Re: Re: Welcome to Vaccinations - Introduction

[Guest guest]

Welcome, . There are many reasons not to vaccinate...but only you and

your wife can make that choice. But, ask your wife if she is prepared to

have someone inject her daughter with thimerosal (mercury) and formaldehyde.

Sherri sent out an e-mail with the vaccine ingredients in it...maybe that was

before you joined. I'll send it to you, off-list.

Jo

[Guest guest]

,

Hi, I am new to this group too,a,I have a 2 1/2 year old damaged by Hep B

and Dtap.

If this happened to your first child ,it could happen again!

I go to the doctors on Friday for my daughters 2 month checkup and I could

not

live with my self if I gave in to the doctors and vaccinated na I love

her too much,

to let them make that decision!My husband and I decided we will wait til she

is two and

there are patches they put on the arm to see if there is a reaction and I

also would check lot numbers to make extra sure .

This gives us two years to wait and see if we want to vaccinate or not!

I breast feed and thats all she needs!

I am so sorry to hear about your child,This would give your wife more time to

research!

I called Vaers to ask about my daughters lot numbers and found out on

11/10/97 the hep B there was a tremendous amount of reactions as well as

deaths !

This sure made me angry when I found this out ,using are children as guinea

pigs is not my style!

I talk long I know, I have alot to say and I care about all these children so

much!

a

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/22/00 11:58:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

doshiwoo297@... writes:

<< I go to the doctors on Friday for my daughters 2 month checkup and I could

not

live with my self if I gave in to the doctors and vaccinated na I love

her too much,

to let them make that decision! >>

a -

I, too, have a a. My baby is over 2 months and unvaxed. I am not

waiting for anything...she will NEVER be vaxed. There is too much crap in

vaccines. I don't care if it's to suppress the virus or preserve it or

whatever...not in my baby!

Jo

[Guest guest]

Margot, thanks !I did not know that!What do you tell the doctors?

tough is going through this!

a

[Guest guest]

Sheri Thanks

I was wondering did you ever tell a pediatrician no vaccines in that period

of time you

worked there,You might as well tell them no they cannot be a pediatrician.I

am not be condesending I hope.I am just scared that they will ban my children

if I come across wrong,but I should not be!

a

[Guest guest]

Thanks again Margot. Can I claim a medical waiver because the doctor already

admitted

Dtap allergy?wondering if any one knows! This all is overwhelming,sometimes.

We have extensive allergies on both side.They say children predisposed to

allergies

should wait or never have vaccines!Wondering if any body else has a Dtap

damaged child in Washington from 1997?We have good attneys in Boston,MA

Conway,Crowley and Homer were using for her case.Has anybody else used them?

a

[Guest guest]

Welcome ! I am sorry to hear about your son . My daughter

suffered a serious reaction to Hep B which she received at 16 hours

old. There is a woman named Dawn Winkler who lost a child to SIDS. She

has done an incredible amount of research into vaccines/SIDS. She tried

to contact some of the SIDS groups to do some research and was told they

would not participate. I think it is a shame because there is without a

doubt some portion of SIDS cases that are serious reactions to vaccines,

especially the ones that follow recent vaccination. I have attended 5

congressional hearings on vaccines and can assure that what is being

reported in the media is severely lacking or misreported compared to

what is actually occuring in the hearings. I can provide you with

copies of my last couple newsletters. Most I can send via email, a

couple are available only via snail mail. Without a doubt I would

encourage you to hold off until you feel comfortable with your

decision. Did get the Hep B vaccine? Sometimes children get

vaccines get them in the hospital and sometimes at their first

appointment. The Belkins lost their daughter due to Hep B...he is a

statistician who now head up the NVIC site on Hep B. I would really

encourage you to learn about vaccine policy. An excellent mainstream

article is from Money magazine, Dec. 1996 entitled the " Lethal Dangers

of the Bilion Dollar vAccine Business " . You are in excellent company to

do your research. This is a great group of folks and not only do we

share our experiences but we also share a lot of medical information

(journal articles, hearing information, ACIP meeting, etc.) If you want

Dawn's info. let me know. I know she is VERY well informed because she

did not want to loose any more children to SIDS.

in CT

KsII@... wrote:

>

> Hi, my name is . I am 31 and my wife and I just had our 2nd child.

> Our first child, , died of SIDS when he was a little over a 2 weeks

> old. We will never allow Giselle to sleep by herself. We are struggling

> with the decision of vaccinating or not vaccinating. I was wondering if

> anyone could give me any information or links to information. We know that

> this is a big decision, we don't want to go into it lightly.

>

> My wife is very pro-vaccine, at the moment, but is willing to hear my side.

> I don't want to do anything to lose another child. I have looked at a couple

> websites...but she says that anyone can write anything on a website. I hate

> to admit it, but she's right. Anyhoo. I'd love any information you can give

> me to sway my wife. I've tried to read the archives for this list...but

> there are too many and I don't have much free time.

>

> Thank you.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,

> contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest

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--

@...

***************************************************************

Any information obtained here is not to be construed as medical

OR legal advice. The decision to vaccinate and how you

implement that decision is yours and yours alone.

[Guest guest]

Sheri,

I hope to learn alot ,you cannot learn enough when it comes down to your

children!

How long does it take for vaers to make a decision on average?

a

[Guest guest]

To everyone I am new But I have dedicated a site to my daughter Brittany.

If anyone wants to look or sign her guest book it is at :

www.special1.freeservers.com

Thanks a

Do you have reunions?

