caffeine

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for this primer on stimulant meds. Knowing there are short

and long/longwer acting ones gives some options (like trying the

short acting first to see if it actually works). Of course, this

would mean re-visiting the psychiatrist, whom my daughter quickly

strongly disliked after one visit.(He had no " bedside manner " , but I

guess this is the necessarily more clinical approach-as opposed to a

therapist approach).

nancy grace

In @y..., Joye <cjoye16@y...> wrote:

>

> Grace, Stimulants are now available in many different forms

now. Regular Ritalin and Dexedrine only last about 4 hours at a

time, Adderall (shorter acting) can last from 4 hours to 8- hours in

some individuals. When Tommy took shorter acting Adderall, he took

it ever 4 hours during the day as he metabolized it very quickly.

In last last few years there have been a number of longer acting

variations of these say stimulants that have become

available...longer acting Methylphenidate (or Ritalin), brand name

Concerta, lasts 12 hours, when administered in the the correct dose,

Metadate, about 8 hours and Adderall XR about 8 also. Of course all

of these time frames depend on how quickly each person metabolizes

them. These medications wear off every day. They can be taken only

when needed also, although with most younger patients these days,

the advice is to administer it every day in order to help the child

attain the best possible treatment levels. A multimodal treatment

plan for AD/HD has been proven to be best, combing both behavioral

interventions and medication therapy. Some kids really don't need

medication, some do. For more info, try www.chadd.org. I am the

coordinator for a local chapter here and that web site does have a

lot of good information.

> I also want to chime in and second what Joni suggested to you

about the situation with her son and her decision not to try

medication for him earlier. My oldest (he was an adopted step child

who was 10 when I married his father, his mother died when he was

8), was definitively diagnosed with AD/HD inattentive type when he

was 12. He refuses to take medication and is one of the moodiest,

most disengaged people I have ever run across. He has trouble

reading social cues and is convinced that he is always right and

everyone else is wrong. He thinks that I made the Doctors give him

a diagnosis of AD/HD (Ha!). He currently engages in high risk

behavior and doesn't appear to give much thought to the consequences

to himself or others (driving 100 mph when he was last home in

Feb). During a short period of time during his Jr. year of high

school, he did try Adderall..his grades shot up and he was pleasant

and part of the family, when before he brooded in his room, only

coming out for meals and school. I can guarantee you that had he

been my child all along, he would have been on medication much

sooner, and maybe his life would be a bit more full that it is

shaping up to be now. God is looking after him now, and although I

sort of choke on this, it is a blessing to our family that he is on

the west coast with the Navy looking after him, as having him here

would not be a strssor that we would welcome here now. Blessings,

in Southeastern PA

> nmlinnen <nmlinnen@y...> wrote: So I wonder if the effect she

recieves from the caffeine indicates

> she could be helped by a prescribed stimulant?

> But one cannot take a prescription like ritalin (or is the other

> adderral?) for immediate or temporary effects, I believe it must

be

> a continual dosage, kind of like the difference between taking a

> sudafed (when my other daughter had allergies acting up) or taking

a

> daily 24 hr pill, like claritin, to prevent the acting up in the

> first place.

> nancy grace

>

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> >

[Guest guest]

,

Why is caffeine to be avoided with Luvox? I never heard that and my son is

on 400mg of Luvox.

Thanks.

Sharon

>

>Reply-To:

>To: < >

>Subject: Re: caffeine

>Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 19:11:16 -0500

>

>Hi, .

>

>It has been my experience that unmedicated adult ADDers self medicate quite

>well with caffeine. Caffeine is to be avoided with Luvox, but are there

>other harmful effects for the average child (prior to the Luvox I didn't

>limit too awfully much the kids' caffeine intake)? Always learning

>something new on this site!

>

>Warmly,

>

>

> caffeine

>

>

> On another list a mom felt that her son's ADD (unmediacted for a

> trial period)improved with caffeine. This caught my attention

> because, although I do not like my 13 yr old daughter to drink

> coffee, it does seem to stabilize her mood for awhile after school

> when she has to do her homework. Otherwise she is very irritable,

> cannot concentrate, noise bothers her alot, and she will fall asleep

> over her work. The irritabilty etc, is not necessarily withdrawal

> (when she does not have caffeine) because these symptoms were

> present before she ever tried it. There is not an issue with it

> keeping her awake at night since she has a cup of coffee when she

> gets home from school. I associate the irritabilty and poor

> concentration symptoms with the onset of her ocd symptoms (as

> oopposed to simply sleep deprivation). Does anyone else allow their

> child to drink coffee (we do not drink sodas with caffeine).

