Vit C

May 7, 2006

I was giving him Kirkmans 250mg, how do I know he needs it though? He can wolf down plate after plate of leafy green veg and no longer has gloopy BM's could he not be absorbing as much as he needs?

In the early days he has so much diahrea and self restricting diet that he was malnourished and needed everything supplementing but I am wondering as his gut has healed so much maybe he doesen't need so many anymore.

Vicky

May 7, 2006

I was giving him Kirkmans 250mg, how do I know he needs it though? He can wolf down plate after plate of leafy green veg and no longer has gloopy BM's could he not be absorbing as much as he needs?

In the early days he has so much diahrea and self restricting diet that he was malnourished and needed everything supplementing but I am wondering as his gut has healed so much maybe he doesen't need so many anymore.

Vicky

May 7, 2006

In a message dated 07/05/2006 21:09:24 GMT Daylight Time, MaddiganV@... writes:

In the early days he has so much diahrea and self restricting diet that he was malnourished and needed everything supplementing but I am wondering as his gut has healed so much maybe he doesen't need so many anymore.

>>>other people have found this, particularly if using digestive enzymes

Mandi x

May 7, 2006

Your lad needs Vit C so

How much Vit C, and in what form did you give him ?

And how much do you give him now - as he still needs some Vit C !

Geir Flatabø

veronicamadigan skrev:

>Hi everyone, been struggling for a few weeks now with and

>regression, he suddenly became very violent and started losing ground.

> Initially I stopped his calcium from reading Natasa's posts we seen

>less frequent rage cycles but just as violent when they did come,

>anyway reading stuff from LOD group made me think perhaps Vit C as it

>was a relatively new addition to his supps, talk about Eureka moment!!!

> we are back to smiles and gentleness, no violence at all, rage cycles

>has reverted back to just noisy protest, waited a couple of days to

>post this as didn't want to tempt fate lol.

>Have been reading bits and pieces on LOD but had trouble getting my

>head round it to be honest, I think I may have to go back and take more

>in.

>Anyone else noticed problems with Vit C, I did wonder about adding this

>in anyway as he is such a lover of veggies, maybe it's how much Vit C

>he gets, also wondering as has had so much success with all the

>gut healing perhaps the goal posts move in terms of what is being

>absorbed????

>Vicky

>

>DISCLAIMER

>No information contained in this post is to be construed as medical advice. If

you need medical advice, please seek it from a suitably qualified practitioner.

>

May 7, 2006

Your lad needs Vit C so

How much Vit C, and in what form did you give him ?

And how much do you give him now - as he still needs some Vit C !

Geir Flatabø

veronicamadigan skrev:

>Hi everyone, been struggling for a few weeks now with and

>regression, he suddenly became very violent and started losing ground.

> Initially I stopped his calcium from reading Natasa's posts we seen

>less frequent rage cycles but just as violent when they did come,

>anyway reading stuff from LOD group made me think perhaps Vit C as it

>was a relatively new addition to his supps, talk about Eureka moment!!!

> we are back to smiles and gentleness, no violence at all, rage cycles

>has reverted back to just noisy protest, waited a couple of days to

>post this as didn't want to tempt fate lol.

>Have been reading bits and pieces on LOD but had trouble getting my

>head round it to be honest, I think I may have to go back and take more

>in.

>Anyone else noticed problems with Vit C, I did wonder about adding this

>in anyway as he is such a lover of veggies, maybe it's how much Vit C

>he gets, also wondering as has had so much success with all the

>gut healing perhaps the goal posts move in terms of what is being

>absorbed????

>Vicky

>

>DISCLAIMER

>No information contained in this post is to be construed as medical advice. If

you need medical advice, please seek it from a suitably qualified practitioner.

>

May 7, 2006

Some interesting Vit C information from another list.

Miles.