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:16:57 EDT, you wrote:

>Hi, my name is . I am 31 and my wife and I just had our 2nd child.

>Our first child, , died of SIDS when he was a little over a 2 weeks

>old. We will never allow Giselle to sleep by herself. We are struggling

>with the decision of vaccinating or not vaccinating. I was wondering if

>anyone could give me any information or links to information. We know that

>this is a big decision, we don't want to go into it lightly.

>

>My wife is very pro-vaccine, at the moment, but is willing to hear my side.

>I don't want to do anything to lose another child. I have looked at a couple

>websites...but she says that anyone can write anything on a website. I hate

>to admit it, but she's right. Anyhoo. I'd love any information you can give

>me to sway my wife. I've tried to read the archives for this list...but

>there are too many and I don't have much free time.

>

>Thank you.

>

>

Here it is:

*********Begin Cut/Copy/Paste***************

Go to Host Home Page

Go to Center for Empirical Medicine Home Page

SIDS and Seizures

by L. Coulter, PhD

" Crib death " was so infrequent in the pre-vaccination era that it was not

even mentioned in the statistics, but it started to climb in

the 1950s with the spread of mass vaccination against diseases of

childhood. It became a matter of public and professional

concern and even acquired a new name, " sudden infant death of unknown

origin,. " or, for short, SIDS. This name is significant,

in the light of subsequent controversies, since " of unknown origin " means

exactly that. So, when the medical establishment

assures us that SIDS is unrelated to vaccinations, the obvious response

is, How do you know?, if it is defined as " of unknown

origin " ? At this (as with most common-sense questions about vaccinations)

the medical establishment prefers to retire from the

debate in dignified silence.

So we have witnessed a steady rise in the incidence of SIDS, closely

following the growth in childhood vaccinations. But

information on the progress of this epidemic has been radically suppressed

in the official literature. Whereas in earlier decades -

up to the end of the 1950s - the medical establishment could recognize the

fact of death after vaccination, more recently, as the

official position has hardened, the earlier concessions have been

withdrawn, and vaccinations of all kinds are now declared

absolutely safe at all times and in all places. This has required some

fancy footwork with the epidemiologic statistics, as we will

see below. And since no physician or scientist with a normal IQ could

really believe this " epidemiology, " one is forced to

conclude that the medical establishment, in its wisdom, has decided that

7000-8000 cases of crib death every year are a

reasonable price to pay for a nice steady flow of vaccines with all their

concomitant benefits for the public health (except, of

course, for these same 7000-8000 babies each year who have already enjoyed

all the possible advantages of childhood

vaccines).

After all, they say to themselves, you can't make an omelette without

breaking eggs. But the eggs being broken are small,

helpless, and innocent babies, while the omelette is being enjoyed by the

pediatricians and vaccine manufacturers. Death after

whooping-cough vaccination was first described by a Danish physician in

1933. Two Americans in 1946 described the deaths

of identical twins within 24 hours of a DPT shot (on the background and

history of SIDS see H. Coulter and B. Fisher, DPT: A

Shot in the Dark). E. M. and J. L. Emery in 1982 wrote: " we cannot

exclude the possibility of recent immunisation

being one of several contributory factors in an occasional unexpected

infant death. " But the early 1980s were a turning-point in

the official line. In that same year of 1982 matters came to a crisis when

C. Torch, M.D., Director of Child Neurology,

Department of Pediatrics, University of Nevada School of Medicine, at the

34th Annual Meeting of the American Academy of

Pediatrics, presented a study linking the DPT shot with SIDS. Torch

concluded: " These data show that DPT vaccination may

be a generally unrecognized major cause of sudden infant and early

childhood death, and that the risks of immunization may

outweigh its potential benefits. A need for reevaluation and possible

modification of current vaccination procedures is indicated

by this study. "

Torch's report provoked an uproar in the American Academy of Pediatrics.

At a hastily arranged press conference he was

soundly chastised for using " anecdotal data, " meaning (will you believe

it?) that he actually interviewed the families concerned!

This mistake was not made again. Gerald M. Fenichel, MD, chairman of the

Department of Neurology at Vanderbilt University

Medical Center, in 1983 published an article on vaccinations entitled " the

danger of case reports, " and the pro-vaccination

literature produced in profusion in later years and decades has generally

steered away from and around any such thing as a

" case report. " These researchers will examine with minute precision

hospital card files, medicare cover sheets, even physicians'

records, but God preserve us from contact with the children themselves or

their families! Another sign of the hardening official

position was a two-part article by , M.D., in a 1982 issue

of the New England Journal of Medicine.

was Director of the Pediatric Pulmonary Unit at the Massachusetts General

Hospital and a " principal investigator " of SIDS.

His article on the causes of SIDS (financed by the U.S. Public Health

Service) never mentioned vaccination even though, at a

1979 FDA meeting on " The Relation between DPT Vaccines and Sudden Infant

Death Syndrome, " had described

200 infants with severe breathing difficulties after a DPT shot, such that

they required resuscitation. In 1979 he had said: " We

do have all this data. It is all recorded on tabular sheets, and we have

it on nearly 200 infants that we have evaluated this way. It

is in a capacity that it can be pulled, " but in 1982 he preferred not to

" pull " this information after all. When Barbara Fisher and I

queried him on this in a 1982 letter, he replied: " I did not mention DPT

shots in my review article on SIDS in the New England

Journal of Medicine because there are no data collected in a scientific

way [no anecdotal data, if you please!] that support an

association. This includes Dr. Torch's report. "

So the cat was let out of the bag by Dr. Torch, who has been effectively

silenced by his colleagues since that memorable date.

