Re: (pt 2) Discrimination in the Catholic Church

January 4, 2001

, I am so proud of the way you are handling this. You are to be

commended on behavior in handling this difficult situation and your priest

should be condemned! This sounds like a rerun.......I am Catholic also, and

my son was never willingly accepted either. This is not easy to deal with

and I feel for you and your son.

Jackie, Mom to 13ds

January 4, 2001

In a message dated 1/3/01 11:02:22 PM Central Standard Time,

momtothree@... writes:

<< He says they were not discriminating against

...they just couldn't handle him. I guess we have different

difinitions of the word discrimination >>

Wow, . Want ya have to go through!!!! Sorry to hear this.

Hang in there,

Barbara

Jimmy 13

January 4, 2001

,

I am unfamiliar with the Catholic Church, but who is above the preist?

Sounds to me like you need to go further and let them know what is happening.

Like going to the school board when a school is slacking.

This man is a very poor representative of what a Christian leader should be

and that is so sad since the parishoners are supposed to look up to him and

follow his lead. Look how many people he is biasing against kids/people with

sp needs!!!

You are doing so good to keep fighting and pushing! I know what you mean

about it being easier to leave and go to another church, I have often felt

that way in my battles...but still, I feel there is a reason you are there

for this time. SOMEONE, who knows WHO is going to be reached by the example

you are leading. It's hard, but you are doing what you feel is best and

right so GO FOR IT!!

January 4, 2001

HI

This just breaks my heart.....is there NO where we can escape

discrimination????? The church I attend is wonderful, very contemporary with

a wonderful minister. All of Sara's old Sped teachers are members there and

have begged me to get Sara in Sunday school (a second grade class) Sara has

always gone to " big " church with me but it's time for her to be in a class

with her peers. The only thing that held me back was that I was soooo afraid

they would lose her....really lose her lololol I can see her telling them she

has to go to the bathroom and she starts her exploring lolol The teachers

assured me that Sara would have an aide and they would teach Sara to her

level soooooooo Im now pretty confident this is now the time.

I know this church's private day preschool was one of the first to accept a

little boy with DS into their program. The BOE sends a traveling Sped teacher

to this program to implement this little boys IEP.

Kathy mom to Sara 9

January 4, 2001

Sounds to me as though you raised the man's consciousness, . Now let

him do as he suggests and perhaps things will change for the better in your

parish. You done good, kid.

Hugs,

granny

---

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:

and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,

The mighty God, The everlasting Father,

The Prince of Peace. " -- The Prophet Isaiah

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

(pt 2) Discrimination in the Catholic Church

> Well, after I sent my post this morning I called the rectory and asked to

> have a meeting set up with the Priest, the CCE director and the lady who

> runs the Mothers Day Out program. The secretary told me the Priest was

> there, and did I want to talk to him. I said no thanks I would rather

talk

> to all of them together. Any day was fine with me, it just had to be a

> morning appt. She said ok and she would see when they could all be there.

> That was about 9:30 this morning. I didn't hear anything back so about

2:30

> I called again. The secretary said the Priest was supposed to call me.

> When I asked about the meeting she said he would set it up if I still

wanted

> it after talking to him.

>

> He finally called a few minutes after 4. He was defensive from the

start.

> He said he had been trying to call me all day and had gotten no answer,

when

> he finally got an answer he had the wrong number. When he couldn't get in

> touch with me he went and talked to the other two people I had wanted

there.

> So he got what he thought was the full story before he even spoke with me.

> He said they didn't have the resources to deal with a child with Special

> needs. He said that was out of contol and no one could handle him.

