Sleep Problems

[Guest guest]

<<A simple solution I did for Tim when sleep was hard to come by. I just

turned his doorknob backwards.>>

I used to that with . I'm now at the point that I don't have to. I

" trained " (before I knew sleep problems went with ADHD and before he was

diagnosed autistic) to not get out of bed. I have to admit, I sometimes spanked

him (though not hard) when he did get out. I lived in a shotgun apartment at

the time (meaning if you stood at one end and fired a shotgun, you wouldn't hit

anything until you hit the other outside wall of the house). You came in the

living room, went through 's room, then mine to the kitchen. I had to make

sure he stayed in bed, because after I went to bed, he was between me and the

door.

He has gotten much better, possibly age or meds or diet. Well gotta go and get

dinner.

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynn, sleep problems have got to be among the worst both for our OCDers

and us parents. I have been through this and can certainly sympathize. Dad

was angry and irritable, Mom was chronically tired and foggy, and Kel was

exhausted from lack of sleep and fighting her demons nearly around the

clock. Kel's anxiety would rise starting around dinnertime in anticipation

of the ordeal ahead of lying in bed for hours, having OCD thoughts--not

helpful at all.

What happens that allows your daughter to finally fall asleep around 3 or 4?

Have you tried moving bedtime forward, so that she may fall asleep earlier?

Ten o'clock seems a late starting time for now, with these serious sleeping

problems going on. Also, and this is hard, get her up in time for school,

even though you don't expect her to go. These two measures can help reset

her sleeping schedule to something more livable.

When we were going through this I insisted Kel lie in bed, no distractions,

TV etc., which for her just kept her awake rather than helping her calm down

and feel drowsy. I found it helpful to read to her while she lay in bed,

but I insisted she close her eyes while she listened. Some nights she was

so exhausted that despite herself and her fears, she fell asleep fairly

quickly. Every night this happened helped break the cycle and lower her

anxiety about the whole process of going to bed the next night.

No doubt you have thought about this, but is there any chance that med

side-effects are interfering with Kim falling asleep? On Prozac, for ex.,

given with breakfast--with the first dose Kel was unable to fall asleep

until midnight or later (4-5 hours past the time she had been going to

sleep) and this continued the entire three months she took that drug. OTOH

if Kim isn't taking any meds for OCD, starting an SSRI (or switching to a

different one) may address her anxiety and thoughts to the point that she

could sleep again. Kel was very tired while taking Luvox, for ex., in fact

this is why we eventually took her off this med.

Have you tried Benedryl, which makes many kids sleepy? Kel's doc told us we

could give her quite a bit, more than the recommended dosage on the package,

which we did for a short while to break the routine of being up half the

night. Kel was prescribed Risperdal for tics, and we were happy to find a

small amount of that made her exceedingly tired. Melatonin is another

possibility. There are also several prescription sleep meds which are safe

for kids, perhaps your doctor will consider prescribing another. I don't

think of any of these things as a long-term solution but they were helpful

to Kel in getting over the hump.

It's truly wonderful that Kim has been able to boss back her bedtime

reassurance questions to such a low level. In the end the most helpful

thing will be CBT aimed at the vomiting and bad things worries, which boost

her anxiety level high at bedtime. Does Kim have a therapist who is doing

CBT with her? If so I would ask that these worries be targeted ASAP.

As a practical point, have you considered an after-dinner nap for you?

Getting some sleep yourself is one of the best things you can do to help

Kim.

Kel has been sleeping fine for well over a year now, so though things may

seem hopeless now, please have hope that this problem can be solved.

Kathy R in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: <dlsak@...>

> The main reason I haven't posted is sleep deprivation. Kim(10 years old)

> can't get to sleep before 3 or 4am and I can't sleep until I know she is

> finally settled. She has made progress with her reassurance

questions...down

> to one from 12 or more but she still is afraid to close her eyes. Her

> obsession is vomiting or something bad happening and she is sure this will

> occur at night when she sleeps. She goes to bed around 10 and she is good

> about staying in bed and not coming in to us very often but she can't

settle

> down. She reads for hours, sometimes watches TV (shes not much of a TV

> watcher), draws and colors, plays cards...anything to keep her mind off

it.