> nancy grace

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Why is caffeine to be avoided with Luvox? I never heard that and my son is

on 400mg of Luvox.

Thanks.

Sharon

>

>Reply-To:

>To: < >

>Subject: Re: caffeine

>Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 19:11:16 -0500

>

>Hi, .

>

>It has been my experience that unmedicated adult ADDers self medicate quite

>well with caffeine. Caffeine is to be avoided with Luvox, but are there

>other harmful effects for the average child (prior to the Luvox I didn't

>limit too awfully much the kids' caffeine intake)? Always learning

>something new on this site!

>

>Warmly,

>

>

> caffeine

>

>

> On another list a mom felt that her son's ADD (unmediacted for a

> trial period)improved with caffeine. This caught my attention

> because, although I do not like my 13 yr old daughter to drink

> coffee, it does seem to stabilize her mood for awhile after school

> when she has to do her homework. Otherwise she is very irritable,

> cannot concentrate, noise bothers her alot, and she will fall asleep

> over her work. The irritabilty etc, is not necessarily withdrawal

> (when she does not have caffeine) because these symptoms were

> present before she ever tried it. There is not an issue with it

> keeping her awake at night since she has a cup of coffee when she

> gets home from school. I associate the irritabilty and poor

> concentration symptoms with the onset of her ocd symptoms (as

> oopposed to simply sleep deprivation). Does anyone else allow their

> child to drink coffee (we do not drink sodas with caffeine).

> nancy grace

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Doris,

I stopped caffiene about a year ago and it did not do a thing for my CFS.

Suzanne

caffeine

Has anyone stopped caffeine and found that it really helps their CFS? (I can

imagine it might help FM as it is supposed to increase pain.) I can barely

function without caffeine, and other doctors don't think it is a problem.

Nanacy Klimas for example just said in her radio show that the only reason many

CFS'ers can function at all is from caffeine and doesn't think there is anything

wrong with it. I can't remember what Cheney says. Some doctors even prescribe

stimulants like ritalin and I can't believe that is better than caffeine.

But I am open to hearing about others experiences.

Thanks,

Doris

----- Original Message -----

...

" I've always recommended that PWCs avoid sugar, caffeine, alcohol,

Nutrasweet and tobacco, " said Lapp, director of the Hunter Hopkins

Center in Charlotte, NC.

Dick Bruno, M.D., agrees. He's Director of the Fatigue Management

Programs and Post-Polio Institute at Englewood Hospital and Medical

Center in Englewood, NJ.

" PWCs shouldn't use anything containing caffeine- including

chocolate, coffee, tea or soda-to pump themselves up, " said Dr.

Bruno.

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone stopped caffeine and found that it really helps their

> CFS? (I can imagine it might help FM as it is supposed to increase

> pain.)

Doris,

I " ve gone many years at a time with almost no caffeine. I never have

drank coffee or tea (just don't like the taste). I drink an occasional

soda pop thats caffeine free. Except for that 'tiny' bite of chocolate

now and then I have no caffeine. Its made NO difference in my CFS or FM

severity. To be hoenst, I think it makes me worse, with no stimulation

at all, I feel even more mentally dead than ever. I used to drink a lot

of diet coke years ago (before an intestinal flu screwed up my

intestines so bad I had to stop, which was a blessing in disguise) So

after that I just quit all caffeine thinking too that would make a diff

in how I felt, but 4 yrs later, I sure can't feel its helped at all.

Thats just my experience.

Marcia

[Guest guest]

Doris & All,

I am shocked that Klimas thinks caffeine is okay for PWCs. It just

goes to show how little many of the CFS " experts " really understand about

what is truly going on in CFS. In light of our recent discussion regarding

the central role of the adrenal glands in CFS, it's important to note that

caffeine is extremely bad for the adrenals. In his book, Dr. Poesnecker

says: " Caffeine has a short-term stimulative effect, but a long-term

exhausting effect on the adrenals, and must be eliminated before any real

progress can be made. " If you don't believe him, just ask any

holistic/alternative practitioner, and I'm sure they'll tell you the same

thing (assuming they have any understanding of the adrenal glands). In

fact, many of them say that caffeine is bad for *anybody*, not just PWCs,

due to its effect on the adrenals.

It's not just a matter of asking, " Do I feel better with or without

cafffeine? " but of understanding what is truly going on. Of course you'll

feel better after a bit of caffeine, but you'll feel even worse after the

effect wears off and will become more and more dependent on it -- the

short-term energy comes at the expense of your adrenals and further exhausts

them. It's like whipping a tired horse to get a few extra miles out of

him -- but he'll be much more exhausted afterwards. We'll never get better

if we continue to abuse our adrenal glands.

