Re: OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing 5-Year-Old

[Guest guest]

I've nursed four children, and it's beyond me how you could " force " a child

to nurse against his will.

>

>Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing 5-Year-Old

>

> Associated Press

>Monday, December 11, 2000; Page A07

>

>

>

>CHICAGO, Dec. 10 –– A judge will hold a hearing Monday on a 6-year-old

>boy

>who was removed from his mother's custody because she was still

>breast-feeding him when he was 5, allegedly against his wishes.

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[Guest guest]

Here is another article from the Tribune:

MOTHER WHO BREASTFEEDS BOY, 6, FACES CUSTODY FIGHT

By Sue Ellen Christian and Deardorff

Tribune Staff Writers

December 10, 2000

In an exceptional case, Illinois child protection authorities have taken

a 6-year-old boy from the custody of a Champaign mother because she was

still breastfeeding him, allegedly against his wishes.

In the view of the mother fighting for the return of her only child, the

battle pits American norms about parenting against her right to raise

her

son as she sees fit--a style that includes allowing the boy to choose

when he quits nursing.

To state child welfare officials, the case is about abuse.

Authorities at the Department of Children and Family Services took the

boy from the 32-year-old woman's home after a baby-sitter called an

abuse

hot line and the child subsequently told investigators that he no longer

wanted to breastfeed, they said. The mother says she told investigators

her son never indicated he didn't want to nurse and that she would

continue to breastfeed as long as her son wished.

The agency has determined that the child's living situation constitutes

sexual molestation and risk of harm.

" Breastfeeding a child is not the issue, " says Deborah Kennedy, DCFS

regional administrator in the central region. " It's after he has stated

that it is unwanted and she had that information and didn't indicate she

would halt that activity ... then you have unwanted behavior on his part

and that constitutes abuse. "

She added: " In general, any contact between a sexual organ against the

will of the child constitutes abuse ... because it's breastfeeding, it's

a sensitive issue. "

On Monday, final arguments are scheduled in the family court case in

Champaign County, which alleges emotional harm to the boy. The case is

to

determine whether the boy was neglected or abused and whether he should

return home to his mother.

The mother says the misguided case is based on society's narrow ideas

about what constitutes good parenting.

Research shows that while rare, it is not unheard of for a child to be

nursing at 6.

Indeed, some pediatricians and child-rearing experts have come to

espouse

a revival of old parenting practices, such as extended breastfeeding and

sleeping in the same bed with children--what some call " co-sleeping. "

DCFS has said that co-sleeping was a factor in its decision to take the

child from the home. DCFS investigators say the woman slept naked with

the boy, which she denies.

" They are saying because you're not practicing Dr. Spock American-style

parenting, you're a bad mom, " says the petite, feisty woman who was born

on a farm in Downstate Illinois. " What about all those places in the

world where the family sleeps in one room and that is co-sleeping and

you're telling me all those people are maladjusted? It's cultural bias.

" My son would come to me and ask to nurse, " says the woman. " It's not

sexual. It was a closeness thing. When he's ready for it, he will ask to

end breastfeeding. "

A complete understanding of the case is elusive, in part because not all

the testimony and evidence is public. The judge in the Champaign County

case, Ann Einhorn, has refused to release any documents, and the state's

attorney as well as the lawyer representing the boy refuse to discuss

the

case.

(The Tribune editorial standard is not to name juveniles in

investigations of sexual abuse, so the names of the child and the

mother,

who have the same last name, have been withheld. In interviews, the

mother did not request anonymity.)

The woman is the oldest of nine children in a family that she says

practiced co-sleeping.

Her current home is a two-bedroom, second-floor apartment, cluttered

with

mounds of clothes, toys, newspapers and boxes of food through which

narrow pathways have been carved. Hoping her son will be home for

Christmas, she has purchased about a dozen presents--a scooter, a book,

the game Battleship--which sit stacked on the stairs.

