Re: Information regarding night time dosing.

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve

that is interesting.... do you think that ties in with what says about

taking T3 very early in the morning? And do you think that might be why some

people report doing better when they take thyroid at night, not the morning?

chris

>

> Sorry if this has been posted before, but i found it quite intereasting in

explaining why and how thyroid levels should be the highest during the night.

>

[Guest guest]

Yeh i would say it tie's in exactly with the method pauls says about early

morning T3 dosing.

Now this a long shot but maybe someone who is boarderline hypo or has low

adrenal reserve, maybe all they would need would be 25mcg of T3 at night (4-5am)

and then there body may be supported enough ?

I think that also is exactly why people feel better with night time dose's, you

just have to be carefull not to take too much (then you cant sleep)

I'm also thinking of trying the method whilst still on adrenal support, but in

the hope i could stop it within a few days like Sue did, i know this is

dangerous and not reccommended but being on all this adrenal support is sending

me a bit backwards (due to blood sugars) so im most probably willing to take the

risk.

Steve

>

> Hi Steve

>

> that is interesting.... do you think that ties in with what says about

taking T3 very early in the morning? And do you think that might be why some

people report doing better when they take thyroid at night, not the morning?

>

> chris

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve

I may be in a similar position - I take T3 only, plus, at the moment,

prednisolone. Do we know what the dangers are of 's method whilst still on

adrenal support? I don't know if this has been covered in earlier posts,

although I have tried to read them all.

Thank you, Caron

>

> Yeh i would say it tie's in exactly with the method pauls says about

early morning T3 dosing.>

[Guest guest]

Overdosing and crashing the adrenals are two of the things im thinking, if your

adrenals start to work and then you take a dose of Hc to surpress your adrenals

that cannont be good at all.

And if your adrenals start to work and you stop all your adrenal support, this

could cause major adrenal crash if your body isnt ready to cope without adrenal

support, but a the same time risk of overdosing. This is just what i have been

thinking maybe there are oher reasons its dangerous.

Steve

>

>

> Hi Steve

>

> I may be in a similar position - I take T3 only, plus, at the moment,

prednisolone. Do we know what the dangers are of 's method whilst still on

adrenal support? I don't know if this has been covered in earlier posts,

although I have tried to read them all.

>

> Thank you, Caron

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your reply, Steve, which makes sense.

Best wishes, Caron

>

> Overdosing and crashing the adrenals are two of the things im thinking

[Guest guest]

OK guys I'm going to do this once ONLY.

If you cut this out and keep it you can post it again when it is relevant.

My method of using T3 in the morning is ONLY applicable to people who are using

T3 AND those who DON'T have a SERIOUS ADRENAL ISSUE which requires LIFELONG

adrenal hormones, e.g. 's disease, hypopituitarism.

I have no knowledge or experience of how to apply this technique when T4 is

being used - someone else would have to investigate this.

I have known for years, from old endocrinology books, that:

a) TSH peaks around midnight.

T4 follows this and peaks in the early hours of the night.

c) Cortisol also has a circadian rhythm with the majority of the days cortisol

being made in the last four hours of sleep - typically 4:00 am to 8:00 am. The

majority is true and it also applies to many of the other adrenal hormones.

d) For men testosterone production also matches the cortisol production period

closely.

e) The adrenals produce getting on for THREE DOZEN hormones. Don't ever expect

to feel totally normal on HC - EVER. HC is talked about as a temporary measure

to overcome adrenal fatigue but many people are left stuck on it for years.

I guessed about 15 years ago that T3 would likely peak in the night following

T4.

I knew that for most T3 users their T3 would be at its lowest ebb just when the

adrenals had to work at there hardest.

It is not difficult to put all this together and work out that for people with

low adrenal output on T3 that taking T3 sometime in what I term the 'main

cortisol production window' (4:00 am to 8:00 am) might be beneficial.

I got the approval from my GP and we did a ton of tests using the 24 hour

urinary cortisol test (far more reliable if you are on T3 than a saliva test -

which in my opinion for T3 users isn't worth the paper it is written on. There

are reasons for this which I'm not going to go into here).

We tested the first T3 dose from 4:00 am through to 8:00am and waited around 4-6

weeks after each Timing change to run the cortisol test. My cortisol was above

the top of the normal range with a T3 dose at 4:00am, i.e. it was too high.