> We have tried relaxation tapes and exercises. The doctor gave us xanax,

it

> didn't help. Then he gave her Ambien and that flipped her out. She had a

> panic attack from it because it made her feel dizzy and she was sure she

was

> going to be sick then. We have tried laying with her which forces her to

lay

> still and not play in her bed but she can still out last us by hours

without

> closing her eyes once. I have run out of things to try She is not in

> school and until we get this sleeping under control, I don't see her being

> able to go back and try. She is a zombie in the mornings and can sleep

all

> day if I let her, which I do not! ..............I'm tired.

[Guest guest]

Thanks to Kathy and Kathy for their quick responses...I am combining my

reply and then going to take a nap LOL !!!

In a message dated 01/09/2001 4:12:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,

kathyh@... writes:

<< One of the first things the psychiatrists got me to do with Steve was to

get him into his own room (he had moved back in with his older brother) and

not to go into his room to help him sleep. >>

Kim is in her own room after many years of sleeping on the floor in mine.

She threw up in my room from a stomach virus so she won't consider that

anymore. She doesnt really want us laying down with her but I find it forces

her to be with the lights out and not moving around so much. She does fall

asleep a bit earlier this way...2am instead of 3 or 4..but still not great or

acceptable. If we leave her alone we find all the lights on in the morning

or find her eating a snack at 2am or folding all the clothes in her room from

boredom (no such luck that she would have a folding laundry compulsion, she

only does this when i want her to be sleeping!!! )

<< Any chance of finding a therapist to do E & RP around her fears of vomiting,

etc.?\ >>

We are working hard at this..so far no luck. She has a wonderful therapist

but he has no experience with ERP so we are trying to find someone that does.

<< Is Kim taking an SSRI? Sorry I have a mind like a sieve and do not

remember. When Steve was obsessing all night we gave him Benadryl and it

really helped. >>

She started Prozac about 6 weeks ago, low dose. She had these sleep

problems way before the prozac so i doubt it is the cause. We haven't seen

much response yet and the Dr. just recently upped the dose. I really still

struggle with this because I don't want her on meds unless we have tried cbt

and ERP first. Anyway, we have tried Benadryl which works for one night and

then doesnt seem to make any difference after that.

<< P.S. You might want to try rewarding Kim for closing her eyes for ever

increasing periods of time, if she agrees to try this. >>

I recently tried this....told her to close her eyes for 20 minutes and then

she could open them for 5..we repeated that for 2 1/2 hours...I have one very

stubborn child!

In a message dated 01/09/2001 10:24:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,

klr@... writes:

<< What happens that allows your daughter to finally fall asleep around 3 or

4?

Have you tried moving bedtime forward, so that she may fall asleep earlier?

Ten o'clock seems a late starting time for now, with these serious sleeping

problems going on. Also, and this is hard, get her up in time for school,

even though you don't expect her to go. >>

Once she falls asleep she sleeps peacefully and could sleep for 10 hours if I

let her. I try to get her up and started at a normal time to keep a routine

going (It is sometimes very difficult to do) The house isn't settled down

enough to get her in bed before 10, even that is pushing it (hubby works

late, other kids around) and she wasn't an early to bed type kid even before

these OCD fears.

Nap time

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Lynn

[Guest guest]

HI Lynn:

One of the first things the psychiatrists got me to do with Steve was to

get him into his own room (he had moved back in with his older brother) and

not to go into his room to help him sleep. It was very hard as he was

really bad with insomnia and was a wreck and suicidal. However, to cope

with these problems we cannot afford to be very sleep deprived or else we

cannot cope ourselves. You must really be suffering from lack of sleep.

Any chance of finding a therapist to do E & RP around her fears of vomiting,

etc.?\

We found that relaxation only made Steve worse, more agitated. But we did

not let him have the light on to read or watch TV. Now he does listen to

music on his CD player.

Is Kim taking an SSRI? Sorry I have a mind like a sieve and do not

remember. When Steve was obsessing all night we gave him Benadryl and it

really helped. I know there are other parents on the list who have not

found this helpful, but it might help Kim.

What a good job Kim has done with reducing her reassurance seeking from 12

questions to 1. Please tell her how impressed I am at her ability to boss

back OCD. That is a tough nut to crack and you guys are making progress.

