Re:Guardianship reporting to court

[Guest guest]

Fran this is excellent information re Lake Co. I looked in my guardianship binder for

our son and have the guide you mentioned: A Practitioner’s Guide To Adult Guardianship In Illinois. I couldn’t find it through the

Illinois Guardianship and Advocacy Commissions site but when I put the title

into I found it at their address: http://gac.state.il.us/pdfs/PRAGUIDE.pdf

Thanks for the added info.

Louise

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[Guest guest]

,

I live in Flossmoor and work for the Tinley Park Park District and serve a church in Tinley Park as well. I was president of the Chicago/South Suburban ASA chapter--for about six years--which is no longer exists. I believe there is a Southwest Cook ASA chapter but haven't heard anything about it lately. So the answer to your question is, I don't think so. I still get one or two ASA calls a month and folks are still referred to me--my district did include Tinley Park. Please have the person contact me directly and I will see what I can do and what they need. I do not think there is any group that meets on a regular basis down here any more. There are occassionaly sib groups that are formed for various reasons but I haven't heard of anything lately.

As one of your c-moderators, you could have always asked this question--the south suburbs have always been represented

Marie

>> Now that our group has spread to many towns, I thought maybe someone would have an answer to the below e-mail. > Thanks in advance, Richter> > Someone I met at a recent Little Friends (Naperville) seminar, would like to know if anyone is aware of any support or sib groups around Tinley Park. Thanks, Belcher> > > Re:Guardianship reporting to court> > > > Fran this is excellent information re Lake Co. I looked in my guardianship binder for our son and have the guide you mentioned: A Practitioner's Guide To Adult Guardianship In Illinois. I couldn't find it through the Illinois Guardianship and Advocacy Commissions site but when I put the title into I found it at their address: http://gac.state.il.us/pdfs/PRAGUIDE.pdf > > > > Thanks for the added info. > > > > Louise> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/842 - Release Date: 6/9/2007 10:46 AM>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Marie, I sent it on. She will contact you thru this group.

Re:Guardianship reporting to court> > > > Fran this is excellent information re Lake Co. I looked in my guardianship binder for our son and have the guide you mentioned: A Practitioner's Guide To Adult Guardianship In Illinois. I couldn't find it through the Illinois Guardianship and Advocacy Commissions site but when I put the title into I found it at their address: http://gac.state.il.us/pdfs/PRAGUIDE.pdf > > > > Thanks for the added info. > > > > Louise> > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/842 - Release Date: 6/9/2007 10:46 AM>

[Guest guest]

My sister is the guardian of 2 of my 3 brothers with disabilities. She has never been summoned to court or asked to account for anything. She has been their guardian for 8 years. If she had to go back and fill out 8 years worth of accountings it would take forever. She lives in McHenry county but applied for and got guardianship in Cook county (where my brothers lived at the time).

One of the reasons that we are so passionate about sibling issues is how woefully unprepared we were to handle things when our Mom died. Here it is 8 years later and we are still trying to figure out the ridiculous bureaucratic so called system. That is why my sister and I are organizing the 2nd Northern IL Adult Sibling Conference at Pioneer Center on September 15.

Anyway what do you think my sister should do now. One attorney told her Cook County will never ask her for anything. Our Mom never had to report to the court in the 20+ years she was guardian after they reached the age of majority. We are afraid we will open a can of worms if she starts reporting now. She has enough to do as it is functioning as the caseworker for all three brothers. NoraSee what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

She is guardian of the person AND the estate. We thought they would summon her and now we think understand that she is supposed to initiate this herself. She has all the receipts and everything in Quicken. How detailed do records need to be. Are tax returns required as well? What would you do if you had not done reports for 8 years? Is it better just to leave it alone and keep good records? This did all happen in Cook where my brothers lived at the time of our Mom's death. They all live in McHenry now, first with my sister and now one is in a group home in Woodstock and the other in a group home in Marengo. Thanks for checking and I hope this makes the situation more clear. I have also wondered if there would be a benefit to me being a co-guardian. Nora

In a message dated 6/14/2007 4:25:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, egskb@... writes:

Attorney Rubin, an expert in matters of estate planning and guardianship was kind enough to supply the following information:

From: Ellen Bronfeld [mailto:egskbsbcglobal (DOT) net] Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:28 AM N RubinSubject: can you comment

My sister is the guardian of 2 of my 3 brothers with disabilities. She has never been summoned to court or asked to account for anything. [ Rubin:] Probably because she is only Guardian of the Person and NOT Guardian of the Estate. She has been their guardian for 8 years. If she had to go back and fill out 8 years worth of accountings it would take forever. [ Rubin:] If the only were appointed Guardian of the Person, in their petition for Guardian was it disclosed that there were assets in the brother’s names? She lives in McHenry county but applied for and got guardianship in Cook county (where my brothers lived at the time). [ Rubin:] That is correct, it is the county in which they, not her, reside. Cook County for Guardian of the Person, in recent years requires a one page questionnaire be filled out and mailed in each year. For older ones they have not been doing that.