This is an important issue that is very misunderstood, even by doctors, and

I hope the above makes it easier to understand.

Take care,

> Has anyone stopped caffeine and found that it really helps their CFS? (I

can imagine it might help FM as it is supposed to increase pain.) I can

barely function without caffeine, and other doctors don't think it is a

problem. Nanacy Klimas for example just said in her radio show that the

only reason many CFS'ers can function at all is from caffeine and doesn't

think there is anything wrong with it. I can't remember what Cheney says.

[Guest guest]

hi and all -

I *honestly* don't believe that my one cup of coffee in the morning to get me

jumpstarted has any deleterious effect - short or long term, and I do have some

adrenal problems (i.e., low cortisol in a.m., high cortisol in p.m.). I don't

feel bad when the effects wear off and I'm not dependent on it. There are many

other CFIDS specialists who think 1 cup or so is not going to do you any harm

unless you are going through a period of extreme illness. And not every

wholistic practitioner/doctor I've seen (and in 14 yrs. I've seen a lot!)

think coffee/caffeine is the devil. I also don't think Poesnecker is the

ultimate authority when it comes to adrenal issues either. Show me solid

science!!

Judith G

> I am shocked that Klimas thinks caffeine is okay for PWCs. It just

> goes to show how little many of the CFS " experts " really understand about

> what is truly going on in CFS. In light of our recent discussion regarding

> the central role of the adrenal glands in CFS, it's important to note that

> caffeine is extremely bad for the adrenals. In his book, Dr. Poesnecker

> says: " Caffeine has a short-term stimulative effect, but a long-term

> exhausting effect on the adrenals, and must be eliminated before any real

> progress can be made. " If you don't believe him, just ask any

> holistic/alternative practitioner, and I'm sure they'll tell you the same

> thing (assuming they have any understanding of the adrenal glands). In

> fact, many of them say that caffeine is bad for *anybody*, not just PWCs,

> due to its effect on the adrenals.

>

> It's not just a matter of asking, " Do I feel better with or without

> cafffeine? " but of understanding what is truly going on. Of course you'll

> feel better after a bit of caffeine, but you'll feel even worse after the

> effect wears off and will become more and more dependent on it -- the

> short-term energy comes at the expense of your adrenals and further exhausts

> them. It's like whipping a tired horse to get a few extra miles out of

> him -- but he'll be much more exhausted afterwards. We'll never get better

> if we continue to abuse our adrenal glands.

>

> This is an important issue that is very misunderstood, even by doctors, and

> I hope the above makes it easier to understand.

>

> Take care,

>

>

>

> > Has anyone stopped caffeine and found that it really helps their CFS? (I

> can imagine it might help FM as it is supposed to increase pain.) I can

> barely function without caffeine, and other doctors don't think it is a

> problem. Nanacy Klimas for example just said in her radio show that the

> only reason many CFS'ers can function at all is from caffeine and doesn't

> think there is anything wrong with it. I can't remember what Cheney says.

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Judith,

I wasn't saying that Dr. Poesnecker is the ultimate authority on adrenal

issues -- although he is one of the few doctors I've found who do understand

the adrenals well, particularly with regard to CFS. And I'm not quite sure

what you mean when you say " show me solid science. " If you read Dr. P's

book, there is certainly a lot of science there, and there are many other

books that deal with adrenal issues and/or discuss the deleterious effects

of caffeine on the adrenals. This issue is nothing new. Caffeine is a drug

and a lot of people don't realize that. And as I mentioned,

holistic/alternative doctors who don't fully understand the adrenal issue

won't understand the dangers of caffeine either -- although most I have run

across do -- and the same goes for " CFIDS specialists. "

But I do have one question for you: If you're not dependent on caffeine,

then why do you need to drink a cup each morning to get you jumpstarted?

Just something to think about...

Although not all CFS/CFIDS doctors would agree that the adrenals play a

central role in CFS, I think they would agree that, at the very least, the

adrenals are stressed. So doesn't it make sense to avoid things that would

stress them further? It's that simple, and that's the main point I was

trying to make. Didn't mean to offend any coffee-lovers out there...

Re: caffeine

> hi and all -

>

> I *honestly* don't believe that my one cup of coffee in the morning to get

me jumpstarted has any deleterious effect - short or long term, and I do

have some adrenal problems (i.e., low cortisol in a.m., high cortisol in

p.m.). I don't feel bad when the effects wear off and I'm not dependent on

it. There are many other CFIDS specialists who think 1 cup or so is not

going to do you any harm unless you are going through a period of extreme

illness. And not every wholistic practitioner/doctor I've seen (and in 14

yrs. I've seen a lot!) think coffee/caffeine is the devil. I also don't

think Poesnecker is the ultimate authority when it comes to adrenal issues

either. Show me solid science!!

