Re: Tetanus Discussion/Propaganda

[Guest guest]

Well from what I've read the treatment for tetanus IS extremely drastic. I

think that part of the article is valid.

~Kelli

> Professional Treatment:

> Children and adults with tetanus infections are treated in a hospital,

> usually in an intensive care unit. They receive antibiotics to kill

tetanus

> bacteria, and antitoxin to neutralize the toxin. They also receive

medicines

> to control muscle spasms, and medicines to stop the abnormal nerve

activity

> that would otherwise cause disturbances in heartbeat, blood pressure and

> body temperature. "

> [scare tactics all the way!]

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kelli -

OK - I'll go with you on that one, and I don't dispute that if a

Doctor gets ahold of you with a systemic infection from a wound and

you are not vaccinated for tetanus - he will throw you in IC and pull

out all the stops.

My only point in writing was to look at the entirety of the piece

they send out to parents - what they put in it and why. They left

out so much relevant information you would need to be " fully informed "

on vaccination, that I say they have an agenda. Including the

statement they way they did on the dire outcome, in my book, was done

as a scare tactic to convince you that you will die without it, and I

think that overstates their case.

> Well from what I've read the treatment for tetanus IS extremely

drastic. I

> think that part of the article is valid.

>

> ~Kelli

>

> > Professional Treatment:

> > Children and adults with tetanus infections are treated in a

hospital,

> > usually in an intensive care unit. They receive antibiotics to

kill

> tetanus

> > bacteria, and antitoxin to neutralize the toxin. They also receive

> medicines

> > to control muscle spasms, and medicines to stop the abnormal nerve

> activity

> > that would otherwise cause disturbances in heartbeat, blood

pressure and

> > body temperature. "

> > [scare tactics all the way!]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

a

> Doctor gets ahold of you with a systemic infection from a wound and

> you are not vaccinated for tetanus - he will throw you in IC and pull

> out all the stops.

I agree that this is the reality. All the hydrogen peroxide and homeopathy

in the world isn't going to help then! (In all seriousness, I know you need

to manage the wound properly before this happens, but you can't control

every situation and what if you DO find yourself in that kind of a mess)?

This isn't going to be a time where I'd be signing a waiver against the

treatment either. That's one part of why I have a hard time rejecting this

shot.

Anyone else?

~Kelli

[Guest guest]

Guys, what y'all are saying sounds lovely, BUT what about the Tetanus Toxoid

Vaccination overview by Dr. Gaublomme?

Just for a moment, let's pretend that the Tetanus vaccine is safe...

How do you feel when you hear him say that antibody levels do not rise until

4 days after vaccination, so vaccination at the time of injury is of no use?

And what about the question that if contracting Tetanus cannot induce

immunity - then how can a vaccine?

What about the study where healthy persons were given a Tetanus booster and

then a significan decrease in the T4/T8 ratio was observed? This is a

situation often observed in AIDS patients or in persons at risk for the

condition.

I'm just not seeing any benefit. And since there is overwhelming evidence

that the vaccine is unsafe - why submit to something for no gain and yet a

hec of alot risk?

And what about Dr. Mendelsohn (best damn doctor in the world) saying that

Tetanus caused so many reactions that it had to be " watered down " and yet the

vaccine remains strong enough to still cause harm?

I have a really bad headache, so I think I'll stop here. Wanna hear your

thoughts.

[Guest guest]

At 10:54 AM 04/23/2001 -0700, you wrote:

>a

>> Doctor gets ahold of you with a systemic infection from a wound and

>> you are not vaccinated for tetanus - he will throw you in IC and pull

>> out all the stops.

>

>I agree that this is the reality. All the hydrogen peroxide and homeopathy

>in the world isn't going to help then! (In all seriousness, I know you need

>to manage the wound properly before this happens, but you can't control

>every situation and what if you DO find yourself in that kind of a mess)?

>This isn't going to be a time where I'd be signing a waiver against the

>treatment either. That's one part of why I have a hard time rejecting this

>shot.

>

>Anyone else?

>

>~Kelli

So, did you read the CDC info and the cases?

I wouldn't got near the vaccine with my life. You know you can't vaccinate

away all risk in life. You are at greater risk to be struck by lightning -

what are you going to do about that? Never let your child go outside or

near a window in a storm?

What about riding in a car - I bet far greater risk there - no vaccine for

it either.