The mother works part time at a liquor store and takes continuing

education classes. She never married the child's father, who now lives

in

Oregon and only recently has instigated contact with the boy. He did not

return phone calls from the Tribune.

The mother says she practices child-led weaning, which is supported by

the Schaumburg-based breastfeeding advocacy organization, La Leche

League

International, and allows the child to determine when he or she is done

nursing.

" My child was weaning himself, " she says, " he was nursing for 10 minutes

a day and on weekends a little more. I don't think DCFS has any right to

be involved in this decision between me and my child. "

Natural or the norm?

DCFS documents given to the Tribune by the mother indicate that the boy

told a child protection investigator that he no longer wanted to nurse

and had told his mom that; the mother says her son has never

communicated

that to her.

The documents also indicate that the boy told the investigator that he

still shared a bed with his mother and " sometimes when she does not have

clean clothes, she sleeps naked. " The boy told the investigator that he

always slept in clothes.

In an interview, the mother says she has not slept with him naked since

he was around age 3, when she stopped because her son commented that she

should put some clothes on. Though she has since moved, the mother says

her son did not have his own room or his own bed in their former

three-bedroom apartment.

Her parenting style and the way she was raised bring to the fore areas

of

child-rearing that many of today's parents keep private because they are

not seen as widely acceptable in society, experts say. While no

researcher supports forcing a child to nurse or co-sleeping naked if

that

creates discomfort for a child, they also say that co-sleeping and

extended nursing are both perfectly natural--it is society that makes

them seem unnatural.

Research shows that many women continue to nurse their children well

beyond infancy.

Dettwyler, an associate professor of anthropology and

nutrition

at Texas A & M University, conducted a study in the late 1990s on 1,280

children whose parents self-reported information about their

breastfeeding practices. Of the total, 375 children were still nursing

at

age 4, 212 children were nursing at age 5, and 67 children were nursing

at age 6, according to Dettwyler.

Baldwin, a Miami-based attorney who specializes in

breastfeeding cases and is an adviser to La Leche League International,

says " there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding at age 6. "

" You cannot make a child nurse; either the child has the need or does

not

have the need, " Baldwin said. " We have sexualized the breast to the

point

where we assume that it is a sexual thing rather than a tool for

nursing. "

Extended breastfeeding and co-sleeping often go hand-in-hand, experts

say.

" Other countries wouldn't even know there was a question to be asked

about where should my baby sleep, " said McKenna, a professor of

anthropology and the director of a mother-baby behavioral sleep lab at

the University of Notre Dame. " It is a recent Western concept engrained

in us, an emphasis on individualism and the idea that it's a moral

principle that early in life babies and children need to soothe

themselves. "

McKenna added: " In our society, we equate nudity with the potential for

sexuality. It may not be a sexual act at all in the minds of

participants; it is externally influenced viewpoints that make it so. "

He warned, however, that not all co-sleeping arrangements are

necessarily

healthy.

" The benefit of any kind of social behavior is determined by the context

in which it occurs, " McKenna said. " In a healthy human family, sleeping

arrangements can enhance that which is already good, or it could be the

case sleeping arrangements can enhance that which is already bad. "

Focus on boy's reaction

The Champaign case is similar to--but also critically different from--a

celebrated case out of New York state in 1991. In that case

Periggo's 3-year-old daughter Cherlyn was taken from her because Periggo

had strong feelings of sexual arousal when breastfeeding.

In the Champaign case, experts are divided on how the nursing was

affecting the boy.

A report by Champaign forensic psychologist Dr. Marty Traver,who

evaluated the boy upon referral from Judge Einhorn, described an alert,

relaxed child who expressed ambivalence about nursing.

" It is clear that [the boy] has suffered some emotional problems as a

result of his extended nursing, " Traver wrote. " Those problems however

do

not appear to rise to the level of abuse unless there is evidence that

[the boy's] mother nursed him for her own gratification. "

" The primary detriment from extended nursing in this case, was that [the

boy] was ashamed of doing so and did not feel socially appropriate in

doing so, " Traver's report states.