Sodium Ascorbate Powder OR Ascorbic Acid (none of the other types - NO

calcium ascorbate or other mineral ascorbates) (

Ascorbic Acid for those of you more alkaline (if you know your pH of your

body - can test your saliva and urine and if above 6.4, use ascorbic acid)

(PS Ascorbic Acid can also help to bring your pH down and make you less

alkaline)

Sodium Ascorbate for those of you who are more acidic (if you know your pH

of your body - can test your saliva & urine and if below 6.4, use sodium

ascorbate). Sodium ascorbate is buffered with Bicarb. Also if you have a

hard time tolerating the Ascorbic Acid (stomach discomfort), use Sodium

Ascorbate.

We DO NOT synthesize Vitamin C in our own bodies as most animals do! We

are genetically lacking an enzyme (most of us - some people may have it and

those are the ones who live longer and seem to be able to do anything to

their bodies - we don't know). Dogs and cats don't synthesize much either

and so you see them greatly wounded by vaccination without ability to recover.

That is why this is needed and really shouldn't be thought of as a vitamin.

IT IS A MAJOR NUTRIENT that we are lacking and can't synthesize. I'll

tell you more about that.

I have found a great book which I will share about.

Here is info on dosage and source to buy (not usually available in health

food stores).

IN ILLNESS - You or your child take it in increasing doses until you start

to get loose bowel movements (or the baby does if you are breastfeeding),

then you know you have reached your limit. Then you back off a bit. You

need to take in 3 or so doses a day to keep your stores up. Start with the

maintaining dose below and work your way up until you reach bowel tolerance

and then back off and maintain that.

Also if want to give to the baby that you are nursing, express some

breastmilk, dissolve the vitamin C. Using a plastic dropper, drip it into

the inside of her cheek until all in, or get it into her as she breastfeeds

by inserting the dropper without breaking her " seal " - not so easy!!!

Can give yourself and baby gets by breastmilk and/or give to your baby.

If you are quite healthy, take it daily to keep your stores up, in a

maintenance dose as below.

MAINTENANCE DOSES

FOR AN ADULT probably 3,000-5,000 mg per day (divided in 2 or 3 doses - so

that would be 1,000 - 1500 mg three times a day or so)

FOR A CHILD - Needs to be spread out thru day as goes from body in 4 hours

or so.

1 kg is 2.2 pounds........... so divide the babies pounds by 2.2 and that

will give you kilos and then multiply X's 200-375 mg of Sodium Ascorbate

powder

Dosage rate = between 200 - 375 mg per kg of body weight over waking

hours, actual dose depends on individual.

So if your child weighs 4 kilos, one gram vitamin C = 1,000 mgs (

one-quarter of a level tsp) should be split into several doses, and given

from morning to evening....

One good pinch equals 250 mgs, if you want to use the vague method.

******

SOURCES

In UK I get from Health Plus http://www.healthplus.co.uk

In US http://www.bronsononline.com/

and then find VITAMIN C CRYSTALS (NON-ACIDIC) Product #50

in Australia - Melrose was suggested to me

http://www.naturalcity.com.au/product.aspx?id=2333

or google +sodium+ascorbate+australia

Articles & info

http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm

TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE

The maximum relief of symptoms which can be expected with oral doses of

ascorbic acid is obtained at a point just short of the amount which

produces diarrhea. The amount and the timing of the doses are usually

sensed by the patient. The physician should not try to regulate exactly the

amount and timing of these doses because the optimally effective dose will

often change from dose to dose. Patients are instructed on the general

principles of determining doses and given estimates of the reasonable

starting amounts and timing of these doses. I have named this process of

the patient determining the optimum dose, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE. The

patient tries to TITRATE between that amount which begins to make him feel

better and that amount which almost but not quite causes diarrhea.

http://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htm

Journal of Applied Nutrition Vol. 23, No's 3 & 4, Winter 1971

Observations On the Dose and Administration of Ascorbic Acid When Employed

Beyond the Range Of A Vitamin In Human Pathology

Frederick R. Klenner, M.D., F.C.C.P.

*********

" How Much Is Too Much?