> What did I expect him to do?? Hire a teacher just for him?? And I said

> YES,,that is exactly what I expect you to do. He said they wouldn't do

> that. He was rude to me, speaking VERY loud and defensive. He had already

> talked to the other two that I wanted at the meeting and I am sure they

gave

> him an ear full. He asked why I didn't go into the CCE classes with him

if

> I wanted him there. And I told him that I would be a distraction to him

and

> he needed to know who was boss in that class without me there. He said

that

> it sounded like I had no control over him either and I couldn't control

him

> how did I expect anyone else to. This man was UNbelievable. I told him if

> had set up the meeting that I requested we could have discussed this

calmly

> and that I had suggestions to make to help it work. Like what?? he says.

I

> said like getting a kid that is confirming this year to go in with him as

an

> aid. Well that is a suggestion that might work, he says. Again I say if

he

> had just set up the meeting all this could have been worked out. THEN!!!!

> he says...why do you want a meeting...so you can bring your lawyer.....CAN

> YOU BELEIVE THAT!!!!!! Well by this time I lost all my calm and composure.

> I asked him if he knew how many babies with ds were aborted every year?

did

> he know how many were given up for adoption every year? I said that I sit

in

> church each Sunday and listen to him preach how wrong abortions is and yet

> when someone who needs help comes to them they say it is too much

work..too

> much trouble?? I also told him it took me along time to go back to church

> and bring my children with me and now I am thinking that I was right to

> stay away. The church is full of hypocits (sp?) And he says...don't judge

> the church by me...I am not the church!!! And I am like what??? you

> represent the church, you are not God but you are his representative, why

> would I not judge the church by what its Priest and Bishops do? I was so

> angry and hurt and yes those damn tears were flowing! That conversation

> ended with him saying he would see about getting an aid to go into the CCE

> class with . Fine I say and that is the end of that conversation.

>

> He called me back about 30 minutes later and said that he had talked to

the

> CCE director and she knows a retired school teacher who might be willing

to

> be his aid, if she didn't there are a couple of other people they can ask.

> I also told him how hurt I was that Mothers Day Out had asked him not to

> come back and that the things they were complaining about were things that

> he learned there. And that I didn't think that was fair to him. He said

I

> thought you didn't want him back in MDO. And I said I don't, I don't

trust

> them anymore, I can't be certain he will be safe there, BUT that I have no

> family here and I cherished my days off and it help me stay sane and be a

> better mother. He said maybe they could work out having someone there

with

> him one on one also.

>

> This Priest was rude, uncaring, no compassion, no understanding. Although

> the second conversation went better than the first one and even though he

is

> trying to make it work for us...I have lost all respect for him. I told

him

> at one point that I was going to call the Bishop and the Catholic

> publication for our area and let them know that they discriminate against

> children with disabilities. He says they were not discriminating against

> ...they just couldn't handle him. I guess we have different

> difinitions of the word discrimination. And in the second call he told me

to

> call the Bishop and write to the paper, maybe that would help more

families

> and may also get the church moving on how to include kids that are

> considered disabled. He got really upset when I told him that if we

> couldn't work things out I was going to pull from the First

Communion

> class because I was not going to attend a church that did not accept my

son.

>

> I feel like if they get the aid for CCE that I need to stay at this

church,

> even if it is just till makes her First Communion. I am afraid if I

> leave now that the next parents who demand acceptance for their child will

> have even more trouble because I will have asked for something and then

left

> anyway.

>

> So anyway...that is where it stands now. I have cried all evening, partly

> because I know this is just the beginning and partly because I am so hurt,

> for me and for . And I know that most of this must sound like

rambling

> but everything that was said is all mixed up in my head now. Thanks to

all

> who responded to my original post. I will let you all know how it turns

out.

>

January 4, 2001

Hello ,

I understand well how hurtful this events must have been for you, but

I think you have acted very well. That priest might have learned a lot

from you and it seems that the next time he might think before acting

again like that.

