Re: T4/T3 Combination question

[Guest guest]

If you have a high TSH, then yes, taking combination T4/T3

either synthetic or natural thyroid extract in the correct dosage will suppress

your TSH. People who take such medication can often have a TSH level of 1.0 or

even less, but this is quite normal even if doctors don't think it is.

When the pituitary recognises that there is insufficient thyroid

hormone in the blood, it starts to secrete TSH to tell the thyroid gland to get

on with the job it is supposed to be doing, i.e. secreting thyroxine and a

small measure of T3 - so at that time, the TSH rises. However, there is

absolutely no need for the pituitary to secrete any TSH if it recognises that

there is sufficient thyroid hormone in the blood, so it doesn't secrete any TSH,

and the level of TSH reduces, or even become suppressed. This should NOT worry

the doctor, he should be pleased about this. The only time a doctor should

worry is if your TSH becomes suppressed and is accompanied by high levels of

free T4 and free T3, which would mean you could be going hyperthyroid.

I am taking T4/T3 combination in natural thyroid extract and my

TSH is ALWAYS suppressed, but this is very normal and I am very well and my TSH

has been suppressed in this way for 8 years.

Luv - Sheila

Hi, can anyone tell me if you start a T4/T3

combination will it affect your TSH result and if so how.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Sheila,

that answers my question.Just going though all my options as after 3 years still

having problems felling normal.Dr has just put me on HRT and i'm waiting to see

how that goes.Been on HRT for 3 weeks now ,so it's to early yet to know how that

will pan out,but had a small improvement.I swing from feeling overactive to

underactive but never feel well

Best Wishes Helen,

>

> If you have a high TSH, then yes, taking combination T4/T3 either synthetic

> or natural thyroid extract in the correct dosage will suppress your TSH.

Moderated to remove old messages

>

Thanks Sheila, that answers my question.Just going though all my options as

after 3 years still having problems felling normal.Dr has just put me on HRT and

i'm waiting to see how that goes.Been on HRT for 3 weeks now ,so it's to early

yet to know how that will pan out,but had a small improvement.I swing from

feeling overactive to underactive but never feel well.Best Wishes Helen,

[Guest guest]

I hope the HRT isn't premarin, I can't remember where I read it, but it is

supposed to be the worst one for interacting with thyroid hormones.....

The extra estrogen binds the carriers effectively giving you less hormone in

your blood.

http://endocrine-system.emedtv.com/levothyroxine/drug-interactions-with-levothyr\

oxine-p3.html

Have you checked your progesterone amounts? you may need progesterone, not

estrogen as estrogen can dominate.... also Have you checked your adrenal

status with a saliva test?

.

>

..Been on HRT for 3 weeks now ,so it's to early yet to know how that will pan

out,but had a small improvement.I swing from feeling overactive to underactive

but never feel well

>

> Best Wishes Helen,

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I hope the HRT isn't premarin, I can't remember where I read it, but it is

supposed to be the worst one for interacting with thyroid hormones.....

The extra estrogen binds the carriers effectively giving you less hormone in

your blood.

Hi ,

HRT is Premique not had problems with it up to now so i'll see how it goes.Not

Had Saliva test ,thought i did have adrenal problems but i went through a bad

spell of not being able to sleep which run me down .Got my sleep back to a more

normal pattern and started taking nutri adrenal extra.I've been on thyroxine

for just over 3 years,i seem to go for months with no improvement and then out

of the blue things improve,this has been going on from the start of going on

thyroxine.At first i had trouble tolerating 25mg stuck at it then it was 50mg

then 75mg.I take just over 75mg now but i'm at my limit now with TSH around 0.5

to 0.30.Just keep looking for the answer,sometimes i think if i wait long enough

it may put it's self right with the improvements i have, but how long will that

take it's been just over 3years now.Thanks for your help.

Helen

[Ed]

[Guest guest]

The way that premarin is produced is horrendous and whatever its effects should

be banned.

>

> I hope the HRT isn't premarin, I can't remember where I read it, but it is

supposed to be the worst one for interacting with thyroid hormones.....

>

[Guest guest]

Helen, has your GP tested you to see whether you have antibodies

to your thyroid. Ask for your TPO and TgAb to be tested. Always get your

results from your doctor together with the reference range for each test done

and post them here on the forum so we can help with their interpretation.

Doctors will tell you that you are 'normal' if your results appear anywhere

within the reference range.