I only saw one case of tetanus in my nursing career - a woman from Mexico -

she recovered. And I lived and worked in San Diego near the border of

Mexico and anyone from Mexico with lifethreatening things would come to the

university hospital there. So why weren't there more cases of tetanus in

Tijuana????? Makes you wonder.

All I know is that I know many people now who wish they could take that

shot out of themselves and their children.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks tte - some interesting points you have. Kelli, you still with

us? We haven't heard from you yet! I KNOW you got some thoughts on my

most recent e-mail.

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Tetanus Discussion/Propaganda

> At 10:54 AM 04/23/2001 -0700, you wrote:

> >a

> >> Doctor gets ahold of you with a systemic infection from a wound and

> >> you are not vaccinated for tetanus - he will throw you in IC and pull

> >> out all the stops.

> >

> >I agree that this is the reality. All the hydrogen peroxide and

homeopathy

> >in the world isn't going to help then! (In all seriousness, I know you

need

> >to manage the wound properly before this happens, but you can't control

> >every situation and what if you DO find yourself in that kind of a mess)?

> >This isn't going to be a time where I'd be signing a waiver against the

> >treatment either. That's one part of why I have a hard time rejecting

this

> >shot.

> >

> >Anyone else?

> >

> >~Kelli

>

> So, did you read the CDC info and the cases?

> I wouldn't got near the vaccine with my life. You know you can't

vaccinate

> away all risk in life. You are at greater risk to be struck by

lightning -

> what are you going to do about that? Never let your child go outside or

> near a window in a storm?

> What about riding in a car - I bet far greater risk there - no vaccine for

> it either.

>

>

Yes, Sheri, I've read the CDC info and ALL the info on Tetanus on your

website and everywhere else I can get my hands on information. I've been

reading about this almost daily for 2 years now.

Sometimes I get the feeling that you think that with enough information we

will all come to the same conclusions about this issue that you have (unless

we are idiots). I LOVE your passion and strong opinions about this issue,

and I appreciate how much work you put into this list and how frustrating it

must be to know so much about a topic and see others floundering and getting

hurt for lack of information. I have the SAME feeling everyday.

But I think the strength of a list like this is to provide opinions, share

information and SUPPORT each other in coming to their OWN CONCLUSIONS. Do

you see it that way as well?

I know you can't " vaccinate all risk in life away " . The entire point of the

other post I made:

(I have no doubt that some people will react to some vaccines. It would be

> >best if vaccines were like homeopathy and could truly do no harm ever.

But

> >the truth is some things in life are not going to be 100% safe for

everyone.

> >I don't think the next logical step is to say NEVER use something that

> >isn't 100% safe all the time. Does that make sense?)

> >

was to say that you can't avoid risk.

We all have to make our own decisions about the risks we take and then live

with the consequences. Don't you agree?

~Kelli

> >

> >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------------

> Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

> Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

> 530-478-1242 Voicemail

> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

> women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

> ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

> DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

> Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

> International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

> Education, Homeopathic Education

> CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth, I thought what said made sense. It would not be

unreasonable to risk a vaccine if that risk really were smaller than the

risk presented by the disease, for instance. And there are some reasonable

people who feel that the tetanus vaccine is low-risk. I.e. Wootan,

who does not recommend any other vaccine in his book _Take Charge of YOur

Child's Health_.

tte

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[Guest guest]

Can't answer all your questions, but do have some thoughts. Please don't

yell at me y'all -- I am just trying to find my way in the darkness here.

>Guys, what y'all are saying sounds lovely, BUT what about the Tetanus

>Toxoid

>Vaccination overview by Dr. Gaublomme?

I have read that article, and I'm not sure what to make of it. LOTS of

references -- has anyone here checked them?

I have read elsewhere (from an author I trust, not the CDC website!) that

the vaccine is very effective and that there are no reports of deaths due to

tetanus toxoid; that nervous system complications occur on the order of 0.4

cases per million doses. This is a risk, to be sure, but perhaps for some an

acceptable one?