Greetings from Germany

Anke with Elias (3 DS) and two teenagers

http://www.familiew.de/

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: " Robicheaux " <momtothree@...>

An: " " <egroups>

Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. Januar 2001 06:03

Betreff: (pt 2) Discrimination in the Catholic Church

| Well, after I sent my post this morning I called the rectory and

asked to

| have a meeting set up with the Priest, the CCE director and the lady

who

| runs the Mothers Day Out program. The secretary told me the Priest

was

| there, and did I want to talk to him. I said no thanks I would

rather talk

| to all of them together. Any day was fine with me, it just had to

be a

| morning appt. She said ok and she would see when they could all be

there.

| That was about 9:30 this morning. I didn't hear anything back so

about 2:30

| I called again. The secretary said the Priest was supposed to call

me.

| When I asked about the meeting she said he would set it up if I

still wanted

| it after talking to him.

|

| He finally called a few minutes after 4. He was defensive from the

start.

| He said he had been trying to call me all day and had gotten no

answer, when

| he finally got an answer he had the wrong number. When he couldn't

get in

| touch with me he went and talked to the other two people I had

wanted there.

| So he got what he thought was the full story before he even spoke

with me.

| He said they didn't have the resources to deal with a child with

Special

| needs. He said that was out of contol and no one could handle

him.

| What did I expect him to do?? Hire a teacher just for him?? And I

said

| YES,,that is exactly what I expect you to do. He said they wouldn't

do

| that. He was rude to me, speaking VERY loud and defensive. He had

already

| talked to the other two that I wanted at the meeting and I am sure

they gave

| him an ear full. He asked why I didn't go into the CCE classes with

him if

| I wanted him there. And I told him that I would be a distraction to

him and

| he needed to know who was boss in that class without me there. He

said that

| it sounded like I had no control over him either and I couldn't

control him

| how did I expect anyone else to. This man was UNbelievable. I told

him if

| had set up the meeting that I requested we could have discussed this

calmly

| and that I had suggestions to make to help it work. Like what?? he

says. I

| said like getting a kid that is confirming this year to go in with

him as an

| aid. Well that is a suggestion that might work, he says. Again I

say if he

| had just set up the meeting all this could have been worked out.

THEN!!!!

| he says...why do you want a meeting...so you can bring your

lawyer.....CAN

| YOU BELEIVE THAT!!!!!! Well by this time I lost all my calm and

composure.

| I asked him if he knew how many babies with ds were aborted every

year? did

| he know how many were given up for adoption every year? I said that

I sit in

| church each Sunday and listen to him preach how wrong abortions is

and yet

| when someone who needs help comes to them they say it is too much

work..too

| much trouble?? I also told him it took me along time to go back to

church

| and bring my children with me and now I am thinking that I was

right to

| stay away. The church is full of hypocits (sp?) And he says...don't

judge

| the church by me...I am not the church!!! And I am like what??? you

| represent the church, you are not God but you are his

representative, why

| would I not judge the church by what its Priest and Bishops do? I

was so

| angry and hurt and yes those damn tears were flowing! That

conversation

| ended with him saying he would see about getting an aid to go into

the CCE

| class with . Fine I say and that is the end of that

conversation.

|

| He called me back about 30 minutes later and said that he had talked

to the

| CCE director and she knows a retired school teacher who might be

willing to

| be his aid, if she didn't there are a couple of other people they

can ask.

| I also told him how hurt I was that Mothers Day Out had asked him

not to

| come back and that the things they were complaining about were

things that

| he learned there. And that I didn't think that was fair to him. He

said I

| thought you didn't want him back in MDO. And I said I don't, I

don't trust

| them anymore, I can't be certain he will be safe there, BUT that I

have no

| family here and I cherished my days off and it help me stay sane and

be a

| better mother. He said maybe they could work out having someone

there with

| him one on one also.

|

| This Priest was rude, uncaring, no compassion, no understanding.