One of the reasons that we are so passionate about sibling issues is how woefully unprepared we were to handle things when our Mom died. Here it is 8 years later and we are still trying to figure out the ridiculous bureaucratic so called system. That is why my sister and I are organizing the 2nd Northern IL Adult Sibling Conference at Pioneer Center on September 15.

Anyway what do you think my sister should do now. One attorney told her Cook County will never ask her for anything. Our Mom never had to report to the court in the 20+ years she was guardian after they reached the age of majority. We are afraid we will open a can of worms if she starts reporting now. She has enough to do as it is functioning as the caseworker for all three brothers. Nora

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]



Before I forward this to , let's see if anyone else can answer this for you.

If not, I can pass this on to him.

I feel very comfortable asking a question of my personal friends and experts but I try to limit it so as not to take advantage...unfortunately I know that one question almost never gets to all the information that is needed! And, of course, as we all know, one answer usually leads to many more questions!!!

I will monitor and forward this within the week if no one else can answer this for you.

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskb@...

can you comment

My sister is the guardian of 2 of my 3 brothers with disabilities. She has never been summoned to court or asked to account for anything. [ Rubin:] Probably because she is only Guardian of the Person and NOT Guardian of the Estate. She has been their guardian for 8 years. If she had to go back and fill out 8 years worth of accountings it would take forever. [ Rubin:] If the only were appointed Guardian of the Person, in their petition for Guardian was it disclosed that there were assets in the brother’s names? She lives in McHenry county but applied for and got guardianship in Cook county (where my brothers lived at the time). [ Rubin:] That is correct, it is the county in which they, not her, reside. Cook County for Guardian of the Person, in recent years requires a one page questionnaire be filled out and mailed in each year. For older ones they have not been doing that.

One of the reasons that we are so passionate about sibling issues is how woefully unprepared we were to handle things when our Mom died. Here it is 8 years later and we are still trying to figure out the ridiculous bureaucratic so called system. That is why my sister and I are organizing the 2nd Northern IL Adult Sibling Conference at Pioneer Center on September 15.

Anyway what do you think my sister should do now. One attorney told her Cook County will never ask her for anything. Our Mom never had to report to the court in the 20+ years she was guardian after they reached the age of majority. We are afraid we will open a can of worms if she starts reporting now. She has enough to do as it is functioning as the caseworker for all three brothers. Nora

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

OK I'll jump right in here with my first post! Hi everyone!

Nora I'll try to answer your questions as you presented them.

> She is guardian of the person AND the estate.

The guardian of the person is obligated to file an Annual Report on Ward every

year. This

is relatively simple and you can request the form from the Probate Clerk's

office at the

Daley Center. It has to be filled out and mailed directly to the judge who is

currently

presiding over the case. It does not necessarily require a court appearance

provided

nothing of substance has changed in the past year. More on this below.

The guardian of the Estate has an obligation to file Annual Accountings every

year with the

Court. This is a bit more compicated and yes, onerous, than the Guardian of the

Person's

obligation regarding the Annual Report on Ward. It is also looked at closely by

the courts

in Cook County.

> We thought they would summon her and now we think understand that she is

supposed to initiate this herself.

Correct. The Guardian of both the Person and the Estate has several duties put

upon them

including reporting to the court - knowing what date such reports and

accountings are

due, etc.

>She has all the receipts and everything in Quicken. How detailed do records

need to be.

Annual Accountings need to be fairly detailed. Basically you have to account

for every

penny in and every penny out. Your starting point for year #1 is the Inventory

that is

required by law and should have been prepared and filed within 60 days of her

appointment as Guardian of the Estate. Then, on the year anniversary of that

filing (so

about 14 months after receiving letters of Office) the Guaradian of the Estate

starts with

the figures in the Inventory and follows the money from there. Your accounting

period is

12 months.

>Are tax returns required as well?

Tax returns are not required per se, but in your accounting you would reflect if

any taxes

were paid.

>What would you do if you had not done reports for 8 years? Is it better just

to leave it

alone and keep good records?

Do not just leave it alone. She runs the risk of the court figuring this out

and being

removed for breach of fiduciary duty (albeit that is the worst case scenario).

If she has

kept complete records in Quicken for the past 8 years then half the battle is

already fought

and won.

> This did all happen in Cook where my brothers lived at the time of our Mom's

death.

>They all live in McHenry now, first with my sister and now one is in a group

home in

>Woodstock and the other in a group home in Marengo.

While the Guardian of the Person has slighly less court-related obligations than

the

Guardian of the Estate, one obligation on the Guardian of the Person is to seek

prior court

approval before making any type of residential placement or changing the

placement of

the ward. This is so that the judge can be certain that the placement is

appropriate for the

ward. Also, had she been mailing her Annual Report on Ward then such changes ini

placement would be known to the court.