" A parent must weigh the damage done by participating in something

society does not approve of against the positive effects and advantages

of continuing to do so. In this case, as in many others, the parent and

child had to keep the continuing breastfeeding a secret because of

societal disapproval. This sets the child up to keep other secrets that

he cannot yet understand, " the report stated.

Traver also said it was not appropriate for the boy to continue to sleep

with his mother. " At this age, it would be psychologically harmful for

him to be in his mother's presence when she is nude. ... (The boy) must

learn to sleep in his own bed and soothe himself to sleep. "

But a report by Kate McDougall, a Catholic Social Service social worker

who is counseling the mother and child, concluded that while the

mother's

" parenting style may be considered somewhat permissive, this therapist

does not have concerns about [the boy's] safety while in her care. "

McDougall added that she saw no evidence of any abuse in the

relationship.

The boy " has come to feel ashamed and guilty about breastfeeding as a

result of his being removed from his mother's care due to their nursing.

This therapist has concerns that these feelings of shame and guilt will

be exacerbated by further separation, " McDougall wrote in a clinical

assessment report.

McDougall also stated in her report that she had no concerns about the

two sleeping in the same bed and recommended the boy be returned home.

The woman's public defender, DeThorne, said Traver's testimony

stated that the child was embarrassed.

" That shouldn't be a reason the state should get involved, " DeThorne

said. " She was doing something to him outside the norm, and [perhaps] he

didn't want to--that is open to dispute as well. "

He added: " Parents should be allowed to make decisions that might be out

of the norm. Most parents don't breastfeed at age of 6, but it doesn't

mean it's wrong for the child. "

Countered DCFS spokeswoman Martha : " There is a problem when the

mother is sleeping naked with a 6-year-old; we live in America and we

have our norms too.

" This is a case that not just DCFS but the state's attorney and judge

determined was inappropriate and was a form of abuse.

" It's inappropriate for a mother to be breastfeeding a child at 6 years

old and to be sleeping naked with him. The reason DCFS found it an issue

was we're looking at the area of sexual abuse when we say molestation.

There is risk of actual and emotional abuse. We are in the realm of

sexual abuse; that is the reason that we took the child out of the

mother's care. "

On Monday, Judge Einhorn will hear final arguments from both sides in

the

Champaign County case. Einhorn may decide on Monday, or she could wait

until a later date, to determine whether the boy was neglected or

abused.

If her determination is that the child was abused, another hearing will

be held to decide whether the child can go home or not, and to determine

a plan for the mother to get her son back.

Though she wants her son back, the mother also refuses to compromise her

methods.

" They took my son because I'm not following the DCFS cookbook on raising

a kid, " she says. " It's so outrageous, they need to admit they made a

mistake and drop it. "

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/12/00 10:17:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,

paris_sun@... writes:

<<

I've nursed four children, and it's beyond me how you could " force " a child

to nurse against his will. >>

your right there is no way.Sounds to me like people just think it is *gross*

and since she also does family bed she MUST BE molesting her son.LOL. That

poor woman and boy to be put through this.

sara

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/00 7:46:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,

lholm2@... writes:

<< The strangest thing about this whole story, to me, is that they're

claiming theis woman is *sexually molesting* her son by nursing.

I am totally missing the point here, where and how does the sexuality

come in here??????????????????

Lilian

>>

I think many women (and men) are made to believe that a woman's breasts are

for sexual pleasure and not necessarily just for breastfeeding. I'm not sure

where this manipulation came into play but when I was pregnant, I was

surrounded by breastfeeding advocates including the doctors, nurses and

nutritionists. I didn't breastfeed, however, but I did express and put into

bottles because I didn't feel comfortable breastfeeding, maybe because of the

above.

