Re: This Morning TV - thyroid

[Guest guest]

:

> >

> >

> > Can someone please explain to me how Big Pharma profit from levothyroxine

only treatment; the " NHS cost " is £4.58 for 8 weeks, 8pence a day, £30 a year!.

Peanuts in anybody's language.

>

http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/t3/t3medrefs4.php

this is why, there is lots of money to be made in heart disease and T3

deficiency is the cause of it, so they don't want to miss out on all the profits

for heart disease by allowing us to have T3.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony, I would recommend that you read the book 'Dirty

Medicine' by . You might be inclined to change your mind. I have

the book if you would like to borrow it. Just send the cost of postage in

stamps £2.80 with your address, and I will send the book to you.

Luv - Sheila

I don't buy the big Pharma thing. If big Pharma was really doing something

untoward, wouldn't they be pushing for a much lower TSH limit, e.g. 2.5 so that

more people get to be diagnosed as hypo (sub-clinically or overt). That way their

market would be expanded massively. Also, they could push for people to be

prescribed T3 or, as you say, T3/T4 and they would be keen to fund research in

that area.

As a matter of interest, a University spin-off has recently filed a patent

application for a " timed-release " T3/T4 combo but when I enquired

about it, I was told that it was way off being marketed. If big Pharma were

really interested in making big bucks out of hypothyroidism, then I'm sure they

would have snapped up the rights to a T3/T4 patent filing. Also, in terms of

patenting stuff, there would be a lot of mileage for them in synthesizing and

patenting a NDT look-alike complete with T3, T2 and T1 plus other constituents,

especially if they are able to demonstrate that T2 and/or T1 confer benefits.

For this reason, I find the medical establishment's stance very puzzling. It's

almost as if they believe they're right - but of course they're not.

[Guest guest]

You seem to forget the millions of pounds they would have to spend in research

and doing clinical trials. Not likely in this climate.

The way it works is that big pharma sell levo for pennies and charge a hell of a

lot for other drugs. The NHS agree in advance what they're spending the money

on, so many units of the expensive drugs to get the levo / statins /

anti-depressants cheap....

Glynis

> " don't buy the big Pharma thing. If big Pharma was really doing something

untoward, wouldn't they be pushing for a much lower TSH limit, e.g. 2.5 so that

more people get to be diagnosed as hypo (sub-clinically or overt). That way

their market would be expanded massively. Also, they could push for people to be

prescribed T3 or, as you say, T3/T4 and they would be keen to fund research in

that area. "

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, well I've just watched it on ITV player today wednesday.....Val

>

> Isn't it strange, when we had our article published in the Mail on Sunday,

> that particular article didn't get put on-line, and now this programme we

> can't get on the ITV iplayer. Is this being done on purpose. Do I smell a

> conspiracy????

>

> Luv - Sheila

>

> JOT - It doesn`t seem to be on the ITV iplayer to watch again. It may get

> put up on Youtube eventually.

>

> Jane

>

[Guest guest]

It may be more to do with protecting a not always effective treatment

(thyroxine), and linked to protecting a not very effective test (TSH).

Would doctors bother ordering the (very profitable) TSH test if patients were

taking T3-containing medication? They would probably have to order Free T4 and

Free T3 tests instead. Once it was well known that the TSH test didn't give the

whole picture, initial diagnosis would probably not depend on TSH either.

Miriam

> Can someone please explain to me how Big Pharma profit from levothyroxine only

treatment; the " NHS cost " is £4.58 for 8 weeks, 8pence a day, £30 a year!.

Peanuts in anybody's language.

[Guest guest]

I know, the link came after I made my protestations and

conspiracy theory Val.

Luv - Sheila

Hi, well I've just watched it on ITV player

today wednesday.....Val

>

> Isn't it strange, when we had our article published in the Mail on Sunday,

> that particular article didn't get put on-line, and now this programme we

> can't get on the ITV iplayer. Is this being done on purpose. Do I smell a

> conspiracy????