I have no way to judge many of the opinions and citations in Gaublomme's

article. However, there were a couple of references to things I'd read about

before, and which I feel could be interpreted somewhat differently. For

instance, he refers to 12 cases of tetanus during WWII, when most soldiers

were vaccinated, as if this is prima facie proof that the vaccine is not

effective. But this is 12 cases among 2,734,819 hospital admissions for

wounds and injuries. The incidence of tetanus was much higher in WWI, when

they were giving antitoxin to wounded soldiers on the battlefield. No one

is claiming that this vaccine is failsafe. But 12 cases out of that many

injuries seems consistent with the 95 percent effectiveness that is claimed

for it.

>How do you feel when you hear him say that antibody levels do not rise

>until

>4 days after vaccination, so vaccination at the time of injury is of no

>use?

I am curious what kind of crazy doctor would give the vaccine at the time of

injury. It was my understanding that if you are unvaccinated and have a

tetanus-prone injury, they give you tetanus antitoxin (immune globulin), not

vaccine. A doc who gives the vaccine after injury is wrong even by the

standards of her/his own profession.

>

>And what about the question that if contracting Tetanus cannot induce

>immunity - then how can a vaccine?

Now this question is beyond my expertise. Presumably some vaccine

researcher has an answer to it -- I would love to hear it.

>And what about Dr. Mendelsohn (best damn doctor in the world) saying that

>Tetanus caused so many reactions that it had to be " watered down " and yet

>the

>vaccine remains strong enough to still cause harm?

I too love Dr. Mendelsohn, and take what he wrote seriously. I tis also

true that in the twenties, the CDC estimates that there were something like

1000 cases of tetanus per year , and now there are what, 50? I must admit

that these numbers don't seem all that impressive to me. Could certainly be

accounted for by other factors.

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[Guest guest]

HolisticMomma-

Great points! Thank you for bringing up concrete items like this! It's

really helpful to debate these things out point by point.

BTW HolisticMomma, I have an e-mail under construction for you that I'm

working on- you'd asked me a couple of days ago what I thought about the

article you posted, and I'm trying to dissect my thoughts on it and write

them all out, but it's harder than I thought for me to articulate all the

complexities. Anyway I'll post that as soon as I can. In the mean time

addressing all of these points is very helpful for me- I'll give it a whirl

and see what others think...

>Guys, what y'all are saying sounds lovely, BUT what about the Tetanus

Toxoid

> Vaccination overview by Dr. Gaublomme?

>

> Just for a moment, let's pretend that the Tetanus vaccine is safe...

>

I don't even think that it's 100% safe. I just think that it's effective.

And when I weigh all the risks of doing it vs not doing it, in this case,

doing it is winning.

> How do you feel when you hear him say that antibody levels do not rise

until

> 4 days after vaccination, so vaccination at the time of injury is of no

use?

Don't rely on it that way- get the primary series and then get boosters at

not more than the recommended intervals.

>

> And what about the question that if contracting Tetanus cannot induce

> immunity - then how can a vaccine?

>

I don't how it can, but most cases of Tetanus seem to be in the non-vaxed,

incompletely

vaxed or over-vaxed.

> What about the study where healthy persons were given a Tetanus booster

and

> then a significan decrease in the T4/T8 ratio was observed? This is a

> situation often observed in AIDS patients or in persons at risk for the

> condition.

This is THE most troubling point for me about the vax without a doubt. A

have a link for that and it says that this drop is temporary. I think if

you vax you need to stay out of circulation a number of days though and not

expose yourself to much... Here's the link:

> http://www.oneflesh.org/Child-chap%2011.html

>

> I'm just not seeing any benefit. And since there is overwhelming evidence

> that the vaccine is unsafe - why submit to something for no gain and yet a

> hec of alot risk?

I am also considering the risk of not doing it and then needing the hospital

but not wanting their drastic treatments (TIG, any of the things they will

do to you if you are unvaxed for tetanus and have a systemic infection, or

the treatment for the disease itself). lots of plusses there, I think

>

> And what about Dr. Mendelsohn (best damn doctor in the world) saying that

> Tetanus caused so many reactions that it had to be " watered down " and yet

the

> vaccine remains strong enough to still cause harm?

>

That is the only place I've found that info actually. I've never been able

to find a sourse for it. Would love it if you have it.

> I have a really bad headache, so I think I'll stop here. Wanna hear your

> thoughts.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kelli,

I agree with you, I love Sheri's passion, strong opinions and commitment to

these issues and the list.....

I also agree with your description of this list (see below). I think that is a

perfect description of it mostly! :-)

(But I think the strength of a list like this is to provide opinions, share

information and SUPPORT each other in coming to their OWN CONCLUSIONS.)