The Cook County court still retains jurisdiction ofver the matters. So you

report and file

your accountings there.

> I have also wondered if there would be a benefit to me being a co-guardian.

There is no need for a co-guardian if the current guardian is still willing to

take on the full

responsibilities of her role. If you are worried about the current guardian's

abilities or

willingness, then perhaps a substitution is more appropriate. That or you could

also seek

out a stand-by guardianship which means when she is no longer willing to act

there is

someone in line with court approval to step in so there is no gap in

guardianship.

Being a guardian is not a simple job - as you can tell from all the above. As

co-guardian

you would have all the same repsonsiblitities that are set forth above (and

more). You

have to ask yourself if there is any benefit.

I'd just like to know who her attorney was at the time she petitioned for

Guardianship? He

or she should have advised her of all of this.

Well, I know there was a lot here and probably not such great news. And one

more little

nugget of joy for her...chances are that as Guardian off the ESTATE the courts

in Cook

County will require her to get an attorney to help her out with all of the

Annual

Accountings. If she was Guardian of the PERSON ONLY, then the court would most

likely

not require her to have representation.

Hope this helps!!

~ Amy

[Guest guest]

Hi Amy and Nora:

Amy, you imply that attorney representation is expected/necessary for guardianship. Not everyone uses an attorney during the process of petitioning for guardianship. It is not legally required to do so, at least not to my knowledge.

But, thank you for your response to Nora's questions.

Nora, please let us know if you have more questions. I think this discussion might prove useful to others.

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskb@...

Re:Guardianship reporting to court

OK I'll jump right in here with my first post! Hi everyone!Nora I'll try to answer your questions as you presented them.> She is guardian of the person AND the estate.The guardian of the person is obligated to file an Annual Report on Ward every year. This is relatively simple and you can request the form from the Probate Clerk's office at the Daley Center. It has to be filled out and mailed directly to the judge who is currently presiding over the case. It does not necessarily require a court appearance provided nothing of substance has changed in the past year. More on this below.The guardian of the Estate has an obligation to file Annual Accountings every year with the Court. This is a bit more compicated and yes, onerous, than the Guardian of the Person's obligation regarding the Annual Report on Ward. It is also looked at closely by the courts in Cook County.> We thought they would summon her and now we think understand that she is supposed to initiate this herself. Correct. The Guardian of both the Person and the Estate has several duties put upon them including reporting to the court - knowing what date such reports and accountings are due, etc.>She has all the receipts and everything in Quicken. How detailed do records need to be. Annual Accountings need to be fairly detailed. Basically you have to account for every penny in and every penny out. Your starting point for year #1 is the Inventory that is required by law and should have been prepared and filed within 60 days of her appointment as Guardian of the Estate. Then, on the year anniversary of that filing (so about 14 months after receiving letters of Office) the Guaradian of the Estate starts with the figures in the Inventory and follows the money from there. Your accounting period is 12 months. >Are tax returns required as well? Tax returns are not required per se, but in your accounting you would reflect if any taxes were paid. >What would you do if you had not done reports for 8 years? Is it better just to leave it alone and keep good records? Do not just leave it alone. She runs the risk of the court figuring this out and being removed for breach of fiduciary duty (albeit that is the worst case scenario). If she has kept complete records in Quicken for the past 8 years then half the battle is already fought and won. > This did all happen in Cook where my brothers lived at the time of our Mom's death. >They all live in McHenry now, first with my sister and now one is in a group home in >Woodstock and the other in a group home in Marengo. While the Guardian of the Person has slighly less court-related obligations than the Guardian of the Estate, one obligation on the Guardian of the Person is to seek prior court approval before making any type of residential placement or changing the placement of the ward. This is so that the judge can be certain that the placement is appropriate for the ward. Also, had she been mailing her Annual Report on Ward then such changes ini placement would be known to the court.The Cook County court still retains jurisdiction ofver the matters. So you report and file your accountings there.> I have also wondered if there would be a benefit to me being a co-guardian. There is no need for a co-guardian if the current guardian is still willing to take on the full responsibilities of her role. If you are worried about the current guardian's abilities or willingness, then perhaps a substitution is more appropriate. That or you could also seek out a stand-by guardianship which means when she is no longer willing to act there is someone in line with court approval to step in so there is no gap in guardianship. Being a guardian is not a simple job - as you can tell from all the above. As co-guardian you would have all the same repsonsiblitities that are set forth above (and more). You have to ask yourself if there is any benefit.I'd just like to know who her attorney was at the time she petitioned for Guardianship? He or she should have advised her of all of this. Well, I know there was a lot here and probably not such great news. And one more little nugget of joy for her...chances are that as Guardian off the ESTATE the courts in Cook County will require her to get an attorney to help her out with all of the Annual Accountings. If she was Guardian of the PERSON ONLY, then the court would most likely not require her to have representation.Hope this helps!!~ Amy

