T-cells

September 6, 2003

In a message dated 9/6/2003 12:15:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

allengraves2003@... writes:

I just re-read your posting in a further effort to nderstand...high T

Cell counts are not good, nor is too low...is that it? I've been

confused by all of this for so long ...

T-cells are more like garbagemen than warriors -- although they do have the

capability of killing mutant cells (cancer) by injecting them with hydrogen

peroxide. Mostly, they go around in the blood stream and gobble up debris, like

a Pacman. (You can actually see this -- real, not animiation -- in " The

Immune System " video by Albert .) They deposit the debris in the lymph

nodes, where it is further processed, and go back out cleaning the bloodstream.

The more debris you have, the more t-cells your intelligent body will

manufacture and send out. The Concorde Study (as well as many others) should

have put

an end to the use of t-cells as surrogate markers for AIDS, but, as medicine is

really a religion and, as such, can and does defy logic, it hasn't. And as

AIDS is a political disease more than a biological one, low t-cells was made an

AIDS-defining condition AFTER the Concorde Study was published and clearly

found " T-cell were not a valid surrogate marker for health or disease

progression, " which anyone with half a brain should have known to begin with.

A count by itself is neither good nor bad. If someone quits smoking and sees

the number go down, it is probably a good sign that they are less toxic now.

If someone on medications (which are toxic and should cause the count to

rise) sees his count go down, it is probably a sign that the bone marrow and/or

thymus isn't functioning well -- not a good sign.

The number is of no value. The tube of blood is of more value than the test

to anyone who thinks his health is challenged.

When I studied this stuff almost 20 years ago, I think Guyton's Physiology

was the guide most medical schools used and the " normal range " of t-cells was

200 to 2000. High t-cells was a cause for concern. Testing was usually done to

confirm serious infection like appendicitis. I heard of, but don't have

references to, a study in the sixties on very healthy Olympic Ironmen.

(Tri-atheletes -- probably the fittest people on the planet.) Many were

vegetarian and

had counts in the 60's. I know any of my healthy Natural Hygiene friends who

have been tested were all under 200. Of course their temperatures, blood

pressure and visable age were all lower than " normal " too. Norms are based on

averages. Normal, especially in AMerica, is not always healthy. Not much was

observed about t-cells until AIDS, when it was noticed that these terminally ill

gay men in their 30's and 40's, who had numerous infections and should have

had very high counts, had none. Autopsies revealed their wasted thymus glands

and that should have closed the subject. There was no need for, nor logic to

the virus myth.

Check these articles: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/t4cells.htm

Hope this makes it a little clearer.

Ed

September 6, 2003

Hi Everyone,

well,.....I wish there was some valid thorough extensive 'current'

research, clinical stdies on the whole T-cell count thing. Jeez - think

someone would settle the issue once and for all. My t-cells have always

maintained between 100 - 200. Yippie skippie? I'm fairly healthy - just

gettin over a cold - just using the HIV clinic and physicians as my

primary car providers (although I am my own care-provider). I know since

they are HIV-cultists and I am on their dissdent and denialist list

(lol)......it may be somewhat challenging to keep my interaction with

them. I refused going to see the ENT about my swollen lymph node - its

receded now.....and I will NOT get cut on if its not necessary. IT seems

though....that the Dr. and some of the nurses are in a sense just waiting

for you to come down with things (cascade of illnesses - hiv

related).....and if you keep 'denying' that you have aids (technically

with under 200 t-cells).....you will be coming back to them......and

they'll say..... " I told you so " . So....been thinking over that a little

more - if I need that kind of stuff to deal with. I am more and more

putting the whole hiv stigma behind me (de-programming in

sequence)......also interested in a cassette tape which actually

de-hypnotizes you on the hiv thing - if anyone has resource link or info.

on how to obtain that....please share. May need a booster. Its just that

in the gay community HIV has such a stronghold in minds. Its quite a

mess. ( all this 'Get Tested' hype media fanfare is so glaring -

everywhere you go - I actually wonder how many gay men have gotten tested

ever - percentagewise thru-out the whole gay population - anyone have

stats on this?). Thanks so much all of you for your general and

particular supports and info. - together we can maintain a positive

collective consciousness of health and go forward in the Light. To

perpetual wellness.

:-)

paul

http://www.freelightexpress.com

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:35:46 EDT aidsisover@... writes:

> In a message dated 9/6/2003 12:15:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> allengraves2003@... writes:

> I just re-read your posting in a further effort to nderstand...high

> T

> Cell counts are not good, nor is too low...is that it? I've been

> confused by all of this for so long ...

>

> T-cells are more like garbagemen than warriors -- although they do

> have the

> capability of killing mutant cells (cancer) by injecting them with

> hydrogen

> peroxide. Mostly, they go around in the blood stream and gobble up

> debris, like

> a Pacman. (You can actually see this -- real, not animiation -- in

> " The

> Immune System " video by Albert .) They deposit the debris in

> the lymph

> nodes, where it is further processed, and go back out cleaning the

> bloodstream.