Sue, mum to Ruby (23 months)

Wales, UK

[Guest guest]

At 08:31 PM 04/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>For what it's worth, I thought what said made sense. It would not be

>unreasonable to risk a vaccine if that risk really were smaller than the

>risk presented by the disease, for instance. And there are some reasonable

>people who feel that the tetanus vaccine is low-risk. I.e. Wootan,

>who does not recommend any other vaccine in his book _Take Charge of YOur

>Child's Health_.

>

>tte

And how do you know Wootan is reasonable?

How do you know what he has studied.

ANd why do you think the risk of the disease is more than the vaccine.

What informatin do you have.

I have tons of information on vaccine reactions from tetanus vaccine and

saw one case in my whole nursing career of what was diagnosed as tetanus!

One!

And did you read how there is NOT even a diagnostic test for tetanus? How

do we know that the few tetanus cases that are diagnosed as tetanus really

are tetanus.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

530-478-1242 Voicemail

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

>>How do you feel when you hear him say that antibody levels do not rise

>>until

>>4 days after vaccination, so vaccination at the time of injury is of no

>>use?

>

>I am curious what kind of crazy doctor would give the vaccine at the time of

>injury. It was my understanding that if you are unvaccinated and have a

>tetanus-prone injury, they give you tetanus antitoxin (immune globulin), not

>vaccine. A doc who gives the vaccine after injury is wrong even by the

>standards of her/his own profession.

They do it over and over every day - I have heard this story so many times.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

530-478-1242 Voicemail

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

And many of you leaning towards tetanus vaccine assume it works. Why do

you assume that?

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

530-478-1242 Voicemail

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/hancock4.html

Tetanus vaccine

by Bronwyn Hancock

The tetanus vaccine is no more effective than any of the others. It also is

counterproductive. It will INCREASE, NOT decrease

the risk of tetanus, and many people actually get tetanus from the vaccine.

The annual REPORTED cases of tetanus in Australia don't reach double

figures (despite the fact that most people exposed

probably would have not had a booster for a long time and therefore would

be considered susceptible), and yet in my relatively

small circle of contact (compared to the country's population) I have come

across a couple of cases where immediately after the

vaccine the recipient got the classic symptoms of tetanus and it was not

reported, or even diagnosed as a possibility.

All vaccine injections are DOCUMENTED to SENSITISE the recipient.

Sensitisation is the OPPOSITE of immunisation. The

way they get their figures of 98-99%, etc " effectiveness " of the vaccine is

by checking for the presence of IgG antibodies. The

presence of these antibodies, however, does NOT mean immunity - this is a

totally false assumption. In fact they cannot even get

the body to produce any significant numbers of these WITHOUT including

those toxic, SENSITISING chemicals in the vaccine,

called adjuvants ( " Dirty Secrets " , New Scientist, Nov 1996). So the

presence of these antibodies is probably actually showing the

OPPOSITE of immunisation, i.e. that the person has been sensitised by the

vaccine. What a wonderful achievement.

So really, giving a child a tetanus vaccine is like getting them to stand

on a busy road in the hope of minimizing their chances of

getting run over. Of course this is not to mention all the other problems

the vaccine can cause, all reflecting the derailing effect on

the immune system. Only some, of course, are listed on the product insert

(included already in a recent email to this list). There is

a man I interviewed and have on the video, called Ron Lyons, who got

chronic fatigue syndrome from a tetanus vaccine, as had

his father, and then his own son (when his ex-wife vaccinated him without

Ron's consent).

Viera has come across an article in NEJM (either 1983 or 1984) where they

found the ratio of T4 to T8 cells after tetanus

vaccination to be similar to the ratio that is found in AIDS patients. The

best safeguard against illness from tetanus, apart from

general overall health, is to ensure the wound is open and clean. The

tetanus toxoid is anaerobic, so it can only proliferate in the

absence of oxygen.

Addition:

However what I also like to talk about these days in relation to tetanus I

don't seem to have included here. It is that tetanus is an

illustration of one reason that vaccines do not work.

Normally once you contract a disease and fully recover from it, you are

then immune to that specific disease for the rest of your

life. However you may have heard that this is not the case with tetanus -

on the contrary, people are actually sensitised to it, so

are in fact MORE likely to get it again in the future.