Although

| the second conversation went better than the first one and even

though he is

| trying to make it work for us...I have lost all respect for him. I

told him

| at one point that I was going to call the Bishop and the Catholic

| publication for our area and let them know that they discriminate

against

| children with disabilities. He says they were not discriminating

against

| ...they just couldn't handle him. I guess we have different

| difinitions of the word discrimination. And in the second call he

told me to

| call the Bishop and write to the paper, maybe that would help more

families

| and may also get the church moving on how to include kids that are

| considered disabled. He got really upset when I told him that if we

| couldn't work things out I was going to pull from the First

Communion

| class because I was not going to attend a church that did not accept

my son.

|

| I feel like if they get the aid for CCE that I need to stay at this

church,

| even if it is just till makes her First Communion. I am

afraid if I

| leave now that the next parents who demand acceptance for their

child will

| have even more trouble because I will have asked for something and

then left

| anyway.

|

| So anyway...that is where it stands now. I have cried all evening,

partly

| because I know this is just the beginning and partly because I am so

hurt,

| for me and for . And I know that most of this must sound like

rambling

| but everything that was said is all mixed up in my head now. Thanks

to all

| who responded to my original post. I will let you all know how it

turns out.

|

January 4, 2001

Dear ,

I have tears in my eyes as I read your posts on this subject.... I agree

with all you have said and done.... you are doing the right things..... I

have 2 other suggestions for you.....

In regards to MDO.... since you have no family in the area.... have you

considered/does your state offer a RESPITE program? In Illinois, RESPITE is

a program for parents of handicapped children that offers FREE babysitting

so you can get out (and get a " respite " from the stresses of being a parent

of special needs child)... the sitters are all carefully screened and

background checked.....

My other suggestion is for you to join a very small list at

called niceforumegroups

I believe NICE stands for National Inclusive Catholic Education..... the

list gets very little traffic but has some good archives and supports for

both CCD and Catholic schooling of special needs children of all

abilities..... they also have a neat website at

http://www.udayton.edu/~ipi/

or

http://www.udayton.edu/~ipi/nice/index.php3

(I bookmarked both links)

Also a lady named Pat is a wonderful resource and works at University

of Dayton -

>Pat

>Network of Inclusive Catholic Educators

>937-229-4356

she is on the list and will communicate with you privately if you need....

she knows of others in our situation and has referred me to a mother of a

child with DS who has successfully included him in CCD/Catholic Ed.....

She/they also have a quarterly newsletter that I finally subscribed to - it

is only $15 per year and looks to have some good info.... she may also send

you a great packet of info if you ask her (for free).... you can tell her I

sent you.....

Also check out Gaffney's website.... she is a young adult with DS who

went all the way through Catholic schools and high school.....

http://www.karengaffneyfoundation.com/mainpage.htm

And here are 2 other links I have in my favorites under Catholic Ed......

http://www.ncea.org/

http://www.ncea.org/Boards/index.htm

Good Luck and be strong..... know that you are helping to pave the way for

many others..... and I STRONGLY agree with your attitudes/opinions about

abortion..... How hypocritical is it of them to preach the anti-abortion

message in one breath and then turn our angels away in the next......

{{{{hugs}}}}

Shelby :-) - Chicago - ICQ 39583211

(Mother of Caitlin 10, Kelsey 8, Jimmy 6, Colleen 4 (DS), 2.)

(pt 2) Discrimination in the Catholic Church

> Well, after I sent my post this morning I called the rectory and asked to

> have a meeting set up with the Priest, the CCE director and the lady who

> runs the Mothers Day Out program.

<snip>

January 5, 2001

I am faced with a dilema that I don't know whether you could call it

discrimination -

is (7 DS) is in a " regular " 1st grade with her own 1:1 aide. We started

her in our church's CCD program (there is no catholic school affiliated with

the church) and put her in the church's SPIRIT program which is for special

needs kids. Once she was in the class, I found it that the range of ages was

from 1st grade (only is) to 9th grade with most of the children being on

the older side. For next year, I want to put her in a regular CCD class, but

the educators want me to be the aide in the class with is. This will not

work because is will not behave with me in the class. Also, I wouldn't

know which year (1st or 2nd grade) to place her in. The 2nd graders will be

preparing for 1st Communion, and I don't think she's ready for that. I could

probably put her in the kindergarten program with my son, but that seems like

a far jump for her age group. Am I being selfish for not wanting her to stay

in the SPIRIT program? The seemed insulted when I said I wanted to pull her

out. Any ideas?