> The more debris you have, the more t-cells your intelligent body

> will

> manufacture and send out. The Concorde Study (as well as many

> others) should have put

> an end to the use of t-cells as surrogate markers for AIDS, but, as

> medicine is

> really a religion and, as such, can and does defy logic, it hasn't.

> And as

> AIDS is a political disease more than a biological one, low t-cells

> was made an

> AIDS-defining condition AFTER the Concorde Study was published and

> clearly

> found " T-cell were not a valid surrogate marker for health or

> disease

> progression, " which anyone with half a brain should have known to

> begin with.

>

> A count by itself is neither good nor bad. If someone quits smoking

> and sees

> the number go down, it is probably a good sign that they are less

> toxic now.

> If someone on medications (which are toxic and should cause the

> count to

> rise) sees his count go down, it is probably a sign that the bone

> marrow and/or

> thymus isn't functioning well -- not a good sign.

>

> The number is of no value. The tube of blood is of more value than

> the test

> to anyone who thinks his health is challenged.

>

> When I studied this stuff almost 20 years ago, I think Guyton's

> Physiology

> was the guide most medical schools used and the " normal range " of

> t-cells was

> 200 to 2000. High t-cells was a cause for concern. Testing was

> usually done to

> confirm serious infection like appendicitis. I heard of, but don't

> have

> references to, a study in the sixties on very healthy Olympic

> Ironmen.

> (Tri-atheletes -- probably the fittest people on the planet.) Many

> were vegetarian and

> had counts in the 60's. I know any of my healthy Natural Hygiene

> friends who

> have been tested were all under 200. Of course their temperatures,

> blood

> pressure and visable age were all lower than " normal " too. Norms

> are based on

> averages. Normal, especially in AMerica, is not always healthy.

> Not much was

> observed about t-cells until AIDS, when it was noticed that these

> terminally ill

> gay men in their 30's and 40's, who had numerous infections and

> should have

> had very high counts, had none. Autopsies revealed their wasted

> thymus glands

> and that should have closed the subject. There was no need for, nor

> logic to

> the virus myth.

>

> Check these articles:

> http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/t4cells.htm

>

> Hope this makes it a little clearer.

>

> Ed

>

September 6, 2003

In a message dated 9/6/2003 4:11:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

freelightexpress@... writes:

well,.....I wish there was some valid thorough extensive 'current'

research, clinical stdies on the whole T-cell count thing. Jeez - think

someone would settle the issue once and for all. My t-cells have always

maintained between 100 - 200. Yippie skippie? I'm fairly healthy - just

gettin over a cold - just using the HIV clinic and physicians as my

primary car providers (although I am my own care-provider).

, , ,

Both the Concorde Study and the Study at St. 's, two of largest studies

ever conducted by other than a pharmaceutical company, clearly concluded that

t-cells were " not a valid surrogate marker for health or disease progression. "

It couldn't be more clear.

Say it out loud:

T-cells are not a valid surrogate marker for health or disease progression.

" Primary care provider " is church terminology. If you're not worshipping at

the church of modern medicine that's a term you don't have to concern yourself

with. You were half right about being your own provider. God helps a

little, too.

You can deprogram yourself, right here.

Say it out loud:

HIV DOES NOT CAUSE AIDS.

(REPEAT x 2)

If that doesn't quite do it for you, Ellner, president of HEAL and a

world-renowned hypnotherapist should have a deprogramming tape. write to

revdocnyc@...

Until you get that, you can listen to this radio interview nine or ten times.

on KLOS radio 2001 Radio Interview - conclusion If that doesn't

do it, I don't know what will. Maybe you will have to come to Miami for some

intensive one-on-one therapy, away from your " primary care " group, and all the

alternative snake oil recipes.

Were you able to try my cold remedy? Sounds like not.

Ed

September 6, 2003

In a message dated 9/7/2003 1:50:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

sey_mour2003@... writes:

Ed,

I read all of your posts with interest, trying to

understand your logic, where your coming from. Am I at

last understanding? are you saying that all of this a

disease of the thymus glands rather than a virus???

regards,

Tomy

Tomy,

Not all of this, but the early victims, approximately 10,000 before the

testing began in 1984, had destroyed their thymus glands with years of drugging

and

that is why they were lacking t-cells. The later victims were mostly victims

of the testing and the treatment -- killed by their doctors.

There is no virus that targets and kills t-cells. The t-cells attack the

virus.

Ed

September 6, 2003

Ed,

I read all of your posts with interest, trying to

understand your logic, where your coming from. Am I at

last understanding? are you saying that all of this a

disease of the thymus glands rather than a virus???

regards,

Tomy

--- aidsisover@... wrote:

---------------------------------

In a message dated 9/6/2003 12:15:20 PM Eastern

Daylight Time,

allengraves2003@... writes:

I just re-read your posting in a further effort to

nderstand...high T

Cell counts are not good, nor is too low...is that it?

I've been

confused by all of this for so long ...