>

> Judith G

[Guest guest]

-

> But I do have one question for you: If you're not dependent on caffeine,

> then why do you need to drink a cup each morning to get you jumpstarted?

> Just something to think about...

before you use terms like " dependence " you ought to be clear on exactly what it

means. From the Merck Manual (1999): " 2 concepts contribute to the definition

of drug dependence: *tolerance*, which describes the need to progressively

increase the dose to produce the effect originally achieved with smaller doses

and *physical* dependence, a state of phsysiologic adaptation to a drug,

manifested by a withdrawal (abstinence) syndrome. *Psychological dependence* is

accompanied by feelings of satisfaction and a desire to repeat the drug

experience or to avoid the discontent of not having it. " There's more, but this

is just something to think about.

My one cup in the morning hardly qualifies under this definition, I don't

drink it all day, I don't crave it at all, and I don't experience withdrawal.

It *is* well known that heavy coffee drinkers experience withdrawal, headaches,

etc, when they stop drinking it cold turkey.

I don't think it serves anyone well to make such blanket statements as you did,

that caffeine is terrible for everyone with CFIDS - for some of us it is, and

for some of us it clearly is not, as with most everything connected with this

DD.

Judith

> Although not all CFS/CFIDS doctors would agree that the adrenals play a

> central role in CFS, I think they would agree that, at the very least, the

> adrenals are stressed. So doesn't it make sense to avoid things that would

> stress them further? It's that simple, and that's the main point I was

> trying to make. Didn't mean to offend any coffee-lovers out there...

>

>

>

>

> Re: caffeine

>

>

> > hi and all -

> >

> > I *honestly* don't believe that my one cup of coffee in the morning to get

> me jumpstarted has any deleterious effect - short or long term, and I do

> have some adrenal problems (i.e., low cortisol in a.m., high cortisol in

> p.m.). I don't feel bad when the effects wear off and I'm not dependent on

> it. There are many other CFIDS specialists who think 1 cup or so is not

> going to do you any harm unless you are going through a period of extreme

> illness. And not every wholistic practitioner/doctor I've seen (and in 14

> yrs. I've seen a lot!) think coffee/caffeine is the devil. I also don't

> think Poesnecker is the ultimate authority when it comes to adrenal issues

> either. Show me solid science!!

> >

> > Judith G

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi Cort and all -

> What I really wonder at is why this happens to me even with DECAF or why I

need just a couple of sips of regular coffee to send me flying, and why so many

of us are so sensitive to such small amounts of medications ----and what does

THAT mean about CFS??? I've never heard any reason why so many of us overreact

to inputs. This seems to me to be a key part of the illness. Is it the brain?

nervous system? Does anybody know?

most decaf is decaffeinated using chemicals which you might be sensitive to. A

few, more expensive ones, found at coffee boutique style stores are " water

process " decaffed which supposedly has no chemicals. I would think a local

Starbucks would have that kind, you could give it a try.

The sensitivity to medications and drugs have at least partly to do with how

your liver processes/detoxes stuff. GS labs has a detox test that has you

taking caffeine, aspirin, and tylenol and that will give you some indication of

how your liver is functioning as well as your glutathione levels. I'm sure

someone else on the list can add a lot more to this!

Judith G

[Guest guest]

>What I really wonder at is why this happens to me even with DECAF or why I

need just >a couple of sips of regular coffee to send me flying...

Cort,

Despite its name, decaffeinated coffee still contains a small amount of

caffeine, so that is why it gives you the same " lift " as regular coffee,

albeit to a lesser extent.

[Guest guest]

If you are crashing from decaff, I don't see how you are saying the caffeine is

the problem. Maybe you are allergic or react to the coffee itself. How are you

with tea?

There are chemicals used to decaffeinate coffee, and perhaps you are allergic to

them. I tested postive to one common one in the ELISA/ACT test.

Thanks,

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: cort johnson

Just from a completely subjective point of view I love the hit I get from

caffeine. Energy goes way, mind gets clearer, libido even improves (I should

say appears) but then I feel kind of stretched, then jittery and I basically

crash - sometimes gently sometimes not - so its clear to me that regular use of

caffeine is not indicated at all. What I really wonder at is why this happens

to me even with DECAF or why I need just a couple of sips of regular coffee to

send me flying, and why so many of us are so sensitive to such small amounts of

medications ----and what does THAT mean about CFS???

