Re: Vitamin C Supps & Burning Acidic Urine....? - calling BOB

[Guest guest]

The reason I'm wondering about this is.........I've spoken to the people Ibought D-Mannose from (a natural cure for UTI's & cystitis) & he is inclined to think that my urine is too acidic & could A) be causing my burning & feeding a low grade e-coli infection. We went through what I've been eating, drinking etc & supps came up......he thinks the level of Vit C I'm on (4G daily) could be too much for my body & be responsible for points A/B above. I suppose it is ascorbic acid.......He said ideally I need to get my urine to be more alkaline (7.0 or above) as its currently 6.0 ( & that's with taking bicarbonate of soda in water for the past three days).

Hello Bob and all,

I wonder if I can pick your brains re a "chemical" question; I'm a friend of Kerry's (with the above problem) and I am as stumped as she is about what is going on... but then chemistry has never been my strong point.

Kerry had her urine culture result in the meantime – there is no bacterial infection.

It is quite possible (or is it??) that a too low ph might cause Kerry this horrible cystitis, so how can she get her urine PH more alkaline? She had been taken HCL Betaine (1 with each main meal), but she has stopped that for the moment, just in case this is to blame (could it be????) She's now stopped the Vit C, although logically I can't see this being the culprit... but then, if not the Vit C – then WHAT? - A course of antibiotics did not help either (the urine was sent to the lab before she took antibiotics btw).

I also read that low oestrogen can lead to recurrent cystitis'... well, that is a possibility, but Kerry already uses Serenity cream to bring her sex hormones in line.

She is, however not on any thyroid medication at the moment, despite being hypothyroid (confirmed Hashi's) – but the slightest amount of any kind of thyroid hormone hypes her and makes her thyrotoxic.... she's tried just about any combination of everything, and not just once. On Dr. P's advice she is now temporarily on adrenal support only (4 NAX am and 40 mg HC cream – spread out through the day) and all the other supplements. Thyroid meds at the moment are still impossible to tolerate.

Have you - or anybody else - some bright idea of

a) What might be going on – what is causing the cystitis?

How to bring up the ph of the urine (if that were a sensible thing to do)

c) is stopping Vit C and HCL Betaine a sensible measure?

Many thanks,

xx

[Guest guest]

This could be oxalate dumping. My daughter used to get this. There is a Vitamin

K protocol which deals with oxalates. What helped my daughter was colonising her

gut with Oxalobacter Formigenes which is present in raw cabbage juice. I have a

recipe if you are interested. You only need to drink the cabbage/carrot/apple

juice a few times to ensure colonisation. Over use of antibiotics kills the

Oxalobater Formigenes in the gut.

>

>

> The reason I'm wondering about this is.........I've spoken to the people

> I

> bought D-Mannose from (a natural cure for UTI's & cystitis) & he is

> inclined to think that my urine is too acidic & could A) be causing my

> burning & feeding a low grade e-coli infection. We went through what

> I've been eating, drinking etc & supps came up......he thinks the level

> of Vit C I'm on (4G daily) could be too much for my body & be

> responsible for points A/B above. I suppose it is ascorbic acid.......He

> said ideally I need to get my urine to be more alkaline (7.0 or above)

> as its currently 6.0 ( & that's with taking bicarbonate of soda in water

> for the past three days).

>

>

>

> Hello Bob and all,

>

> I wonder if I can pick your brains re a " chemical " question; I'm a

> friend of Kerry's (with the above problem) and I am as stumped as

> she is about what is going on... but then chemistry has never been my

> strong point.

>

> Kerry had her urine culture result in the meantime – there is no

> bacterial infection.

>

> It is quite possible (or is it??) that a too low ph might cause Kerry

> this horrible cystitis, so how can she get her urine PH more alkaline?

> She had been taken HCL Betaine (1 with each main meal), but she has

> stopped that for the moment, just in case this is to blame (could it

> be????) She's now stopped the Vit C, although logically I can't

> see this being the culprit... but then, if not the Vit C – then

> WHAT? - A course of antibiotics did not help either (the urine was sent

> to the lab before she took antibiotics btw).

>

> I also read that low oestrogen can lead to recurrent cystitis'...

> well, that is a possibility, but Kerry already uses Serenity cream to

> bring her sex hormones in line.

>

> She is, however not on any thyroid medication at the moment, despite

> being hypothyroid (confirmed Hashi's) – but the slightest amount

> of any kind of thyroid hormone hypes her and makes her thyrotoxic....