[Guest guest]

Thanks Ellen! NoraSee what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Amy and Ellen

I find this very scary and worrisome. We had bad advice in the beginning but later we did go to people who are experts in this (I would rather not name names at this point). Honestly I would be afraid to have her file anything after what you (Amy) said. We did not know we had to do these things and if we do them now then everything that my sister did will be questioned???? She gave up her life and job to take care of these guys and this is the crap she will get for it. Geez!!!!!! See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Amy

I know you are trying to reassure me but I am not feeling any better about this. I will tell you why I have little faith in the judges and the courts. One of my brothers (he has HFA but is his own guardian) has a girlfriend with a state appointed guardian. From what I can see she is a horrible guardian who allows this woman to be kept in a large facility that she hates and then lets her do things that I believe put her at risk

Another example is a family member who is widowed and had a large wrongful death settlement. The courts made her put much of it aside for her two girls which was fine but then when she wanted to spend some of it on things like braces for her kids and the judge would not let her. Then when she petitioned the court because she thought 18 was too young for the girls to come into the whole amount (now over 2 million for each) the would not change it. She just wanted them to get the money in a few payments and when they were a little older.

Why should I have any faith that the over burdened Cook county courts will do right by my brothers. I don't and I don't think anyone should burden my sister anymore. You know people always say how wonderful we are to be so involved with our brothers and i found it strange but maybe I can see now why people especially sibs run away from this responsibility. The whole system sucks in my opinion. Excuse me but that is how I feel. I guess we will need to waste yet more money on lawyers. Nora

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ellen -

In Cook County Guaridanship proceedings, attorney representation is generally

expected

where there will be a guardianship of the estate. When there is a petition for

person only,

then generally the judges won't ask for the nominated guardian to have an

attorney,

particularly if the nominated guardian is the parent.

You are correct - it is not a legal requirement, and as with any legal

proceeding, any

individual can act pro se - or without representation. The law never forces

anyone to

retain a lawyer. But as I stated to Nora, it is certanly the Cook Co. judges'

preference when

there is a Guardian of the Estate. Actually, Nora's family situation is one

example of why

most Cook Co. judges prefer that Estate Guardians have representation. In her

case, if the

guardian of the estate had legal advice when she petitioned to become Guardian

then all

of this would have been explained to her at the outset and I am sure she would

not be in

the complicated situation she curently faces. And no doubt she has been acting

with the

best of intentions all along! It's just that Estate Guardianship is a serious

job with serious

rules that can easily, if inadvertently, be broken. And often - although not

here - it is our

disabled adult child who bears the brunt when the Guardian breaches his or her

duties.

After all, it is their money (in the Estate Guardianship situation) should

something go

wrong.

You can also see that Nora's family situation is certainly a bit more

complicated than

petitioning for a basic Guardianship of the Person. And so I believe that at

this point when

the Guardian returns to court for the first time in eight years the judge in

Cook County will

expect the Guardian of the Estate to get an attorney to help sort it all out and

to ensure

that there are no further problems moving forward.

Remember, the courts are always looking out for our kids. When a judge in Cook

County

tells a Guardian of the Estate they need a lawyer its not just to be a PITA.

Rather, it is an

acknowledgement that Estate Guardianship is a serious job with serious and

somewhat

burdensome responsibilties. Its so that the Guardian can completely fulfill his

or her

duties and the Judge can be assured that our child (or children) are adequately

protected

at all times. This becomes particularly important when the parent or close

family member

is no longer acting as guardian.

>

> Hi Amy and Nora:

> Amy, you imply that attorney representation is expected/necessary for

guardianship.

Not everyone uses an attorney during the process of petitioning for

guardianship. It is not

legally required to do so, at least not to my knowledge.

> But, thank you for your response to Nora's questions.

> Nora, please let us know if you have more questions. I think this discussion

might

prove useful to others.

> Ellen

>

> Ellen Garber Bronfeld

> egskb@...

[Guest guest]

>

> Amy and Ellen

>

> I find this very scary and worrisome. We had bad advice in the beginning

> but later we did go to people who are experts in this (I would rather not

name

> names at this point). Honestly I would be afraid to have her file anything

> after what you (Amy) said. We did not know we had to do these things and if

> we do them now then everything that my sister did will be questioned???? She

> gave up her life and job to take care of these guys and this is the crap she

> will get for it. Geez!!!!!!