[Guest guest]

Cort,

I think that one possibility is that the detox system is not working

well. In a normal, healthy person, the detox system works to get

rid of drugs, toxins, and things like caffeine. This limits their

biological half-lives in the body and their peak concentrations.

When the detox system is not working efficiently, for a given total

dose, these substances rise to higher concentrations and remain in

the body longer. They those have a more potent effect for the same

dosage in a normal healthy person.

What's wrong with the detox system? I think that in a lot of cases

the glutathione is depleted. This slows one of the phase 2 detox

pathways, and it also affects those parts of phase 1 detox that

generate oxidizing free radicals.

Rich

What I really wonder at is why this happens to me even with DECAF

or why I need just a couple of sips of regular coffee to send me

flying, and why so many of us are so sensitive to such small amounts

of medications ----and what does THAT mean about CFS??? I've never

heard any reason why so many of us overreact to inputs. This seems

to me to be a key part of the illness. Is it the brain? nervous

system? Does anybody know?

[Guest guest]

> There seems to be a difference of opinion among authorities regarding

> caffeine. Does anyone have information about its relationship to

cancer?

> Thanks,

>

Hi, (and list),

there's a rather fascinating, informative, and well-referenced book,

" The World of Caffeine: The Science and Culture of the World's Most

Popular Drug, " by Alan Weinberg and Bonny Beagler. I don't remember

if it deals with cancer specifically, but circumstantial evidence

points to the fact that all anti-coffee propaganda of the generic

nature ( " it's bad for everyone for all purposes, and terrible for

anyone with a serious illness " ) ever produced is to be disregarded.

Below I will paste something I wrote a while ago to another list in an

attempt to analyze a few of coffee's exceedingly diverse and

interesting effects from the perspective of traditional Chinese

medicine (TCM), perchance my favorite approach to understanding which

substances will do what in the body. Now coffee is not a Chinese

beverage and classical TCM sources have nothing to say about it;

however, the energetic properties (in the TCM sense) of hundreds of

originally non-Chinese herbs (which is what coffee technically is -- a

" medicinal herb " ) have been explored successfully by some of the

foremost modern herbalists (e.g., Tierra and Tillotson), and I have

used a similar approach in my analysis. Most of the terminology used

is non-Western, but I think anyone who has looked into the metabolism

of cancer will recognize certain parallels. Here goes:

The qi of coffee enters the Kidneys, Liver and Heart meridians. It

means that most of its effects will impact the Water-Wood-Fire cycle

of the Five Elements. (Kidneys are associated with Water, Liver, with

Wood, Heart, with Fire.) So, OK, it enters the Kidneys and

stimulates/generates/releases Water from the system. Water is what

nourishes the Wood of the Liver. In a healthy scenario, the Liver Wood

gets " as much as it needs, " while in an unhealthy one, Water directed

to Wood will " stagnate... " -- think " overwatering with not enough

drainage, " think " moldy Wood, " think " sluggish Liver. " Now the

diuretic effect means Wood will get less Water. Cancer is associated

with swollen/watery/stagnant Liver Yin conditions, edema of the

Liver, dilution/loss of concentrated power of the Liver Qi, loss of

Liver Yang. Insulin is a manifestation of the Liver Yang (the Western

pancreas is part of the Liver organ-function-meridian system in TCM).

Decreasing Liver Yin means increasing Liver Yang (whether insulin

proper or other, subtler manifestations thereof). So, well, by

releasing some stagnant (de-structured, energy-depleted, " stale and

moldy " ) Water, coffee will dry, concentrate, and empower Liver Yang.

The Wood of the Liver, as it becomes drier, catches on Fire more

readily; hence the stimulating effects on the Heart -- both physical

(elevated heart rate) and non-physical (higher intelligence -- the

mental functions, the intellect, are related to the Heart Fire going

" upward " ). So we get a profile of a typical coffee drinker: higher

rate of urination, stronger liver-pancreatic enzymes (NB!), higher

heart rate (this effect is temporary and associated with the immediate

intake, it doesn't linger beyond a couple hours and produces no

chronic tachycardia) that means " burning more junk " in the case of

adequate consumption and perhaps " burning too much Wood " in the case

of overconsumption (hence the yin-deficient, underweight, dry, nervous

type that can be produced by overconsumption -- a seriously addicted

coffee abuser), a measure of excitation to the whole system (that's

Heart Fire -- metabolic plus " psychometabolic " rate, so to speak), and

lower risk of Liver Yin stagnation/Liver Yang deficiency disorders...

including cancer.

