Re: Nax - side effect

[Guest guest]

>

> If you are excreting excess B vitamins, your urine is often very yellow -

> almost fluorescent. Getting your adrenals functioning again has the effect

>

Thanks Sheila, yup the wee is a spectacular colour, so does that and the B12 and

folate levels indicate all is well with the Adrenals? I don't feel as though it

is!! Also I am not taking as T3.

Isabel

[Guest guest]

Hi Isobel,

B2 Riboflavin causes the bright yellow wee. I have some B2 caps & the powder can

be seen & yep it's very very yellow. In fact looks like saffron or Tumeric.

It has nothing to do with any other B vits & doesn't tell you if you have enough

B12 or Folate or anything else actually.

I would NOT stop the B12 or Folate. Very important for methylation cycle which

as we age we get less efficient in. Also as we increase metabolism we need MORE

vits/minerals not less!

You cannot overdose B12. There is no known toxicity at any level.

Also POINTLESS testing B12 while you are on any B12 supps at all (even small

amounts in Multi's) as it will always be skewed high. In fact it takes up to 12

months OFF supps to test validly again.

As for Folate make sure if testing you test RBC Folate. Serum Folate is a

useless test & actually measures inactive Folic Acid. If you have trouble

converting to active Folate or have suboptimal B12 then Serum Folate can test

HIGH (because you can't use it). In fact there has been some research suggesting

HIGH Folic Acid is carcinogenic. Which is why the mandatory fortification of

flour & bread etc is so concerning.

In fact up to 40% of population has the MTHFR gene Mutation which means they

can't convert or can but do so VERY inefficiently. Much better to forget about

Folic Acid altogether and supp ACTIVE forms of Folate such as FolINic Acid

and/or 5-MTHF. I have had my family tested

and myself & both Twin sons all have the MTHFR Mutation.

My B12 tests are way way over the top of the ref range which is just fine &

dandy. Standard B12 testing only measures TOTAL B12 by the way. The only part of

that which you can use is the FREE unbound B12.

There are tests for this but very few Labs as yet offer it & is expensive.

So looking at Serum B12 is like relying on TOTAL T4 or T3 for Thyroid.

The only B vit you can overdose in is B6 which at high doses causes peripheral

symptoms. if you want to test any of the B's Thiamine (B1), Riboflavin (B2),

Niacin (B3), Pyridoxine (B6), RBC Folate you should stop supps for 3 days

before.

Lethal Lee

Sheila wrote: If you are excreting excess B vitamins, your urine is often very

yellow - almost fluorescent.

Isobel wrote: Thanks Sheila, yup the wee is a spectacular colour, so does that

and the B12 and folate levels indicate all is well with the Adrenals?

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

When I said ....

" B2 Riboflavin causes the bright yellow wee. I have some B2 caps & the powder

can be seen & yep it's very very yellow. In fact looks like saffron or Tumeric.

It has nothing to do with any other B vits & doesn't tell you if you have enough

B12 or Folate or anything else actually. "

....was in context to the enquiry of WHY pee was bright yellow.

Just saying the colouring is due to B2 only. Wasn't suggesting that you don't

need B2 nor that is needed to work synergistically with other B vits.

The B2 will be excreted in 2 scenarios...

1/ either you are taking too much for your needs

2/ you can't use it because other vits needed to utilise are too low

I see #1 as a GOOD thing showing you are taking a sufficiency.

Assuming that is that you ARE taking sufficient ACTIVE forms of all the others

you need (B12, B6, B9, etc)

Note here is a couple of links which shows how Vitamins & Minerals are

interlinked (possibly you have seen before)...

Mineral assimilation

http://www.a-nutritional-supplements.com/j-mineral-deficiency.htm

Vitamin assimilation Author: Isabelle Faith

http://www.a-nutritional-supplements.com/j-vitamin-deficiency.htm

I have noticed that many folks while they are taking B Vits are often taking

either low doses, wrong form (INACTIVE forms like Folic Acid, Cyanocobalamin

etc) or taking least absorbable form (eg. B12 oral tabs are VERY low

absorbtion).

Here's some reading that may be helpful....

Bioactive B Vits

RT3_T3/messages/48976?threaded=1 & m=e & var=1 & \

tidx=1

B12, Folate other B's

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=14518 & p=117782#p117782

Vit B Research Results (scroll down to 5th post)

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=6 & t=1967 & p=18221

Ramblings about Folinic Acid

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=13852

Homocysteine & B Group Vits

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=4 & t=2395 & p=19542

B6 & Health Isues

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=15 & t=13880

Additional B6

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=15 & t=10037

Question B12 & Folate (Scroll down to 9th Post)

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=14518 & p=117782#p117782

Lethal Lee

Sheila wrote: thought riboflavin (vit B2) is needed to activate vitamin B6, as

well as being an active ingredient in vitamin B12 and vitamin B complex, plus it

is in many of the multivitamins - all of which will show up bright fluorescent

urine if the body can't use it..