In his editorial attacking " case reports " as a basis for evaluating

vaccine damage, Gerald Fenichel alluded to an ongoing study by

the NIH on " risk factors " in sudden infant death syndrome which, Fenichel

asserted, " excluded DPT as a causal factor in sudden

infant death syndrome. " Let us take a look at this study, published some

years later as " Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis

Immunization and Sudden Infant Death: Results of the National Institute of

Child Health and Human Development ative

Epidemiological Study of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome Risk Factors, "

coauthored by: J. Hoffman, Jehu Hunter,

Karla Damus, Pakter, R. , Gerald van Belle, and Eileen

G. Hasselmeyer (Pediatrics 79:4 [April, 1987],

598-611.

This " retrospective case-controlled study " involved finding 838 children

whose deaths had been classified as SIDS by the

attending physician and/or the coroner and comparing them with 1514

" controls. " The 800 " cases " were selected from among

all children who died with a diagnosis of SIDS between October, 1978, and

December, 1979, at or near certain designated

centers. Excluded from the group were: (1) those on whom an autopsy was

not performed or was performed with deviations

from the standard protocol, (2) Those younger than 14 days or older than

24 months, (3) those who died after more than 24

hours in a hospital, and (4) those for whom the parents refused permission

to perform an autopsy. The selection was made by a

panel or panels of pathologists who examined the records of the children's

deaths and autopsies and who decided whether or

not the child had really died of SIDS or from some other cause.

There are two major objections to this procedure. The first is that the

" case " group contained some children who were

vaccinated and some who were not. The second is that we are not given the

criteria by which the panel of pathologists decided

whether or not to include a child as one of the " cases. " On the first

objection, the investigators are searching for a tie with

vaccination in a group of 800+ infants, some vaccinated and others not.

This is contrary to common sense. Why water down

the sample with babies who were never vaccinated? At this point the whole

methodology for determining whether a previous

vaccination may or may not have contributed to the SIDS death in question

rapidly becomes incoherent. This leads to objection

#2, which is that we are not given the criteria according to which

children were accepted as " cases " by the panel of pathologists,

and we cannot judge whether or not this was done correctly.

A typical SIDS post-vaccination case would be the baby with a slight

bacterial or viral infection who is vaccinated and then dies

of the infection. These cases are invariably classified by attending

physicians and coroners as " death from an infection " without

taking into account the fact that vaccinations are known to lower

resistance momentarily (for a day or two). In this state of

lowered immunity the baby might well die from the infection which would

otherwise have been innocuous. So such a case would

not even be classified as SIDS (since the infectious " cause " is known),

and certainly not as " SIDS after a vaccination, " even

though the baby would not have died in the absence of a vaccination. How

many such cases were rejected by the " panel of

pathologists " ? We are not told.

The combination of (1) mixing vaccinated and unvaccinated babies with (2)

failure to provide the criteria for acceptance into the

" case " group taints this same " case " group irredeemably and, in itself,

should prevent any further consideration of this study. The

next step in the investigation was to select two live " controls " for each

" case. " Control A was " matched " for age with the

corresponding " case, " meaning that he or she was born as close as possible

to the same day. Control B was " matched " not only

for date of birth but also for birth weight and race. Again, as with the

" cases, " these " controls " were mixed with respect to

vaccination status, some yes and some no. The obvious criticism here is

that date of birth is simply not relevant to whether or

not a baby is vulnerable to the effects of a vaccine (unless the selection

is being made on astrological grounds!). Birth weight and

race are slightly more relevant, since children of low birthweight and

black children (who are more often of low birthweight than

white children) are more likely to be affected adversely by vaccination.

However, sex was not included as a criterion, even though males die of

SIDS, and are adversely affected by vaccinations, five

times more frequently than females. This was a peculiar oversight. The

only comment to be made about this " control " group is

that it was selected on entirely incomprehensible grounds. It stands to

reason that, when one group is being compared with

another group, the two groups must be " matched " with respect to the

variable being studied. In this case the variable being

studied is " tendency to die after receiving a vaccination. " Date of birth

has nothing at all to do with this variable, whereas weight

and race are only marginally related to it. Sex of the baby, which is

related, was not included in the analysis.

Even though these two groups are not comparable, Drs. Hoffman et al.

compared them anyway, finding that " only " 39.8% of

the " cases " had received at least one DPT shot, while 55% of Control A

infants and 53.2% of Control B infants had received at

least one DPT shot. Since fewer " cases " than " controls " had received the

shot, the authors concluded that " DTP immunization is

not a significant [what do they mean by " significant? " ] factor in the

occurrence of SIDS. " This sort of attempted comparison can

only be described as a shambles, a grotesque imitation of scientific

method designed to fool the public (and the journalists who

are supposed to be monitoring precisely this sort of intellectual

dishonesty). It would have made as much sense to interview the

first 1600 people they could pick up in the Greyhound Bus Station and ask

them about their vaccination status.

But this article had its effect. Dr. Torch was effectively silenced, and

for years this pseudo-science has been cited as one of the

medical establishment's principal weapons in its drive to extend childhood

vaccination programs. How do you react when your

own government lies to you systematically about life-and-death questions?

As I have noted earlier, the answer is political action

in the state legislatures, and one weapon in the hands of the public is an

understanding of the pseudo-science and

pseudo-epidemiology represented by articles like this one.

