Re: Very confused now

[Guest guest]

Hi Sue - I'm maybe not qualified to answer your question as I have just received

NDT in the post & was going to wait until later in the month to take them

(awaiting blood tests) but this morning I couldn't resist so I've had 1/4 grain

twice today. It just seems to me that after reading through the 'how to take

NDT' in the files that 1 grain per day is quite a low dose. Did you ever try to

up the NDT at any stage? The reason your TSH was so high was just your body

trying to stimulate your thyroid to produce more T4 - I'm sure other people here

will give a more help as my head is fuzz atm but I'm hoping it disappears with

the NDT.

Take care,

Dot

>

> Hi, I was taking Natural Desiccated Thyroid - I grain Armour/Naturthroid for

over three years and felt fine although the GP was unhappy with my levels. Last

year I had problems obtaining my tablets from USA and so used Greater Pharma to

obtain Thiroyd 60mg. For some reason I started to feel hypo again and my hair

began to fall out.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Hi, I was taking Natural Desiccated Thyroid - I grain Armour/Naturthroid for

over three years and felt fine although the GP was unhappy with my levels. Last

year I had problems obtaining my tablets from USA and so used Greater Pharma to

obtain Thiroyd 60mg. For some reason I started to feel hypo again and my hair

began to fall out.

>

[Guest guest]

It does sound as if it could be something to do with that batch of thyroid. Why

not just try again with a different brand - since you don't feel well anyway,

you have nothing to lose. I was only on 75mcg of Levo & have started with 2 1/4

grains which is pretty close to 75mcg so it'll be interesting to see at what

stage I have palpitations. If you read how to take NDT in the files again &

start again. Plus remember there are other factors to take into consideration

like what your bloods are - ferritin, copper, D3, magnesium, zinc, B12, folate,

potassium. I try to eat foods that contain these each day but I'm getting them

checked soon to double check.

Also a major factor for me is diet - if I eat foods with sugar, coffee or even

too many nuts I feel a very definite dip in energy.

Hope you get sorted - let me know how you get on.

Dorothy

because I used to take 125 of Levothyroxine I maybe should take more - not

because I felt unwell. Anyway I got palpitations so went back down to 1 grain

(60mg). It was after taking this last batch of Thiroyd for about three months

that the problems started.

[Guest guest]

Sue,

you need to check out the list of associated conditions that need to be treated

if your thyroid hormone isn't working. See below:

There are MANY

reasons and many medical conditions associated with thyroid disease that stop

thyroid hormone from getting into the cells, where it does its work. I mention

these over and over and over again - ad nauseum - people must be bored with the

same old, same old but as each new member joins us, they need to know.

The

main condition responsible for stopping thyroid hormone from working, is, quite

simply, a patients thyroxine dose is too low because the doctor or consultant

refuses to increase it, because the serum thyroid function test results appear

OK. Sometimes, the thyroxine dose is too high, yet patients still don't feel

well. They continue to suffer. Some reasons for this:

They may be suffering

with low adrenal reserve. The production of T4, its conversion to T3, and the

receptor uptake requires a normal amount of adrenal hormones, notably, of

course, cortisone. (Excess cortisone can shut production down, however.) This

is what happens if the adrenals are not responding properly, and provision of

cortisone usually switches it on again. But sometimes it

doesn’t. If the illness has been going on for a long time, the

enzyme seems to fail. This conversion failure (inexplicably denied by

many endocrinologists) means the thyroxine builds up, unconverted. So it

doesn’t work, and T4 toxicosis results. This makes the patient feel quite

unwell, toxic, often with palpitations and chest pain. If provision of adrenal

support doesn’t remedy the situation, the final solution is the use of

the active thyroid hormone, already converted, T3 - either synthetic or

natural.

Then, we have

systemic candidiasis. This is where candida albicans, a yeast, which causes

skin infections almost anywhere in the body, invades the lining of the lower

part of the small intestine and the large intestine. Here, the candida

sets up residence in the warmth and the dark, and demands to be fed.

Loving sugars and starches, candida can make you suffer terrible sweet

cravings. Candida can produce toxins which can cause very many symptoms

of exhaustion, headache, general illness, and which interfere with the uptake

of thyroid and adrenal treatment. Sometimes the levels - which we usually

test for - can be very high, and make successful treatment difficult to achieve

until adequately treated.