Whereas, at 8:00 am it was at the lowest part of the range. I had been passing

out with low BP and adrenal problems prior to this - but I had not felt good on

HC or prednisolone and wanted to get off them.

I settled on 4:30 - 5:00 am and have never looked back. My energy is fine and

I've had no thyroid or adrenal problems for years.

That is the background.

Is it dangerous was one question I believe. NO is the answer as long as you

don't have a NEED for adrenal hormones TO KEEP YOU ALIVE. People with 's

disease or removed adrenal glands or hypopituitarism would be mad to stop taking

adrenal hormones of course.

For the majority of people who just have adrenal fatigue there is some risk that

they will feel temporarily more unwell but the gain is enormous if the T3 dose

works. It provides working adrenal glands that give you all the hormones you

need.

If you are on T3 the adrenals are unlikely to ever spring back into life on

their own are they if the T3 level is low when they are trying to do their work.

The other thing that factors into all of this is the MYTH that we need to be

taking adrenal hormones to get our thyroid hormone into our cells. This isn't

true - its been spread around the web so much that even doctors believe it in

some cases - although my own endo denied this years ago.

Cortisol is needed to keep sugar metabolism working correctly and allow insulin

to take glucose into the cells. Glucose is needed for the mitochondria to

produce ATP (cellular energy). BUT cortisol isn't needed to get the T3 into the

cells - that's plain rubbish.

I'm not even sure what overdosing and crashing the adrenals actually means. The

biggest issue for most people on T3 with the adrenals is that they are just

starved on T3 - how can they work properly like that - EVER?

I think this covers it all.

All of this and more (this is just a tiny fraction) will be in the book in a few

months.

>

> Thank you for your reply, Steve, which makes sense.

>

[Guest guest]

, you ask what an adrenal crash is. I don't have the expertise to explain in depth but I can certainly tell you what the effect is having had many myself over the past two years or so. A minor crash resembles something like flu but without the cold - you're very tired, can't get out of bed, ache, etc, etc. A more serious 'crash' leaves you feeling nauseous, vomitting, unable to walk, severe back pains and effects your kidneys - I was admitted to a & e with what was initially diagnosed as kidney problems which later turned out to be in fact adrenals. So I hope you see that the impact of adrenal problems - especially when left undiagnosed - are severe and can leave you almost completely disabled. Yes, it does help to get T3 right but don't underestimate the impact of adrenal issues.All best, Alison> >>

[Guest guest]

I also forgot to mention that some people on T3 only DO NOT NEED THIS. I'd say

there are fairly decent numbers of T3 users who don't need it and fairly decent

numbers that do. It may not be 50:50 but there are decent numbers of both.

One of the advantages of stopping the adrenal hormones is that a proper 24 hour

urinary cortisol test may be done after a couple of weeks and it is then

possible to see exactly how low the total cortisol output actually is. Then as

the first T3 divided dose is gradually moved earlier (6:30 am perhaps to begin

with, then in half hour changes every month or so) another cortisol test can be

done when symptoms improve to verify that the cortisol has actually been

adjusted.

I do know people who don't need T3 prior to 8:00 am though and definitely don't

have adrenal issues.

People on T3 that already have symptoms of adrenal fatigue or are taking HC or

adrenal glandulars are likely to need this approach if they ever want to come

off the adrenal hormones. The exception to this would be if the T3 dosage has

not been fully adjusted or there are other issues that are yet to be addressed,

e.g. blood sugar issues.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Alison,

You were diagnosed by an endocrinologist right?

Do you have 's disease?

If not then sure low adrenal output can make you feel ill - I am not suggesting

taking adrenal hormones away for weeks on end. I'm suggesting that for those

people on T3 that have adrenal fatigue but not 's disease then the only

way to get the adrenals going again is to use the method I've suggested and to

do that means stopping the adrenal hormones. After the T3 has been titrated as

much as possible any remaining adrenal deficit can be made up with adrenal

hormones - but this is likely to be at a lot lower levels than previously.

The adrenal 'crash' as you describe it could also be entirely explained by

adrenals that aren't allowed to produce the bulk of their production during the

early hours of the morning - if you are on T3 and NOT using the method I'm

talking about.

Anyway, it is up to the individual and their own doctor. This is certainly an

option for some people who wish to see if they can get healthier using as much

of their own adrenal production as possible - which may given them many more

hormones than are possible otherwise.

You could also compromise and slowly reduce the adrenal hormones as you titrate

the T3 - it isn't as clean a method but it would avoid a serious 'crash' for

those that feel they are likely to suffer one.