The reason for this is that since tetanus is an anaerobic bacteria, it is

hard, well I expect impossible, to contract it through a form

of exposure where it comes in through the normal portals of entry - the

mouth, the nose, the mucous membranes, the tonsils, etc.,

because that would require the bacteria surviving exposure to oxygen.

Consequently, you can only get it through some kind of injury such as a

splinter or similar where it has been able to get straight into

the body via a deep puncture wound bypassing exposure to oxygen. However

this also means that you are bypassing the natural

portals of entry, which are the outer levels of defence.

Unfortunately, the outer levels of defence have important roles in the

immune system, including crucial involvement in the process

of.... DEVELOPING IMMUNITY.

So the upshot of all that is that if the antigen is injected via a deep

puncture wound, you cannot bring immunity. On the contrary,

the effect is sensitisation. And what are vaccine injections? Why, deep

puncture wounds. Further, the sensitisation effect of

vaccines is well documented, even to the extent of being in standard

medical dictionaries.

The oral polio vaccine is not a deep puncture wound, but the magnitude of

the assault of the vaccine strain of virus (ironically more

virulent than the wild virus) with the accompanying toxins and the

interference with the gut flora, i.e. still harming the outer levels

of defence, still appears to have a sensitisation effect. Further, when you

realise that we needed vaccination to provoke polio in the

first place, with the first known outbreak not occurring until mass

smallpox vaccination 100 years ago, well then you realise that

avoiding the administration of the other vaccines almost entirely removes

any threat of polio anyway.

Regards,

Bronwyn

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

530-478-1242 Voicemail

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/tetanus.html

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/tetanus6.html

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

530-478-1242 Voicemail

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

Well, how do you know anyone is reasonable? Wootan is generally

anti-vaccination. He does not recommend any other vaccine. I tend to agree

with him on other topics, and find his book -- and in particular his

discussion of vaccination -- intelligent and well-referenced. I also found

Randall Neustaedter's book helpful, and your website, Sheri.

Speaking of Randall Neustaedter, I was rereading his section on tetanus and

here is some of what he has to say:

" There is no question that a series of tetanus toxoid injections is highly

effective at preventing tetanus... This has been documented in several large

studies during World War II, and with studies of large groups of horses.

The fact that nearly all recent tetanus cases in the United States occurred

in individuals who had not received the recommended schedule of vaccinations

provides further evidence that active immunization is extremely effective. "

Now, Neustaedter is one of the most vigorously anti-vax guys out there, and

his book recommends -none- of the vaccines it surveys (including tetanus).

Neustaedter details some bad central nervous system reactions to the shot

and cites two deaths from anaphylactic reactions, one in 1933 and one in

1973. He concludes that tetanus is not enough of a threat to justify even a

minimal risk from the vaccine. But he does concede that the vaccine is

effective. I am not saying that I know for certain that this is the case,

but I am inclined to believe it when it comes from not one but two excellent

anti-vax writers.

Whether or not you want to use it is another question, of course. I would

not presume to advise anyone to do it.

tte

>From: Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...>

>Reply-Vaccinations

>Vaccinations

>Subject: Re: Re: Tetanus Discussion/Propaganda

>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:09:02 +0100

>

>At 08:31 PM 04/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:

> >For what it's worth, I thought what said made sense. It would not

>be

> >unreasonable to risk a vaccine if that risk really were smaller than the

> >risk presented by the disease, for instance. And there are some

>reasonable

> >people who feel that the tetanus vaccine is low-risk. I.e.

>Wootan,

> >who does not recommend any other vaccine in his book _Take Charge of YOur

> >Child's Health_.

> >

> >tte

>

>And how do you know Wootan is reasonable?

>How do you know what he has studied.

>ANd why do you think the risk of the disease is more than the vaccine.

>What informatin do you have.

>I have tons of information on vaccine reactions from tetanus vaccine and

>saw one case in my whole nursing career of what was diagnosed as tetanus!

>One!

>And did you read how there is NOT even a diagnostic test for tetanus? How

>do we know that the few tetanus cases that are diagnosed as tetanus really

>are tetanus.

>--------------------------------------------------------

>Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

>Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

>530-478-1242 Voicemail

>http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

>women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

>ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

>DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

>Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

>http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

>International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

>Education, Homeopathic Education

>CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I also agree with all of the points tte has made.