Do you have any idea what she is obsessing about at night? YOu might be

able to do some in-home E & RP around this and improve the bed time routine.

It is such a chore to help our kids with their sleep hygiene, but it is a

very important task for them to master.

For now if sleeping is a crisis you might want to both get some good sleep

whenever you can, even in day time and then work on moving her sleep

schedule to a more typical and manageable time in steps. What we found

helped with the sleep problems was getting the OCD more under control with

E & RP and meds. Good luck, take care, aloha, Kathy

P.S. You might want to try rewarding Kim for closing her eyes for ever

increasing periods of time, if she agrees to try this. K.

At 08:53 AM 01/09/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>Sorry I haven't posted in a while. I have been thinking about you all and

>have been reading everyone's posts. I am grateful to Jackie and for

>having the courage to let 48hrs into their home and share with us their

>difficult struggle. I am in awe of Ellen having to face the difficult

>decision of hospitalizing and having the courage to do what is best

>for her child. Everyone amazes me on this list!

>

>The main reason I haven't posted is sleep deprivation. Kim(10 years old)

>can't get to sleep before 3 or 4am and I can't sleep until I know she is

>finally settled. She has made progress with her reassurance

questions...down

>to one from 12 or more but she still is afraid to close her eyes. Her

>obsession is vomiting or something bad happening and she is sure this will

>occur at night when she sleeps. She goes to bed around 10 and she is good

>about staying in bed and not coming in to us very often but she can't settle

>down. She reads for hours, sometimes watches TV (shes not much of a TV

>watcher), draws and colors, plays cards...anything to keep her mind off it.

>We have tried relaxation tapes and exercises. The doctor gave us xanax, it

>didn't help. Then he gave her Ambien and that flipped her out. She had a

>panic attack from it because it made her feel dizzy and she was sure she was

>going to be sick then. We have tried laying with her which forces her to

lay

>still and not play in her bed but she can still out last us by hours without

>closing her eyes once. I have run out of things to try She is not in

>school and until we get this sleeping under control, I don't see her being

>able to go back and try. She is a zombie in the mornings and can sleep all

>day if I let her, which I do not! ..............I'm tired.

>

>Thanks for listening,

>Lynn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01/10/2001 8:06:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,

j.monnens@... writes:

<< There is a new " sleeping pill " out called Sonata that simply helps a

person get

to sleep. >>

Thanks Jule, I will ask her doctor about this today!

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Lynn:

There is a new " sleeping pill " out called Sonata that simply helps a person get

to sleep. It is very short acting, so there is no hung over feeling -- and it

won't help someone who has trouble sleeping all night. It was given to me when

I was having trouble with waking up in the middle of the night unable to go back

to sleep. I've taken it as late as 3AM and been able to get up at 6 to go to

work. You might ask the doc about using Sonata short term to help your daughter

break the staying awake habit.

Jule

[Guest guest]

HI Lynn:

I know this sleep stuff is very hard on the family, but you might want to

change everyone's schedules to accommodate getting your daughter to sleep

earlier, e.g. everyone goes to bed earlier, shift workers tip toe around

the house after 8:30 p.m., etc.

re: the light out and not doing things. It is very hard to control what

they are doing when you are sleeping. YOu could take turns monitoring her

behavior or you could find other ways to control things when you are

sleeping, e.g. remove light bulb or remove switch mechanism for lights that

get turned on after lights out. I would start this by saying that you

expect lights to be out and stay out, and if this is not possible, then you

will make sure the light is out by preventing it from being turned on.

ALso let her know in advance what will happen re: negative consequence if

you awaken and find a violation of this lights out arrangement. We found

moving bedtime 1/4 hour earlier for a wide range of infractions worked

really well.

If you can't find E & RP resources you may want to reconsider the meds

situation as your daughter is suffering and needs help. I can really

understand why she cannot sleep until exhaustion overcomes her if she is

dealing with untreated OCD every night.

When you did the eye closing exposure, did this trigger an anxiety spike in

your daughter? You have to look for that, if it does not trigger anxiety

then the exposure needs to be redesigned. Another possible problem can be

that even though she is closing her eyes she may be performing mental

rituals which are neutralizing any anxiety.