But of course there's more to coffee (I mean " good coffee " ) than its

diuretic effects. There's diuretics out there whose energy won't enter

the same meridians, and won't have the same effect. E.g., the qi of

uva ursi, a strong natural diuretic, will go to the Bladder Meridian

rather than the Kidneys Meridian... also a water-releasing effect, but

different energy pathways and thus a different systemic impact.

Elena

[Guest guest]

> There seems to be a difference of opinion among authorities regarding

> caffeine. Does anyone have information about its relationship to

cancer?

> Thanks,

>

Hi, (and list),

there's a rather fascinating, informative, and well-referenced book,

" The World of Caffeine: The Science and Culture of the World's Most

Popular Drug, " by Alan Weinberg and Bonny Beagler. I don't remember

if it deals with cancer specifically, but circumstantial evidence

points to the fact that all anti-coffee propaganda of the generic

nature ( " it's bad for everyone for all purposes, and terrible for

anyone with a serious illness " ) ever produced is to be disregarded.

Below I will paste something I wrote a while ago to another list in an

attempt to analyze a few of coffee's exceedingly diverse and

interesting effects from the perspective of traditional Chinese

medicine (TCM), perchance my favorite approach to understanding which

substances will do what in the body. Now coffee is not a Chinese

beverage and classical TCM sources have nothing to say about it;

however, the energetic properties (in the TCM sense) of hundreds of

originally non-Chinese herbs (which is what coffee technically is -- a

" medicinal herb " ) have been explored successfully by some of the

foremost modern herbalists (e.g., Tierra and Tillotson), and I have

used a similar approach in my analysis. Most of the terminology used

is non-Western, but I think anyone who has looked into the metabolism

of cancer will recognize certain parallels. Here goes:

The qi of coffee enters the Kidneys, Liver and Heart meridians. It

means that most of its effects will impact the Water-Wood-Fire cycle

of the Five Elements. (Kidneys are associated with Water, Liver, with

Wood, Heart, with Fire.) So, OK, it enters the Kidneys and

stimulates/generates/releases Water from the system. Water is what

nourishes the Wood of the Liver. In a healthy scenario, the Liver Wood

gets " as much as it needs, " while in an unhealthy one, Water directed

to Wood will " stagnate... " -- think " overwatering with not enough

drainage, " think " moldy Wood, " think " sluggish Liver. " Now the

diuretic effect means Wood will get less Water. Cancer is associated

with swollen/watery/stagnant Liver Yin conditions, edema of the

Liver, dilution/loss of concentrated power of the Liver Qi, loss of

Liver Yang. Insulin is a manifestation of the Liver Yang (the Western

pancreas is part of the Liver organ-function-meridian system in TCM).

Decreasing Liver Yin means increasing Liver Yang (whether insulin

proper or other, subtler manifestations thereof). So, well, by

releasing some stagnant (de-structured, energy-depleted, " stale and

moldy " ) Water, coffee will dry, concentrate, and empower Liver Yang.

The Wood of the Liver, as it becomes drier, catches on Fire more

readily; hence the stimulating effects on the Heart -- both physical

(elevated heart rate) and non-physical (higher intelligence -- the

mental functions, the intellect, are related to the Heart Fire going

" upward " ). So we get a profile of a typical coffee drinker: higher

rate of urination, stronger liver-pancreatic enzymes (NB!), higher

heart rate (this effect is temporary and associated with the immediate

intake, it doesn't linger beyond a couple hours and produces no

chronic tachycardia) that means " burning more junk " in the case of

adequate consumption and perhaps " burning too much Wood " in the case

of overconsumption (hence the yin-deficient, underweight, dry, nervous

type that can be produced by overconsumption -- a seriously addicted

coffee abuser), a measure of excitation to the whole system (that's

Heart Fire -- metabolic plus " psychometabolic " rate, so to speak), and

lower risk of Liver Yin stagnation/Liver Yang deficiency disorders...

including cancer.

But of course there's more to coffee (I mean " good coffee " ) than its

diuretic effects. There's diuretics out there whose energy won't enter

the same meridians, and won't have the same effect. E.g., the qi of

uva ursi, a strong natural diuretic, will go to the Bladder Meridian

rather than the Kidneys Meridian... also a water-releasing effect, but

different energy pathways and thus a different systemic impact.

Elena

[Guest guest]

Rach,

In message <ckukj1+9mddeGroups> you wrote:

>

> So most kombucha is made with regular tea.

Yes, Camellia sinensis, that's its scientific name, can be white,

green, half-fermented (oolong) or black and it's only this that makes true

Kombucha tea... at different stages of fermentation or no fermentation.