> she's tried just about any combination of everything, and not just

> once. On Dr. P's advice she is now temporarily on adrenal support

> only (4 NAX am and 40 mg HC cream – spread out through the day) and

> all the other supplements. Thyroid meds at the moment are still

> impossible to tolerate.

>

> Have you - or anybody else - some bright idea of

>

> a) What might be going on – what is causing the cystitis?

>

> How to bring up the ph of the urine (if that were a sensible thing

> to do)

>

> c) is stopping Vit C and HCL Betaine a sensible measure?

>

> Many thanks,

>

> xx

>

[Guest guest]

>> This could be oxalate dumping. My daughter used to get this. There is a Vitamin K protocol which deals with oxalates. What helped my daughter was colonising her gut with Oxalobacter Formigenes which is present in raw cabbage juice. I have a recipe if you are interested. You only need to drink the cabbage/carrot/apple juice a few times to ensure colonisation. Over use of antibiotics kills the Oxalobater Formigenes in the gut.

Hello ,

Sounds like an avenue worth exploring - many thanks; and yes please, would you post the recipe for Kerry on here. It's certainly worth giving this a try. I used to get cystitis as a kid a lot... the memory of that pain has never left me. It's horrid!

Cabbage/carrot/apple juice will be just up Kerry's street - won't it Kerry? Also have a read through this site - very interesting.

http://lowoxalate.info/research.html

Many thanks,

love, xx

[Guest guest]

Thank you ) It would be fabulous to get the recipe from you....will try it this weekend. I have taken a lot of antibiotics over the years so definately worth a go. 

Thanks again for responding to my plight! Kerry x 

This could be oxalate dumping. My daughter used to get this. There is a Vitamin K protocol which deals with oxalates. What helped my daughter was colonising her gut with Oxalobacter Formigenes which is present in raw cabbage juice. I have a recipe if you are interested. You only need to drink the cabbage/carrot/apple juice a few times to ensure colonisation. Over use of antibiotics kills the Oxalobater Formigenes in the gut.

 

[Guest guest]

Here you go Kerry - if this is the problem, then you will get relief very

quickly - in my daughter's case it was overnight. My daughter has been having

UTI's since the age of 2 - she has had loads of antibiotics and was at one point

put on prophylactic antibiotics for months at a time. Since drinking the juice

she has had very few problems - those that have arisen have been taken care of

by D-mannose.

This extract is from the Vitamin K group - who is mentioned is the

lady who has researched this. The VSL#3 mentioned is a high dose pharmaceutical

probiotic (you can buy it in the UK).

" make...carrot-apple-cabbage juice about twice a week. Oxalobacter

formigenes,the bacteria that breaks down oxalate the best, lives on cabbage and

by juicing cabbage leaves you can implant it into [the] colon. It's much better

at degrading oxalate than VSL#3 is. The oral Epsom salts flushes oxalate out of

the cells; the body deposits it into the intestines for disposal; and the

cabbage bacteria break it down. It's a neat, clean solution to the oxalate issue

– there's absolutely no need whatsoever to go on a low-oxalate diet. "

" For four of us I juice 16 carrots, 4 apples, and 1/2 to 1 head cabbage

depending on its size. Do this twice a week, and then on 1 or 2 other days make

the juice but without the cabbage. For most kids the Oxalobacter formigenes

should implant after 2 or 3 rounds, but for kids with very bad dysbiosis it may

take repeated juicing to get the Oxalobacter to implant.

" We still eat a lot of VSL#3 yogurt (because I love goat milk yogurt) but you

don't need to use VSL#3 as a supplement for oxalate control. "

The Epsom salts referred to above are 's preferred method of giving

magnesium (upcoming revised K Protocol).

I asked how long to do the juicing for and she said that after 3 weeks

just do it as often as you feel like since it is healthful. She also theorizes

that some compound in the carrot juice binds and pulls plastics out of the body.

For those battling yeast, feels this fresh juice has more advantages

than disadvantages.

I have noticed the recent thread on another list regarding goitrogens and so I

asked if I should avoid this cabbage juice due to being on thyroid

meds. She said I might want to limit mine to once a week.

Hope that this helps Kerry - the juice is actually quite nice to drink.

x

>

> Thank you )

>

> It would be fabulous to get the recipe from you....will try it this weekend.

> I have taken a lot of antibiotics over the years so definately worth a go.