Dr. Cathcart believes the ideal intake for any individual is the

highest level they can tolerate without loose bowels. On the basis of his

experience with 11,000 patients over 14 years this bowel tolerance level

may be 10 to 15 grams in a healthy person, 30 to 60 grams in a person with

a cold, and over 199 grams per day in a person with a serious infectious

illness. During an infectious illness the best clinical results have been

achieved by maintaining high vitamin C levels in the blood through 3 or

more grams every four hours.

Fortunately, vitamin C is one of the least toxic substances known to man.

Four studies gave 10 grams of vitamin C to over 3000 patients without a

single reported incidence of toxicity. Other than the bowels there has not

been one single case of toxicity resulting from taking vitamin C

supplements, despite unfounded reports of potential risk for kidney stones,

raising blood uric acid levels, or 'rebound' scurvy. It is unlikely that

any vitamin has been tested to such an extent for toxicity and it is safe

to assume that supplemental levels of at least 10 grams a day, or up to

bowel tolerance, are completely safe. "

(again this may need to be sodium ascorbate form)

***********

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#HOLFORD

VITAMIN C:

HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

By Holford

Most Animals Produce The Equivalent Of 3 to 15 Grams of Vitamin C Every Day

Vitamin C isn't a vitamin at all. It isn't a necessary component of diet,

at least for all mammals with the exception of guinea pigs, fruit eating

bats, the red vented bulbul bird and primates - which includes us. All

other species make their own.

This they do by converting glucuronic acid derived from glucose into

ascorbic acid (C6H8O6). Three enzymes are required to make this conversion.

One of these enzymes, or part of the enzyme system, is missing in primates.

Irwin Stone proposed, in 1965, that a negative mutation may have occurred

in these species so as to lose the ability to produce vitamin C. In

primates this is thought to have occurred in the region of 25 million years

ago.

Mutations can and frequently do occur in nature. Only those that put a

species at advantage at the time tend to become dominant. Unfortunately,

reversing such mutations is highly unlikely to occur. Unlike other

vitamins, vitamin C is required in large amounts which could only be

supplied by a tropical diet high in fruit and other vegetation. if

sufficient vitamin C could be obtained from such a diet the quantity of

glucose normally used to synthesize vitamin C could be channeled towards

energy production. This could conceivably have been an advantage for

primates or other species.

This advantage may have come at a price. Dr. Jungblut, an early pioneer of

vitamin C therapy in the 1930's, discovered that only us primates and

guinea pigs were susceptible to scurvy as well as anaphylactic shock,

pulmonary tuberculosis, diptheritic intoxication, a poliomyelitis-like

viral infection and a viral form of leukemia. None of the vitamin C

synthesizing laboratory animals had susceptibility to these diseases. This

is perhaps one of the first observations that led to the idea that

susceptibility to viral infections could be a consequence of vitamin C

deficiency. Could humanity's history of disease - endemic infections,

plagues and more recently cancer and heart disease - be the result of our

inability to produce vitamin C and our inability to obtain it from the food

we eat?

Vitamin C produced per day by different animal species

(equivalent for 70 Kg Man)

Goat 2,280 - 13,300 mg

Rat 2,737 - 13,902 mg

Rabbit 1,547 - 15,820 mg

Cow 1,099 - 1,281 mg

Mouse 2,352 - 19,250 mg

Sheep 1,736 mg

Cat 336 - 2,800 mg

More than 50% of People Require Over 2,500 mg to Reach Maximum Absorption

Vitamin C is One of the Least Toxic Substances Known to Man

The fact that almost all species continue to make vitamin C suggests that

the amount of vitamin C generally available from diet is not enough for

optimum nutrition except in exceptional circumstances such as a tropical

environment. The chart above shows the average amount produced by each

animal, adjusted to an equivalent body weight for Man. Under normal

circumstances the daily amount produced, adjusted for comparison to a 70 kg

man, is somewhere between 3,000 mg and 15,000 mg, with an average of 5,400 mg.