T-cells are more like garbagemen than warriors --

although they do have the

capability of killing mutant cells (cancer) by

injecting them with hydrogen

peroxide. Mostly, they go around in the blood stream

and gobble up debris, like

a Pacman. (You can actually see this -- real, not

animiation -- in " The

Immune System " video by Albert .) They deposit

the debris in the lymph

nodes, where it is further processed, and go back out

cleaning the bloodstream.

The more debris you have, the more t-cells your

intelligent body will

manufacture and send out. The Concorde Study (as well

as many others) should have put

an end to the use of t-cells as surrogate markers for

AIDS, but, as medicine is

really a religion and, as such, can and does defy

logic, it hasn't. And as

AIDS is a political disease more than a biological

one, low t-cells was made an

AIDS-defining condition AFTER the Concorde Study was

published and clearly

found " T-cell were not a valid surrogate marker for

health or disease

progression, " which anyone with half a brain should

have known to begin with.

A count by itself is neither good nor bad. If someone

quits smoking and sees

the number go down, it is probably a good sign that

they are less toxic now.

If someone on medications (which are toxic and should

cause the count to

rise) sees his count go down, it is probably a sign

that the bone marrow and/or

thymus isn't functioning well -- not a good sign.

The number is of no value. The tube of blood is of

more value than the test

to anyone who thinks his health is challenged.

When I studied this stuff almost 20 years ago, I think

Guyton's Physiology

was the guide most medical schools used and the

" normal range " of t-cells was

200 to 2000. High t-cells was a cause for concern.

Testing was usually done to

confirm serious infection like appendicitis. I heard

of, but don't have

references to, a study in the sixties on very healthy

Olympic Ironmen.

(Tri-atheletes -- probably the fittest people on the

planet.) Many were vegetarian and

had counts in the 60's. I know any of my healthy

Natural Hygiene friends who

have been tested were all under 200. Of course their

temperatures, blood

pressure and visable age were all lower than " normal "

too. Norms are based on

averages. Normal, especially in AMerica, is not

always healthy. Not much was

observed about t-cells until AIDS, when it was noticed

that these terminally ill

gay men in their 30's and 40's, who had numerous

infections and should have

had very high counts, had none. Autopsies revealed

their wasted thymus glands

and that should have closed the subject. There was no

need for, nor logic to

the virus myth.

Check these articles:

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/t4cells.htm

Hope this makes it a little clearer.

Ed

September 6, 2003

tomy, you have to treat each and any of us all as individuals. And

that goes for diseases, too. What do you mean by 'all this'?

September 7, 2003

,

By " all this " I mean everything that is blamed on

the hiv virus, I mean all these people around me here

in africa, rich and poor, on traditional med or modern

med, that are waisting away and dieing, i mean people

that have taken a test for hiv and people that have

not who are waisting and dieing, people who are seeing

doctors and people that are not who are waisting away

and dieing, here it's not some distant cousin that was

a drug addict that is dieng of aids, it's two or three

members of your immidiate family. I know that a lot of

people beleive that there is no conection between the

hiv virus or the so called hiv virus and aids or

death, so what is killing these people? I know that

you'll say in africa that it's things like

malnutrition, well it's not because not every one is

malnorished and yet people from all walks of life are

waisting and dieing. For these and many other reasons

I have trouble believing what people on this list

sometimes say, I think to myself if there is no virus

killing people then why do people on this list spend

so much time juicing, jumping up and down on a

rebounder, eating raw veges ect, why dont they just

eat what 99% of the population eats and live relativly

long lives, like our parents did? I think that if they

are not fighting a virus then they must be fighting

something.

Is it a disease, any disease of the thyroid gland that

they are fighting???

Regards,

Tomy

--- allengraves2003 <allengraves2003@...>

wrote:

---------------------------------

tomy, you have to treat each and any of us all as

individuals. And

that goes for diseases, too. What do you mean by 'all

this'?

September 7, 2003

Tommy:

I couldn't agree more. I have the same questions. Like I said there is nothing

better than real life experiance and it seems like you're getting alot of it

down there. Waiting for your response ..Mike

Re: Re: T-cells

,

By " all this " I mean everything that is blamed on

the hiv virus, I mean all these people around me here

in africa, rich and poor, on traditional med or modern

med, that are waisting away and dieing, i mean people

that have taken a test for hiv and people that have

not who are waisting and dieing, people who are seeing

doctors and people that are not who are waisting away

and dieing, here it's not some distant cousin that was

a drug addict that is dieng of aids, it's two or three

members of your immidiate family. I know that a lot of

people beleive that there is no conection between the

hiv virus or the so called hiv virus and aids or

death, so what is killing these people? I know that

you'll say in africa that it's things like

malnutrition, well it's not because not every one is

malnorished and yet people from all walks of life are

waisting and dieing. For these and many other reasons

I have trouble believing what people on this list

sometimes say, I think to myself if there is no virus

killing people then why do people on this list spend

so much time juicing, jumping up and down on a

rebounder, eating raw veges ect, why dont they just

eat what 99% of the population eats and live relativly

long lives, like our parents did? I think that if they

are not fighting a virus then they must be fighting

something.