Then there is

receptor resistance which could be a culprit. Being hypothyroid for some

considerable time may mean the biochemical mechanisms which permit the binding

of T3 to the receptors, is downgraded - so the T3 won’t go in. With

slow build up of T3, with full adrenal support and adequate vitamins and

minerals, the receptors do come on line again. But this can be quite a

slow process, and care has to be taken to build the dose up gradually.

And then there are

Food allergies. The most common food allergy is allergy to gluten, the protein

fraction of wheat. The antibody generated by the body, by a process of

molecular mimicry, cross reacts with the thyroperoxidase enzyme, (which makes

thyroxine) and shuts it down. So allergy to bread can make you

hypothyroid. There may be other food allergies with this kind of effect, but

information on these is scanty. Certainly allergic response to certain

foods can affect adrenal function and imperil thyroid production and uptake.

Then we have hormone

imbalances. The whole of the endocrine system is linked; each part of it needs

the other parts to be operating normally to work properly. An example of

this we have seen already, with cortisone. But another example is the

operation of sex hormones. The imbalance that occurs at the menopause

with progesterone running down, and a relative dominance of oestrogen is a

further case in point – oestrogen dominance downgrades production,

transportation and uptake of thyroid hormones. This is why hypothyroidism

may first appear at the menopause; the symptoms ascribed to this alone, which

is then treated – often with extra oestrogen, making the whole thing

worse. Deficiency in progesterone most especially needs to be dealt with,

since it reverses oestrogen dominance, improves many menopausal symptoms like

sweats and mood swings, and reverses osteoporosis. Happily natural

progesterone cream is easily obtained: when used it has the added benefit of

helping to stabilise adrenal function.

Then, we must never

forget the possibility of mercury poisoning (through amalgam fillings) - low

levels of ferritin, vitamin B12, vitamin D3, magnesium, folate, copper and zinc

- all of which, if low, stop the thyroid hormone from being utilised by the

cells - these have to be treated.

As Dr Peatfield says

" When you have been quite unwell for a long time, all these problems have

to be dealt with; and since each may affect the other, it all has to be done

rather carefully.

Contrary

to cherished beliefs by much of the medical establishment, the correction of a

thyroid deficiency state has a number of complexities and variables, which make

the treatment usually quite specific for each person. The balancing of

these variables is as much up to you as to me – which is why a check of

morning, day and evening temperatures and pulse rates, together with symptoms,

good and bad, can be so helpful.

Many

of you have been ill for a long time, either because you have not been

diagnosed, or the treatment leaves you still quite unwell. Those of you

who have relatively mild hypothyroidism, and have been diagnosed relatively

quickly, may well respond to synthetic thyroxine, the standard treatment.

I am therefore unlikely to see you; since if the thyroxine proves satisfactory

in use, it is merely a question of dosage.

For

many of you, the outstanding problem is not that the diagnosis has not been

made – although, extraordinarily, this is disgracefully common –

but that is has, and the thyroxine treatment doesn’t work. The dose

has been altered up and down, and clinical improvement is variable and

doesn’t last, in spite of blood tests, which say you are perfectly all

right (and therefore you are actually depressed and need this fine

antidepressant).

The

above problems must be eliminated if thyroid hormone isn't working for you.

>

Hi Dot,

Thanks for trying to answer my question. I took 1 grain for around 3 years and

felt fine; I did try to up it once because I somehow got the idea that because

I used to take 125 of Levothyroxine I maybe should take more - not because I

felt unwell. Anyway I got palpitations so went back down to 1 grain (60mg). It

was after taking this last batch of Thiroyd for about three months that the

problems started.

Sue

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi, I was taking Natural Desiccated Thyroid - I grain Armour/Naturthroid

for over three years and felt fine although the GP was unhappy with my levels.

Last year I had problems obtaining my tablets from USA and so used Greater

Pharma to obtain Thiroyd 60mg. For some reason I started to feel hypo again and

my hair began to fall out.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Do you really mean FT4 2.2? or 22?