Sometimes what people try for this is the opposite, make sure you never

close your eyes, no blinking, etc. As this is impossible, you can do this

as a kind of paradoxical therapy and then joke about how OCD must be mixed

up making rules about closing eyes, and how you need to use toothpicks to

prop her eyes open so OCD can win for sure!

Good luck with this tough OCD issue, take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

you wrote:

>Thanks to Kathy and Kathy for their quick responses...I am combining my

>reply and then going to take a nap LOL !!!

>

[Guest guest]

This makes sense, I was thinking more of the relaxation things many people

do to wind down before bed, such as watch TV. Though this is helpful for

many I guess, in my daughter it was counterproductive. It's funny I've

never been able to fall asleep watching or listening to TV either.

As my daughter was a young five at the time we were experiencing the bedtime

anxiety and insomnia, I often stayed in her room with her until she was

finally asleep. Once asleep she tended to stay asleep til morning, so

there was usually no middle-of-the-night activity to monitor or cope with.

I second Kathy H's comment that the rest of the household may need to take

Kim's situation into account and change their routines accordingly until the

problem is resolved. Lynn I think you are very patient because by now I

know I would have insisted on this! No control issues here :-)

Kathy R in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: " Kathy Hammes " <kathyh@...>

> HI Lynn:

>

> I know this sleep stuff is very hard on the family, but you might want to

> change everyone's schedules to accommodate getting your daughter to sleep

> earlier, e.g. everyone goes to bed earlier, shift workers tip toe around

> the house after 8:30 p.m., etc.

>

> re: the light out and not doing things. It is very hard to control what

> they are doing when you are sleeping. YOu could take turns monitoring her

> behavior or you could find other ways to control things when you are

> sleeping, e.g. remove light bulb or remove switch mechanism for lights

that

> get turned on after lights out.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy:

I had to chuckle:

At 08:06 PM 01/10/2001 -0500, you wrote:

Lynn I think you are very patient because by now I know I would have

insisted on this! No control issues here :-)

>

>Kathy R in Indiana

In our family, when Steve really wants to get into trouble he complains

that mom wears the pants in the family. :-((

Aloha, Kathy (h)

kathyh@...

[Guest guest]

So long as Dad's not wearing the dresses . . . Sorry, I'll go to bed now.

:-)

Kathy R in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: " Kathy Hammes " <kathyh@...>

> In our family, when Steve really wants to get into trouble he complains

> that mom wears the pants in the family. :-((

[Guest guest]

HI Kathy:

What about a kilt, my heritage is ish? <VBG> hehehehehe. ALoha,

Kathy (h)

kathyh@...

At 11:23 PM 01/10/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>So long as Dad's not wearing the dresses . . . Sorry, I'll go to bed now.

>:-)

>

>Kathy R in Indiana

>

>----- Original Message -----

>From: " Kathy Hammes " <kathyh@...>

>

>> In our family, when Steve really wants to get into trouble he complains

>> that mom wears the pants in the family. :-((

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Judy,

I, too, had serious sleeping problems for a long time. Valerian on its own

did not help at all. Somebody suggested to try a combination of valerian

with lemon balm, which made the difference. I started off with 2 tabs every

evening and after some time reduced to one. Today I take it only

occasionally, when I don't feel tired at night and did not get too much

sleep the night before either. I used to take GABA (750mg) 1/2 hour before

taking the valerian/lemon balm, and keep taking it every night.

I also experimented with Melantonin, and 5-HTP, but both make me feel very

drowsy the next day (could be that the doses I took was too strong). So

far, the valerian/lemon balm seems the best solution for me.

Shalom

Katrin

Katrin

Tel/Fax 972-3-6858868

e-mail: katrin@...

Re: Digest Number 1783

In a message dated 4/27/01 3:12:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

> Re: [cfs_research] sleep problems

> >

> >

> > > Hi everyone!

> > > Like many CFS'ers I have sleep problems and want to speak with my

doctor

> > > about some chemical or natural assistance. So far the valerian etc.

> stuff

> > > hasn't been successful and I would like to ask you all the following:

> > > 1) Have any of you used melatonin to regulate sleep? If so, how is

it?