[Guest guest]

When did the DCFS decide on a legal age to stop sleeping with your

child? Have they been handing out extra beds and bedrooms to folks

who can't afford the extra space? Are there actually legal standards

on when to stop nursing and co-sleeping or is this up to the

discretion of the particular DCFS agent or office?

As someone on another forum pointed out, the 5 year old would say

that he didn't want to nurse- that's why he was self weaning. I

imagine that a little boy might change his mind every other day.

> Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing 5-Year-Old

>

> Associated Press

> Monday, December 11, 2000; Page A07

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think anyone who has not nursed a child for several years can

possibly understand the " dynamics " if you will. When my nursling turned 3,

I spent the entire next year talking about how when he turned 4 the milk

would " dry up " . I have no doubt he would have nursed longer had I let him.

He was weaned on his fourth birthday, but I can tell you from my experience,

my child was NOT nursing to appease me. I have never heard of a mother

" guilting " her child into nursing. You have to keep in mind, a 4 or 5 year

old that is nursing, has probably been nursing since the day he was born and

this is something very comforting and reassuring to them, not to mention

very natural. I nursed my child for as long as I did because he wanted to,

I wasn't thrilled about nursing for such a long time, but I knew that my

child was getting milk intended for humans, not milk intended for baby cows.

Not only that, they continue to get benefits from mom's milk for however

long they continue to nurse. It's amazing to me how people think it's okay

to take away mom's milk from a child and give him milk intended for cows,

and that's okay, but continue to feed him mother's milk, and they call it

abuse.

>From: " Terry and Hagerty " <thagerty@...>

>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

><Vaccinationsegroups>

>Subject: Re: OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing

>5-Year-Old

>Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:45:07 -0600

>

> >>I've nursed four children, and it's beyond me how you could " force " a

>child

>to nurse against his will.

>

><<

>

>I'm not saying this is what happened, but maybe the child felt guilted into

>it. Like if he didn't do it he would hurt his mom's feelings. Again I'm

>not saying this is the case in this instance, but a lot of children do

>things they don't want to do because their parents have an unnatural

>dependency on the child and the child feels it is their role to fill the

>parent's needs. I'm just addressing the fact that he didn't necessarily

>have to be " forced " to nurse to be doing it when he didn't want to.

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

>>I've nursed four children, and it's beyond me how you could " force " a

child

to nurse against his will.

<<

I'm not saying this is what happened, but maybe the child felt guilted into

it. Like if he didn't do it he would hurt his mom's feelings. Again I'm

not saying this is the case in this instance, but a lot of children do

things they don't want to do because their parents have an unnatural

dependency on the child and the child feels it is their role to fill the

parent's needs. I'm just addressing the fact that he didn't necessarily

have to be " forced " to nurse to be doing it when he didn't want to.

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 12/12/00 10:17:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> paris_sun@h... writes:

> I've nursed four children, and it's beyond me how you

could " force " a child

> to nurse against his will. >>

> your right there is no way.Sounds to me like people just think it

is *gross*

> and since she also does family bed she MUST BE molesting her

son.LOL. That

> poor woman and boy to be put through this.

>

> sara

The strangest thing about this whole story, to me, is that they're

claiming theis woman is *sexually molesting* her son by nursing.

I am totally missing the point here, where and how does the sexuality

come in here??????????????????

Lilian

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

on another list I'm on, a poster (an MD) said in Maine sleeping with your

children makes the social services believe your children are " at risk " .

That's even babies, not just older children!

regards,

B.

Re: OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing

5-Year-Old

When did the DCFS decide on a legal age to stop sleeping with your

child? Have they been handing out extra beds and bedrooms to folks

who can't afford the extra space? Are there actually legal standards

on when to stop nursing and co-sleeping or is this up to the

discretion of the particular DCFS agent or office?

As someone on another forum pointed out, the 5 year old would say

that he didn't want to nurse- that's why he was self weaning. I

imagine that a little boy might change his mind every other day.

> Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing 5-Year-Old

>

> Associated Press

> Monday, December 11, 2000; Page A07

>

>

eGroups Sponsor

[Guest guest]

That is just silly. I have a family bed and my children are not abused or

" at risk " . When you carry a child 9 months, you know that child is there,

at least I do. My husband has never rolled over ... we are both light

sleepers though. I guess for some people this may be the case but how to

you judge who is and who isn't .... just ban it from everyone? The parent

should make this decision... no one can make it for them.

Margaret White

" &

buttle " <Vaccinationsegroups>

<dk.buttle@ntl cc:

world.com> Subject: Re: Re:

OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for

Nursing 5-Year-Old

12/13/2000

11:47 AM

Please respond

to

Vaccinations

Hi all,

on another list I'm on, a poster (an MD) said in Maine sleeping with your

children makes the social services believe your children are " at risk " .

That's even babies, not just older children!

regards,

B.

Re: OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing

5-Year-Old

When did the DCFS decide on a legal age to stop sleeping with your

child? Have they been handing out extra beds and bedrooms to folks

who can't afford the extra space? Are there actually legal standards

on when to stop nursing and co-sleeping or is this up to the

discretion of the particular DCFS agent or office?

As someone on another forum pointed out, the 5 year old would say

that he didn't want to nurse- that's why he was self weaning. I

imagine that a little boy might change his mind every other day.

> Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing 5-Year-Old

>

> Associated Press

> Monday, December 11, 2000; Page A07

>

>

eGroups Sponsor

[Guest guest]

In another article that I read on this, it mentioned that the boy had been

fine until they took him away from his mother, telling him that it was

*because* of the nursing. They made him feel very uncomfortable about it.

Kind of like " Nursing is baaaad, the consequence being not seeing your

mother again -- OK I don't want to nurse anymore, take me home to my Mommy "

sort of thing.

Of course there is a great deal that they are not printing because of

privacy in the case. There *could* be something more to it, but like most

things, they choose very carefully what they want to make statements on.

Katrina

>From: " Terry and Hagerty " <thagerty@...>

>Reply-Vaccinationsegroups

><Vaccinationsegroups>

>Subject: Re: OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing

>5-Year-Old

>Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:45:07 -0600

>

> >>I've nursed four children, and it's beyond me how you could " force " a

>child

>to nurse against his will.

>

><<

>

>I'm not saying this is what happened, but maybe the child felt guilted into

>it. Like if he didn't do it he would hurt his mom's feelings. Again I'm

>not saying this is the case in this instance, but a lot of children do

>things they don't want to do because their parents have an unnatural

>dependency on the child and the child feels it is their role to fill the

>parent's needs. I'm just addressing the fact that he didn't necessarily

>have to be " forced " to nurse to be doing it when he didn't want to.

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

In hunter gatherer (paleo) societies, the babies are nursed until at least

4 years old.

>

><< The strangest thing about this whole story, to me, is that they're

> claiming theis woman is *sexually molesting* her son by nursing.

> I am totally missing the point here, where and how does the sexuality

> come in here??????????????????

> Lilian

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing 5-Year-Old

I can see a five year old telling the babysitter that he doesn't want

to nurse anymore, because he is grown up, but doing this as a way to

express his changing feelings about growing up and not wanting to do

baby things any more, just as kids do with diapers, pacifiers, or

bottles. It doesn't mean they are forced to do that against their

will, just that they have mixed emotions.

Also, regarding the illegal family bed, my husband mentioned that

there are very old laws against bed sharing in some states. They

stem from the practice (from around the turn of the century/1900)of

people smothering infants that they couldn't afford, then blaming it

on co-sleeping. It was prevalent in lower class immigrants and such

at the time. The legistators decided to stop the practice by

outlawing co-sleeping all together. It obviously does not apply to

us today, but if the old laws are still in affect, a social worker

could use them to condemn someone.