Luv - Sheila

that answers my question.Just going though all my options as after 3 years

still having problems felling normal.Dr has just put me on HRT and i'm waiting

to see how that goes.Been on HRT for 3 weeks now ,so it's to early yet to know

how that will pan out,but had a small improvement.I swing from feeling

overactive to underactive but never feel well

[Guest guest]

>

> Helen, has your GP tested you to see whether you have antibodies to your

> thyroid. Ask for your TPO and TgAb to be tested. Always get your results

> from your doctor together with the reference range for each test done and

> post them here on the forum so we can help with their interpretation.

> Doctors will tell you that you are 'normal' if your results appear anywhere

> within the reference range.

>

> Luv - Sheila

Hi Sheila, yes i have antibodies,that's how i found out i had Thyroid problems.I

have had a lot of trouble with migraine, my ears and balance( by trouble i was

in bed for up 5 days at a time ,my head was spinning so much i was hagging on

the chairs to get to the bathroom), i was under the ENT at the hospital and they

found antibodies in my blood.Just been under an endo(that was an absolute waste

of time),he talked me into lowering my dose, i did not want to do be i though if

he could see how bad thing were when i lower my thyroxine he would help me, he

did sent me to chronic fatigue syndrome clinic.I told the DR as soon as i walked

in i had not got it, and when tested she agreed,at least she did try to resolve

some of my issues with my sleep so some good came out of it,and she talked me

through HRT and to give it a try.Things are a lot better that they were but i'm

still not there yet but i keep marching on and trying whatever i can.I did want

to try the T4/T3 combo bet the endo was having none of that,i could not convince

him to let me try it.Thanks for your Help Helen,

>

>

>

>

>

> that answers my question.Just going though all my options as after 3 years

> still having problems felling normal.Dr has just put me on HRT and i'm

> waiting to see how that goes.Been on HRT for 3 weeks now ,so it's to early

> yet to know how that will pan out,but had a small improvement.I swing from

> feeling overactive to underactive but never feel well

>

[Guest guest]

Does the level of T4 in the blood cause the TSH to rise or fall, or is it only

the level of T3 that makes the TSH adjust?

Miriam

> When the pituitary recognises that there is insufficient thyroid hormone in

the blood, it starts to secrete TSH to tell the thyroid gland to get on with the

job it is supposed to be doing, i.e. secreting thyroxine and a small measure of

T3 - so at that time, the TSH rises. However, there is absolutely no need for

the pituitary to secrete any TSH if it recognises that there is sufficient

thyroid hormone in the blood, so it doesn't secrete any TSH, and the level of

TSH reduces, or even become suppressed.

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

Yes it is horrendous - but I have said before now that I was in a terrible state after a hysterectomy at the age of 33 and was 'allergic or unable to tolerate' any other HRT but premarin because it is more natural. So don't be too down on this product because it is the ERFA or Armour of the HRT world.

and yes I do know how it is produced....................

best wishes

Mandy

[Guest guest]

Helen, I would

recommend that you buy Dr Kharrazian's book " Why Do I still have Symptoms

when my lab Tests are Normal. He says that those with Hashimoto's must go on a

gluten free diet and should be treated with the thyroid hormone T3 and not T4.

See http://www.thyroidbook.com/

Luv - Sheil

Hi Sheila, yes i have antibodies,that's how i found out i had Thyroid

problems.I have had a lot of trouble with migraine, my ears and balance( by

trouble i was in bed for up 5 days at a time ,my head was spinning so much i

was hagging on the chairs to get to the bathroom), i was under the ENT at the

hospital and they found antibodies in my blood.Just been under an endo(that was

an absolute waste of time),he talked me into lowering my dose, i did not want

to do be i though if he could see how bad thing were when i lower my thyroxine

he would help me, he did sent me to chronic fatigue syndrome clinic.I told the

DR as soon as i walked in i had not got it, and when tested she agreed,at least

she did try to resolve some of my issues with my sleep so some good came out of

it,and she talked me through HRT and to give it a try.Things are a lot better

that they were but i'm still not there yet but i keep marching on and trying whatever

i can.I did want to try the T4/T3 combo bet the endo was having none of that,i

could not convince him to let me try it.Thanks for your Help Helen,

[Guest guest]