>

> Thanks again for responding to my plight!

>

> Kerry x

>

>

> > This could be oxalate dumping. My daughter used to get this. There is a

> > Vitamin K protocol which deals with oxalates. What helped my daughter was

> > colonising her gut with Oxalobacter Formigenes which is present in raw

> > cabbage juice. I have a recipe if you are interested. You only need to drink

> > the cabbage/carrot/apple juice a few times to ensure colonisation. Over use

> > of antibiotics kills the Oxalobater Formigenes in the gut.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

Recipe posted. It would probably be worth anyone who has had alot of antibiotics

drinking this juice, even if they do not have any obvious symptoms.

I will be letting you know progress with my daughter soon.

Love, xx

> Sounds like an avenue worth exploring - many thanks; and yes please,

> would you post the recipe for Kerry on here. It's certainly worth giving

> this a try. I used to get cystitis as a kid a lot... the memory of that

> pain has never left me. It's horrid!

> love, xx

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

http://www.biochemj.org/bj/imps/abs/BJ20110939.htm

Alternative pathways of dehydroascorbic acid degradation in vitro and in plant cell cultures: novel insights into vitamin C catabolism

Harriet Tempé Parsons, Tayyaba Yasmin and C. Fry

IMPS, DBS, The University of Edinburgh, EDINBURGH, United Kingdom. S.Fry@...

This paper is both relevant and timely.

Bob

will do some more reading on this

>> > The reason I'm wondering about this is.........I've spoken to the people> I> bought D-Mannose from (a natural cure for UTI's & cystitis) & he is> inclined to think that my urine is too acidic & could A) be causing my> burning & feeding a low grade e-coli infection. We went through what> I've been eating, drinking etc & supps came up......he thinks the level> of Vit C I'm on (4G daily) could be too much for my body & be> responsible for points A/B above. I suppose it is ascorbic acid.......He> said ideally I need to get my urine to be more alkaline (7.0 or above)> as its currently 6.0 ( & that's with taking bicarbonate of soda in water> for the past three days).> > > > Hello Bob and all,> > I wonder if I can pick your brains re a "chemical" question; I'm a> friend of Kerry's (with the above problem) and I am as stumped as

[Guest guest]

When I was a little girl, we had to drink the water the cabbage

had been boiled in that we always had with the Sunday roast. I used to sprinkle

salt and pepper into it and it was beautiful. I really looked forward to

Sunday. I guess they knew something I didn't and I was always well and rosy

cheeked.

Luv - Sheila

>

> This could be oxalate dumping. My daughter

used to get this. There is a Vitamin K protocol which deals with oxalates. What

helped my daughter was colonising her gut with Oxalobacter Formigenes which is

present in raw cabbage juice. I have a recipe if you are interested. You only

need to drink the cabbage/carrot/apple juice a few times to ensure colonisation.

Over use of antibiotics kills the Oxalobater Formigenes in the gut.

Hello ,

Sounds like an avenue worth exploring - many thanks; and yes please,

would you post the recipe for Kerry on here. It's certainly worth giving

this a try. I used to get cystitis as a kid a lot... the memory of that

pain has never left me. It's horrid!

Cabbage/carrot/apple juice will be just up Kerry's street - won't it

Kerry? Also

have a read through this site - very interesting.

http://lowoxalate.info/research.html

Many thanks,

love, xx

[Guest guest]

http://hdl.handle.net/1842/3075

Transport and metabolism of symplastic and apoplastic ascorbate during oxidative stress

PhD Thesis of Harriet T. Parsons (2009)

> >> > This could be oxalate dumping. My daughter used to get this. There is> a Vitamin K protocol which deals with oxalates. What helped my daughter> was colonising her gut with Oxalobacter Formigenes which is present in> raw cabbage juice. I have a recipe if you are interested. You only need> to drink the cabbage/carrot/apple juice a few times to ensure> colonisation. Over use of antibiotics kills the Oxalobater Formigenes in> the gut.> > > Hello ,> > Sounds like an avenue worth exploring - many thanks; and yes please,> would you post the recipe for Kerry on here. It's certainly worth giving> this a try. I used to get cystitis as a kid a lot... the memory of that> pain has never left me. It's horrid!> > Cabbage/carrot/apple juice will be just up Kerry's street - won't it> Kerry? [;] Also have a read through this site - very interesting.> > http://lowoxalate.info/research.html> <http://lowoxalate.info/research.html>> > Many thanks, []> > love, xx>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

I don't think that this would have worked though as heat kills the Oxalobacter

formigenes (apparently) which is why is has to be raw cabbage juice.