Another article on the SIDS-vaccination relationship, fortunately of far

superior quality, is Larry J. Baraff, J. Ablon, and

C. Weiss, " Possible Temporal Association Between Diphtheria-Tetanus

Toxoid-Pertussis Vaccination and Sudden

Infant Death Syndrome. " (Pediatric Infectious Diseases 2:1 [January,

1983], 7-11). The authors adopted a simpler, intuitively

obvious method of investigation and concluded that there is, indeed, a

" temporal association " between the DPT shot and sudden

infant death. They found that 382 cases of SIDS were recorded in Los

Angeles County between January 1, 1979, and August

23, 1980, and they simply interviewed the parents of 145 of these cases,

either in person or by telephone. They asked: 1) the

baby's sex, 2) the age at death, 3) the last visit to a physician or nurse

prior to death, 4) the date of the last vaccination, 5) the

name and telephone number of the physician or nurse, and 6) the type of

immunization given.

They found a statistically significant excess of deaths in the first day

and the first week after vaccination, i.e., a " temporal

association. " They rejected the use of a " control group, " and instead

relied on the intuitively obvious assumption that " there

should be no temporal association between DPT immunization and SIDS were

there no causal relationship between these two

events. " I have not found any criticism of this article for relying on

" anecdotal evidence. " This study was not financed by the US

Government but apparently by the UCLA School of Medicine and the Los

Angeles County Department of Health Services.

Another respectable study of the SIDS-vaccination connection is

" Diptheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Immunization and Sudden Infant

Death Syndrome " by M. , Hershel Jick, R. Perera,

S. , and A. Knauss,

published in the American Journal of Public Health 77:8 [August, 1987],

945-951.

This study supports a link between the DPT shot and " sudden infant death

syndrome. " The authors examined the records of all

children born in the Group Health ative of Puget Sound between 1972

and 1983 to see how many had died of SIDS.

Total births recorded during this period were 35,581, but of them only

26,500 were eligible for the study. Not all deaths of

infants during this period were considered to be SIDS. " All deaths which

on the basis of death certificate diagnosis, hospital

discharge data, and pharmacy use taken together could be clearly ascribed

to causes not related to immunization were

excluded. " Ultimately, " SIDS was defined as any death for which no cause

could be discerned among infants of normal

birthweight and without predisposing medical conditions. " But, despite

these exclusions and restrictions, the authors found " the

SIDS mortality rate in the period 0-3 days following a DPT shot to be 7.3

times that in the period beginning 30 days after

immunization. " They called the results of this study " worrisome " but

consoled themselves with the thought that " only a small

proportion of SIDS cases in infants with birthweights greater than 2500

grams could be associated with DPT. " A particular

criticism to be made of this study is that children with " predisposing

medical conditions " were excluded and their deaths were

not considered to be SIDS, whereas in actuality children with

" predisposing medical conditions " are routinely vaccinated.

Another study by the same group, of " neurologic events " following

vaccination, is slightly more ambiguous than the preceding

one but nonetheless raises a red flag about vaccines. M. ,

Hershel Jick, R. Perera, A. Knauss,

and S. . " Neurologic Events Following

Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Immunization. " (Pediatrics 81:3 [March,

1988], 345-349) was an investigation of the same 35,581 children, born

between 1972 and 1983, as in the previous study. The

attempt was made to identify " new neurologic conditions " in this group,

not by interviewing the families, as might have been

expected, but by examining hospitalization records and prescription

records for the drugs typically used to treat seizures. Since

the pharmacy was " on line " only on July 1, 1976, any drug purchases made

prior to that date by families who left the Group

Health ative before July 1, 1976, would have been missed, as well as

" any child neither hospitalized not treated with

drug therapy. "

Also excluded from the study were children with " uncomplicated first

febrile seizures, " because these " are not likely to have

been hospitalized or treated with drugs. " Also excluded from the study

were children whose first seizure occurred prior to 30

days of age - presumably because no vaccinations were given in the first

30 days of life (although this is not stated). Also

excluded from the study were children in the category " seizure with

possible predisposing cause, " such as " trauma, asphyxia,

congenital malformation, disorders of metabolism, birth weight less than

2500g, central nervous system infection, and neonatal

sepsis. " Also excluded were children for whom it was not possible to

identify from the available records a clear date of onset of

illness.

Ultimately, the group was reduced by 25% - to 26,600. Of course, when

studies such as this exclude whole categories of

children - presumably those who are particularly vulnerable to vaccine

damage - the question immediately arises whether the

study is truly a representative sample, since in the " real world " all of

the above excluded categories are routinely vaccinated.

And if the sample is not " representative, " the study itself has no

predictive value. The authors found 239 seizures without an

apparent predisposing cause among the children in the target population.

One case, in particular, is worth describing: " The single

seizure that occurred within three days of a DPT was in an 11-month old

white girl who suffered a 2 ½ hour generalized

tonic-clonic seizure on the evening of her third DPT-oral poliovirus

vaccination. Her temperature during the seizure was 39

degrees C. (102.2 degrees F.). Results of CSF studies were normal. There

was a transient left hemiparesis and right sixth nerve

paresis. She was treated with phenobarbitol. At 6 years of age, while

still taking phenobarbitol, she was experiencing rare focal

left-sided seizures in the absence of fever and continued to have abnormal

EEG tracings. " However, this and the other 238

cases were explained away by the authors as part of the " expected

incidence " of seizures in this population, a " background "

incidence, as it were.

If a " background incidence " is stipulated, one would assume that it had

been ascertained in a non-vaccinated population.