Is it a disease, any disease of the thyroid gland that

they are fighting???

Regards,

Tomy

--- allengraves2003 <allengraves2003@...>

wrote:

---------------------------------

tomy, you have to treat each and any of us all as

individuals. And

that goes for diseases, too. What do you mean by 'all

this'?

September 7, 2003

In a message dated 9/7/2003 6:47:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

sey_mour2003@... writes:

Ed has said that he knows of hundreds or thousands

that have been " cured " I wish that they would post on

this " cures for AIDS " site so that i could talk to them,

Tomy,

There are dozens of us in the back of 's book and more at her

website. She has hundreds of letters from grateful people and many can be found

at

her web site. But more than that, we knew there were already a million

Americans " with HIV " when we started testing the blood supply in 1984, yet

almost

20 years later 200,000 of them still don't know they " have HIV. " How come

these people didn't get AIDS?

As to Africa, where about 20 million people a year have been dying from

malnutrition and lack of proper sanitation for decades, little has changed,

except

for calling it AIDS. The clinical symptoms of PCM (Protein-Calorie

Malnutrition) are indentical to the clinical symptoms of AIDS. If there is

truly

something new going on, WHO immunizations are probably to blame. During the 2

decades of AIDS, there were less than a million total victims in the US. During

that same period, about 400 million Africans died of AIDS-like diseases.

Despite that, the population of Africa has grown by 274 million in that time.

(About the size of the total US population.) That's the real problem -- not a

virus. That's the real threat to US national security -- not HIV.

So, are you about the oldest person in Zambia? I don't think so. I think

infant mortality is a major factor. 33 might be the average age when you

average in all the " zeros " that didn't survive their first year of life, but if

you've survived childhood and local wars and violence, I would imagine your life

expectency would be at least double that.

For a white person living in the middle of Africa to develop diarrhea is not

unusual. There are all sort of parasitic infections, if it isn't dietary.

Even in America a growing population suffers from irritable bowel syndrome as a

chronic lifetime condition. Others, who reject the medical model, have

changed their diet and totally recovered. Dave Klein, the publisher of Living

Nutrition (livingnutrition.com), is one. Nison is another. He tells his

story at paulnison.com.

On top of whatever else was ailing you, having the additional burden of the

AIDS curse, the stress and worry probably made things worse.

Regarding the exploding t-cell, the virus doesn't attack the t-cell, it the

other way around. Eventually t-cells, like all cells, die and the particals of

what were formerly genomes and mitochondria that made up the interior of the

cell go floating in the bloodstream and are called viruses. If this phenomena

that your friends saw in vitro was going on in any significant quantity in

living people, then why can't scientists find the virus in people?

Disease is not an entity -- despite what the church of medicine would have us

believe. It is a process. It is the way the body takes care of itself.

Health is a multifactorial issue. Healthy acts always produce health. You

don't

have to beat anyone or anything. The only virus you have to destroy is the

virus in your mind. Did you read about the recent high court determination

that HIV has not been proven to cause AIDS? Maybe that will cause you to

rethink

your beliefs? High court rules HIV never proven to cause AIDS

http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=74105 & group=webcast

Are you going to Global PWA conference in Uganda next month? I applied for a

scholarship, but I think they've dropped me from their e-mail list as a

result, so I don't think I'll be there, but I would have loved to.

Ed

September 7, 2003

" planet which all seemed to help for a

while but not forever, I had my numbers done about 7

times over the years and one thing I noticed was that

if I was feeling good the vl would be down and if I

was feeling like shit the vl would be up. "

That's it exactly , man...your being apposite-informed...what

you know and feel to be true ( " such as : " I feel perfectly

healthy! " ) is the truth and yet you still feel persecuted...welcome

to '43...the 'doctors' have decided that centuries of traditions of

proven healings were wrong to discuss...REND THE 'VEIL'.

September 7, 2003

O.K! I believe that I just got the answer to the question I've been

asking you all along..you're

N O T S I C K A T A L L

There is no virus killing African citizens.

If I had extra money, I'd send it for food and REAL medicine...

( for D$@ Hie*$*r a $*... )

-

September 7, 2003

<There is no virus killing African citizens.

Why not come over and tell that to the 34 year old

ladie in my street that passed away two weeks ago, or

the 19 year old girl that worked for me until she

passed away 2 months ago, or another guy that works

for me, out of seven kids he is the only one

remaining, or maybe tell my wife about it, she's lost

both her parents and half her family, Yet her's and

many other's grandparents are in their 80's and

fighting fit.

<If I had extra money, I'd send it for food and

<REAL medicine...

like I said, " rich and poor " not everybody that is

dieing is destitue, even the healthy and wealthy.

, all I'm asking is, if it's not a virus that is

killing everyone, then what is it? is it some thyroid

gland disease?

Regards,

Tomy

September 7, 2003

Ed, thanks very much for your informative email, I

WILL study the information you gave, like I said, I'm

still on the fence.