> > > Dosage? Side effects?

> -------------------------------------------I've used Melatonin off and on

> for many years at doses of less than 1 mg and found it to be effective

with

> no side effects.

> However, my rheumatologist suggested SAM-e and it has made a world of

> difference for me.

[Guest guest]

Dear Katrin,

Many thanks, hope that you are well, you can backchannel me and let me know

what's going on with you.

Take care,

Judy B.

Re: [cfs_research] sleep problems

> > >

> > >

> > > > Hi everyone!

> > > > Like many CFS'ers I have sleep problems and want to speak with my

> doctor

> > > > about some chemical or natural assistance. So far the valerian etc.

> > stuff

> > > > hasn't been successful and I would like to ask you all the

following:

> > > > 1) Have any of you used melatonin to regulate sleep? If so, how is

> it?

> > > > Dosage? Side effects?

> > -------------------------------------------I've used Melatonin off and

on

> > for many years at doses of less than 1 mg and found it to be effective

> with

> > no side effects.

> > However, my rheumatologist suggested SAM-e and it has made a world

of

> > difference for me.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Hi Judy,

>

> I, too, had serious sleeping problems for a long time. Valerian on its own

> did not help at all. Somebody suggested to try a combination of valerian

> with lemon balm,...

Did the Valerian and lemon balm come together in one supplement? How

much do you take?

Jackie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/01 1:09:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

french10@... writes:

> Did the Valerian and lemon balm come together in one supplement? How

> much do you take?

>

I would take 1000mg Valerian. You ought to combine Kava with it too for a

tripple wammy formula.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I only have " book " knowledge of this, Ben's erp has more been him and

me touching things (like light switches) together and he is not

deeply entrenched. BUT, from what I've read, it sounds like you are

doing the right thing - keep the erp to small victories, and

celebrate the two minutes that she spent by herslf on the floor, let

her know how proud you are that she did that and that you know how

scary it was and that she was very brave etc.....if my understanding

is correct, the beginning is the hardest and most anxiety producing

time for a child, so, just because you are only taking teeny tiny

steps now, doesn't mean the " whole " trip will continue that long. At

some point, the proverbial dam breaks and it becomes much easier for

the child.

I'd like feedback from others more experienced here too, but isn't

increasing from 2 minutes to 5 minutes _possibly_ too big of an

initial jump? Again, this is only from what I've read, but in

situations, when the erp is highly anxiety producing and, especially

with a young child, it might be best to keep her at two minutes until

she has " conquered " that two minutes and can stay there without undue

stress....._then_ increase the time in whatever incremental amounts

she can successfully achieve. AND, be prepared for some back sliding

at times when you might have to drop the time period back to the last

successful moment before beginning to increase times again.

I hope this is helpful!

Terry

> Hi,

> Well, last night my 8 y/o Belle was supposed to start with an ERP

> exercise regarding going to sleep alone. The therapist said to put

a

> sleeping bag next to the bed and make her sleep in it, instead of

on

> our bed. Last night was the first night. She just got up after

> trying for 2 minutes and was crying and said she couldn't do it,

she

> would try tommorrow, she was too tired. Not knowing what to do,

and

> having read this thread for some time, I told her tonight she had

to

> lay there in the dark for 5 minutes without talking and tommorrow

10,

> etc. At this rate it will take months to get to her bedroom. Did

I

> do the right thing? She seemed genuinely scared.

> Any input well help,

>

[Guest guest]

Hi !

Just my opinion/viewpoint on this.

Kids sleeping w/parents is a controversial subject by itself. And

viewpoints probably differ just depending on where in the world you

live, how you were brought up, etc. It's sort of like people who let

their babies cry each night to teach them they won't be picked up or

to teach them to go to sleep on their own; then there's those who go

ahead and pick them up and don't let them cry - opposite opinions on

what a child needs/how to raise them.

I think that your idea of having her lay there for a few minutes and

increasing it is a good one. Maybe you can lower the time - say,

even to just a minute the first night, even a couple nights after

that, then to 3 minutes or whatever. I'd just keep talking to her

about WHY she has to learn to do this.

I know you've written about this before, but doe she say WHY she

can't or what she is scared of? Noises or imaginary things, scary

thoughts? Or does she just feel more secure in the same room/bed?