> If you wanted to make

> kombucha without caffeine, can you just herbal tea? Chamomile or ...

I wouldn't.

Best thing to use, if you really have to avoid the small amount of

caffeine, is to use decaffeinated tea. I remember that some list members

used/use it with great success.

Blessings,

Margret

--

+---------------------------------------------------------------+

Minstrel@...

www.therpc.f9.co.uk

+---------------------------------------------------------------+

[Guest guest]

we tell our patients they are giving up caffeine, carbonation and

alcohol for life...

>

> Do patients have to omit caffeine for life after gastric bypass?

When may

> caffeine be reintroduced into the diet?

>

> A. Turesky, MS, RD, CDN

> 451 Casey Road

> East Amherst, NY 14051

> JAT8780@...

> (716) 689-0663

>

> THIS E-MAIL IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE ADDRESSEE(S) AND MAY CONTAIN

> CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT,

YOU ARE HEREBY

> NOTIFIED THAT ANY USE OF THIS INFORMATION OR DISSEMINATION,

DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING

> OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS

E-MAIL IN

> ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY THE SENDER IMMEDIATELY BY RETURN E-MAIL AND

DELETE THE

> ORIGINAL MESSAGE. THANK YOU.

>

[Guest guest]

We tell our patients no caffeine for one month, then no more than 1-2 cups of

caffeinated beverages per day (minimize). Alcohol, we say none for about 6

months, during phase of rapid weight loss (due to potential impact on brain,

when ketones are being used as a fuel source-I would have to search for the

research on this again), then minimal due to exaggerated effects and liquid

calories sabotaging weight loss (not to mention potential for trading one

addiction for another). Carbonated beverages we still recommend avoiding, but I

am not convince total abstinence is really well supported anywhere. The jury is

out on this one,

Simler

ValleyCare Health System

Pleasanton, CA

>>> kraus_catherine@... 07/12/06 6:45 AM >>>

we tell our patients they are giving up caffeine, carbonation and

alcohol for life...

>

> Do patients have to omit caffeine for life after gastric bypass?

When may

> caffeine be reintroduced into the diet?

>

> A. Turesky, MS, RD, CDN

> 451 Casey Road

> East Amherst, NY 14051

> JAT8780@...

> (716) 689-0663

>

> THIS E-MAIL IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE ADDRESSEE(S) AND MAY CONTAIN

> CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT,

YOU ARE HEREBY

> NOTIFIED THAT ANY USE OF THIS INFORMATION OR DISSEMINATION,

DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING

> OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS

E-MAIL IN

> ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY THE SENDER IMMEDIATELY BY RETURN E-MAIL AND

DELETE THE

> ORIGINAL MESSAGE. THANK YOU.

>

[Guest guest]

Reference regarding alcohol:

Klockhoff, H Faster absortion of ethanol and higher peak concentration in

women after gastric bypass surgery. Br J Clin Pharmacol 54 587-591, 2002

Joan Bahr RD CDE

Southwest Health Center

Platteville WI 53818

Re: caffeine

We tell our patients no caffeine for one month, then no more than 1-2 cups

of caffeinated beverages per day (minimize). Alcohol, we say none for about

6 months, during phase of rapid weight loss (due to potential impact on

brain, when ketones are being used as a fuel source-I would have to search

for the research on this again), then minimal due to exaggerated effects and

liquid calories sabotaging weight loss (not to mention potential for trading

one addiction for another). Carbonated beverages we still recommend

avoiding, but I am not convince total abstinence is really well supported

anywhere. The jury is out on this one,

Simler

ValleyCare Health System

Pleasanton, CA

>>> kraus_catherine@... 07/12/06 6:45 AM >>>

we tell our patients they are giving up caffeine, carbonation and alcohol

for life...

>

> Do patients have to omit caffeine for life after gastric bypass?

When may

> caffeine be reintroduced into the diet?

>

> A. Turesky, MS, RD, CDN

> 451 Casey Road

> East Amherst, NY 14051

> JAT8780@...

> (716) 689-0663

>

> THIS E-MAIL IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE ADDRESSEE(S) AND MAY CONTAIN

> CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT,

YOU ARE HEREBY

> NOTIFIED THAT ANY USE OF THIS INFORMATION OR DISSEMINATION,

DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING

> OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS

E-MAIL IN

> ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY THE SENDER IMMEDIATELY BY RETURN E-MAIL AND

DELETE THE

> ORIGINAL MESSAGE. THANK YOU.