Tomy

--- aidsisover@... wrote:

---------------------------------

In a message dated 9/7/2003 6:47:27 AM Eastern

Daylight Time,

sey_mour2003@... writes:

Ed has said that he knows of hundreds or thousands

that have been " cured " I wish that they would post on

this " cures for AIDS " site so that i could talk to them,

Tomy,

There are dozens of us in the back of 's book

and more at her

website. She has hundreds of letters from grateful

people and many can be found at

her web site. But more than that, we knew there

were already a million

Americans " with HIV " when we started testing the blood

supply in 1984, yet almost

20 years later 200,000 of them still don't know they

" have HIV. " How come

these people didn't get AIDS?

As to Africa, where about 20 million people a year

have been dying from

malnutrition and lack of proper sanitation for

decades, little has changed, except

for calling it AIDS. The clinical symptoms of PCM

(Protein-Calorie

Malnutrition) are indentical to the clinical symptoms

of AIDS. If there is truly

something new going on, WHO immunizations are probably

to blame. During the 2

decades of AIDS, there were less than a million total

victims in the US. During

that same period, about 400 million Africans died of

AIDS-like diseases.

Despite that, the population of Africa has grown by

274 million in that time.

(About the size of the total US population.) That's

the real problem -- not a

virus. That's the real threat to US national security

-- not HIV.

So, are you about the oldest person in Zambia? I

don't think so. I think

infant mortality is a major factor. 33 might be the

average age when you

average in all the " zeros " that didn't survive their

first year of life, but if

you've survived childhood and local wars and violence,

I would imagine your life

expectency would be at least double that.

For a white person living in the middle of Africa to

develop diarrhea is not

unusual. There are all sort of parasitic infections,

if it isn't dietary.

Even in America a growing population suffers from

irritable bowel syndrome as a

chronic lifetime condition. Others, who reject the

medical model, have

changed their diet and totally recovered. Dave Klein,

the publisher of Living

Nutrition (livingnutrition.com), is one. Nison

is another. He tells his

story at paulnison.com.

On top of whatever else was ailing you, having the

additional burden of the

AIDS curse, the stress and worry probably made things

worse.

Regarding the exploding t-cell, the virus doesn't

attack the t-cell, it the

other way around. Eventually t-cells, like all cells,

die and the particals of

what were formerly genomes and mitochondria that made

up the interior of the

cell go floating in the bloodstream and are called

viruses. If this phenomena

that your friends saw in vitro was going on in any

significant quantity in

living people, then why can't scientists find the

virus in people?

Disease is not an entity -- despite what the church of

medicine would have us

believe. It is a process. It is the way the body

takes care of itself.

Health is a multifactorial issue. Healthy acts always

produce health. You don't

have to beat anyone or anything. The only virus you

have to destroy is the

virus in your mind. Did you read about the recent

high court determination

that HIV has not been proven to cause AIDS? Maybe

that will cause you to rethink

your beliefs? High court rules HIV never proven to

cause AIDS

http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=74105 & group=webcast

Are you going to Global PWA conference in Uganda next

month? I applied for a

scholarship, but I think they've dropped me from their

e-mail list as a

result, so I don't think I'll be there, but I would

have loved to.

Ed

September 8, 2003

<<here it's not some distant cousin that was a drug addict that is dieng of

aids, it's

two or three members of your immidiate family>

Tomy...

Are two or three members of your immediate family dying? Or did you read this

in

the paper? Or do you know someone with dying family members? I know people

who've gone to Africa who said that your living conditions are mostly squallid,

that

one can barely find clean water in an " average African village " and that Maleria

and

TB are still running rampant there. I would assume that your newspaper is full

of

just as much bullshit as mine is. Newspapers aren't about fact most of the

time,

they're about sensationalism. Plus you have a bunch of stodgy, arrogant white

doctors telling you that you're most definitely sick and you need to take the

American AIDS drugs because after all, Americans really just want to help right?

I've never been there myself. But why is African AIDS so different from

American

AIDS? How come AIDS Africans have a better life expectancy than AIDS

Americans, even though we have 'cleaner conditions' and meds, and health

insurance, and access to good food? How come AIDS is said to be decimating

Africa and yet Africa's crude birth rate and death rate numbers have not shown

this

from 1950 on?

In fact, the death rate has gone down quite a bit in Africa. According to the

newspapers I read, Africa should be inhabited by nothing but AIDS orphaned

children by now. Yet Africa's economy is steadily climbing as they bring in

more

tourism and business.

<< I think to myself if there is no virus killing people then why do people on

this list

spend so much time juicing, jumping up and down on a rebounder, eating raw veges

ect, why dont they just eat what 99% of the population eats and live relativly

long

lives, like our parents did?>>

Not everyone does that Tomy. I live a relatively normal life. I don't juice or

rebound. However I do have health problems because of a severy impacted colon

that my allopathic doctors failed to do anything about four (maybe five) years

ago. I

have to eat a lot of cabbage and fiber and get my body back in balance. However

I

have dissident friends who don't do any of that. One of them tested positive

when

their marriage was on the rocks, their life was going downhill and he got

shingles.