Cheers,

>

> , you ask what an adrenal crash is. I don't have the expertise to

[Guest guest]

I've hand held people many times through this now and not seen any issues at

all.

Only good results.

The alternative is to do nothing and be continually stuck on adrenal meds for

years and years in many cases.

If people are frightened then they can slowly reduce the adrenal hormones during

the phase of slowly altering the T3 dose.

I usually advise a slow movement of the first T3 dose in half hour adjustments

starting at 7:00 am or 6:30 then to 6:00 am over a period of weeks. It is slow

to avoid many of the issues you are concerned about.

I have no idea why you would assume it was dangerous. It is more dangerous to be

stuck for years with inadequate thyroid hormone levels and low adrenals.

Clearly, if anyone is totally 100% well on their current meds (even if this

includes adrenal hormones) then why change it. Most aren't though and I doubt

you are if you are on them.

The objective with this approach (which you don't know all the details about

because they are in the book) is to slowly adjust the T3 to gradually bring the

adrenals back on line. Clearly, this is best done in the absence of adrenal

hormones. But it doesn't have to be - it may be more difficult to work out what

is happening if adrenal hormones are still being taken.

In the end you can choose to ignore this and go back to assuming that HC etc. is

perfectly safe and a good option for the long term and that this is dangerous.

It is always up to the individual to make their own mind up.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the informative post paul could you explain for us please why you

think its dangerous to be on adrenal support while trying your method, but with

the intention of stopping the adrenal support within the first few days once you

feel your adrenals are supported like sue did.

Alsion explained what i mean with crashing and by overdosing i mean taking " too

much " hc while your body is producing some also.

Steve

>

>

> If you cut this out and keep it you can post it again when it is relevant.

[Guest guest]

I have said that it is far better to do it that way if the adrenals are not

fundamentally damaged ('s , hypopituitarism, tumours etc). The reason

being is that it is possible to run tests to see the actual adrenal performance

and know exactly how they are behaving. Then the T3 can be slowly adjusted and

tests run again when necessary. It is a much cleaner way to do it and avoids

confusing results which might result in bad conclusions being drawn. The bad

conclusions might lead to poor long term choices.

A lot of issues go away as soon as the T3 is used right.

One of the issues here is that most of the advice that people are getting about

using T3 is not good and so the adrenals aren't working right anyway. I'm

working on the basis that my entire protocol is being used and that the adrenals

aren't nearly in as bad a state.

There has also been a lot of brain washing going on over the years. People are

scared that their adrenal glands have shrivelled away to the size of grains of

salt. A lot of this is just tosh frankly and it is no surprise that a lot of

endos have no time for these veiw points. Why do you think that most people pass

Synacthen tests? It isn't because the test is bad or that the endos are

unsympathetic b*****s it is that the Synacthen test actually drives the adrenals

and you are seeing that they can be made to work pretty damned hard given half a

chance.

The issue is usually the wrong thyroid hormone or the wrong titration. Can

people go into an 'adrenal crash' if thyroid meds are removed - yes - but it

would be very unusual for that to occur if decent doses of T3 are in place. If

this happened or there was a risk of it then sure the adrenal hormones could be

kept in place but they'd have to be reduced in order to complete working out the

timing and size of the T3 doses. It is inefficient and usually unnecessary. But

yes it could be done if someone was particularly fearful.

As I've said before my adrenals were bad and I was passing out most days due to

low BP - yes I felt bad but I wasn't dying - why? I didn't have 's

disease. These symptoms are manageable for a short period if there is no severe

adrenal issue. My adrenals picked up within a couple of days of the right dose -

yes two days or so before I knew I felt better. Most people respond fast.

You wouldn't overdose on double the dose of HC for a few days anyway. You are

worrying too much. I'm not talking about a long time here - not the times that

most people have been stuck on HC or adrenal glandulars.

Anyway, believe it or not. It's up to you. My goal is to publish the book. I am

doing it to help people and not make money. I don't expect to make money out of

it.

I hope not to have to do any forum work in the future and I intend to spend less

time working directly with patients. I have worked with around 40 people over

about five years in order to be sure I understood the methods I've used. I've

only had one person that didn't get well. The rest have either got 100% well or,

in the case of recent ones, are still getting there. the one person I couldn't

help apparently has early diabetes and was so low in cellular glucose that the

mitochondria couldn't work properly. I know this works. But my main priority is

to get the book out and be done with it.