Instead, somewhat surprisingly, the " background incidence " is defined as

the incidence in the vaccinated population later than 30

days after a vaccination. The assumption seems to be that any seizure

provoked by a vaccination will necessarily occur within

the first 30 days after a vaccination; those occurring later than 30 days

post-vaccination are thought to be God-given, a part of

Nature, as it were. However, there is no evidence for this. No study of

natural seizure incidence, or natural crib-death

incidence, in an unvaccinated group of Americans has ever been performed,

as far can be determined. Mass vaccination began

in the late 1940s, and the medical establishment became concerned about

vaccine damage only in the 1970s. Thus they were

vaccinating children for over thirty years before they got interested in

statistical comparisons; today it is difficult or impossible to

locate a group of unvaccinated children sufficiently large to have any

statistical value.

Also there seems to be the feeling that not vaccinating a child is

" unethical, " and that medical research should not venture into

" unethical " areas. If that is how they feel, well and good, but they then

should not discourse glibly about the " background

incidence " of this or that disease or neurologic condition. These sorts of

unfounded assertions about the " natural " or

" background " incidence of seizures or other kinds of vaccine reactions

bedevil nearly every study of this subject. Another trick

used by the medical establishment to manipulate public opinion is to cite

some study as supporting its arguments when, in

actuality, the study came up with contrary conclusions. Sometimes one

finds a conflict within the article itself - for instance, the

summary or the abstract will make claims which are not supported in the

body of the article. Both of these criticisms can be

levelled at: W. Shields, Claus Nielsen, Dorte Buch, Vibeke

sen, Christenson, Bengt Zachau-Christiansen,

and D. Cherry. " Relationship of Pertussis Immunization to the Onset

of Neurologic Disorders: a Retrospective

Epidemiologic Study. " J. Pediatrics 1988; 113, 801-805.

This, conducted in Denmark, was of two groups of children who received

pertussis and other immunizations at different ages, to

see if this affected the dates of onset of neurological conditions. Before

April, 1970, Danish children got the DPT shot (together

with the Salk polio vaccine) at 5, 6, 7, and 15 months of age. After this

date children received the monovalent pertussis vaccine

at 5 weeks, 9 weeks, and 10 months of age, and the diphtheria, tetanus,

and Salk polio vaccines at 5 months, 6 months, and 15

months. At the time of the change the potency of the pertussis vaccine was

reduced by 20%, and the aluminum adjuvant (a

frequent cause of reactions) was removed.

This study compared 82,518 births in the 1967-1968 period with 73,390 in

the 1972-1973 period. Records of all hospital

admissions for seizure disorders and related conditions were examined and

" patients whose cases were appropriate for the

study were entered into the computer data base. " This is the first

criticism to be made: the authors do not give further

information on the criteria of inclusion. The authors found that the

incidence of neurological diseases increased with the new

vaccine schedule: epilepsy went from 0.35% (286 cases) to 0.37% (268

cases); febrile convulsions went from 1.01% (830

cases) to 1.87% (1369 cases), and central nervous system infections rose

from 0.16% (136 cases) to 0.29% (214 cases).

This could not have been a very welcome finding, and it had to be

explained away somehow. Take CNS infections, which

almost doubled. The authors write: " there was no relationship between the

time of the scheduled administration of pertussis

vaccine " and these infections, whereas the accompanying table shows that

there was a relationship. They then state that it

" appeared to represent a change in the referral pattern " but gave no

further details. Furthermore, in the " Discussion " section at

the end, the authors went from " appeared to represent " to " was due to " :

" for CNS infections the change in rate was due to a

change in referral patterns. " This appears to be simple prevarication. The

same occurred with respect to epilepsy. The authors

write: " there was no relationship between the age of onset of epilepsy and

the scheduled age of administration of pertussis

vaccine, " whereas the table on the very same page shows that there was

such a relationship.

With respect to febrile seizures, they admitted a statistical correlation

between the occurrence of first febrile seizures and the

scheduled date of pertussis vaccination (p = 0.004). This occurred at the

time of the third shot in the 1967-1968 cohort and the

fourth shot in the 1972-1973 cohort. They note: " Thus at each period after

the usual age of onset of febrile seizures, there was a

significant increase in the incidence of febrile seizures in the group

receiving pertussis immunization ... 5.9% of all children who

developed a first febrile seizure between 28 days and 24 months of age had

it as a consequence of fever caused by pertussis

immunization. " Then they soften the impact of this finding by claiming:

" the majority of convulsions that occur within a few days

of pertussis immunization are febrile seizures and therefore are only

rarely associated with long-term seizure disorders. " What

does " only rarely " mean? This study has, of course, been cited numerous

times in the subsequent literature in support of the total

innocuousness of the pertussis vaccine.

Return to the Top

Copyright 1996 by L. Coulter, Center For Empirical Medicine, 4221

45th Street NW, Washington, DC 20016, United

States. Phone: 1-202-364-0898. Fax: 1-202-362-3407. Email:

hlcoulter@.... URL:

http://home.earthlink.net/~emptherapies

Reproduction and dissemination of this article is encouraged but written

permission is required.

[Guest guest]

At 10:16 PM 06/22/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>Hi, my name is . I am 31 and my wife and I just had our 2nd child.

>Our first child, , died of SIDS when he was a little over a 2 weeks

>old. We will never allow Giselle to sleep by herself. We are struggling

>with the decision of vaccinating or not vaccinating. I was wondering if

>anyone could give me any information or links to information. We know that

>this is a big decision, we don't want to go into it lightly.

>

>My wife is very pro-vaccine, at the moment, but is willing to hear my side.