Because he was bi, they told him to test and he was positive. Ever since then

though, once his stress settled and his life improved, the only time he was

horribly

sick was on the drugs for one year, where he couldn't sleep, eat, walk, do

anything.

He couldn't go to work he was so weak and he couldn't play with his kids. As

soon

as he stopped the meds and ever since, he smokes, has receptive anal sex,

smokes pot and lives the way he always has. He's as healthy as a horse. His

kids

get sick more than he does.

I have another friend who watched 35 of his friends and lovers die on those

drugs

while he remains 13 years later. He had full blown AIDS too back in San Fran,

when he was living the quintessential gay life style with the drugs, the

antibiotics,

the massive ammounts of receptive anal sex and the poppers. Now he's

wonderfully healthy. He's changed his life, but he doesn't eat raw foods and

juice

and all of that.

From all my reading as well as my own experience, along with everone I meet here

and abroad, I think that we test positive because we got sick. I don't think we

test

positive and we get sick. I know that you can make yourself sick with the

simple

mental stress of a positive test. I did. However, I had a severely impacted

colon,

was getting massive, horrible colds once every two months, and eventually got

Mono. I was under a horrible amount of stress and was burning the candle at

both

ends, working hard, playing hard. Am I surprised I tested positive? Hell no.

I think

as the Perth group does that when you get sick like this, your cellular immunity

goes

down and your antibody immunity goes up. Remember that when the blood is

undiluted, everyone tests positive.

Being HIV positive does mean that you most likely have health issues. It

certainly

doesn't mean you're going to die of AIDS. Well except you will because not that

we

test positive for HIV, any death is AIDS. I could get hit by a truck and it

would be

AIDS related. Now if I ever get sick, it's AIDS. My friends yeast infection is

a yeast

infection, but my yeast infection is AIDS. Whatever. So now, any African who

dies, had AIDS instead of what they would have had before the 1980's. Same

deaths, different definition.

Tomy, I think they're fighting disease too, there. But I don't think HIV,

whether it

exists or not has anything to do with it. I think that Malaria, TB, parasites,

bacteria,

lack of clean water and properly cleaned foods and a number of other things that

African's are suffering from have now been grouped up and classified as AIDS.

America is so empathetic and gosh, we really want to give you our expensive AIDS

meds because we're so wonderful and charitable. I think if we forget about the

AIDS meds and work on continuing to raise Africa's standard of living, those

deaths

would go away.

Remember one of the first questions Mbeki ever asked. If HIV is killing all

these

people... why is African AIDS so different from American AIDS?

If you think about it, most of the people who are healthy and over it wouldn't

be

posting to this list. They want to get on with their lives. I want to share

my knowledge,

as well as having a group of support from like minded people. We have many

people

who come to our HEAL group... but once they're convinced they're not going to

die, they

go live their lives. Not everyone wants the stress of being and active

dissident. It's tough

sometimes.

Caer

September 11, 2003

*********** Hi Caer, thanks for your input, sorry i

havn't replied earlier, i was in the bush for a few

days.

<<here it's not some distant cousin that was a drug

addict that is dieng of aids, it's

two or three members of your immidiate family>

Tomy...

Are two or three members of your immediate family

dying? Or did you read this in

the paper? Or do you know someone with dying family

members?

************my family, my wife's family, at least one

of my staff ask for time off to attend a funeral at

least every two months, my mates, everyone is

affected.

I know people

who've gone to Africa who said that your living

conditions are mostly squallid, that

one can barely find clean water in an " average African

village "

************ true, but not entierly true, I would say

that living in the townships is squallid but living in

the villages can be ok, most villages in this country

now have a caped borehole and pump from which to

obtain clean drinking water.

and that Maleria and

TB are still running rampant there.

************yes it is, the older people tell me that

TB is much worst now than when they were younger, is

it from higher density living? is it from a

compromised immune system? what came first the chicken

or the egg?

I would assume that your newspaper is full of

just as much bullshit as mine is. Newspapers aren't

about fact most of the time,

they're about sensationalism.

**********so true, I would say that our papers are

probably worse than yours as they are under more

goverment control, yes they are definatly full of bull

shit.

Plus you have a bunch of stodgy, arrogant white

doctors telling you that you're most definitely sick

and you need to take the

American AIDS drugs because after all, Americans

really just want to help right?

**********yep white ones, black ones, indian ones,

they're all here and yes MOST all believe that the

drugs are the only answer

I've never been there myself.

**********you should come, zambia is an amazing

country, full of very friendly, peacfull people, never

been to war with another country, never had a civil

war, very little racism and amazing wildlife.

But why is African AIDS so different from American

AIDS? How come AIDS Africans have a better life

expectancy than AIDS

Americans,

***********do they? I'm not so sure.

even though we have 'cleaner conditions' and meds, and

health

insurance, and access to good food? How come AIDS is

said to be decimating

Africa and yet Africa's crude birth rate and death

rate numbers have not shown this

from 1950 on?