>

_,___

[Guest guest]

>

> You seem to forget the millions of pounds they would have to spend

>in research and doing clinical trials. Not likely in this climate.

I did a patent search for triiodothyronine (T3), and found 4 dated 2011, 3 dated

2010, 1 in 2009, of which one was certainly owned by a proper big Pharma

company.

Given the millions of potential users worlwide, yes it's well worth the while of

a Pharma to develop it, if they believe the doctors will be amenable to

prescribing it. I imagine many GPs are put off at the moment because of the

(somewhat deserved) bad press that Armour has got, and the way an animal product

just doesn't sound " medical " enough for doctors (not to mention the concerns

about BSE and so on). But give the poor dears a proper " drug " with NICE

approval and they'll be all for it.

Actually I just found a figure saying Levo is a $1Billion market. So if you

managed to get an improved drug T3/T4, you could maybe, I don't know, charge £10

a month, (as opposed to the current £2odd), and you would make, wow, $3Bn extra.

Sounds worthwhile to me.

> The way it works is that big pharma sell levo for pennies and

>charge a hell of a lot for other drugs.

I don't think anyone has a patent on levothyroxine (though there are some about

better ways to make it), so I don't believe that Big Pharma only offer it

cheaply as some sort of sweetener for the expensive drugs. Mine is a generic

certainly (made by little Pharma)

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi, It doesn't appear until the next day. It is on Iplayer now.

Margaret

>

>

>

> Does anyone have the link so I could watch too?

>

> Thanks a bunch.

>

> Cheers,

> JOT

>

[Guest guest]

This is about low T3 levels, which isn't the case for most people here (Sheila

please correct me). The main point of this group is people's levels are

" normal " but they don't feel well

Steve

>

> http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/t3/t3medrefs4.php

>

> this is why, there is lots of money to be made in heart disease and T3

deficiency is the cause of it, so they don't want to miss out on all the profits

for heart disease by allowing us to have T3.

>

[Guest guest]

I have low T3 (below range) with low TSH.LilianOn 26 October 2011 19:47, Steve <steve@...> wrote:

 

This is about low T3 levels, which isn't the case for most people here (Sheila please correct me). The main point of this group is people's levels are " normal " but they don't feel well

Steve

[Guest guest]

>

> Why would the pharmaceutical companies spend hundreds of thousands

>of pounds trying to get a medication that gets people well enough

>not to need any of their other products.

Well, yes I suppose, very evil, has anyone in Pharma ever whistleblown(?) about

this.

>....And, at the same time (because T4/T3 is effective) lose out on

>selling other stuff they make like Statins, anti depressants etc.

Blimey they sell statins, antidepressants to everyone, you don't need thyroid

disease to get them prescribed.

> Also NICE put a stop to any one product if it is too expensive, but

>are happy to allow someone to have the same amount of money spent on

>several different pills for their condition.

What information do you have which tells you that, it seems unlikely?

> So if they put the price of T4/T3 up too high NICE would stop them > selling

it anyway,

Yes but it's pretty much the cheapest treatment going. My carbimazole costs the

NHS about £10 per month. If google is right the regular FT3 FT4 TSH test is a

bargain £3, a GP visit is £30. Moneywise it's a no-brainer for the NHS (if it

works of course).

I think that the development cost won't be all that much, because both T3 and T4

are deemed essentially safe already

Steve

[Guest guest]

Developing new drugs costs millions of pounds. The profit from selling new drugs

(that work!) is in the hundreds or thousands of millions of pounds. Consider the

ratios there, regardless of any other influences that the pharma companies may

have.

To look at the example of indigestion... Ranitidine was a wonder-drug when it

was first available (I'd guess early 1980s). Now it has been largely surpassed

by Omeprazole. There seems to be limited evidence that Omeprazole is more

effective than Ranitidine in most " mild " cases, but it is more expensive because

it is still newer and not out of patent. But GPs (including my own GP) still

prescribe Omeprazole rather than Ranitidine, and they consider it more

effective.