>

Nora - I can understand your reticence after all that I said. But honestly,

doing nothing

will only make the situation worse. Moreover, I have no doubt that your sister

has only the

best of intentions. The Court will eventually see that. They will just need to

be assured

that the Guardian did not purposefully avoid accounting but was instead

operating under

poor advice ouf counsel...and once she obtained good advice she acted

immediately to

rectify. The court needs to be assured that your sister has only done the best

for the two

men in her care. And yes, she will be questioned. But she has the answers so

she should

not worry. The fact that she kept records all along, but just fell short of

preparing the

accounting, will work in her favor (as proof she wasn't up to any funny business

with the

money). It's a big hurdle to jump over, true, but I don't think it's an

insurmountable one.

Try not to look at it as getting crap from the court. Remember it's the court's

job to look

out for and protect the wards - not to protect the guardians. Therefore it's in

some ways

the court's job to question the guardians, and cetainly when there is a lapse

(ecen an

innocent one). And as a parent who will eventually have to acknowledge that

someone

else will most likely be acting as the Guardian of my son, I'm OK with judges

questioning

guardians and holding them accountable.

[Guest guest]

Nora - I understand your feelings.

Your first example is why state-appointed guardians are the guardians of last

resort.

Know however that your brother's girlfriend (with the help of your brother

perhaps) can

deal directly with the court if she feels that the facility she is in is no

good. Any ward can

write directly to the judge with any concern or issue and the judge (at least in

Cook Co)

will take it seriously and look into it.

The second example is not the fault of the courts. With a wrongful death

settlement the

surviving children are entitled to a share - this is set by statute and not by

the whim of the

judge. I presume that the mom got a significant share for herself. The judge

probably

presumed that the mother would pay for her own daughters' braces out of her own

funds

(as the rest of us do) and not look to the girls' inheritance to pick up the

tab. Now if the

mom had no money of her own, that might be a different story.

Also, the fact that a minor will come into the money at 18 is also set by

staute, not the

judge. This is the age of majority...and it is the same threshold we as parents

deal with

when we have disabled children. At 18 the law presumes you are an adult -

actual

maturity is irrelevant. Therefore, in your example, the minor children turend

18, and

instantly they are a fully fledged legal adult with full rights and entitlements

to that

money. No doubt the mom wanted to withhold some if not all of the funds. Who

wants an

18 year old to have access to more than $100? Let alone millions?!?! But

again, that's not

the judge's call - thats the law and the judge has absolutely no power to make

any other

decision whatsoever. Here the problem is not the court or the system - the

problem as

you see it is written down in the Illinois Statutes, which as you know are

written by our

legislators in Springfield.

Your sister is the guardian of the estate and person. Is this a burden? Yes.

It is an

ongoing job with lots of work, no bonuses, no promotions, no accolades other

than the

peace of mind that the disabled adult is well cared for to the best of our

abilities. And

yes, often people do decline to act. Or maybe they start the job but soon

realize how

serious it is and then seek to step down. This is also why we as parents need

to be

careful in selecting or successor guardians.

In this case the system is in place to protect the disabled adult who cannot

effectively

advocate and protect themselves. It is meant to be supervisory, it has built in

accountability. The alternative (less rigorous accounting and/or reporting

provisions)

leaves our disabled adult children far too prone to financial abuse and even

physical

neglect or mistreatment at the hands of their guardians.

Lets put it this way...had your sister known at the outset that all of this

would be required

of her...the annual reports, the petitions to the court to change placement, the

annual

accountings...had she known all this and more would be required, would she have

declined to act?

>

> Amy

>

> I know you are trying to reassure me but I am not feeling any better about

> this. I will tell you why I have little faith in the judges and the courts.

> One of my brothers (he has HFA but is his own guardian) has a girlfriend

> with a state appointed guardian. From what I can see she is a horrible

guardian

> who allows this woman to be kept in a large facility that she hates and then

> lets her do things that I believe put her at risk

>

> Another example is a family member who is widowed and had a large wrongful

> death settlement. The courts made her put much of it aside for her two girls

> which was fine but then when she wanted to spend some of it on things like

> braces for her kids and the judge would not let her. Then when she

petitioned

> the court because she thought 18 was too young for the girls to come into the

> whole amount (now over 2 million for each) the would not change it. She just

> wanted them to get the money in a few payments and when they were a little

> older.

>

> Why should I have any faith that the over burdened Cook county courts will

> do right by my brothers. I don't and I don't think anyone should burden my

> sister anymore. You know people always say how wonderful we are to be so

> involved with our brothers and i found it strange but maybe I can see now why

> people especially sibs run away from this responsibility. The whole system

sucks

> in my opinion. Excuse me but that is how I feel. I guess we will need to

> waste yet more money on lawyers. Nora

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

>

[Guest guest]

Amy:

This may sound like an ignorant question (I admit, I am not particularly knowledgeable in this area!) but, if one has a special needs trust and a will facilitated by a competent attorney, delineating succession of trustees/guardians, and the individual with a disability has no more than $2,000.00 n the bank at any one time, does one still need a guardian of the estate?

Also, just out of curiosity, you are so well informed in this area. Are you an attorney?