What you decide to do is up to you.

My arguments are weighted up against a decade or two of misinformation and spin

regarding adrenals and regarding how to use T3 properly. Some people won't

believe it regardless of what I say.

I can't say any more on this topic really.

>

> Thanks for the informative post paul could you explain for us please why you

think its

[Guest guest]

Thank you paul for all the info appreciated. All the best and i look forward to

your book.

Steve

>

>

> I've hand held people many times through this now and not seen any issues at

all.

>

> Only good results.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Alison

Have you been tested at the hospital to see whether you are

suffering with 's Disease? See http://www.addisons.org.uk/info/addisons/page1.html

Symptoms: ’s disease is not usually

apparent until over 90% of the adrenal cortex has been destroyed, so that very

little adrenal capacity is left. This can take months to years and is known as

primary adrenal insufficiency. Symptoms of the disease, once advanced, can

include severe fatigue and weakness, loss of weight, increased pigmentation of

the skin, faintness and low blood pressure, nausea, vomiting, salt cravings and

painful muscles and joints. Because of the rather non-specific nature of these

symptoms and their slow progression, they are often missed or ignored until,

for example, a relatively minor infection leads to an abnormally long

convalescence which prompts an investigation. Frequently, it is not until a

crisis is precipitated that attention is turned to the adrenals.

Secondary failure: Secondary adrenal

insufficiency is sometimes described as “’s”, although

it has a very different cause. It mostly occurs when a pituitary tumour (such

as an adenoma) forms, although autoimmune destruction of the pituitary gland is

also known. In secondary adrenal insufficiency, the pituitary gland no longer

triggers the adrenals to produce cortisol, and DHEA production is also believed

to decline. In most cases of secondary adrenal insufficiency, however,

aldosterone is still produced, as its production is stimulated by other

hormonal regulatory systems. The pituitary hormone which triggers

cortisol production is called ACTH; it is responsible for the extra

pigmentation found in primary ’s. People with secondary

adrenal failure do not experience the extra pigmentation found in primary

’s, because their ACTH levels are declining.

Long term use of high doses of steroid drugs to treat other

illnesses (for example high–dose prednisone for bowel disease or asthma)

can also cause temporary or permanent loss of adrenal function. This is

often referred to as secondary adrenal suppression.

Until the development of steroid medication in the late 1940s,

the outcome of adrenal disease was invariably fatal. With the development

of modern steroid medications, individuals with ’s disease can

expect to have a fairly normal life span, provided they manage their daily

medication sensibly. People with ’s must always be aware of

their own health and ready to increase their dosage if they get sick or are

seriously injured.

Luv - Sheila

,

you ask what an adrenal crash is. I don't have the expertise to explain in

depth but I can certainly tell you what the effect is having had many myself

over the past two years or so. A minor crash resembles something like flu but

without the cold - you're very tired, can't get out of bed, ache, etc, etc. A

more serious 'crash' leaves you feeling nauseous, vomitting, unable to walk,

severe back pains and effects your kidneys - I was admitted to a & e with

what was initially diagnosed as kidney problems which later turned out to be in

fact adrenals. So I hope you see that the impact of adrenal problems - especially

when left undiagnosed - are severe and can leave you almost completely

disabled. Yes, it does help to get T3 right but don't underestimate the impact

of adrenal issues.

All

best, Alison

> >

>

[Guest guest]

FYI,

Based on all of this discussion I have changed the text surrounding the use of

this method to make it very clear that the stopping of adrenal hormones prior to

this T3 titration is not mandatory. I still believe that it is sensible to cease

their use because it allows clarity on what is happening and avoids confusing

results because the consequences of the T3 titration can be viewed completely

without the effects of the adrenal hormones in the way. However, I have made it

very clear that those who have a serious adrenal issue who can't stop the meds

shouldn't stop them AND those who are advised not to stop them don't have to but

they should expect the potential for more confusing results and the possibility

that they may be left still taking them when the process completes. I have also

added the possibility of someone reducing the adrenal meds slowly as the first

T3 dose is moved into the 'main cortisol production window'.

Let me be clear - I still think it is unnecessary for the majority of people to

continue with any adrenal support during proper T3 titration (as defined in my

book - not some of the low doses of T3 that I know many people are often given).

However, I have taken on board the concerns expressed here and have made the

process less rigid for those few that may require it.

Thanks for the discussion - it was interesting.