There is no profit to be made in drug trials comparing T3 to T4, Natural Thyroid

to T4 or any other combination. The " drugs " (hormones!) being considered are not

under patent and therefore there is no profit to be made from them. I don't

doubt that the people not doing well on T4 could be entered into a trial

comparing mixed T3/T4 therapy vs T4 alone, and it would have positive results,

but if the Gaxo-kline-Beecham-Wellcome-Monopoly isn't going to profit, then

it isn't going to happen!

The only way that a proper (randomised control, double-blind, peer-reviewed!)

study will take place is if a charitable organisation or other interested party

can fund it. And that is a lot of funding to ask for, considering that most

hypothyroid patients do OK on Thyroxine, and increasing the numbers of

Hypothyroid diagnoses would only cost the NHS more money.

There have been articles this week about Propanolol being useful in lady cancer

(I can't remember which one), and Omega 3 in Prostate cancer... the funding for

the research is from charities rather than Pharma as there is no profit in

Propanolol or Omega 3. They are not new, patented drugs.

Maybe I'm paranoid, and the whole world actually does operate to keep as many

people as possible well. Or maybe I'm cynical, and right. Either way, the system

isn't going to change unless it is forced to do so, probably by central

government. Politics and health care... at least we aren't in America!

</ends ramble>

[Guest guest]

Given the millions of potential users worlwide,

yes it's well worth the while of a Pharma to develop it, if they believe the

doctors will be amenable to prescribing it. I imagine many GPs are put off at

the moment because of the (somewhat deserved) bad press that Armour has got,

and the way an animal product just doesn't sound " medical " enough for

doctors (not to mention the concerns about BSE and so on). But give the poor

dears a proper " drug " with NICE approval and they'll be all for it.

I don't understand Steve. Why do you state that Armour Thyroid

got " somewhat deserved bad press " ? Can you go into detail about why

it was " deserved " ?

Actually I just found a figure saying Levo is a $1Billion market. So if you

managed to get an improved drug T3/T4, you could maybe, I don't know, charge

£10 a month, (as opposed to the current £2odd), and you would make, wow, $3Bn

extra. Sounds worthwhile to me.

If only life was as simple Steve and if only we were not so

innocent.

I don't think anyone has a patent on levothyroxine (though there are some about

better ways to make it), so I don't believe that Big Pharma only offer it

cheaply as some sort of sweetener for the expensive drugs. Mine is a generic

certainly (made by little Pharma)

Yes, there is a Patent on Levothyroxine - Patent

6491946 http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/1532841/levothyroxine_sodium_key_patent_spc_and_data

or just google 'patent levothyroxine' - you get loads of info. up.

Luv - Sheila

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi big pharma makes a lot of money from many drugs, not a great amount from levo, but they would not make any from it if we were all on natural thyroid.! angel.

[Guest guest]

Yes but it's not a new drug, the safety profile is already known

What someone could do is develop a combined formulation, slow release, patent it

perhaps, do some trials on that and then get it licensed (as was done with

melatonin a few years ago). Even if not patentable the first to market would

get a lead of, what, 2 years, before anyone else can copy it and do another set

of trials and given a catchy name they would stand to become the known name

(think hoover), the one that gets written on the prescription, for some years

beyond that.

As another poster said a university spinoff is doing something close to that

now.

I agree the system stinks, it is just barmy that unpatentable but

probably/possibly useful drugs don't get worked on.

The good news, clinicaltrials shows over 100 studies including T3 are slated to

take place soon (only a handful for us specifically though).

Steve

>

> Developing new drugs costs millions of pounds. The profit from selling new

drugs (that work!) is in the hundreds or thousands of millions of pounds.

Consider the ratios there, regardless of any other influences that the pharma

companies may have.

>

>

> </ends ramble>

[Guest guest]

" somewhat

> deserved bad press " ? Can you go into detail about why it was > " deserved " ?