>

[Guest guest]

I tell my patients no caffeine, no alcohol & no carbonation for 3 months. Many patients quit all together. Angie , MEd, RD

Nutritionist

SIUH Center for the Surgical Treatment of Obesity

256 Mason Avenue

Staten Island, NY 10305

718-226-1300

[Guest guest]

Dr Grim will address the clinical side of this, but as a longterm

patient, yes.

My spikes in BP are not as troublesome as the tendency to speed up any

process, including the long list of PA symptoms, which our group seem to

report occurring in little clusters of 2-6. In other words, we feel

less well, lose work and productive time. This is at odds with the

usual attitude about cafffiene - a stimulant to increase productivity.

A " lift. "

Dave

mmcandmcc wrote:

>

> How does caffeine affect PA? I was never much of a caffeine drinker,

> but recently have been craving cola and tea. I've read it can cause a

> transitory rise in BP, but are there other issues I should consider?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you new to caffiene it increases BP in many.? If you are habituated

(addicted?) it does not do as much.? Can always stop and see effects.

> How does caffeine affect PA? I was never much of a caffeine drinker,

> but recently have been craving cola and tea. I've read it can cause a

> transitory rise in BP, but are there other issues I should consider?

>

>

Re: caffeine

Dr Grim will address the clinical side of this, but as a longterm

patient, yes.

My spikes in BP are not as troublesome as the tendency to speed up any

process, including the long list of PA symptoms, which our group seem to

report occurring in little clusters of 2-6. In other words, we feel

less well, lose work and productive time. This is at odds with the

usual attitude about cafffiene - a stimulant to increase productivity.

A " lift. "

Dave

mmcandmcc wrote:

>

> How does caffeine affect PA? I was never much of a caffeine drinker,

> but recently have been craving cola and tea. I've read it can cause a

> transitory rise in BP, but are there other issues I should consider?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had to quit caff, as I was shaking after 1/2 cup.. For low energy periods,

try Ginseng tea. I like double ginseng (panax) by BIJA.

I've also found a good alternative to coffee (and I even did organic decaf

without luck on the stomach). It's called Teechino, or something similar. It's a

an herbal coffee alternative. I LOVE the vanilla nut one. It's actually

alkalinizing as well.

I have NO affililiation to these companies.

-Wendi

caffeine

I quit coffee and cola about 18 years ago after they were hurting

stomach too much, but continue on drinking black tea (green tea hurts

gut too) its not as negative on my system as coffee or cola but I

struggle with it often wondering if its worse for me that not.

Sometimes I drink herbal or decaf and have gone thru periods of no use

but always come back to it, craving it in low energy times. I don't

usually have more than 1-2 cups a day and sometimes put milk and sugar

or honey or steevia orhalf and half

anyhoo, my question is what is your experience with caff? thumbs up or

down?

my worries about it? that it increases hypoglycemia or low b/p, like

a boost then a worse crash. not always, but sometimes real noticeable.

i wonder if my energy would improve without it, one time before i had

fms/fcs years ago i did quit for a year and my energy did get way

better but just can't kick it for good. sort of one of my guilty

pleasures since alcohol and so many other things can't tolerate.

chocolate is another one......

but I wonder if its good because of antioxidants and perhaps increased

cognitive functioning? mabe its a mixed bag.

id

[Guest guest]

We have seen some ulcers at various lengths of time post-op (both in the

rny pouch and in the anastamosis area). I wondered if this might be

caused at least in part from caffeine?? What other causes might there

be for post-op ulcers? We tell them all to avoid all NSAIDs, so I don't

think it is because of those irritants. Now I am afraid for them to

have any caffeine or alcohol!

>>> tggilbert@... 04/02/08 3:51 PM >>>

What is the majority consensus on caffeine? We do Lap band and RNY and

patients are told no caffeine at surgery but I am wondering when it

would be appropriate to tell them they can start drinking a cup of

coffee in the morning. I assume main reason is it is gastric irritant

vs. diuretic? I read that caffeine is only a diuretic if provided in

excess >500 mg per day I think the research stated. Let me know what you

all think!

Thanks, Theresa

[Guest guest]

We have them have no caffeine 3 days before surgery until 6 weeks after surgery, but they are allowed to have decaf coffee/tea during that time. No carbonation until 6 mos post-op.

-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Theresa GilbertSent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 6:52 PM Subject: caffeine

What is the majority consensus on caffeine? We do Lap band and RNY and patients are told no caffeine at surgery but I am wondering when it would be appropriate to tell them they can start drinking a cup of coffee in the morning. I assume main reason is it is gastric irritant vs. diuretic? I read that caffeine is only a diuretic if provided in excess >500 mg per day I think the research stated. Let me know what you all think!

Thanks, Theresa