>I don't want to do anything to lose another child. I have looked at a

couple

>websites...but she says that anyone can write anything on a website. I hate

>to admit it, but she's right. Anyhoo. I'd love any information you can

give

>me to sway my wife. I've tried to read the archives for this list...but

>there are too many and I don't have much free time.

>

>Thank you.

>

>

Welcome and so sorry to hear about ! Did have a

hepatitis B vaccine at birth? As you know SIDS was very rare at 2 weeks of

age before they started this vaccine.

I will send you a bunch of articles and you can also talk to some others

who have lost babies on this list. I will also forward Belkin's

terrible story. They may be hard for you to read, but very necessary.

Yes, anyone can write anything on a website, but also the drug companies

can say anything they want too.

We don't want you to lose another child either and also want to be sure you

have enough information to make a decision.

Welcome,

Sheri

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,

>contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest

>price. New FREE service!

>1/5746/10/_/489317/_/961726627/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS

MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO

VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

Bookstore - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/bookstor.htm

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

KVMR Broadcaster/Programmer/Investigative Reporter, Nevada City CA

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

Hi a-

I'm so sorry about your baby who was vaccine injured! Just my two cents here: I don't do well baby checks because I don't believe children need to be seen unless an illness is suspected (and even then -- questionable). All that is done in one of those visits, is to weigh and measure, ask questions and VACCINATE (not to mention make you feel stupid for questioning the protocol if you so choose)! I have four children, the oldest of which is 16, and started boycotting the recommended check-up's early on when I figured out they were only desiring financial gain, and didn't care for my children like I "expected". If everyone only took their children to a physician when they were ill, all pediatricians practices would suffer greatly!!! "Well baby" checks are a scam! Is it that important to know how the child growth compares statistically? What possible positive outcome could one come home with after one of the scheduled "checks"? Samples of pharmaceuticals and a child who's healthy future is uncertain?....

Sorry if my tone may be construed as harsh, but the "medical community" is not to be trusted that way..... you are on the right track in your questioning approach! Always quesion "authority", and keep those baby's safe!

Margot (new here too!)

- Original Message -----

From: doshiwoo297@...

Vaccinationsegroups

Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 8:57 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Welcome to Vaccinations - Introduction

,Hi, I am new to this group too,a,I have a 2 1/2 year old damaged by Hep B and Dtap.If this happened to your first child ,it could happen again!I go to the doctors on Friday for my daughters 2 month checkup and I could not live with my self if I gave in to the doctors and vaccinated na I love her too much,to let them make that decision!My husband and I decided we will wait til she is two and there are patches they put on the arm to see if there is a reaction and I also would check lot numbers to make extra sure .This gives us two years to wait and see if we want to vaccinate or not!I breast feed and thats all she needs!I am so sorry to hear about your child,This would give your wife more time to research!I called Vaers to ask about my daughters lot numbers and found out on 11/10/97 the hep B there was a tremendous amount of reactions as well as deaths !This sure made me angry when I found this out ,using are children as guinea pigs is not my style!I talk long I know, I have alot to say and I care about all these children so much!a

[Guest guest]

At 11:57 PM 06/22/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>,

>Hi, I am new to this group too,a,I have a 2 1/2 year old damaged by

Hep B

>and Dtap.

>If this happened to your first child ,it could happen again!

>I go to the doctors on Friday for my daughters 2 month checkup and I could

>not

>live with my self if I gave in to the doctors and vaccinated na I love

>her too much,

>to let them make that decision!My husband and I decided we will wait til she

>is two and

> there are patches they put on the arm to see if there is a reaction and I

>also would check lot numbers to make extra sure .

>This gives us two years to wait and see if we want to vaccinate or not!

>I breast feed and thats all she needs!

>I am so sorry to hear about your child,This would give your wife more time

to

>research!

>I called Vaers to ask about my daughters lot numbers and found out on

>11/10/97 the hep B there was a tremendous amount of reactions as well as

>deaths !

>This sure made me angry when I found this out ,using are children as guinea

>pigs is not my style!

>I talk long I know, I have alot to say and I care about all these children

so

>much!

>a

>

>------------------------------

Welcome a too! I am so sorry to hear about your child. This is a

common theme these days and even more so since Hep B came in. I'm not sure

that there is ANY safe lot number for that horrific substance. You'll

learn a lot in the next 2 years. YOur breastfeeding should certainly help.

Never heard about this patch thing - I'd be wary - doubt that that can

tell you much of anything. Very different injecting into your muscle and

tissue and consequently right into your blood stream.

Ask lots of questions, here. If you want any specific articles on any

particular vaccines or general vaccine danger info, just let me know - I

have thousands and the rest of this people on this list have their

thousands. Its a pretty informed bunch here.

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS

MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO

VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

Bookstore - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/bookstor.htm

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

KVMR Broadcaster/Programmer/Investigative Reporter, Nevada City CA

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

At 12:45 AM 06/23/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>Margot, thanks !I did not know that!What do you tell the doctors?

>tough is going through this!

>a

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Shop at gazoontite.com & breathe happier and healthier! Click here!

>1/5491/10/_/489317/_/961735544/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

You just say I'm continuing to research this and then never go back unless

your child is ill.

You can say NO, but you'll just get grief usually. Or try it once, going

in and saying no, and see what happens but be VERY VERY STRONG. You may be

surprised and they won't hassle you. If they do start looking for someone

who wont' lots of resources on this list for docs in all sorts of areas. I

agree about the well baby visits - I worked for pediatricians for 3.5 years

in an office.

Just my opinion.