Armour's bad press, well Forest really. Changing the formulation without

telling anyone is sufficient on its own, this recent thing about maybe stopping

supplies to Europe,

> google 'patent levothyroxine' - you get loads of

> info. up.

like I said they are about ways to make it, longer shelf life that sort of

thing. T4 has been known since (1927 I think). I think that a pharma could

make it and sell it without paying patent fees to anyone.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Anythink which has the same chemical composition of a 'natural' formulae cannot be patented and so can be made up by the appropriate chemist. When drug companies patent a drug such as T4 what they have done inorder to be able to patent it is to CHANGE the composition of the natural formulae; so their 'drug' is different to the natural formulae. The problem with this is that the 'drug' maynot work in exactly the same way as the natural formulae. This is likely the problem with T4 (levo - drug) and why many people dont experience the good relief of the their symptoms, as those taking NDT.

Changing the formulation without telling anyone is sufficient on its own, this recent thing about maybe stopping supplies to Europe, like I said they are about ways to make it, longer shelf life that sort of thing. T4 has been known since (1927 I think). I think that a pharma could make it and sell it without paying patent fees to anyone.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sally

Are you sure that is correct? I have read that levothyroxine is bioidentical to

human t4 and that the reasons some poeple don't do so well on is because of one

or more of the many that Sheila quite often lists ?

chris

>This is likely the problem with T4 (levo - drug) and why many people dont

experience the good relief of the their symptoms, as those taking NDT.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris

Sally is likely correct. I keep a load of information and

sometimes never refer to it again, or I actually forget to refer to it, but

here is something I kept from years back that should be thought about. It was a

message posted by somebody else - and I think it was posted on another forum.

PURITY – SYNTHETICS – V

– NDT

I was reading and wondering about the " purity " of synthetic thyroid

meds. Dr. Lowe comments that Cynomel was purer than Cytomel.

Well, a member has reported that her mother took a new pure Ibuprofen, an

enantiomer of the usually racemic Ibuprofen, a pure Dexibuprofen.

This member looked it up on the Internet, and lo and behold began to understand

why Armour may be purer than the synthethics.

You know that all natural compounds are absolutely pure because they are made

by enzymes. They are ‘dex’ or ‘levo’ if they are

chiral. Factory-made medicines are usually racemic, a mixture of

‘dex’ and ‘levo’

Often, but not always, there is a huge difference between ‘dex’-and

‘levo’ substances.

Now they are trying to make levothyroxine sodium and the patients report of

differences between brands, and that Armour works better for some patients.

That is the reason that all new pharmaceutical applications must have a chapter

on the choice of enantiomers and if the substance is racemic, why this

application has been chosen.

So the reason that Armour works better may be that it is pure!

And that if there had been an application for levothyroxine sodium or

liothyronine now they would have to explain the purity or lack thereof!

Hi Sally

Are you sure that is correct? I have read that levothyroxine is bioidentical to

human t4 and that the reasons some poeple don't do so well on is because of one

or more of the many that Sheila quite often lists ?

chris

>This is likely the problem with T4 (levo - drug) and why many people dont

experience the good relief of the their symptoms, as those taking NDT.

>

[Guest guest]

" Anythink which has the same chemical composition of a 'natural' formulae cannot

be patented and so can be made up by the appropriate chemist. ***When drug

companies patent a drug such as **T4** what they have done inorder to be able to

patent it is to CHANGE the composition of the natural formulae***; so their

'drug' is different to the natural formulae. The problem with this is that the

'drug' maynot work in exactly the same way as the natural formulae. This is

likely the problem with T4 (levo - drug) and why many people dont experience the

good relief of the their symptoms, as those taking NDT. "

Hello Sheila

I think these are two different issues though:

Sally is saying they change the formula of T4 to be *purposefully* different

from the naturally occuring T4 so they can patent it and this is why it doesn't

always work well in people. Whereas the information from Dr Lowe seems to say

that no man made drug can be as pure as a naturally made drug (presumably

despite best efforts)? These are two different issues?

