the clause on gays/lesbian rights in our

constitution drafting process.As I have always

suspected, it was ,Geoff,Calle,,Queen(?)

driven and doesnt have any Kenyan ownership

whatsoever.

Thank you for helping me make a decision for BomasIII constitution

making process.

God bless you

Simon

[Guest guest]

Interesting to read about the World AIDS Day slogan, " Live and Let Live " , in

the context of the discussion on this list about sexual orientations....

Boston, Massachusetts, USA

http://www.unaids.org/wac/2002/index_en.html

The World AIDS Campaign 2003 continues to focus on stigma and discrimination

under the slogan Live and let live….

HIV and AIDS can touch raw nerves in all our communities. The stigma of HIV

and AIDS relates to deep taboos within society. For many the disease has a

strong association with prolonged illness, death, sex and drug use -- issues

that many of us find difficult to talk about openly. Along with general

discomfort about discussing these 'taboo' issues, many communities are also

dealing with high levels of ignorance, denial, fear and intolerance about

the disease itself. This potent combination can lead to rejection and even

aggression against people living with HIV. As a result, people with HIV have

been disowned by their families, fired from their jobs, asked to leave their

homes. They can face discrimination in receiving medical care. In extreme

cases they have even been physically attacked.

Stigma and discrimination can lead to depression, lack of self-worth and

despair for people living with HIV. But people living with the disease are

not the only ones endangered by this fear and prejudice.

Negative attitudes about HIV can create a climate in which people become

more afraid of the stigma and discrimination associated with the disease

than of the disease itself. When fear and discrimination prevail, people may

choose to ignore the possibility that they may be HIV-positive - even if

they know they have taken risks. And people may decide not to take measures

to protect themselves in fear that in doing so they could be associating

themselves with HIV. All of this helps to create an environment in which the

disease can more easily spread.

This year's World AIDS Campaign encourages both individuals and institutions

to reflect on how they respond to those living with HIV and AIDS. With

challenging posters and television images the campaign clearly shows how the

most painful symptoms of HIV and AIDS are often the reactions of others.

When someone feels safe within their own community, they are more likely to

take responsibility for their HIV status. This is why it is so important for

all of us to examine our own attitudes. We need to ask ourselves: are we

helping to create an environment where people can take responsibility for

themselves and others? Or do our attitudes contribute to an environment of

shame, fear and denial that prevents people from taking action? Only by

confronting stigma and discrimination across the world will the fight

against HIV/AIDS be won.

Live and let live. Help us fight fear, shame, ignorance and injustice

worldwide.

For more information on the World AIDS Campaign or to order materials:

wac@...

_________________________________________________________________

Is there a gadget-lover on your gift list? MSN Shopping has lined up some

good bets! http://shopping.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Muthoni,

If God already tells us what he wants in his word, to claim not to know what he wants is to ignore his word. The time to determine what God wants is not to wait for judgment day. God gives us the priviledge of getting to know him by revealing Himself to us. To claim to know him is only to take our rightful place as his children. I see no arrogance in doing so.

ine.

-----Original Message-----From: mathai@... [mailto:mathai@...]Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 2:25 PMAIDS treatments Subject: RE: homosexuality -do not close debate.

Dear Simon Maingi,

I am getting gradually fed up and irritated by your Kenyans this and Kenyans that, as if you are the voice of Kenyans. In my opinion that is first class arrogance and I would like to join Caroline here and remind you not to be so arrogant to think to know what God knows and wants.

[Guest guest]

ine,

Witch hunt and sending women into the fire was also according to Gods

words, sending Jews to the gaz chamber the same, the Jihad also. HIV

as a punishment of God. All people who claim to know Gods word. One

of the translations for the name God is: the one, who can't be known.

One believes... and there is a difference between believing and

knowing. You can be certain of your believe, you can know what you

believe, but believing and knowing is not the same.

Caroline

> <?xml version= " 1.0 " ?>

> Muthoni,

> If God already tells us what he wants in his word, to claim not to

know what

> he wants is to ignore his word. The time to determine what God

wants is not

> to wait for judgment day. God gives us the priviledge of getting to

know him

> by revealing Himself to us. To claim to know him is only to take our

> rightful place as his children. I see no arrogance in doing so.

> ine.

>

> RE: homosexuality -do not close debate.

>

>

> Dear Simon Maingi,

> I am getting gradually fed up and irritated by your Kenyans this

and Kenyans

> that, as if you are the voice of Kenyans. In my opinion that is

first class

> arrogance and I would like to join Caroline here and remind you

not to be

> so arrogant to think to know what God knows and wants.