~Kelli

Well, how do you know anyone is reasonable? Wootan is generally

> anti-vaccination. He does not recommend any other vaccine. I tend to

agree

> with him on other topics, and find his book -- and in particular his

> discussion of vaccination -- intelligent and well-referenced. I also found

> Randall Neustaedter's book helpful, and your website, Sheri.

>

> Speaking of Randall Neustaedter, I was rereading his section on tetanus

and

> here is some of what he has to say:

>

> " There is no question that a series of tetanus toxoid injections is highly

> effective at preventing tetanus... This has been documented in several

large

> studies during World War II, and with studies of large groups of horses.

> The fact that nearly all recent tetanus cases in the United States

occurred

> in individuals who had not received the recommended schedule of

vaccinations

> provides further evidence that active immunization is extremely

effective. "

>

> Now, Neustaedter is one of the most vigorously anti-vax guys out there,

and

> his book recommends -none- of the vaccines it surveys (including tetanus).

> Neustaedter details some bad central nervous system reactions to the shot

> and cites two deaths from anaphylactic reactions, one in 1933 and one in

> 1973. He concludes that tetanus is not enough of a threat to justify even

a

> minimal risk from the vaccine. But he does concede that the vaccine is

> effective. I am not saying that I know for certain that this is the case,

> but I am inclined to believe it when it comes from not one but two

excellent

> anti-vax writers.

>

> Whether or not you want to use it is another question, of course. I would

> not presume to advise anyone to do it.

>

> tte

>

> >From: Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...>

> >Reply-Vaccinations

> >Vaccinations

> >Subject: Re: Re: Tetanus Discussion/Propaganda

> >Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:09:02 +0100

> >

> >At 08:31 PM 04/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:

> > >For what it's worth, I thought what said made sense. It would

not

> >be

> > >unreasonable to risk a vaccine if that risk really were smaller than

the

> > >risk presented by the disease, for instance. And there are some

> >reasonable

> > >people who feel that the tetanus vaccine is low-risk. I.e.

> >Wootan,

> > >who does not recommend any other vaccine in his book _Take Charge of

YOur

> > >Child's Health_.

> > >

> > >tte

> >

> >And how do you know Wootan is reasonable?

> >How do you know what he has studied.

> >ANd why do you think the risk of the disease is more than the vaccine.

> >What informatin do you have.

> >I have tons of information on vaccine reactions from tetanus vaccine and

> >saw one case in my whole nursing career of what was diagnosed as tetanus!

> >One!

> >And did you read how there is NOT even a diagnostic test for tetanus?

How

> >do we know that the few tetanus cases that are diagnosed as tetanus

really

> >are tetanus.

> >--------------------------------------------------------

> >Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

> >Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

> >530-478-1242 Voicemail

> >http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> > " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

> >women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

> >ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE.

THE

> >DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

> >Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

> >http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

> >International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

> >Education, Homeopathic Education

> >CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In much of the reading I've done I've come across the idea of

" opportunities " to vaccinate, and the concept of reducing " missed

opportunities " to vaccinate. I think docs must be thinking along these

lines when you're there, you're injured and you are not

up to date with the shots. It's a dangerous place to be with no info, isn't

it?

~Kelli

Re: Re: Tetanus Discussion/Propaganda

>

> >>How do you feel when you hear him say that antibody levels do not rise

> >>until

> >>4 days after vaccination, so vaccination at the time of injury is of no

> >>use?

> >

> >I am curious what kind of crazy doctor would give the vaccine at the time

of

> >injury. It was my understanding that if you are unvaccinated and have a

> >tetanus-prone injury, they give you tetanus antitoxin (immune globulin),

not

> >vaccine. A doc who gives the vaccine after injury is wrong even by the

> >standards of her/his own profession.

>

> They do it over and over every day - I have heard this story so many

times.

>

> --------------------------------------------------------

> Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

> Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

> 530-478-1242 Voicemail

> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

> women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

> ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

> DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

> Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

> http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

> International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

> Education, Homeopathic Education

> CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't agree with Neustaedter either on some of his findings. I've

actually told him some things that he didn't know ;-)

You have to look at the research yourself and the reactions and the true

risk - not just take Wootan, Neustaedter, or myself as the gospel truth.