>

> Helen, I would recommend that you buy Dr Kharrazian's book " Why Do I still

> have Symptoms when my lab Tests are Normal. He says that those with

> Hashimoto's must go on a gluten free diet and should be treated with the

> thyroid hormone T3 and not T4. See http://www.thyroidbook.com/

>

> Luv - Sheil

>

>

> Hi Sheila, yes i have antibodies,that's how i found out i had Thyroid

> problems.I have had a lot of trouble with migraine, my ears and balance( by

> trouble i was in bed for up 5 days at a time ,my head was spinning so much i

> was hagging on the chairs to get to the bathroom), i was under the ENT at

> the hospital and they found antibodies in my blood.Just been under an

> endo(that was an absolute waste of time),he talked me into lowering my dose,

> i did not want to do be i though if he could see how bad thing were when i

> lower my thyroxine he would help me, he did sent me to chronic fatigue

> syndrome clinic.I told the DR as soon as i walked in i had not got it, and

> when tested she agreed,at least she did try to resolve some of my issues

> with my sleep so some good came out of it,and she talked me through HRT and

> to give it a try.Things are a lot better that they were but i'm still not

> there yet but i keep marching on and trying whatever i can.I did want to try

> the T4/T3 combo bet the endo was having none of that,i could not convince

> him to let me try it.Thanks for your Help Helen,

>

Hi Shiela, thanks for that,i'll be buying the book(Looks interesting).I'll let

you know how i get on with it.your a saint do you know that shiela,what would we

do what out you . love Helen

[Guest guest]

Hi Miriam

According to some of dr khariiazan's quotes the t3 makes no difference to the

tsh....

I believe this is wrong.....

I have two sets of blood tests and on the second one I've increased the free t4

from 9 to 13 and I've decreased the Free t3 from 7 to 4.8. And the tsh has

doubled from 0.01 to 0.02. so increasing t4 and decreasing t3 made the tsh

increase.

If free t3 made no difference to tsh then increasing the t4 would not have made

the tsh get bigger, it would have made it smaller....

.

>

> Does the level of T4 in the blood cause the TSH to rise or fall, or is it only

the level of T3 that makes the TSH adjust?

>

[Guest guest]

If you have higher levels than normal of T4, this would cause

your TSH to fall because the pituitary recognises there is sufficient thyroxine

in the blood. If the level of T4 falls below normal, your pituitary would

then secrete more TSH to tell the thyroid to start secreting more T4, so the

TSH level would rise.

Luv - Sheila

Does the level of T4 in the blood cause the TSH

to rise or fall, or is it only the level of T3 that makes the TSH adjust?

Miriam

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[Guest guest]

But my TSH rose when the free T4 was increased.

This would imply that TSH is more controlled by Free T3, because the free t3

had gone down.

(I obviously don't do that conversion thing)

>

> If you have higher levels than normal of T4, this would cause your TSH to

> fall because the pituitary recognises there is sufficient thyroxine in the

> blood. If the level of T4 falls below normal, your pituitary would then

> secrete more TSH to tell the thyroid to start secreting more T4, so the TSH

> level would rise.

>

> Luv - Sheila

>

> Does the level of T4 in the blood cause the TSH to rise or fall, or is it

> only the level of T3 that makes the TSH adjust?

>

> Miriam

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

That's why you are taking T3 . If you didn't take the T3

before you had your blood drawn to test your levels, that could cause your TSH

to rise slightly, though it takes quite a while for TSH to show any changes so

that would be unusual. However, you can be unusual *grin* as I have found

*another grin!*.

Luv - Sheila

But my TSH rose when the free T4 was increased.

This would imply that TSH is more controlled by Free T3, because the free t3

had gone down.

(I obviously don't do that conversion thing)

>

> If you have higher levels than normal of T4, this would cause your TSH to

> fall because the pituitary recognises there is sufficient thyroxine in the

> blood. If the level of T4 falls below normal, your pituitary would then

> secrete more TSH to tell the thyroid to start secreting more T4, so the

TSH

> level would rise.

>

> Luv - Sheila

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks. Presumably T3 has more effect on TSH levels than T4 does, as we are

always hearing that T3-containing medication (such as Cytomel or Armour)

" suppress " the TSH? It is interesting to hear that T4 has some effect,

nevertheless.

Miriam

> If you have higher levels than normal of T4, this would cause your TSH to fall

because the pituitary recognises there is sufficient thyroxine in the blood. If

the level of T4 falls below normal, your pituitary would then secrete more TSH

to tell the thyroid to start secreting more T4, so the TSH level would rise.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lilian, it is nothing to do with any 'effect' that T4 has, it

actually has little effect, it has to convert in the liver, kidneys, skin,

brain and many other thyroid hormone receptors throughout the body into the

active T3. Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) doesn't rise and fall according to

the 'effect' T4 has in the body, it rises and falls according TO HOW HIGH OR

LOW the T4 level is in the blood. It's just the same with T3 - TSH responds to

the LEVEL of T3 that is in the blood, NOT the effect that T3 has in the body.