M. in Michigan

[Guest guest]

To me these are the kinds of things that happen when a culture/society loses

respect for individuals, individual and cultural differences, and nature,

and has no sense of history or humility. It's terribly sad when the most

natural, sweet and loving thing in the world, nursing your infants and young

children is turned into something sick or wrong.

As some of you already know, I nursed my first child until he was four and

my second until his 6th birthday. I made a point of nursing them both

publicly until they were three so that it would not seem like some

mysterious, unnatural, private thing.

The ridiculous nature of this entire thing reminds me of a letter to the

editor years ago in our paper in which someone complained about a mother

nursing in a restaurant, saying she should take her baby into the bathroom

to nurse. I meant to write back, but never did, that this mother should

take her baby into the bathroom to nurse when that man ate his meals there!

While I suppose it could be true that there are parents who might abuse this

situation, any judge needs to be very careful that he/she has all the facts

straight before getting involved or making a decision. It would be like

banning all men from teaching school because a few are pedophiles.

Sandy

[Guest guest]

an interesting post I came across on another board re: this topic

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I am from Champaign where this case is and have had

foster children in my home. I had a 17yo foster daughter who was before this

judge several times. Let me tell you my experience.......with my foster

daughter neither her nor her parents wanted to be reunited in the same home.

The court and DCFS would not listen to anything that either party says. This

judge is known in the area as the terminator because that is what she likes

to do with parental rites. I know from experience that this mother could be

receiving very biased judgement. It seems to be real easy to lose your child

in that area and real difficult tio get them back. I had a group of foster

children for 3.5 years before they were returned. I am sure there may have

been more going on but the comments they made in the article seem to be

lacking of convincing evidence to me to warrant removal of a child. I got out

of foster care in that area because I could not work with a judicial system

that deliberately destroyed children's lives. Just my opinion and experience.

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more.

I nursed my now six year old up to the birth of her twin brother and sister.

I would have gone beyond that but at the sight of the amount of milk that I

had she told me that she would stop for now and resume nursing once the

babies were finished.

At that time she was almost four. The twins are now almost three and there

is no end in sight.

Especially the girl loves it and I enjoy the closeness most of the time too.

We don't do it anywhere in public, only in the privacy of our home and I

sometimes tell them no but I think that as long as we three feel that it is

the right thing to do we can go on like this.

It is a great way of bonding and sharing love. They feel completely at home

when they nurse.

I don't know about this family in Illinois, maybe there was more to it,

maybe not.

But whatever it is they are damaging that poor child now, that much is for

sure.

He may have just told them that he does not want to nurse anymore because he

saw the disgust in their faces.

And about co-sleeping how dare they say that it is harmful to a child?

There are countries out there where children always sleep with their

parents, right up to the time when they leave their parents to go to the

university or to marry.

These are healthy caring children.

And what do we have in our society where children have to sleep all alone in

their cribs from day one?

Communication is frequently extremely disturbed between the parents and

their children.

I know every family has to find their own way of parenting and co-sleeping

or nursing for years on end is not acceptable for many. But the main thing

is tolerance and acceptance of those that have a different approach.

Just my thoughts.

a.

Re: OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing

> >5-Year-Old

> >Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:45:07 -0600

> >

> > >>I've nursed four children, and it's beyond me how you could " force " a

> >child

> >to nurse against his will.

> >

> ><<

> >

> >I'm not saying this is what happened, but maybe the child felt guilted

into

> >it. Like if he didn't do it he would hurt his mom's feelings. Again I'm

> >not saying this is the case in this instance, but a lot of children do

> >things they don't want to do because their parents have an unnatural

> >dependency on the child and the child feels it is their role to fill the

> >parent's needs. I'm just addressing the fact that he didn't necessarily

> >have to be " forced " to nurse to be doing it when he didn't want to.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

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>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

One more note about this article...

The reporter noted that the estranged father had just recently started

seeing the child. Makes you wonder if his hand was in there somewhere.