We all have been programmed about tetanus and I have come out the other

side with a very differnet perspective. I also have the perspective of

homoepathy and homeopathic treatment and it is a totally different view of

health and life and illness. Vaccines don't figure in to that system in

any way, shape or form.

Sheri

At 03:14 PM 04/24/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>Well, how do you know anyone is reasonable? Wootan is generally

>anti-vaccination. He does not recommend any other vaccine. I tend to agree

>with him on other topics, and find his book -- and in particular his

>discussion of vaccination -- intelligent and well-referenced. I also found

>Randall Neustaedter's book helpful, and your website, Sheri.

>

>Speaking of Randall Neustaedter, I was rereading his section on tetanus and

>here is some of what he has to say:

>

> " There is no question that a series of tetanus toxoid injections is highly

>effective at preventing tetanus... This has been documented in several large

>studies during World War II, and with studies of large groups of horses.

>The fact that nearly all recent tetanus cases in the United States occurred

>in individuals who had not received the recommended schedule of vaccinations

>provides further evidence that active immunization is extremely effective. "

>

>Now, Neustaedter is one of the most vigorously anti-vax guys out there, and

>his book recommends -none- of the vaccines it surveys (including tetanus).

>Neustaedter details some bad central nervous system reactions to the shot

>and cites two deaths from anaphylactic reactions, one in 1933 and one in

>1973. He concludes that tetanus is not enough of a threat to justify even a

>minimal risk from the vaccine. But he does concede that the vaccine is

>effective. I am not saying that I know for certain that this is the case,

>but I am inclined to believe it when it comes from not one but two excellent

>anti-vax writers.

>

>Whether or not you want to use it is another question, of course. I would

>not presume to advise anyone to do it.

>

>tte

>

>>From: Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...>

>>Reply-Vaccinations

>>Vaccinations

>>Subject: Re: Re: Tetanus Discussion/Propaganda

>>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:09:02 +0100

>>

>>At 08:31 PM 04/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>> >For what it's worth, I thought what said made sense. It would not

>>be

>> >unreasonable to risk a vaccine if that risk really were smaller than the

>> >risk presented by the disease, for instance. And there are some

>>reasonable

>> >people who feel that the tetanus vaccine is low-risk. I.e.

>>Wootan,

>> >who does not recommend any other vaccine in his book _Take Charge of YOur

>> >Child's Health_.

>> >

>> >tte

>>

>>And how do you know Wootan is reasonable?

>>How do you know what he has studied.

>>ANd why do you think the risk of the disease is more than the vaccine.

>>What informatin do you have.

>>I have tons of information on vaccine reactions from tetanus vaccine and

>>saw one case in my whole nursing career of what was diagnosed as tetanus!

>>One!

>>And did you read how there is NOT even a diagnostic test for tetanus? How

>>do we know that the few tetanus cases that are diagnosed as tetanus really

>>are tetanus.

>>--------------------------------------------------------

>>Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

>>Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

>>530-478-1242 Voicemail

>>http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

>> " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

>>women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

>>ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

>>DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

>>Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

>>http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

>>International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

>>Education, Homeopathic Education

>>CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

>

>_________________________________________________________________

>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 08:27 PM 04/24/2001 -0700, you wrote:

>In much of the reading I've done I've come across the idea of

> " opportunities " to vaccinate, and the concept of reducing " missed

>opportunities " to vaccinate. I think docs must be thinking along these

>lines when you're there, you're injured and you are not

>up to date with the shots. It's a dangerous place to be with no info, isn't

>it?

>

>~Kelli

>

Yes, it is. They have become the gestapo for the Nazi drug company state.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

530-478-1242 Voicemail

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men ( &

women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE

DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/25/01 12:29:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

dterry@... writes:

> Right now I am on the side of thinking the

> prevelence of tetanus in US and liklihood of getting infected

> is highly overblown,

I agree. My Homeopath always told me if we ever had a wound of any

kind, to keep it very very clean by rinsing it with Hydrogen Peroxide. End

of story. I never give it any more thought than that although I know i would

if it were something like a big dog bite or something.

~Kerin~

Mom of Four~

*When you tend a rose, my lad,

A thistle cannot grow*

[Guest guest]

Sheri, what research in particular do you recommend on tetanus? So far what

I've read has convinced me only that there may be risks associated with the

vaccine, but not so many or so severe that they outweigh the risks

associated with tetanus.