I had a VERY good imagination as a kid. I slept with my light on for

years; then when I finally as a teen made myself sleep without it, I

slept with the covers over my head for years - and LOTS of stuffed

animals! :-)

I WAS OK by the time I became an adult, got my own apartment, etc.

Except for when I'd read those thriller/mystery books.....then the

light would go back on!!

I feel like I can almost guarantee you she WON'T be doing this as a

teenager! She'll be pushing you out of her room and locking the door!

> Hi,

> Well, last night my 8 y/o Belle was supposed to start with an ERP

> exercise regarding going to sleep alone. The therapist said to put

a

> sleeping bag next to the bed and make her sleep in it, instead of

on

> our bed. Last night was the first night. She just got up after

> trying for 2 minutes and was crying and said she couldn't do it,

she

> would try tommorrow, she was too tired. Not knowing what to do,

and

> having read this thread for some time, I told her tonight she had

to

> lay there in the dark for 5 minutes without talking and tommorrow

10,

> etc. At this rate it will take months to get to her bedroom. Did

I

> do the right thing? She seemed genuinely scared.

> Any input well help,

>

[Guest guest]

Judy/thread

Last nite Belle laid in her sleeping bag for 5 minutes, no talking!

Excellent! Tonite maybe 7 minutes. Small successes. She was very

proud.

Thanks for all your input.

> I think your approach was sensible. I predict it will take less

time than you think to reach the goal. As she finds hersself

successful, it will become easier.

>

> Judy in Baltimore

> Sleep problems

>

>

> Hi,

> Well, last night my 8 y/o Belle was supposed to start with an ERP

> exercise regarding going to sleep alone. The therapist said to

put a

> sleeping bag next to the bed and make her sleep in it, instead of

on

> our bed. Last night was the first night. She just got up after

> trying for 2 minutes and was crying and said she couldn't do it,

she

> would try tommorrow, she was too tired. Not knowing what to do,

and

> having read this thread for some time, I told her tonight she had

to

> lay there in the dark for 5 minutes without talking and tommorrow

10,

> etc. At this rate it will take months to get to her bedroom.

Did I

> do the right thing? She seemed genuinely scared.

> Any input well help,

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Great news !

Celebrate the small successes! That was a big step for Belle! That's

great that she felt so proud - you're helping her to begin to feel in

control again - to feel empowered!

Terry

> > I think your approach was sensible. I predict it will take less

> time than you think to reach the goal. As she finds hersself

> successful, it will become easier.

> >

> > Judy in Baltimore

> > Sleep problems

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> > Well, last night my 8 y/o Belle was supposed to start with an

ERP

> > exercise regarding going to sleep alone. The therapist said to

> put a

> > sleeping bag next to the bed and make her sleep in it, instead

of

> on

> > our bed. Last night was the first night. She just got up after

> > trying for 2 minutes and was crying and said she couldn't do

it,

> she

> > would try tommorrow, she was too tired. Not knowing what to

do,

> and

> > having read this thread for some time, I told her tonight she

had

> to

> > lay there in the dark for 5 minutes without talking and

tommorrow

> 10,

> > etc. At this rate it will take months to get to her bedroom.

> Did I

> > do the right thing? She seemed genuinely scared.

> > Any input well help,

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Great! Tell Belle we're ALL pulling for her!

> > I think your approach was sensible. I predict it will take less

> time than you think to reach the goal. As she finds hersself

> successful, it will become easier.

> >

> > Judy in Baltimore

> > Sleep problems

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> > Well, last night my 8 y/o Belle was supposed to start with an

ERP

> > exercise regarding going to sleep alone. The therapist said to

> put a

> > sleeping bag next to the bed and make her sleep in it, instead

of

> on

> > our bed. Last night was the first night. She just got up after

> > trying for 2 minutes and was crying and said she couldn't do

it,

> she

> > would try tommorrow, she was too tired. Not knowing what to

do,

> and

> > having read this thread for some time, I told her tonight she

had

> to

> > lay there in the dark for 5 minutes without talking and

tommorrow

> 10,

> > etc. At this rate it will take months to get to her bedroom.

> Did I

> > do the right thing? She seemed genuinely scared.