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskb@...

Re:Guardianship reporting to court

Hi Ellen -In Cook County Guaridanship proceedings, attorney representation is generally expected where there will be a guardianship of the estate. When there is a petition for person only, then generally the judges won't ask for the nominated guardian to have an attorney, particularly if the nominated guardian is the parent. You are correct - it is not a legal requirement, and as with any legal proceeding, any individual can act pro se - or without representation. The law never forces anyone to retain a lawyer. But as I stated to Nora, it is certanly the Cook Co. judges' preference when there is a Guardian of the Estate. Actually, Nora's family situation is one example of why most Cook Co. judges prefer that Estate Guardians have representation. In her case, if the guardian of the estate had legal advice when she petitioned to become Guardian then all of this would have been explained to her at the outset and I am sure she would not be in the complicated situation she curently faces. And no doubt she has been acting with the best of intentions all along! It's just that Estate Guardianship is a serious job with serious rules that can easily, if inadvertently, be broken. And often - although not here - it is our disabled adult child who bears the brunt when the Guardian breaches his or her duties. After all, it is their money (in the Estate Guardianship situation) should something go wrong. You can also see that Nora's family situation is certainly a bit more complicated than petitioning for a basic Guardianship of the Person. And so I believe that at this point when the Guardian returns to court for the first time in eight years the judge in Cook County will expect the Guardian of the Estate to get an attorney to help sort it all out and to ensure that there are no further problems moving forward. Remember, the courts are always looking out for our kids. When a judge in Cook County tells a Guardian of the Estate they need a lawyer its not just to be a PITA. Rather, it is an acknowledgement that Estate Guardianship is a serious job with serious and somewhat burdensome responsibilties. Its so that the Guardian can completely fulfill his or her duties and the Judge can be assured that our child (or children) are adequately protected at all times. This becomes particularly important when the parent or close family member is no longer acting as guardian. >> Hi Amy and Nora:> Amy, you imply that attorney representation is expected/necessary for guardianship. Not everyone uses an attorney during the process of petitioning for guardianship. It is not legally required to do so, at least not to my knowledge.> But, thank you for your response to Nora's questions.> Nora, please let us know if you have more questions. I think this discussion might prove useful to others.> Ellen> > Ellen Garber Bronfeld> egskb@...

[Guest guest]

Nora:

I feel terrible for your situation and though I am not able to offer any solutions, just know that so many of us have similar thoughts and feelings.

Our loved ones are so vulnerable and sometimes the very systems established to support and protect them, fail to do so. It is not hard to see why you and others become frustrated and angry.

I am sure there are attorneys who work for reduced fees and on sliding scales...anyone know of a competent attorney to recommend to Nora, who works with families on cost of service?

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskb@...

Re: Re:Guardianship reporting to court

Amy

I know you are trying to reassure me but I am not feeling any better about this. I will tell you why I have little faith in the judges and the courts. One of my brothers (he has HFA but is his own guardian) has a girlfriend with a state appointed guardian. From what I can see she is a horrible guardian who allows this woman to be kept in a large facility that she hates and then lets her do things that I believe put her at risk

Another example is a family member who is widowed and had a large wrongful death settlement. The courts made her put much of it aside for her two girls which was fine but then when she wanted to spend some of it on things like braces for her kids and the judge would not let her. Then when she petitioned the court because she thought 18 was too young for the girls to come into the whole amount (now over 2 million for each) the would not change it. She just wanted them to get the money in a few payments and when they were a little older.

Why should I have any faith that the over burdened Cook county courts will do right by my brothers. I don't and I don't think anyone should burden my sister anymore. You know people always say how wonderful we are to be so involved with our brothers and i found it strange but maybe I can see now why people especially sibs run away from this responsibility. The whole system sucks in my opinion. Excuse me but that is how I feel. I guess we will need to waste yet more money on lawyers. Nora

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

>

> Amy:

> This may sound like an ignorant question (I admit, I am not particularly

knowledgeable

in this area!) but, if one has a special needs trust and a will facilitated by a

competent

attorney, delineating succession of trustees/guardians, and the individual with

a disability

has no more than $2,000.00 n the bank at any one time, does one still need a

guardian of

the estate?

> Also, just out of curiosity, you are so well informed in this area. Are you

an attorney?

> Ellen

Hi Ellen -

In the scenario you set forth above there should be no need for a Guardian of

the Estate

since (other than the small amount of $2000) there are no assets inthe disabled

adult's

name. (Actually the scenario you set forth above is the ideal situation -

where things

have been well planned for and any money given to the disabled individual is

placed into a

SNT. It's the goal we should all strive for).

And yes, besides being the mom of two boys (one on the Autism spectrum and one

with

ADHD/LD), I am an attorney.