Perhaps some gets through or there is something else in boiled cabbage water -

they must have known that there were some benefits! Glad that it tasted good!

>

> When I was a little girl, we had to drink the water the cabbage had been

> boiled in that we always had with the Sunday roast. I used to sprinkle salt

> and pepper into it and it was beautiful.

moderated!¬!¬!¬!¬!!

[Guest guest]

Awe - I thought we were going to get the recipe on the forum

.

Luv - Sheila

Hello ,

Recipe posted. It would probably be worth anyone who has had alot of

antibiotics drinking this juice, even if they do not have any obvious symptoms.

I will be letting you know progress with my daughter soon.

Love, xx

[Guest guest]

> Awe - I thought we were going to get the recipe on the forum .> Luv - Sheila

has done, Sheila - pls. check Message #89617

I am going to try this myself- even without cystitis, this sounds yummy ....

love,

xx

[Guest guest]

Ascorbate catabolism involves reversible oxidation to dehydroascorbic acid (DHA), then irreversible oxidation or hydrolysis. The precursor–product relationships and the identity of several major DHA breakdown products remained unclear. In the presence of added H2O2, DHA underwent little hydrolysis to 2,3-diketogulonate (DKG). Instead it yielded oxalyl-threonate (OxT2-), cyclic-oxalyl-threonate (cOxT-) and free oxalate (~6:1:1), essentially simultaneously, suggesting that all three product classes independently arose from one reactive intermediate, proposed to be cyclic-2,3-O-oxalyl-L-threonolactone. Only with plant apoplastic esterases present were the esters significant precursors of free oxalate. Without added H2O2, DHA was slowly hydrolysed to DKG. Downstream of DKG was a singly ionised dicarboxy compound (suggested to be 2-carboxy-L-xylonolactone plus 2-carboxy-L-lyxonolactone), which reversibly de-lactonised to a dianionic carboxypentonate. Formation of these lactones and acid was minimised by the presence of residual unreacted ascorbate. In vivo, the putative 2-carboxy-L-pentonolactones were relatively stable. We propose that DHA is a branch-point in ascorbate catabolism, being either oxidised to oxalate and its esters or hydrolysed to DKG and downstream carboxypentonates. The oxidation:hydrolysis ratio is governed by reactive oxygen species status. In vivo, oxalyl esters are enzymatically hydrolysed, but the carboxypentonates are stable. The biological roles of these ascorbate metabolites invite future exploration.

GULP .... many thanks, Bob J .... perhaps now is a good time to admit that I got an F in chemistry ? - Physics I can (just about) sort of follow, but with something like the above or the previous link to Harriet Parsons' PhD thesis I admit defeat ;o) However, I picked out the word `oxalate' above and although I haven't got a clue what the whole sentence is actually saying, might there be a connection to 's proposed oxalate dumping ?

When you've got a minute, Bob, I would be really grateful if you'd summarize what the above article, the PhD thesis and anything else you might dig up from other sources are saying about the connection between Vit C and cystitis in plain English for unsophisticated mere mortals like me J .

Many thanks, it's much appreciated.

[Guest guest]

Hi , Thanks so much for taking the time to post this info....I've been down the farmers market this morning & got the goodies so just need to sort myself a juicer & I'll be up & running. )

 I think looking at all the info I will drink it twice a week for the first three weeks & then drop to once a week as of the goitrogens issue. I think the burning might be abating a little (finally!) with the aid of cider vinegar & D-Mannose so hopefully with this juice it will soon be zapped!

 Thanks again, really appreciated Kerry x

 

" make...carrot-apple-cabbage juice about twice a week. Oxalobacter formigenes,the bacteria that breaks down oxalate the best, lives on cabbage and by juicing cabbage leaves you can implant it into [the] colon.

 

I have noticed the recent thread on another list regarding goitrogens and so I asked if I should avoid this cabbage juice due to being on thyroid meds. She said I might want to limit mine to once a week. 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I've been dithering around chemistry for more than 50yrs and I'm still

learning...

That's lots to digest and even more to regurgitate in a semi-digested

form... oops sorry for the metaphor

Bob

will take some ' salts ' to help get it down .... KWIM

> When you've got a minute, Bob, I would be really grateful if

> you'd summarize what the above article, the PhD thesis and anything

> else you might dig up from other sources are saying about the

connection

> between Vit C and cystitis in plain English for unsophisticated mere

> mortals like me J .