It all sounds extremely complicated and it is difficult to put

this into simple language for us all to understand, but I guess somebody will

be along and put it in a better way - there must be a good analogy, but my

brain is too tired to think as it has been working over time these past 7 days.

Luv - Sheila

Thanks. Presumably T3 has more effect on TSH

levels than T4 does, as we are always hearing that T3-containing medication

(such as Cytomel or Armour) " suppress " the TSH? It is interesting to

hear that T4 has some effect, nevertheless.

Miriam

> If you have higher levels than normal of T4, this would cause your TSH to

fall because the pituitary recognises there is sufficient thyroxine in the

blood. If the level of T4 falls below normal, your pituitary would then secrete

more TSH to tell the thyroid to start secreting more T4, so the TSH level would

rise.

[Guest guest]

>

> Helen, I would recommend that you buy Dr Kharrazian's book " Why Do I still

> have Symptoms when my lab Tests are Normal. He says that those with

> Hashimoto's must go on a gluten free diet and should be treated with the

> thyroid hormone T3 and not T4. See http://www.thyroidbook.com/

>

> Luv - Sheil

>

>

> Hi Sheila, yes i have antibodies,that's how i found out i had Thyroid

> problems.I have had a lot of trouble with migraine, my ears and balance( by

[Guest guest]

Then definitely try a gluten free diet - this can have an almost

miraculous effect.

Luv - Sheila

>

> Helen, I would recommend that you buy Dr Kharrazian's book " Why Do I

still

> have Symptoms when my lab Tests are Normal. He says that those with

> Hashimoto's must go on a gluten free diet and should be treated with the

> thyroid hormone T3 and not T4. See http://www.thyroidbook.com/

>

> Luv - Sheil

>

>

> Hi Sheila, yes i have antibodies,that's how i found out i had Thyroid

> problems.I have had a lot of trouble with migraine, my ears and balance(

by

[Guest guest]

I would go back to the endo, if you have been compliant with his requests and the CFS doc agrees you dont have that then you need to persevere with your thyroid treatment.

I had migraines for 33years, I had to stop drinking alcohol as a results and my ears have been a problem for that length of time too. In the last year I have not experienced migraine, this was reducing as my thyroid support was improving. The ears Have improved indeed they got better, but have slightly returned BUT nowhere near as bad a sthey were. All to do with thyroid...and ears can also be a combination of thyroid and Candida.

By the way I can now din alcohol again after 28years of not doing so.

sally xx

yes i have antibodies,that's how i found out i had Thyroid problems.I have had a lot of trouble with migraine, my ears and balance( by trouble i was in bed for up 5 days at a time ,my head was spinning so much i was hagging on the chairs to get to the bathroom), i was under the ENT at the hospital and they found antibodies in my blood.Just been under an endo(that was an absolute waste of time),he talked me into lowering my dose, i did not want to do be i though if he could see how bad thing were when i lower my thyroxine he would help me, he did sent me to chronic fatigue syndrome clinic.I told the DR as soon as i walked in i had not got it, and when tested she agreed,at least she did try to resolve some of my issues with my sleep so some good came out of it,and she talked me through HRT and to give it a try.Things are a lot better that they were but i'm still not there yet but i keep marching on and trying whatever i can.I did want to try

the T4/T3 combo bet the endo was having none of that,i could not convince him to let me try it.Thanks for your Help Helen,

[Guest guest]

The presence of Thyroid hormone both T3 and T4 will affect the level of TSH. they work like a seesaw as the level of thyroid hormone in the blood rises the level of TSH falls. This is called the negative feedback loop for this very reason. Sally xx

Does the level of T4 in the blood cause the TSH to rise or fall, or is it only the level of T3 that makes the TSH adjust?Miriam> When the pituitary recognises that there is insufficient thyroid hormone in the blood, it starts to secrete TSH to tell the thyroid gland to get on with the job it is supposed to be doing, i.e. secreting thyroxine and a small measure of T3 - so at that time, the TSH rises. However, there is absolutely no need for the pituitary to secrete any TSH if it recognises that there is sufficient thyroid hormone in the blood, so it doesn't secrete any TSH, and the level of TSH reduces, or even become suppressed.