I am here to gain knowledge from the group regarding planning for my sons as

they get

older - particularly my guy on the spectrum. Any help I can give in return is

given with

pleasure. I know guardianship can seem complicated - but hopefully I can help

clarify

some things for everyone if the need shoud arise.

[Guest guest]

I also wanted to add that I was referred to this group by another mom in the

PELS group

that I belong to.

Don't want to make anyone suspicious!!

> Hi Ellen -

>

> In the scenario you set forth above there should be no need for a Guardian of

the Estate

> since (other than the small amount of $2000) there are no assets inthe

disabled adult's

> name. (Actually the scenario you set forth above is the ideal situation -

where things

> have been well planned for and any money given to the disabled individual is

placed into

a

> SNT. It's the goal we should all strive for).

>

> And yes, besides being the mom of two boys (one on the Autism spectrum and one

with

> ADHD/LD), I am an attorney.

>

> I am here to gain knowledge from the group regarding planning for my sons as

they get

> older - particularly my guy on the spectrum. Any help I can give in return is

given with

> pleasure. I know guardianship can seem complicated - but hopefully I can help

clarify

> some things for everyone if the need shoud arise.

>

[Guest guest]

Hello, once again I have to say after talking to an attorny years ago when (DS) turned 18 we decided to leave him as his own Guardian. As long as he lives with us or in the future with family, we feel it is better and easier to not file for Guardianship. We feel he will not be alone or be but in a situation that he will get into money or safety problems. If his liveing situation changes then that may be another issue. Everyone is different but this is just what we decided. ShirleyEllen Bronfeld <egskb@...> wrote: Nora: I feel terrible for your situation and though I am not able to offer any solutions, just know that so many of us have similar thoughts and feelings. Our loved ones are so vulnerable and sometimes the very systems established to support and protect them, fail to do so. It is not hard to see why you and others become frustrated and angry. I am sure there are attorneys who work for reduced fees and on sliding scales...anyone know of a competent attorney to recommend to Nora, who works with families on cost of service? Ellen Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskbsbcglobal (DOT) net Re: Re:Guardianship reporting to court Amy I know you are trying to reassure me but I am not feeling any better about this. I will tell you why I have little faith in the judges and the

courts. One of my brothers (he has HFA but is his own guardian) has a girlfriend with a state appointed guardian. From what I can see she is a horrible guardian who allows this woman to be kept in a large facility that she hates and then lets her do things that I believe put her at risk Another example is a family member who is widowed and had a large wrongful death settlement. The courts made her put much of it aside for her two girls which was fine but then when she wanted to spend some of it on things like braces for her kids and the judge would not let her. Then when she petitioned the court because she thought 18 was too young for the girls to come into the whole amount (now over 2 million for each) the would not change it. She just wanted them to get the money in a few payments and when they were a little older. Why should I have any faith that the over burdened Cook

county courts will do right by my brothers. I don't and I don't think anyone should burden my sister anymore. You know people always say how wonderful we are to be so involved with our brothers and i found it strange but maybe I can see now why people especially sibs run away from this responsibility. The whole system sucks in my opinion. Excuse me but that is how I feel. I guess we will need to waste yet more money on lawyers. Nora See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Amy.

We look forward to a "mutually beneficial" relationship!

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskb@...

Re:Guardianship reporting to court

>> Amy:> This may sound like an ignorant question (I admit, I am not particularly knowledgeable in this area!) but, if one has a special needs trust and a will facilitated by a competent attorney, delineating succession of trustees/guardians, and the individual with a disability has no more than $2,000.00 n the bank at any one time, does one still need a guardian of the estate?> Also, just out of curiosity, you are so well informed in this area. Are you an attorney?> EllenHi Ellen - In the scenario you set forth above there should be no need for a Guardian of the Estate since (other than the small amount of $2000) there are no assets inthe disabled adult's name. (Actually the scenario you set forth above is the ideal situation - where things have been well planned for and any money given to the disabled individual is placed into a SNT. It's the goal we should all strive for).And yes, besides being the mom of two boys (one on the Autism spectrum and one with ADHD/LD), I am an attorney. I am here to gain knowledge from the group regarding planning for my sons as they get older - particularly my guy on the spectrum. Any help I can give in return is given with pleasure. I know guardianship can seem complicated - but hopefully I can help clarify some things for everyone if the need shoud arise.

[Guest guest]

No problem...

E

Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskb@...

Re:Guardianship reporting to court

I also wanted to add that I was referred to this group by another mom in the PELS group that I belong to.Don't want to make anyone suspicious!! > Hi Ellen - > > In the scenario you set forth above there should be no need for a Guardian of the Estate > since (other than the small amount of $2000) there are no assets inthe disabled adult's > name. (Actually the scenario you set forth above is the ideal situation - where things > have been well planned for and any money given to the disabled individual is placed into a > SNT. It's the goal we should all strive for).> > And yes, besides being the mom of two boys (one on the Autism spectrum and one with > ADHD/LD), I am an attorney. > > I am here to gain knowledge from the group regarding planning for my sons as they get > older - particularly my guy on the spectrum. Any help I can give in return is given with > pleasure. I know guardianship can seem complicated - but hopefully I can help clarify > some things for everyone if the need shoud arise.>

[Guest guest]

Hi Amy -

Good to see you in this forum as well as the AAC. This is a great group and I

continue to learn much.