>

> Many thanks, it's much appreciated.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I saw it as soon as I posted my message . I am also

going to try this.

Luv - Sheila

> Awe - I thought we were going to get

the recipe on the forum .

> Luv - Sheila

has done, Sheila - pls. check Message #89617

I am going to try this myself- even without cystitis, this sounds yummy

.....

love,

xx

[Guest guest]

Well,

it's as simple as A, B, C once you know - read it through

again, only this time, start at the end and read backwards, prefably standing

on your head with one eye closed - then it all falls into place and makes

complete sense. Thanks Bob, will await a translation as requested by

if you have time.

Luv -

Sheila

Ascorbate

catabolism involves reversible oxidation to dehydroascorbic acid (DHA), then

irreversible oxidation or hydrolysis. The precursor–product relationships

and the identity of several major DHA breakdown products remained unclear. In

the presence of added H2O2, DHA underwent little

hydrolysis to 2,3-diketogulonate (DKG). Instead it yielded oxalyl-threonate

(OxT2-), cyclic-oxalyl-threonate (cOxT-) and free oxalate

(~6:1:1), essentially simultaneously, suggesting that all three product classes

independently arose from one reactive intermediate, proposed to be cyclic-2,3-O-oxalyl-L-threonolactone.

Only with plant apoplastic esterases present were the esters significant

precursors of free oxalate. Without added H2O2, DHA was

slowly hydrolysed to DKG. Downstream of DKG was a singly ionised dicarboxy

compound (suggested to be 2-carboxy-L-xylonolactone plus

2-carboxy-L-lyxonolactone), which reversibly de-lactonised to a dianionic

carboxypentonate. Formation of these lactones and acid was minimised by the

presence of residual unreacted ascorbate. In vivo, the putative

2-carboxy-L-pentonolactones were relatively stable. We propose that DHA is a

branch-point in ascorbate catabolism, being either oxidised to oxalate

and its esters or hydrolysed to DKG and downstream carboxypentonates. The oxidation:hydrolysis ratio is governed by reactive

oxygen species status. In vivo, oxalyl esters are enzymatically

hydrolysed, but the carboxypentonates are stable. The biological roles of these

ascorbate metabolites invite future exploration.

GULP .... many thanks,

Bob J .... perhaps now is a

good time to admit that I got an F in chemistry ? - Physics I can (just

about) sort of follow, but with something like the above or the previous link

to Harriet Parsons' PhD thesis I admit defeat ;o)

However, I picked out the word `oxalate' above and although I

haven't got a clue what the whole sentence is actually saying, might

there be a connection to 's proposed oxalate dumping ?

When you've got a

minute, Bob, I would be really grateful if you'd summarize what the above

article, the PhD thesis and anything else you might dig up from other sources

are saying about the connection between Vit C and cystitis in plain English for

unsophisticated mere mortals like me J

..

Many thanks, it's much

appreciated.

[Guest guest]

, what about any goitrogens that might effect thyroid

function. I don't have a thyroid anymore so it would make no difference to me,

but it is recommended that cabbage and brassica's be cooked before being eaten

to kill off the goitrogens.

Luv - Sheila

Hi Sheila,

I don't think that this would have worked though as heat kills the Oxalobacter

formigenes (apparently) which is why is has to be raw cabbage juice.

Perhaps some gets through or there is something else in boiled cabbage water -

they must have known that there were some benefits! Glad that it tasted good!

---

,___

[Guest guest]

That's lots to digest and even more to regurgitate in a semi-digestedform... oops sorry for the metaphor

(((LOL))).... ok, I'll lighten the burden – can you please just regurgitate the bottom line once you have digested all this scientific talk .... - will taking Vit C make the urine more acidic and thereby increase the possibility of cystitis ? Never mind the process, just give us the answers

Thanks, Bob

Love,

[Guest guest]

Good luck Kerry - let's hope that it works!

x

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

Yes, I think that this was covered in what I posted. Once you have done the

initial colonisation it is recommended that you only drink the juice once a week

because of the goitrogens. Since I originally put my family on the juice, we

haven't had any now for several months and there has been no repeat of the

symptoms for my daughter. If any of us had any antibiotics I would put us on

another course for a week or so.

Hope that you get on well with it - maybe just take it for a week or two only.

x