I am saying something else - that T4 is T4. It's supposed to be biodentical, it

is not intentionally molecularly different so it can be patented (unlike say

progestins). So, goldshield levothyroxine sodium is supposed to be the same as

synthroid levothyroxine sodium and both of these are supposed to be bioidentical

to our own T4?

Does that make sense?

chris

>

> Now they are trying to make levothyroxine sodium and the patients report of

> differences between brands, and that Armour works better for some patients.

[Guest guest]

>>Well, yes I suppose, very evil, has anyone in Pharma ever whistleblown(?) about this.<<

As they always shoot the messenger rather than look at the message I should imagine most are reluctant to. But there have been one or two in the past "Ellen Brokovitch" (or something like that) was one I believe. On TV they have exposed how some whistleblowers have been treated. I recall a nurse who was very badly treated, but even after the publicity, she never got another job.>>>Blimey they sell statins, antidepressants to everyone, you don't need thyroid disease to get them prescribed. <<<<

Undiagnosed hypothyroidism increases cholesterol and makes one depressed. A very good reason discouraging diagnosis. They might try and sell statins to everyone but if your cholesterol isn't high and you are not depressed there is no reason for you to agree to take it.

>>>What information do you have which tells you that, it seems unlikely?<<<

My brother in law is a perfect example. He has had Alzheimers for a few years now (and is still quite young). There is a drug called Aricept which, although not curing, it helps to slow the process, but it has to be taken in the early stages. As it was expensive NICE would not let it be prescribed until the patient was in the late middle stages. So my brother in law didn't get it. However, he was given umpteen other medicines.

Eventually NICE changed its policy (under pressure from public) to give it in the earlier stages, but it was too late for him he had already progressed. There is also a cancer drug NICE has not allowed doctors to prescribe because of the cost as it only prolongs life for another six months, so is not cost effective. I am sure there are plenty more but those are the two I know about definitely.

>>>Yes but it's pretty much the cheapest treatment going. My carbimazole costs the NHS about £10 per month. If google is right the regular FT3 FT4 TSH test is a bargain £3, a GP visit is £30. Moneywise it's a no-brainer for the NHS (if it works of course). <<<<

If the tests are so cheap why aren't they all being done, that alone is suspicious. On the tests the NHS did on me I was deemed OK and I should be taking anti depressants, statins, pills for my stomach, pills for the pains, pills for this and pills for that. When I had a full thyroid test done (privately) it showed that it was my thyroid which was the problem. So I now have T4 and T3. No statins, no anti depressants, no need for stomach pills, no need for painkillers, or any of the others.

>>>I think that the development cost won't be all that much, because both T3 and T4 are deemed essentially safe already<<<

Well to listen to the GPs and endos you would not think so. If they thought it safe then it is even more suspicious as to why they will not prescribe it. Why will they not prescribe thyroxine until the TSH is 10 when other countries have lowered their TSH. Putting up to 10 means far more people in the net for prescribing anti depressants, statins, pain killers etc. etc.

If the proper tests were done, if doctors prescribed the correct dosage, and big pharma were not influencing anyone at all, there would be no need for TPA.Lilian

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[Guest guest]

Who are you responding to here Lilian???

Luv - Sheila

>>>Yes but it's pretty much the cheapest treatment going. My

carbimazole costs the NHS about £10 per month. If google is right the regular

FT3 FT4 TSH test is a bargain £3, a GP visit is £30. Moneywise it's a

no-brainer for the NHS (if it works of course). <<<<

If the tests are so cheap why aren't they all being done, that

alone is suspicious. On the tests the NHS did on me I was

deemed OK and I should be taking anti depressants, statins, pills for my

stomach, pills for the pains, pills for this and pills for

that. When I had a full thyroid test done (privately)

it showed that it was my thyroid which was the problem. So I now

have T4 and T3. No statins, no anti depressants, no need for

stomach pills, no need for painkillers, or any of the others.

,_._,___

[Guest guest]

Steve. But it was one he wrote, in reply to mine a few weeks ago.

Lilian

Who are you responding to here Lilian???

Luv - Sheila