JG

>From: Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...>

>Reply-Vaccinations

>Vaccinations

>Subject: Re: Re: Tetanus Discussion/Propaganda

>Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:53:11 +0100

>

>I don't agree with Neustaedter either on some of his findings. I've

>actually told him some things that he didn't know ;-)

>

>You have to look at the research yourself and the reactions and the true

>risk - not just take Wootan, Neustaedter, or myself as the gospel truth.

>We all have been programmed about tetanus and I have come out the other

>side with a very differnet perspective. I also have the perspective of

>homoepathy and homeopathic treatment and it is a totally different view of

>health and life and illness. Vaccines don't figure in to that system in

>any way, shape or form.

>Sheri

>

>At 03:14 PM 04/24/2001 -0500, you wrote:

> >Well, how do you know anyone is reasonable? Wootan is generally

> >anti-vaccination. He does not recommend any other vaccine. I tend to

>agree

> >with him on other topics, and find his book -- and in particular his

> >discussion of vaccination -- intelligent and well-referenced. I also

>found

> >Randall Neustaedter's book helpful, and your website, Sheri.

> >

> >Speaking of Randall Neustaedter, I was rereading his section on tetanus

>and

> >here is some of what he has to say:

> >

> > " There is no question that a series of tetanus toxoid injections is

>highly

> >effective at preventing tetanus... This has been documented in several

>large

> >studies during World War II, and with studies of large groups of horses.

> >The fact that nearly all recent tetanus cases in the United States

>occurred

> >in individuals who had not received the recommended schedule of

>vaccinations

> >provides further evidence that active immunization is extremely

>effective. "

> >

> >Now, Neustaedter is one of the most vigorously anti-vax guys out there,

>and

> >his book recommends -none- of the vaccines it surveys (including

>tetanus).

> >Neustaedter details some bad central nervous system reactions to the shot

> >and cites two deaths from anaphylactic reactions, one in 1933 and one in

> >1973. He concludes that tetanus is not enough of a threat to justify

>even a

> >minimal risk from the vaccine. But he does concede that the vaccine is

> >effective. I am not saying that I know for certain that this is the

>case,

> >but I am inclined to believe it when it comes from not one but two

>excellent

> >anti-vax writers.

> >

> >Whether or not you want to use it is another question, of course. I

>would

> >not presume to advise anyone to do it.

> >

> >tte

> >

> >>From: Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...>

> >>Reply-Vaccinations

> >>Vaccinations

> >>Subject: Re: Re: Tetanus Discussion/Propaganda

> >>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:09:02 +0100

> >>

> >>At 08:31 PM 04/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:

> >> >For what it's worth, I thought what said made sense. It would

>not

> >>be

> >> >unreasonable to risk a vaccine if that risk really were smaller than

>the

> >> >risk presented by the disease, for instance. And there are some

> >>reasonable

> >> >people who feel that the tetanus vaccine is low-risk. I.e.

> >>Wootan,

> >> >who does not recommend any other vaccine in his book _Take Charge of

>YOur

> >> >Child's Health_.

> >> >

> >> >tte

> >>

> >>And how do you know Wootan is reasonable?

> >>How do you know what he has studied.

> >>ANd why do you think the risk of the disease is more than the vaccine.

> >>What informatin do you have.

> >>I have tons of information on vaccine reactions from tetanus vaccine and

> >>saw one case in my whole nursing career of what was diagnosed as

>tetanus!

> >>One!

> >>And did you read how there is NOT even a diagnostic test for tetanus?

>How

> >>do we know that the few tetanus cases that are diagnosed as tetanus

>really

> >>are tetanus.

> >>--------------------------------------------------------

> >>Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

> >>Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & UK

> >>530-478-1242 Voicemail

> >>http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> >> " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men

>( &

> >>women) do nothing " ...Edmund Burke

> >>ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE.

>THE

> >>DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

> >>Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

> >>http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

> >>International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

> >>Education, Homeopathic Education

> >>CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

> >

> >_________________________________________________________________

> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Wow - I appreciate the great exchange we have had on this.

Very good synopsis by tte on how one might decide to

use the vax. Right now I am on the side of thinking the

prevelence of tetanus in US and liklihood of getting infected

is highly overblown, but I do see the other side of the coin.

Thanks for the info.

[Guest guest]

It takes time for your body to make antibodies against the tetanus germs,if

you have the vax it makes them quicker from what I understand.