In fact, the death rate has gone down quite a bit in

Africa. According to the

newspapers I read,

*************the newspapers? thought that they were

full of bull shit, I think that most of us, most

humans will ask the same question until we find somone

that tells us the answer that we want to hear.

Africa should be inhabited by nothing but AIDS

orphaned

children by now.

*************well it's not far off, I am associated

with an organization called C.I.N.D.I. they look after

orphans in extened families rather than in orphanages,

in the town of Kitwe ( not sure of the population, but

not huge ) they have 14,000 orphans registered on

their books, this is one of many organizations in

Kitwe, which is just one town in one country.

Every single family that I know is taking care of a

family member that has been orphaned.

Yet Africa's economy is steadily climbing as they

bring in more

tourism and business.

***********is it? here in Zambia inflation is running

at 25 to 30%, unemployment is around 80%. the average

family cannot buy as much each month as they could

last month.

<< I think to myself if there is no virus killing

people then why do people on this list

spend so much time juicing, jumping up and down on a

rebounder, eating raw veges

ect, why dont they just eat what 99% of the population

eats and live relativly long

lives, like our parents did?>>

Not everyone does that Tomy. I live a relatively

normal life. I don't juice or

rebound. However I do have health problems because of

a severy impacted colon

that my allopathic doctors failed to do anything about

four (maybe five) years ago. I

have to eat a lot of cabbage and fiber and get my body

back in balance. However I

have dissident friends who don't do any of that. One

of them tested positive when

their marriage was on the rocks, their life was going

downhill and he got shingles.

Because he was bi, they told him to test and he was

positive. Ever since then

though, once his stress settled and his life improved,

the only time he was horribly

sick was on the drugs for one year, where he couldn't

sleep, eat, walk, do anything.

He couldn't go to work he was so weak and he couldn't

play with his kids. As soon

as he stopped the meds and ever since, he smokes, has

receptive anal sex,

smokes pot and lives the way he always has. He's as

healthy as a horse. His kids

get sick more than he does.

I have another friend who watched 35 of his friends

and lovers die on those drugs

while he remains 13 years later. He had full blown

AIDS too back in San Fran,

when he was living the quintessential gay life style

with the drugs, the antibiotics,

the massive ammounts of receptive anal sex and the

poppers. Now he's

wonderfully healthy. He's changed his life, but he

doesn't eat raw foods and juice

and all of that.

*********thank you, I was getting the impression that

everyone was fighting something, thanks for making

that clear.

From all my reading as well as my own experience,

along with everone I meet here

and abroad, I think that we test positive because we

got sick. I don't think we test

positive and we get sick. I know that you can make

yourself sick with the simple

mental stress of a positive test. I did. However, I

had a severely impacted colon,

was getting massive, horrible colds once every two

months, and eventually got

Mono. I was under a horrible amount of stress and was

burning the candle at both

ends, working hard, playing hard. Am I surprised I

tested positive? Hell no. I think

as the Perth group does that when you get sick like

this, your cellular immunity goes

down and your antibody immunity goes up. Remember

that when the blood is

undiluted, everyone tests positive.

Being HIV positive does mean that you most likely have

health issues. It certainly

doesn't mean you're going to die of AIDS.

Well except you will because not that we

test positive for HIV, any death is AIDS. I could get

hit by a truck and it would be

AIDS related. Now if I ever get sick, it's AIDS. My

friends yeast infection is a yeast

infection, but my yeast infection is AIDS. Whatever.

So now, any African who

dies, had AIDS instead of what they would have had

before the 1980's. Same

deaths, different definition.

Tomy, I think they're fighting disease too, there.

But I don't think HIV, whether it

exists or not has anything to do with it. I think

that Malaria, TB, parasites, bacteria,

lack of clean water and properly cleaned foods and a

number of other things that

African's are suffering from have now been grouped up

and classified as AIDS.

America is so empathetic and gosh, we really want to

give you our expensive AIDS

meds because we're so wonderful and charitable. I

think if we forget about the

AIDS meds and work on continuing to raise Africa's

standard of living, those deaths

would go away.

Remember one of the first questions Mbeki ever asked.

If HIV is killing all these

people... why is African AIDS so different from

American AIDS?

If you think about it, most of the people who are

healthy and over it wouldn't be

posting to this list. They want to get on with their

lives. I want to share my knowledge,

as well as having a group of support from like minded

people. We have many people

who come to our HEAL group... but once they're

convinced they're not going to die, they

go live their lives. Not everyone wants the stress of

being and active dissident. It's tough

sometimes.

Caer

********Caer, thanks for chatting with me, I am

looking for answers, that's why I am asking questions,

sometimes what I read on the list and what I see here

seem so far apart, today while I'm driving around town

I'll probably get stuck behind two or three funeral

prosesions. when you first come to a place like this

you just hear about the death, then it invades your

working space, then it invades your friends and before

you know it, it is within your family. That's why I

was asking what I was asking,

Talk to you later,

Tomy

September 11, 2003

Hi Mike,

I usually don't say much in this forum unless i have something positive to

say. I read most of the messages. I read yours this morning about your

pneumonia. I had pneumonia at some point and very sick. What really helped me

to

get ride of it was Oregano. Oregano is very high and potent natural antibiotic

that most people in India use to treat TB. Oregano is sold in various

different forms. There is tea, Abstract and oil. The most potent form is oil.