125 mcg T4 is a lot more thyroid hormone than two measly 10 mcg tablets of T3

are likely to provide. I assume he is plans to start with 2 10mcg T3 doses and

then ramp up.

I am a bit puzzled as to why your endo is simply not trying to reproduce the

healthy feeling that you once had on Armour by using a T4/T3 combination that

is as close to the level of T4 and T3 that you were on when you were taking

Armour - that would seem the logical approach. So, I'm not sure what the

rationale is.

Clearly, all the bases need to be checked also - iron, B12, folate etc.

If I were you I'd also want my TPO and Tg autoantibodies checked to see if my

thyroid gland was being gradually destroyed by an autoimmune reaction. Knowing

this would help me to understand if I'm likely to need more thyroid hormone over

time or not.

T3 can be used safely but it is unlikely to be of much use in the dosage your

endo is talking about. However, my biggest concern would be that this seems like

a big knee jerk reaction given that you have felt really well on natural

thyroid.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi,

>

> Do you really mean FT4 2.2? or 22?

>

> 125 mcg T4 is a lot more thyroid hormone than two measly 10 mcg tablets of T3

are likely to provide. I assume he is plans to start with 2 10mcg T3 doses and

then ramp up.

>

> I am a bit puzzled as to why your endo is simply not trying to reproduce the

healthy feeling that you once had on Armour by using a T4/T3 combination that

is as close to the level of T4 and T3 that you were on when you were taking

Armour - that would seem the logical approach. So, I'm not sure what the

rationale is.

>

> Clearly, all the bases need to be checked also - iron, B12, folate etc.

>

> If I were you I'd also want my TPO and Tg autoantibodies checked to see if my

thyroid gland was being gradually destroyed by an autoimmune reaction. Knowing

this would help me to understand if I'm likely to need more thyroid hormone over

time or not.

>

> T3 can be used safely but it is unlikely to be of much use in the dosage your

endo is talking about. However, my biggest concern would be that this seems like

a big knee jerk reaction given that you have felt really well on natural

thyroid.

>

Hi

Sorry my error, I meant 22 not 2.2. I've no idea what the Endocrinologist is

trying to do. Its a mystery to me. He seemed nonplussed that I didn't feel

well now. I am Type II diabetic as well but this is pretty much under control

at present. He asked me what I wanted to do so I said well surely you can tell

me what it's best for me to do but that I was thinking of getting another batch

of NDT and taking that again. Then he mentioned trying the T3 so I said should

I reduce my dosage of T4 and he said he wouldn't be happy for me to take both so

I should stop taking it. Are these people really trained to do the job they do?

I sometimes wonder... He said that if the T3 didn't work then he wouldn't be

able to help me so it doesn't sound as though he is going to up the dosage at

all. You wouldn't believe the problem I have had in getting the tablets even

from the hospital pharmacy. They could only supply me with 17; are they really

so unusual that they don't keep them in stock?

Sue

[Guest guest]

>

> It does sound as if it could be something to do with that batch of thyroid.

Why not just try again with a different brand - since you don't feel well

anyway, you have nothing to lose. I was only on 75mcg of Levo & have started

with 2 1/4 grains which is pretty close to 75mcg so it'll be interesting to see

at what stage I have palpitations. If you read how to take NDT in the files

again & start again. Plus remember there are other factors to take into

consideration like what your bloods are - ferritin, copper, D3, magnesium, zinc,

B12, folate, potassium. I try to eat foods that contain these each day but I'm

getting them checked soon to double check.

>

> Also a major factor for me is diet - if I eat foods with sugar, coffee or even

too many nuts I feel a very definite dip in energy.

>

> Hope you get sorted - let me know how you get on.

>

> Dorothy

>

>

> because I used to take 125 of Levothyroxine I maybe should take more - not

because I felt unwell. Anyway I got palpitations so went back down to 1 grain

(60mg). It was after taking this last batch of Thiroyd for about three months

that the problems started.