[Guest guest]

Hi Isobel,

In reply to your email....

Isobel asked :I saw all of the links you posted but wondered if you might be

able to summarize which 'type' of vitamins/mins should be used to ensure the

active form's?

As explained in the thread I posted...

Active B Forms

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=14518 & p=117782#p117782

--------------------------------------------------------

B1 Thiamin

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient & dbid=100

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiamine

Thiamine is mainly the transport form of the vitamin, while the active forms are

phosphorylated thiamine derivatives.

There are four known natural thiamine phosphate derivatives:

1/ Thiamine Triphosphate (TTP)

2/ Thiamin Monophosphate (TMP)

3/ Thiamin Diphosphate (TDP) sometimes called Thiamin Pyrophosphate (TPP) or

Cocarboxylase

4/ Adenosine Thiamine Triphosphate (ATTP) & Adenosine Thiamine Diphosphate

(ATDP) recently discovered

A synthetic derivative called Benfotiamine is effective for the treatment of

diabetic retinopathy, neuropathy, and nephropathy.

It is thought that treatment with Benfotiamine leads to increased intracellular

Thiamine Diphosphate levels

-----------------------------------------------

B2 Riboflavin

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient & dbid=93

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riboflavin

Active form is Riboflavin 5'–Phosphate (R-5-P)

eg.

http://www.iherb.com/Riboflavin-5-Phosphate-60-Veggie-Caps/18434?at=0

-----------------------------------------------

B3 Niacin

http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nu ... cysymptoms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin

1/ Niacin/Nicotinic Acid converts to Nicotinamide, can cause flushing

2/ Nicotinamide (aka Niacinamide) does not cause flushing

3/ Inositol Hexaniconitate a " No Flush " popular form of dietary supplement

however does not have the Cholesterol lowering affects of Niacin

-----------------------------------------------

B5 Pantothenic Acid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantothenic_acid

1/ Pantothenic Acid

2/ Calcium Pantothenate (a salt of Pantothenic Acid) & Pantothenol are both

inactive forms & found in most supplements

3/ Pantetheine (a monomer of Pantothenic Acid) is known as and is an

intermediate in the production of Coenzyme A by the body.

4/ Pantethine (dimeric form of Pantothenic Acid) is considered the more

biologically active form

Eg's

http://www.iherb.com/Pantethine-60-Veggie-Caps/18539?at=0

http://www.aor.ca/html/products.php?id=131

------------------------------------------------

B6 Actually a group/complex called Pyridoxine, Pyridoxal, Pyridoxamine

Most supps have inactive Pyridoxine Hydrochloride

Active forms are...

1/ Pyridoxine-5-Phosphate (found in Plants)

2/ Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate (found in Animals) FDA is attempting to ban

3/ Pyridoxamine-5-Phosphate (found in Animals) FDA already banned from

supplements

eg. http://www.iherb.com/Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate-180-Veggie-Caps/18472?at=0

----------------------------------------------

B9 Folate

Many supps contain inactive & synthetic Folic Acid

Active forms are....

1/ Folinic Acid

Eg's

http://www.iherb.com/Folacal-Folate-60-Veggie-Caps/18482?at=0

http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/folinic.html

2/ 5-Methyl-tetrahydrofolate (5-MTHF)

eg http://www.iherb.com/Folate-5-MTHF-60-Veggie-Caps/18447?at=0

---------------------------------------------

B12 Cobalamin

http://www.vitamin-update.com/definition.cfm/id/10.html

http://saffermion.com/Booket%20for%20Hicobal.pdf

Five forms of B12 have been detected:

1/ Cyanocobalamin (least absorbable) and has a Cyanide molecule attached. Most

supps contain this inactive & synthetic form

2/ Hydroxycobamine converts (ie. Is a precursor) to Methyl & Adenyl forms

3/ Methylcobamine this active form acts on the nervous system (promotes

myelinisation.)