Research it and you will find out. I used when I had pneumonia even for colds

and

it works fast

D

September 11, 2003

In a message dated 9/11/2003 3:15:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

mike705@... writes:

After several months and many hundreds of dollars I dumped her. She

failed to raise my t-cells through anything she was doing with me.

Why would anyone base any therapy on raising t-cells when everyone knows that

t-cells are not a measure of immune health? As long as you remain fixated on

the invalid medical markers, you can never recover you health.

By the way, I've heard from some people that rebounding tripled their t-cells

immediately. What happens is the activity releases lots of toxins that have

been trapped in and in between cells, which will cause your body to send out

more t-cells (assuming your thymus gland is still functional). This is usually

accompanied by some detox reactions, which your doctor will view as illness

and want to suppress by poisoning you again -- which is why you can't recover

your health until you reject your doctor and his church. When you've finished

your detox, you t-cells should go back down again. Counting t-cells is a

waste of time, money and blood and can only worsen your health.

Have you ever gone to a HEAL or an Alive and Well meeting?

Ed

PS-- Is this group moderated/censored. I can swear several of posts are not

making it.

September 11, 2003

Doug,

I, too, read all the messages and try to be positive. I kow that typing a

hassle, and getting your Emglish perfect takes some effort...but do you think it

might be a help to Mike if you were to elaborate upon your experience? For

example, how long did it take to recover from your pnneumonia, how did it start,

how did you use the Oregano ( and other things...did you take antibiotics )( you

could help, me , too here..), specifically in what form was it effective for you

personally. I've heard good things about Oregano Oil ( or is it Oil of

Oregano..?).

-

stalin2130@... wrote:

Hi Mike,

I usually don't say much in this forum unless i have something positive to

say. I read most of the messages. I read yours this morning about your

pneumonia. I had pneumonia at some point and very sick. What really helped me

to

get ride of it was Oregano. Oregano is very high and potent natural antibiotic

that most people in India use to treat TB. Oregano is sold in various

different forms. There is tea, Abstract and oil. The most potent form is oil.

Research it and you will find out. I used when I had pneumonia even for colds

and

it works fast

D

September 11, 2003

and group:

I am currently taking colloidal silver every day.Doug thanks for the

advise. I have also in the past taken oregano oil (potent stuff)! That and

colloidal silver and many other vitamins was part of my regimen I had worked out

with my health food gurus. I went to him after I was disappointed with my Nature

Path who basically just checked off on a list of supplements she wanted me to

take. She also just happened to have them in her storage room for me to BUY if I

didn't have them already.

After several months and many hundreds of dollars I dumped her. She failed

to raise my t-cells through anything she was doing with me.That's when I turned

to my Supposed friend who owns a health food store. Lou told me not to worry

that I didn't have to take that poison because there was natural things I could

take to remain healthy. He went to medical school at one point and quit because

he didn't want to tow the line with the drug companies. He went to work at his

families health food store. This store and himself are widely known not only in

the New York area but around the country.

He is brilliant and I thought he had the answers. However after spending

more of my hard earned money (400.00) a month on his protocol my t-cells still

declined and ultimately I became super sick with dementia ,pneumonia and

encephalitis. Sorry to rehash the same old story for those of you that have been

reading my posts. Anyway I'm going to wait one more day before I call my drug

doctor and ask her to move up my appointment.I can't procrastinate too long

because that's what got me into trouble last time..Good grief guys I just want

this nightmare to be over so I can move forward with my life. thanks for all the

support.....Mike

Re: Re: T-cells

Hi Mike,

I usually don't say much in this forum unless i have something positive to

say. I read most of the messages. I read yours this morning about your

pneumonia. I had pneumonia at some point and very sick. What really helped

me to

get ride of it was Oregano. Oregano is very high and potent natural

antibiotic

that most people in India use to treat TB. Oregano is sold in various

different forms. There is tea, Abstract and oil. The most potent form is

oil.

Research it and you will find out. I used when I had pneumonia even for colds

and

it works fast

D

September 11, 2003

Ed;

I have read Maggiories book and spoken to her personally on

several occasions. I have her home phone number! I have read Heal New York

website and spoken to one of the directors of Heal N.Y. I can only convey to you

Ed my experience. Over the years I have methodically and consistently tried to

pick apart this subject to find the truth. monitoring my t-cells I do not

believe has adversely affected my health. I only used the information as a

vehicle for my own research and to try and TRACK my health status. I applaud

what you say about the pharmacy nazis. I hate what our country's corrupt health

care system has become,but i must not let my own activism blind me to what is

going on in MY reality. This is why I am glued to this website and others like

it. To look for different opinions and to keep in touch with current thinking.

Will have to read your response later--going to World Trade center site to be

with my friends family who are remembering him there with a personnel

memorial.Talk to you soon.....mike