>

Hi again Dorothy, I read a conversion chart recently which said that 125 mcg was

equivalent to approximately 1.5 grain of Armour so I was probably

under-medicated before when I was taking just 1 grain. Looking back I think I

did used to take 1.5 grains but last year I had a dreadful year; I was diagnosed

with breast cancer in August and things just went from bad to worse. I refused

chemo because I had very major surgery (11 hour operation) and wasn't recovered

enough to have it at the time they wanted me to have it. So at least I know

that it wasn't any chemical treatment that caused the drop in thyroid levels. I

think with all the trauma I just forgot how much I was supposed to be taking. I

think I've almost decided that I will get some more NDT and take 1.5 grains and

see what happens. I have to go back to the hospital in 6 weeks but I honestly

don't think giving me 20mcg of T3 is going to do anything at all. He said that

he wouldn't be able to test for TSH but that didn't matter because it was the T3

that had the most effect. I just get so fed up; why can't they make me feel wide

awake and well again?

I am diabetic as well so am all too familiar with the sugar slump. The chances

of me getting tests for all those things, copper, ferretin etc via my GP is

non-existent I would have thought. He gets quite stroppy with me if I show any

kind of initiative about any of my health conditions.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sue - I'm so sorry to hear about your episode with cancer & trust that you

are now cancer free. That could of course explain your general ill health & why

the thyroid medication wasn't working so well. GPs generally do not take well

to being told what bloods to check for & I'm afraid my option was to get them

done privately.

If I were you I would go with the NDT & just try again though I think with your

previous history you really ought to be under a DRs guidance -perhaps you could

try a private clinic who will treat with NDT - I know it's expensive but I'd

rather do without a holiday or something & have my health.

Take care & let me know how you get on,

Dorothy

[Guest guest]

__ Hi again

Dorothy, I read a conversion chart recently which said that 125 mcg was

equivalent to approximately 1.5 grain of Armour so I was probably

under-medicated before when I was taking just 1 grain.

There is no way you can try to find the equivalent natural

thyroid hormone medication to any amount of levothyroxine. thyroxine is a

mainly inactive hormone that does little to nothing on its own until it has

converted to the active thyroid hormone T3. With natural thyroid extract, there

is also T4, T3, T2, T1 and calcitonin (plus other unspecified enzymes). Never try

to do a calculation between natural versus synthetic thyroxine-only.

Looking back I think I did used to take 1.5

grains but last year I had a dreadful year; I was diagnosed with breast cancer

in August and things just went from bad to worse. I refused chemo because I had

very major surgery (11 hour operation) and wasn't recovered enough to have it

at the time they wanted me to have it. So at least I know that it wasn't any

chemical treatment that caused the drop in thyroid levels. I think with all the

trauma I just forgot how much I was supposed to be taking. I think I've almost

decided that I will get some more NDT and take 1.5 grains and see what happens.

Sorry to hear about your traumatic year Suzie and hope this year

will be much better. Please check out the FILES section accessible from the

Home Page of this forum web site http://health.groups.com.group/thyroid treatment

and click FILES in the Menu. On the Page that opens, click the FOLDER entitled

'All Natural Thyroid Extract' and on the list there, open the document entitled

'How to Use Natural Thyroid Extract' and follow the instructions there and

titrate your dose according to what is recommended,. Read everything there so

you fully understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.

I have to go back to the hospital in 6 weeks

but I honestly don't think giving me 20mcg of T3 is going to do anything at

all. He said that he wouldn't be able to test for TSH but that didn't matter

because it was the T3 that had the most effect. I just get so fed up; why can't

they make me feel wide awake and well again?

Probably the 20mcgs T3 will not do anything if that dose is not

increased, but it is a start and you should be able to increase this very

quickly if you have no adverse reaction. There is no point in taking natural

thyroid extract if all your body needs is the active T3. There is no point in

testing TSH when anybody is taking T3 as your TSH will be suppressed and as

long as you take T3, will remain suppressed. Many people do brilliantly on T3

only. Split your dose twice a day because taking too much at one time can cause

a peak in the blood a couple to four hours after taking it and the experience

for some people can alarm them, so avoid that. The higher your dose goes, the

more times you can split the dose throughout the day. Unless you try the

experiment Suzie, you will not know whether this will work or not.

I am diabetic as well so am all too familiar with the sugar slump. The chances

of me getting tests for all those things, copper, ferritin etc via my GP is

non-existent I would have thought. He gets quite stroppy with me if I show any

kind of initiative about any of my health conditions.