Species of monkeys, such as the squirrel monkey, require an equivalent of

2,000 mg a day to maintain health and up to 1000 mg a day to maintain blood

levels found in the wild. Animals produce variable amounts depending on

their circumstances. Under conditions of stress or infection synthesis can

easily quadruple. Some primates appear to require up to 2,800 mg a day

equivalent to survive the long-term stresses of captivity, while guinea

pigs require 3,000 mg per day to recover from anesthesia.

What about us? While a mere 60 mg a day can prevent scurvy, the deficiency

disease first identified by Dr. Lind in 1753, it would be illogical

to assume that this is the optimal dose. A survey of doctors in the US

found that those who were healthiest consumed at least 250 mg of vitamin C

per day. A recent survey has shown that a person's vitamin status is a good

predictor of their mortality risk. High blood vitamin C levels indicate a

low risk for cardiovascular disease and certain types of cancer and other

immune based diseases. Optimal intakes to reduce risk of such conditions

would appear to be at least 500 mg per day.

Expensive Urine?

But aren't you simply making expensive urine when you take large amounts of

supplements? Dr. Colgan investigated this often made rebuttal. He

investigated how much vitamin C we use by giving increasing daily doses and

measuring excretion. " Only a quarter of our subjects reached their vitamin

C maximum at 1,500 mg a day. More than half required over 2,500 mg a day to

reach a level where their bodies could use no more. Four subjects did not

reach their maximum at 5,000 mg. " Increasing vitamin C intake from 50 mg to

500 mg tends to double serum vitamin C levels. Increasing intake to 5,000

mg a day will double serum levels again. Expensive urine? Vitamin C

protects the bowel, kidneys and bladder on the way out. As Dr.

Colgan points out the average victim of bowel or bladder cancer spends

$26,000 for treatment - mostly to no avail.

While it is valid to infer from this brief history of evolution, a

comparison with other species, and average excretion rates that optimal

vitamin C levels are probably above 1,000 mg with plenty of room for

individual variation,what about 'hard evidence'? What levels are required

to ensure maximum function of enzymes and body systems dependent on vitamin

C? A quick review of some of vitamin C's hundreds of biochemical roles will

help us here. Vitamin C is required for the synthesis of collagen. Our

intercellular glue that keeps skin, lungs, arteries, the digestive tract

and all organs intact. It is a potent anti-oxidant protecting against free

radicals, pollution, carcinogens, heavy metals, and other toxins. It is

strongly anti-viral and mildly anti-bacterial. Energy cannot be made in any

cell, brain or muscle without adequate vitamin C. The adrenal glands have a

high concentration of vitamin C which is essential for stress hormone

synthesis. Vitamin C is so central in so many chemical reactions in the

body that,without it, life is simply not possible.

Are Western Killer Diseases Symptoms of a Vitamin C Deficiency?

The immune system depends on having healthy immune cells and associate

molecules such as antibodies. Vitamin C is essential for both. Antibody

production increases on supplementing 1 gram of vitamin C. It is also

needed for interferon, complement, and prostaglandin production, and is

essential for the proper function of immune cells such as lymphocytes and

leukocytes. A recent study showed, in the test tube, that vitamin C can

even inactivate the HIV virus.

Thanks to the work of Linus ing and coworkers we know that 10 grams of

vitamin C doubles the life expectancy of cancer patients, and, in some

cases effects a complete cure. Its role is even more pivotal in

cardiovascular disease, which is now being postulated as the long-term

consequence of vitamin C deficiency. Just about every marker of

cardiovascular disease, arterial damage, high blood cholesterol levels, low

HDL levels, high levels of oxidized cholesterol, thick blood are all

improved by adequate vitamin C intake at levels up to 10 grams a day.

Vitamin C increases resistance to stress, lessens allergic reactions, helps

arthritic conditions, slows down the aging process and improves energy

production. Beneficial effects of vitamin C in human trials tend to

increase with the amount given up to, and above, 10 grams per day. On the

basis of research into vitamin C's effect on disease states it would appear

that an intake of somewhere between 1 and 10 grams may be optimal simply

for maintaining optimal function of the immune, endocrine and

cardiovascular system.

How Much Is Too Much?