We petitioned and were granted " plenery " guardianship (of the person) on

December 13, 2006. We received the instructions that you earlier shared.

" 3. One year after your appointment as guardian and annually thereafter a report

containing the necessary information on the enclosed form shall be filed with

the court. The Office of the State Guardian shall assist the guardian in filing

the report when requested by the guardian. "

The Honorable Ellen Coghlan presided and it was she who told us that the

annual report was our responsibility. It was her office who recommended that we

seek only guardianship of the person and not also of the estate since Josh would

never hold more that 2k in assets.

There are 7 areas that need to be reported on and sent to the Probate Division

at the Daley Center.

We received this form while at court for guardianship.

We found Judge Coghlan approachable and kind.

Pam & Josh

--

Strengthening the Family's Voice of AAC /

we're blogging!

http://aacfamily.vox.com/

Thanks, Amy.

We look forward to a "mutually beneficial" relationship!

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskbsbcglobal (DOT) net

Re:Guardianship reporting to court

>> Amy:> This may sound like an ignorant question (I admit, I am not particularly knowledgeable in this area!) but, if one has a special needs trust and a will facilitated by a competent attorney, delineating succession of trustees/guardians, and the individual with a disability has no more than $2,000.00 n the bank at any one time, does one still need a guardian of the estate?> Also, just out of curiosity, you are so well informed in this area. Are you an attorney?> EllenHi Ellen - In the scenario you set forth above there should be no need for a Guardian of the Estate since (other than the small amount of $2000) there are no assets inthe disabled adult's name. (Actually the scenario you set forth above is the ideal situation - where things have been well planned for and any money given to the disabled individual is placed into a SNT. It's the goal we should all strive for).And yes, besides being the mom of two boys (one on the Autism spectrum and one with ADHD/LD), I am an attorney. I am here to gain knowledge from the group regarding planning for my sons as they get older - particularly my guy on the spectrum. Any help I can give in return is given with pleasure. I know guardianship can seem complicated - but hopefully I can help clarify some things for everyone if the need shoud arise.

[Guest guest]

Amy, Great info. My husband and I are Trustees to our 2 sons OBRA Special needs Trusts. We are not Guardians of any kind, but my husband has Power of Attorney for Property. I have done the forms sent to us from Social Security each year to account for their SSI, SSDI money, We have never done any reporting on the OBRA Trust, except when we first applied for SSI, SSDI, and Medicaid. We have never used any of the money and we have filed taxes each year. Do we need to do anything else. We are always so stressed - We do not remember anything the lawyer said. Thanks - Jean

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

I put a note on my calendar a year ahead that I must file the appropriate paper work to retain guardianship. I have made multiple copies of the form, which is permissable, and store it with our letters of intent. It is not a complicated form.

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeldegskb@...

Re: Re:Guardianship reporting to court

Hi Amy -Good to see you in this forum as well as the AAC. This is a great group and I continue to learn much. We petitioned and were granted "plenery" guardianship (of the person) on December 13, 2006. We received the instructions that you earlier shared. "3. One year after your appointment as guardian and annually thereafter a report containing the necessary information on the enclosed form shall be filed with the court. The Office of the State Guardian shall assist the guardian in filing the report when requested by the guardian. "The Honorable Ellen Coghlan presided and it was she who told us that the annual report was our responsibility. It was her office who recommended that we seek only guardianship of the person and not also of the estate since Josh would never hold more that 2k in assets. There are 7 areas that need to be reported on and sent to the Probate Division at the Daley Center. We received this form while at court for guardianship. We found Judge Coghlan approachable and kind. Pam & Josh --Strengthening the Family's Voice of AAC / we're blogging! http://aacfamily.vox.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi - sounds like you have your bases covered! So long as you disclose

everything on

your annual acct/report to the gov't agencies - you should be just fine. Since

there is no

guardianship, you certainly don't have to account to any court. And I hear you

on the

stressed part!

>

>

> Amy, Great info. My husband and I are Trustees to our 2 sons OBRA Special

> needs Trusts. We are not Guardians of any kind, but my husband has Power of

> Attorney for Property. I have done the forms sent to us from Social Security

> each year to account for their SSI, SSDI money, We have never done any

> reporting on the OBRA Trust, except when we first applied for SSI, SSDI, and

> Medicaid. We have never used any of the money and we have filed taxes each

year.

> Do we need to do anything else. We are always so stressed - We do not

> remember anything the lawyer said. Thanks - Jean

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

>