With such GP's. don't even give them the chance to be stroppy.

Write a letter to him and simply state that you wish your ferritin, vitamin

B12, vitamin D3, magnesium, folate, copper and zinc to be tested because if any

of these specific minerals and vitamins are found to be low in the reference

range, no amount of thyroid hormone is able to be fully utilised at the

cellular level. Be one step ahead of him if you feel he is likely to turn round

and tell you that there is no connection between these minerals or vitamin levels and

hypothyroidism, and print off the following few references to research/studies

done to show there is a connection. Enclose it with your letter of request.

Send a copy to the Head of Practice and ask for your letter and

the enclosure to be placed into your medical notes and then ask him to let you

know when these tests can be done.

Show your GP that YOU are the boss and that this is YOUR health.

Sadly, too many of us allow doctors to run our life and make us afraid to

discuss anything with them, but this is our fault.

" Low

iron/ferritin: Iron deficiency is shown to significantly reduce T4 to T3 conversion,

increase reverse T3 levels, and block the thermogenic (metabolism boosting)

properties of thyroid hormone (1-4). Thus, iron deficiency, as indicated by an

iron saturation below 25 or a ferritin below 70, will result in diminished

intracellular T3 levels. Additionally, T4 should not be considered adequate

thyroid replacement if iron deficiency is present (1-4)).

1.

Dillman E, Gale C, Green W, et al. Hypothermia in iron

deficiency due to altered triiodithyroidine metabolism. Regulatory, Integrative

and Comparative Physiology 1980;239(5):377-R381.

2.

SM, PE, Lukaski HC. In vitro hepatic

thyroid hormone deiodination in iron-deficient rats: effect of dietary fat.

Life Sci 1993;53(8):603-9.

3.

Zimmermann MB, Köhrle J. The Impact of Iron and Selenium

Deficiencies on Iodine and Thyroid Metabolism: Biochemistry and Relevance to

Public Health. Thyroid 2002;12(10): 867-78.

4.

Beard J, tobin B, Green W. Evidence for Thyroid Hormone

Deficiency in Iron-Deficient Anemic Rats. J. Nutr. 1989;119:772-778.

Low vitamin B12: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18655403

Low vitamin D3: http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/3/329

and http://www.goodhormonehealth.com/VitaminD.pdf

Low magnesium: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC292768/pdf/jcinvest00264-0105.pdf

Low folate: http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/47/9/1738

and http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/thy.1999.9.1163

Low  copper http://www.ithyroid.com/copper.htm

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm

http://www.ithyroid.com/copper.htm

http://www.rjpbcs.com/pdf/2011_2(2)/68.pdf

http://ajplegacy.physiology.org/content/171/3/652.extract

Low zinc:http://www.istanbul.edu.tr/ffdbiyo/current4/07%20Iham%20AM%C4%B0R.pdf

and http://articles.webraydian.com/article1648-Role_of_Zinc_and_Copper_in_Effective_Thyroid_Function.html

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Sue - I'm so sorry to hear about your episode with cancer & trust that you

are now cancer free. That could of course explain your general ill health & why

the thyroid medication wasn't working so well. GPs generally do not take well

to being told what bloods to check for & I'm afraid my option was to get them

done privately.

>

> If I were you I would go with the NDT & just try again though I think with

your previous history you really ought to be under a DRs guidance -perhaps you

could try a private clinic who will treat with NDT - I know it's expensive but

I'd rather do without a holiday or something & have my health.

>

> Take care & let me know how you get on,

>

> Dorothy

>

Hi Dorothy, thanks for your good wishes. My health has been fine up until the

last 3 months or so. I was energetic and getting plenty of exercise and eating

really well. Since this last batch of medication I have felt sluggish,

depressed, tired, hair falling, craving all the wrong foods, not wanting to do

any exercise etc. I wish it was as simple as going without a holiday or

something to get the tests done privately but I really can't afford to do this

(I struggle to find the money for the NDT plus shipping and customs charges) so

I guess I'll have to take pot luck with the T3 and if that doesn't work then try

NDT again but using the instructions on here about dosage.

Sue