Eg Jarrow Methylcobalamin

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1 & pid=117

4/ Adenosylcobalamine (aka Dibencozide) this active form acts more directly on

muscles and provides a quick burst of energy, more difficult to find supps with

this

Eg. Vit B12 Dibencozide (aka Adenosylcobalamine) Country Life

http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-Active-B-12-Dibencozide-3000-mcg-60-Lozenges/1\

637?at=0

5/ Sulphitocobalamin

=========================================================

Here is my personal B Vit schedule

1/ I alternate 1 sublingual daily of 2 active Vit B12 forms

Vit B12 5000mcg Methylcobalamin Sublingual Jarrow

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1 & pid=117

Vit B12 3000mcg Dibencozide (aka Adenosylcobalamine) Country Life

http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-Active-B-12-Dibencozide-3000-mcg-60-Lozenges/1\

637?at=0

2/ Folate I alternate 1 capsule daily of 2 active forms

Vit B9 Folacal Thorne Research

http://www.iherb.com/Folacal-Folate-60-Veggie-Caps/18482?at=0

Vit B9 5-MTHF Thorne Research

http://www.iherb.com/Folate-5-MTHF-60-Veggie-Caps/18447?at=0

3/ B2 Riboflavin

Vit B2 Riboflavin 5 Phosphate Thorne Research

http://www.iherb.com/Riboflavin-5-Phosphate-60-Veggie-Caps/18434?at=0

4/ Vit B6 Pyridoxine

1 capsule lunchtime

Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate Thorne Research

http://www.iherb.com/http://www.iherb.com/Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate-180-Veggie-Caps/\

18472?at=0-180-Veggie-Caps/18472?at=0

5/ Multi B

2 caps daily (1 am & 1 pm)

Basic B Thorne Research

http://www.iherb.com/Basic-B-Complex-60-Veggie-Caps/18791?at=0

6/ NeoB12 1000mcg Hydroxycoalamin IM Injection

I self inject ~ 2weeks

Isobel: Also would you enlarge on your comment about folate being carcinogenic?

I didn't say Folate was carcinogenic. I said FOLIC ACID may be.

Folic Acid is NOT Folate. It is a synthetic approximation of Folate. It does NOT

occur in nature either in plants nor animals. Our ONLY source of Folic Acid is

from fortified foods and supplements. Folic Acid must be metabolised in the

Liver & some folks do that better than others. That may be because of their age,

or because of Genetic polymorphisms (genetic mutations). It may also be because

of the sheer amount people are ingesting (either from mandated Fortified foods

and/or supplementation). Whichever the problem is they are now seeing

UNMETABOLISED Folic Acid in peoples blood stream.

Personally I try to avoid Folic Acid as much as possible. It is mandatory in

Australia too. I don't know why ANYONE would want to take it rather than actual

REAL Folate anyway? I already know I need real Folate as I have a confirmed

MTHFR Gene Mutation. In fact up to 43% of folks have this it is a VERY common

mutation.

Heres some links re Folic Acid

--------------------------------------------------------

Folic acid fortification: the good, the bad, and the puzzle of vitamin B-12

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/1/3

--------------------------------------------------------

Folate Supplementation: Too Much of a Good Thing?

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/15/2/189.full

Initial results suggest that the net effect of folic acid fortification on

individual colon cancer risk is modified by age:

WHEREAS CHILDREN MAY BE MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE REDUCED COLORECTAL CANCER

RATES in the future, RATES AMONG MIDDLE-AGED ADULTS ARE LIKELY TO INCREASE.

In a preliminary cross-sectional study of 104 postmenopausal women, we reported

an inverse U-shaped relationship between folate from dietary sources and

supplements and natural killer cell cytotoxicity (41). Natural killer cells are

part of the innate immune response and low cytotoxicity may increase cancer risk

(42). UNMETABOLIZED FOLIC ACID WAS DETECTED IN 78% OF FASTING PLASMA SAMPLES

FROM THE PARTICIPANTS. This is the first study reporting the presence of this

compound in healthy individuals who are not subjected to pharmacologic doses of

folic acid. THE PRESENCE OF UNMETABOLIZED FOLIC ACID WAS ASSOCIATED WITH

DECREASED NATURAL KILLER CYTOTOXICITY, AND A TREND TOWARD LOWER NATURAL KILLER

CYTOTOXICITY WITH GREATER AMOUNTS OF FOLIC ACID IN PLASMA WAS OBSERVED AMONG

OLDER WOMEN (>60 YEARS). Although the study should be considered preliminary, it

highlights the need for a better understanding of the relation of folate to

immune function. No clear mechanism for the association is established. It is

possible that a LOW CAPACITY TO METABOLIZE LARGE AMOUNTS OF FOLIC ACID, PERHAPS

CAUSED BY POLYMORPHISMS IN THE DIHYDROFOLATE REDUCTASE(DHFR) GENE (43), MAY PLAY

A ROLE. As shown in Fig. 1,

DHFR IS CRITICAL FOR REDUCING FOLIC ACID FOR ENTRY INTO FOLATE METABOLISM

FOLIC ACID IS INEXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE AND IS CHARACTERIZED BY GREATER

BIOAVAILABILITY THAN THE NATURAL FOLATES (44).