> > Any input well help,

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

,

Hooray for Belle and congratulation to you!!! What a great dad!

Keep up the good work!

Melinda S.

DAllas

> > I think your approach was sensible. I predict it will take less

> time than you think to reach the goal. As she finds hersself

> successful, it will become easier.

> >

> > Judy in Baltimore

> > Sleep problems

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> > Well, last night my 8 y/o Belle was supposed to start with an

ERP

> > exercise regarding going to sleep alone. The therapist said to

> put a

> > sleeping bag next to the bed and make her sleep in it, instead

of

> on

> > our bed. Last night was the first night. She just got up after

> > trying for 2 minutes and was crying and said she couldn't do

it,

> she

> > would try tommorrow, she was too tired. Not knowing what to

do,

> and

> > having read this thread for some time, I told her tonight she

had

> to

> > lay there in the dark for 5 minutes without talking and

tommorrow

> 10,

> > etc. At this rate it will take months to get to her bedroom.

> Did I

> > do the right thing? She seemed genuinely scared.

> > Any input well help,

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello , yes this plan of gradually lengthening Belle's exposure to

her fear--sleeping alone--is the cornerstone of good ERP. She *will* feel

perhaps considerable anxiety and be genuinely scared **at first** and the

idea is she will begin to notice how her anxiety falls each time she does

this exposure. When she's comfortable staying in the sleeping bag for 5

minutes it's time to increase to 10 minutes, etc. It's important to wait

until her anxiety is quite low before moving on to a more challenging

exposure. Otherwise she doesn't receive the benefit of acclimating to the

anxiety before moving on, and this exposure exercise will get harder and

harder for her, and her fear seem more insurmountable--and OCD wins. It's

important that Belle wins.

I'd be surprised if it took literal months for her to end up back in her own

room. As a child gains more experience with ERP and experiences more " wins "

over OCD, their confidence increases and things tend to move along much more

quickly.

You are doing a good job. I know how upsetting watching your child suffer

can be--but OCD is causing her much more suffering than a five-minute ERP

exercise ever could.

Take care,

Kathy R. in Indiana

Sleep problems

> Hi,

> Well, last night my 8 y/o Belle was supposed to start with an ERP

> exercise regarding going to sleep alone. The therapist said to put a

> sleeping bag next to the bed and make her sleep in it, instead of on

> our bed. Last night was the first night. She just got up after

> trying for 2 minutes and was crying and said she couldn't do it, she

> would try tommorrow, she was too tired. Not knowing what to do, and

> having read this thread for some time, I told her tonight she had to

> lay there in the dark for 5 minutes without talking and tommorrow 10,

> etc. At this rate it will take months to get to her bedroom. Did I

> do the right thing? She seemed genuinely scared.

> Any input well help,

>

[Guest guest]

That's the problem though with OCD--**it** makes the rules about where kids

sleep and under what conditions, and takes this choice away from parents and

kids. Belle's OCD could just as easily have kept her from ever entering

her Dad's bedroom, due to contamination or whatever. OCD and its " rules "

around sleeping makes 's personal beliefs about children and parents

sleeping together a moot point, as well as whatever Belle would prefer if

she didn't have OCD to contend with. The ERP they are beginning will put

the responsibility for making this decision back where it belongs! :-)

Kathy R. in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: <@...>

> Hi !

> Just my opinion/viewpoint on this.

> Kids sleeping w/parents is a controversial subject by itself. And

> viewpoints probably differ just depending on where in the world you

> live, how you were brought up, etc. It's sort of like people who let

> their babies cry each night to teach them they won't be picked up or

> to teach them to go to sleep on their own; then there's those who go

> ahead and pick them up and don't let them cry - opposite opinions on

> what a child needs/how to raise them.

>

> I think that your idea of having her lay there for a few minutes and

> increasing it is a good one. Maybe you can lower the time - say,

> even to just a minute the first night, even a couple nights after

> that, then to 3 minutes or whatever. I'd just keep talking to her

> about WHY she has to learn to do this.

>

> I know you've written about this before, but doe she say WHY she

> can't or what she is scared of? Noises or imaginary things, scary

> thoughts? Or does she just feel more secure in the same room/bed?