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS

MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO

VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

Bookstore - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/bookstor.htm

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

KVMR Broadcaster/Programmer/Investigative Reporter, Nevada City CA

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

a-

I don't tell them anything, because I only take my children to the doctor if I suspect a strep infection (my family has is predisposed to rheumatic disease and a variety of autoimmune disorders related to it... though so far not me or my children) or some skin thing that doesn't look familiar to me. Vaccinations are never mentioned at those kinds of visits. We've changed insurance companies many times, and records are rarely transferred unless there is a "medical history" of interest. If I'm asked whether the kids are up to date, with a new physician, my standard answer is "Yes, they don't need any vaccinations at this time"... which isn't telling a lie exactly because my children are "up to date" according to MY vaxing schedule!! ;D I don't see any point in opening the debate when I know my pleas for understanding would be met by deaf ears. While on their turf, my only interest is my children's HEALTH!

-Margot

- Original Message -----

From: doshiwoo297@...

Vaccinationsegroups

Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:45 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Welcome to Vaccinations - Introduction

Margot, thanks !I did not know that!What do you tell the doctors?tough is going through this!a

[Guest guest]

At 01:59 AM 06/23/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>Sheri Thanks

>I was wondering did you ever tell a pediatrician no vaccines in that period

>of time you

>worked there,

No because I wasn't aware of the dangers.

You might as well tell them no they cannot be a pediatrician.I

>am not be condesending I hope.I am just scared that they will ban my

children

>if I come across wrong,but I should not be!

And if they do ban your children, you'll find another pediatrician,

homeopath or naturopath.

Life will go on and your babies will be safe.

Believe me they won't be there for you if there is a vaccine reaction of

significance. I've heard this from dozens and dozens and dozens of parents

who have vaccine damaged children.

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS

MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO

VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

Bookstore - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/bookstor.htm

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

KVMR Broadcaster/Programmer/Investigative Reporter, Nevada City CA

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

At 02:17 AM 06/23/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>Thanks again Margot. Can I claim a medical waiver because the doctor already

>admitted

>Dtap allergy?wondering if any one knows! This all is overwhelming,sometimes.

>We have extensive allergies on both side.They say children predisposed to

>allergies

>should wait or never have vaccines!Wondering if any body else has a Dtap

>damaged child in Washington from 1997?We have good attneys in Boston,MA

>Conway,Crowley and Homer were using for her case.Has anybody else used them?

>a

>

Relax and take a deep breath. You will learn a lot here and there is time.

Again, what state are you in - we'll start from there (maybe you said,

can't remember).

Then we'll see what exemptions you have - but you don't need those until

your child goes to school. You can say no now, no exemptions needed. You

may want to put off well baby visit if you feel you need it until you are

more prepared. You need to be informed about all aspects of your decision

- risk of the diseases and risk of the vaccines.

Did your doctor agree that your child had a reaction to the hep b vaccine?

Did a report get filed with VAERS. THat is the first step, if your doctor

won't do it, you can. Others on the list have done this and can help

there. You can't sue until you go thru the VAERS process.

More later.

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS

MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO

VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

Bookstore - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/bookstor.htm

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

KVMR Broadcaster/Programmer/Investigative Reporter, Nevada City CA

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

There is alot of information out there as to how vaccines weaken the immune

system and are damaging to our bodies. Also, vaccines are a high profit

commodity for doctors and Pharmaceutical companies. When someone is

*threatened* such as lobbyist for vaccines, they put out blanket statements

such as *you can put anything on the Internet* or *your neglecting your

child if you don't vaccinate* or *this is not scientific information*.

There are quite a few scare tactics used to not vaccinate. The best you can

do is research and talk to people.

If you go to egroups and go to *My Groups* click on this list, then on the

left side clink on Links, and there is a wonderful list of links you can go

to for starters. (Here is the link, this will be easier):

Vaccinations

Keep asking questions and good luck with your decision.

My daughter was born at home to protect her and I from the dangers that lurk

in the hospital, she is not vaccinated and our Dr. has done much research on

vaccines and agrees with our decision. Here is a very informational paper

he's written: http://www.woodmed.com/VaccineScene2000.htm

Regards,

Dawn

Re: Welcome to Vaccinations - Introduction

> Hi, my name is . I am 31 and my wife and I just had our 2nd child.

> Our first child, , died of SIDS when he was a little over a 2

weeks

> old. We will never allow Giselle to sleep by herself. We are struggling

> with the decision of vaccinating or not vaccinating. I was wondering if

> anyone could give me any information or links to information. We know

that

> this is a big decision, we don't want to go into it lightly.

>

> My wife is very pro-vaccine, at the moment, but is willing to hear my

side.

> I don't want to do anything to lose another child. I have looked at a

couple

> websites...but she says that anyone can write anything on a website. I

hate

> to admit it, but she's right. Anyhoo. I'd love any information you can

give

> me to sway my wife. I've tried to read the archives for this list...but

> there are too many and I don't have much free time.

>

> Thank you.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,

> contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest

> price. New FREE service!

> 1/5746/10/_/489317/_/961726627/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

a,

Welcome! Let's look at the worst case scenario based on your comment.