Katrina

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[Guest guest]

More like this child was made to feel ashamed for doing something natural,

at an age when children still breasfeed, just because other people didn't

approve. I nurse my 20 month old son, and I too cannot understand how you

could force a child to nurse. This is a ridiculous case...hopeful the judge

will see that...Sharon

Re: OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing

5-Year-Old

> I've nursed four children, and it's beyond me how you could " force " a

child

> to nurse against his will.

>

>

>

>

> >

> >Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing 5-Year-Old

> >

> > Associated Press

> >Monday, December 11, 2000; Page A07

> >

> >

> >

> >CHICAGO, Dec. 10 â? " â? " A judge will hold a hearing Monday on a

6-year-old

> >boy

> >who was removed from his mother's custody because she was still

> >breast-feeding him when he was 5, allegedly against his wishes.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

>>I don't know about this family in Illinois, maybe there was more to it,

maybe not. But whatever it is they are damaging that poor child now, that

much is for

sure.<<

ITA! Even *if* the child did not want to nurse and even *if* the mother did

sleep naked with him that doesn't warrant him being ripped away from his

mother like that. In an article posted previously on the matter it said:

*********************************

A report by Champaign forensic psychologist Dr. Marty Traver,who

evaluated the boy upon referral from Judge Einhorn, described an alert,

relaxed child who expressed ambivalence about nursing.

" It is clear that [the boy] has suffered some emotional problems as a

result of his extended nursing, " Traver wrote. " Those problems however

do not appear to rise to the level of abuse unless there is evidence that

[the boy's] mother nursed him for her own gratification. "

" The primary detriment from extended nursing in this case, was that [the

boy] was ashamed of doing so and did not feel socially appropriate in

doing so, " Traver's report states.

******************************

So it doesn't sound like the boy was in danger staying with his mom and they

did a good deal of harm by taking him away from her.

[Guest guest]

I think this feeling for alot of women is very common. I have several

friends who are very uncomfortable with the fact that I still breasfeed at

20 months. We are very conditioned as a society to view the breasts as a

sexual object and not the way nature intended them. I'm sure the formula

companies are thrilled with this perception. My one girlfriend even came out

to the car one day as I was leaving her house, and told me that although

she thought it was gross, she was also sure I was doing what " was

right " ...talk about confusion (on her part)...Sharon

Re: Re: OT: Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing

5-Year-Old

> In a message dated 12/13/00 7:46:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> lholm2@... writes:

>

> << The strangest thing about this whole story, to me, is that they're

> claiming theis woman is *sexually molesting* her son by nursing.

> I am totally missing the point here, where and how does the sexuality

> come in here??????????????????

> Lilian

>

> >>

>

> I think many women (and men) are made to believe that a woman's breasts

are

> for sexual pleasure and not necessarily just for breastfeeding. I'm not

sure

> where this manipulation came into play but when I was pregnant, I was

> surrounded by breastfeeding advocates including the doctors, nurses and

> nutritionists. I didn't breastfeed, however, but I did express and put

into

> bottles because I didn't feel comfortable breastfeeding, maybe because of

the

> above.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The papers here in greater Chicago said the woman was sleeping naked

with her son. I absolutely agree that nursing a 6 year old is okay.

I think this other fact is an important element in the case.

> > Illinois Woman Faces Hearing for Nursing 5-Year-Old

> >

> > Associated Press

> > Monday, December 11, 2000; Page A07

> >

> >

>

>

>

> eGroups Sponsor

[Guest guest]

>From: " & buttle " <dk.buttle@...>

>Hi all,

>on another list I'm on, a poster (an MD) said in Maine sleeping with your

>children makes the social services believe your children are " at risk " .

>That's even babies, not just older children!

I would think my child would be more " at-risk " if I were sleep-deprived and

my serotonin levels were screwy than he is by sleeping in my bed.

I hate stupid people.

-s.

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