Nevertheless, IT IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO THE POLYGLUTAMATED FORMS OF FOOD FOLATES

and enters primarily via a different carrier system (Fig. 1); thus, it may have

different effects on folate-binding proteins and transporters (45).

---------------------------------------------

Science-based micronutrient fortification: which nutrients, how much, and how to

know? http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/279

----------------------------------------------

There are other vits helpful to take which you should take care to take ACTIVE

forms of..

Note all fat soluble Vits A,D,E,K like B Vits work together

see

Vit D - Must also take Vit A, E, K2 as well!!

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=15 & t=15100

1/CoQ10

CoQ10 Conversion Problems

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=15 & t=11597

CoQ10 & Thyroid Conversion

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=18894

Importance of CoQ10

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=12448

Ubiquinone is inactive Ubiquinol is active.

Avoid products containing Soy.

I take 100mg daily of this product...

Ubiquinol CoQH-CF Now Foods

http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/ProductsAlphabetically/M103128.htm

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=2383611782503574853 & at=0

2/ Vit E

Vit E without Soy

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=5888 & st=0 & sk=t & sd=a & start=\

15

Again avoid Soy take a NATURAL not synthetic form & get all 4 Tocopherol forms.

You can also take the 4 forms of Tocotrienals.

This is the product I take

Unique E (AC Grace Co)

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=8294 & at=0

About to add this one (will alternate with above)

http://www.iherb.com/A-C-Grace-Company-Unique-E-Tocotrienol-60-Capsules/12977?at\

=0

3/ Vit A

Vit A Question

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=17040 & p=139692 & hilit

Info on low TSH & Thyroid

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=7 & t=4123

Vit A for Better Use of iron

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=4 & t=19576

Avoid Betacarotene it is NOT Vit A. Take natural Vit A (Retinyl Palmitate) & not

synthetic (Retinyl Acetate).

Oil gelcaps are best as helps absorption.

Find an alcohol & Soy Free product.

Can find in 2500IU, 5000IU or 10000IU even 25000IU.

Better to get lower amount so dosing flexibility & suit differing ages

I take 10000IU daily (5000IU x 2).

4/ Vit D

Vit D Diagnosis & Testing (PTH, Calcium, Phosphorus, ALP)

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=7 & t=13881

Vit D Wiki

http://www.vitamindwiki.com/tiki-list_file_gallery.php

Vit D2 is Garbage

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=13315

Vit D Recommended Range

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=7 & t=13741

Cholecalciferol (D3) is human/animal form

Ergocalciferol (D2) is plant form

Oil gelcaps are better absorbed but avoid any products with Soy.

I prefer 1000IU gels as allows maximum flexibility in dosing adjustments between

Summer & Winter & between individuals

5/ Vit K2

Vit K2 without Soy

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=15 & t=14522

Vit K

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=2 & t=18071 & p=146439

Need K2 especially both Mk-4 & MK-7 for Calcium metabolism regulation

This product has both plus a moderate amount of K1

I take 1 cap daily of this product

Super K with Advanced K2 Complex (LEF)

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=2383611782503574853 & at=0

6/ Magnesium

Magnesium

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=15 & t=2559

Transdermal Mag (p5 of Mag thread)

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=15 & t=2559 & start=60

All oral forms are very low absorption & very unlikely to bring up RBC Magnesium

to optimal (top of range) level.

Note Serum Magnesium is a POOR indicator of body levels

I recommend Ancient Minerals Magnesium Oil I apply to legs & arms, top of feet

daily

7/ Omega 3

Excellent site to learn about Fish Oils

http://www.fishoilblog.com/

Fish Oil source of EPA/DHA, I think claims re Krill Oil are exaggerated & the

product is NOT treated for contaiminates/toxin removal nor is it 3rd party

tested/certified

I do NOT recommend Flax or Evening Primrose Oil.

Need minimum ~1200mg combined EPA/DHA

Essential to have Molecularly Distilled, 3rd party Certified & IFOS

approved/compliant.

Highly concentrated form (70-80%) is more cost effective & cuts down number of

caps needed per day.

I use Nordic Naturals Ultimate Omega Lemon

Only need 2 gelcaps a day to get 1200 mg requirement

http://www.iherb.com/Nordic-Naturals-Ultimate-Omega-1000-mg-180-Lemon-Flavored-S\

oft-Gels/12949?at=0

Lethal Lee