>

> I had a VERY good imagination as a kid. I slept with my light on for

> years; then when I finally as a teen made myself sleep without it, I

> slept with the covers over my head for years - and LOTS of stuffed

> animals! :-)

> I WAS OK by the time I became an adult, got my own apartment, etc.

> Except for when I'd read those thriller/mystery books.....then the

> light would go back on!!

>

> I feel like I can almost guarantee you she WON'T be doing this as a

> teenager! She'll be pushing you out of her room and locking the door!

[Guest guest]

The ERP they are beginning will put the responsibility for making

this decision back where it belongs! :-)

VERY GOOD POINT!!!

> That's the problem though with OCD--**it** makes the rules about

where kids

> sleep and under what conditions, and takes this choice away from

parents and

> kids. Belle's OCD could just as easily have kept her from ever

entering

> her Dad's bedroom, due to contamination or whatever. OCD and

its " rules "

> around sleeping makes 's personal beliefs about children and

parents

> sleeping together a moot point, as well as whatever Belle would

prefer if

> she didn't have OCD to contend with. The ERP they are beginning

will put

> the responsibility for making this decision back where it

belongs! :-)

>

> Kathy R. in Indiana

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <@h...>

> > Hi !

> > Just my opinion/viewpoint on this.

> > Kids sleeping w/parents is a controversial subject by itself. And

> > viewpoints probably differ just depending on where in the world

you

> > live, how you were brought up, etc. It's sort of like people who

let

> > their babies cry each night to teach them they won't be picked up

or

> > to teach them to go to sleep on their own; then there's those who

go

> > ahead and pick them up and don't let them cry - opposite opinions

on

> > what a child needs/how to raise them.

> >

> > I think that your idea of having her lay there for a few minutes

and

> > increasing it is a good one. Maybe you can lower the time - say,

> > even to just a minute the first night, even a couple nights after

> > that, then to 3 minutes or whatever. I'd just keep talking to her

> > about WHY she has to learn to do this.

> >

> > I know you've written about this before, but doe she say WHY she

> > can't or what she is scared of? Noises or imaginary things, scary

> > thoughts? Or does she just feel more secure in the same room/bed?

> >

> > I had a VERY good imagination as a kid. I slept with my light on

for

> > years; then when I finally as a teen made myself sleep without

it, I

> > slept with the covers over my head for years - and LOTS of stuffed

> > animals! :-)

> > I WAS OK by the time I became an adult, got my own apartment, etc.

> > Except for when I'd read those thriller/mystery books.....then the

> > light would go back on!!

> >

> > I feel like I can almost guarantee you she WON'T be doing this as

a

> > teenager! She'll be pushing you out of her room and locking the

door!

[Guest guest]

Re: sleep problems

Hello all- Please forgive my jumping in, but after 6 weeks in newborn land

(will I ever be able to wear a shirt without getting spit-up on the shoulders?!)

I needed to engage another part of my brain, so here goes... (notice I've taken

up the issue of sleep problems, something I can resonate with right now!)

When I work with kids who sleep in their parent's room, bed, etc. it may be for

an OCD reason (unwanted intrusive thoughts, rituals about harm etc) or more of a

separation fear (I can't sleep away from mom), but I often do a similar

intervention. This is a combination of some good, accurate self-talk about

being alone (or whatever the fear may be) as well as behavioral practice in a

hierarchical fashion. If the separation issues are paramount, I will for

example have the child start by tackling being in a room (doing a fun activity)

alone NOT at night, perhaps in the early evening. I call this room time, and a

child builds up the amount of room time they can do. Gaining confidence at

being alone (or in the dark) is easier during the day than at night. Or doing

an " errand " on a different floor from the parent and walking, NOT running up the

stairs for dear life when the job is done.

Because I'm jumping in to the middle here without knowing anything about your

child, , this may be off base. I'm just wondering if there are other

easier separation situations that your child could try along side the sleeping

bag program that you've embarked on.

Whether it's an exposure, or a desensitization experience the key is eliciting a

moderate amount of anxiety. Too high and everyone will abandon the plan, too low

and it doesn't seem like a challenge (well- those can be good for practice too).

Hope this is helpful.

Tamar Chansky, Ph.D.