The worst fear you have is that your children get banned. It is

important to understand that your children are not just 'patients' but

rather 'clients'. No different then you going to an accountant. If the

accountant suggests something and you say no or I want to wait...you

don't expect them to freek out and 'ban' you. Get my picture. The fact

of the matter is that no matter how much they say they care about YOUR

children if YOU don't PAY them they could care more or less and

eventually will not even see your child. Doctors are no different then

any other profession. They are a business and as such are in it for

money. VERY few doctors would do their job if they were not getting

paid. Hence, it is critical that you take your time, do your research

and understand that in the end it is you that has to live with your

decision. For all the medical profession's concern, if your child has a

reaction or dies they don't know you or acknowledge you. It happened to

us and many others I know. Some of them are on this list. This is not

easy but if your child is not going to daycare you have time. I would

encourage you to take each individual vaccine, research

disease/incidince rates, learn the side effects of vaccine, how disease

is spread, prevented and treated should your child get the disease. I

think when you research it more you will find it not so terrifying, as

the way the medical profession portrays the diseases. Let's face it our

parents, many of them, got measles, mumps, chickenpox. There are many

people who get Hep B and 90% of them recover fully, according to the

gov't own information. Rubella vaccine is useless until the time a

woman may get pregnant, and even then it is questionable. My question

is always if it was so necessary, why don't all ob/gyn doctors keep up

with their rubella vaccines. (source: one of Neil Z. 's books)

HiB is a concern if child is in daycare. If not, much less concern (see

Neustaedter book). Pertussis, I know people who have gotten it. In fact

I know a whole family who got it and were fine. Difficult yes, life

threatening for them, no. Polio..don't even get me started. You need to

do the research on how the gov't, according to their own documents,

changed the definitions of reactions to make it appear the polio vaccine

solved the 'epidemic'. I could go on and on. Also, make sure to

research how germs are spread (three different theories) and how a

proper immune system affects contracting a disease. But for now, take

it one at a time otherwise you will go into overload and AlWAYS remember

you are a docs customer first and foremost.

oshiwoo297@... wrote:

>

> Sheri Thanks

> I was wondering did you ever tell a pediatrician no vaccines in that period

> of time you

> worked there,You might as well tell them no they cannot be a pediatrician.I

> am not be condesending I hope.I am just scared that they will ban my children

> if I come across wrong,but I should not be!

> a

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Shop at gazoontite.com & breathe happier and healthier! Click here!

> 1/5491/10/_/489317/_/961739997/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

@...

***************************************************************

Any information obtained here is not to be construed as medical

OR legal advice. The decision to vaccinate and how you

implement that decision is yours and yours alone.

[Guest guest]

Thanks ,

I go to the doctors I will let you know tonight how it goes!

a

[Guest guest]

Did you know on my daughter had HepB on 11/10/97 and so did 5 other friends.

All those children ended up in ICU including my daughter!

a

[Guest guest]

I am getting my daughters lot numbers today!

They made me a copy and the nurse that gave my daughters shots is retired but

the

nurse that took her position is going to make a report.They have been pretty

understanding which is a miracle .We will see though ,I will believe it when

I seee it.

a

[Guest guest]

Great summary, .

Would you post this on babycenter?

Sheri

At 10:00 AM 06/23/2000 -0400, you wrote:

>a,

>Welcome! Let's look at the worst case scenario based on your comment.

>The worst fear you have is that your children get banned. It is

>important to understand that your children are not just 'patients' but

>rather 'clients'. No different then you going to an accountant. If the

>accountant suggests something and you say no or I want to wait...you

>don't expect them to freek out and 'ban' you. Get my picture. The fact

>of the matter is that no matter how much they say they care about YOUR

>children if YOU don't PAY them they could care more or less and

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS

MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO

VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

Well Within's Earth Mysteries & Sacred Site Tours

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin

Bookstore - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/bookstor.htm

International Tours, Homestudy Courses, ANTHRAX & OTHER Vaccine Dangers

Education, Homeopathic Education

KVMR Broadcaster/Programmer/Investigative Reporter, Nevada City CA

CEU's for nurses, Books & Multi-Pure Water Filters

[Guest guest]

Here is another email, his son probably has Hep B shot at birth.

-Dawn

Re: Welcome to Vaccinations - Introduction

> Hi, my name is . I am 31 and my wife and I just had our 2nd child.

> Our first child, , died of SIDS when he was a little over a 2

weeks

> old. We will never allow Giselle to sleep by herself. We are struggling

> with the decision of vaccinating or not vaccinating. I was wondering if

> anyone could give me any information or links to information. We know

that

> this is a big decision, we don't want to go into it lightly.

>

> My wife is very pro-vaccine, at the moment, but is willing to hear my

side.

> I don't want to do anything to lose another child. I have looked at a

couple

> websites...but she says that anyone can write anything on a website. I

hate

> to admit it, but she's right. Anyhoo. I'd love any information you can

give

> me to sway my wife. I've tried to read the archives for this list...but

> there are too many and I don't have much free time.

>

> Thank you.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> STEALS AND DEALS! Cheapest prices on airfare, new cars, insurance, maids,

> contractors, collectibles, more. Get exactly what you want at the lowest

> price. New FREE service!

> 1/5746/10/_/489317/_/961726627/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Have you reported it to VAERS? Also, I really encourage you to report it

to NVIC. This is a parent organization that helps parents file reports,

etc. They also act as a watch dog group. Their site is www.909shot.com

Did all the kids the vaccine from the same lost #?

doshiwoo297@... wrote:

>

> Did you know on my daughter had HepB on 11/10/97 and so did 5 other friends.

> All those children ended up in ICU including my daughter!

> a

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Need to allergy-proof your bedroom? Pristine mattress

> encasements form a breathable barrier that protects your family from

> common allergens. Order one today and get two pillow encasements FREE!

> 1/5493/10/_/489317/_/961785868/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

@...

***************************************************************

Any information obtained here is not to be construed as medical

OR legal advice. The decision to vaccinate and how you

implement that decision is yours and yours alone.