>

> Thank you paul for all the info appreciated. All the best and i look forward

to your book.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks as always for the useful information Sheila. I shall hang onto it for when I next see my GP. And yes I have had a short synacthen test - but it was pretty useless to be honest.I'm really just trying to get across how severe and disabling adrenal problems can be - it's tragic that they are not recognised more. If they were I wouldn't be in the state I am now. However I am progressing slowly now that I am on the right medication. It should also be recognised that it is especially dangerous to stop adrenal support medication without careful supervision or over too short a timescale!! Oh dear.Have a good day. Best wishes, Alison

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thanks for the wonderful expination of your T3 method.

I am waiting patiently for the book but have just one question.

How much of your T3 do you take as an early dose?

I am currently on 150mcg T3 (cut down by 12.5mcg 8 days ago just starting to

feel cold and more pain so gone back up)

Thanks

Caroline

>

> OK guys I'm going to do this once ONLY.

>

> If you cut this out and keep it you can post it again when it is relevant.

>

>

[Guest guest]

What really worries me is that doctors are actually ALLOWING

their patients to suffer with 's Disease because they are refusing to

accept low adrenal reserve or adrenal fatigue and therefore refusing to treat

it. The stages leading up to 's should be recognised, but doctors are

failing to do this. I don't know who is teaching them these days.

Luv - Sheila

Thanks

as always for the useful information Sheila. I shall hang onto it for when I

next see my GP. And yes I have had a short synacthen test - but it was pretty

useless to be honest.

I'm

really just trying to get across how severe and disabling adrenal problems can

be - it's tragic that they are not recognised more. If they were I wouldn't be

in the state I am now. However I am progressing slowly now that I am on the

right medication. It should also be recognised that it is especially dangerous to

stop adrenal support medication without careful supervision or over too short a

timescale!! Oh dear.

[Guest guest]

Sheila i have thought something similar myself a few times. But one thing i did

wonder would be how could they monitor and treat low adrenal reserve because im

pretty sure putting people on cortisol for low adrenal reserve would course more

problems than fixing. (minerals and vitamins just wasnt enough for me)

Now if there was just one cause of low adrenal reserver (low thyroid) then it

would be a different story, but as we know there are many.

I am in now way suggesting the doctors are right, but more so open to the

discussion how it (low adrenal reserve) could be monitored and treated.

Steve

>

> What really worries me is that doctors are actually ALLOWING their patients

> to suffer with 's Disease because they are refusing to accept low

> adrenal reserve or adrenal fatigue and therefore refusing to treat it.

[Guest guest]

Actually, this things I've discussed here are only a small fraction of the

process that I developed to make myself well. I have extended and generalised

the process over the past five years or so by aiding others and their doctors in

their own journeys to good health. So, it isn't specific to my needs now.

I only need 50 mcg per day of T3. I take 20 at 4:30 am, 20 @ 2:00 pm and 10 at

6:00 pm.

Everyone has different needs depending on the nature of their own impaired

cellular response to thyroid hormone. I know of people on less than me and many

on a lot more.

The titration of the doses - the numbers, the sizes and the timings also is best

tailored to meet the individual needs. The reason for this is that you want 100%

health at all times but no evidence of tissue over-stimulation by T3 at any

time. Creating a working dosage is hard slog. This is why T3 is really a last

resort treatment when T4, T4/T3 has failed. It is also why people should explore

all avenues including missing nutrients, digestive issues, diet and blood sugar

first.

Good luck.

>

[Guest guest]

I tried massive amounts of Vit C and multi vit/mineral. Along with quite a high

dose of adrenal glandular (adrenal cortex extract) and i can honestly say i

NEVER once ever felt any improvement. (i know now i had ALOT of things going on;

rock bottom iron, poor adrenal reserve, low thyroid, mercury poisoning,

systematic candida)

Within about half an hour of taking HC i felt like a new person, its a tricky

one as according to me saliva results i was only just under range for each

range.

There was a nutritionist who tried to " treat " me for low adrenal reserve the

only thing they wanted me to add thats not been mentioned was liquore root. So

there are people out there who aim to treat low adrenal reserve without the use

of HC but im afraid there not doctors.

Steve

>

> They could test for low adrenal reserve using a 24 hour salivary adrenal

[Guest guest]

Thanks

>

> I only need 50 mcg per day of T3. I take 20 at 4:30 am, 20 @ 2:00 pm and 10 at

6:00 pm.

>