Thanks.

January 5, 2001

,

I think the hardest part about having a child with a disability is when

people discriminate against them. Before ADA I was refused admittance at a

daycare center for my daughter who is now 13. First and foremost

please know that everyone on the list is here to listen and offer whatever we

can to help.

Try to be strong. Decide first what you want: in CCD and in MDO.

Then go for it! They cannot discriminate and the Catholic Church actually

has an office for people with disabilities (they have a whole book on sign

language in the church!). You need to feel comfortable and then help them be

comfortable. It helps all of us if we educate others in a positive manner.

I have found the catholic church very inflexible and have found the Lutheran

church much more open We recently moved to CA and the pastor actually asked

me if I was going to put Jen in confirmation classes. has been an

acolyte for several years and made her communion. We modified what was

expected of her for her communion because she doesn't talk and the cognitive

abilities were of course different. She understands about God and has

accepted him and that is the point.

I have learned through my own experience that the calmer I can be the more

others will listen. I use to cry when I was upset now I think about what I

want the end result to be and how I can go about obtaining that. First and

foremost keep in mind what you want for . And feel good knowing that

every step you make for him will also make it easier for others coming behind

you. We shouldn't have to go thru this but we are truly stronger for it.

I am always here if you want to e-mail me separately. I know it helps just

to vent and hear from others. My thoughts and orators are with you.

Kathy Everett

January 5, 2001

I wouldn't want her in the sp needs program. I guess I would wonder what she

is getting out of it really. But, I guess we need to remember, at least in

our church, that most of the teachers are just parents volunteering their

time, and how many of them have the experience....even if they have the

desire?

We have Maverick in Sunday school, but my husband and I take turns going to

class with him. We accomodate his work and he doesn't learn all that the

other kids learn and forget. He has had his first communion. He and his

brother took the class together and they ask that parents take the class

with them. Then, they ask that the parents feel that the children know what

is going on and make the decision. We felt that Mav was ready.

I am head of the prayer chain at our church. One day Mav overheard me making

the calls and asked me what had happened. When I told him about a little girl

that got hurt, he said, " Oh, I will pray to Jesus in my heart. "

I feel that it is very important and very needed for our kids to participate

all they can in church and we need to be the teachers and leaders in this

area.

January 5, 2001

Too bad if they felt insulted. YOU know what is best for your daughter. I

do think a younger group would be a good idea. has always been in a

little younger group. He is two years behind in CCD. There are also

special considerations for communion for our kids. The US Bishops set the

standards. I would also ask if perhaps a teen could be the aide. We have

done that.

Elaine Mom to 17 and 14 (DS)

Re: (pt 2) Discrimination in the Catholic Church

> I am faced with a dilema that I don't know whether you could call it

> discrimination -

> is (7 DS) is in a " regular " 1st grade with her own 1:1 aide. We

started

> her in our church's CCD program (there is no catholic school affiliated

with

> the church) and put her in the church's SPIRIT program which is for

special

> needs kids. Once she was in the class, I found it that the range of ages

was

> from 1st grade (only is) to 9th grade with most of the children being

on

> the older side. For next year, I want to put her in a regular CCD class,

but

> the educators want me to be the aide in the class with is. This will

not

> work because is will not behave with me in the class. Also, I

wouldn't

> know which year (1st or 2nd grade) to place her in. The 2nd graders will

be

> preparing for 1st Communion, and I don't think she's ready for that. I

could

> probably put her in the kindergarten program with my son, but that seems

like

> a far jump for her age group. Am I being selfish for not wanting her to

stay

> in the SPIRIT program? The seemed insulted when I said I wanted to pull

her

> out. Any ideas?

> Thanks.

>

January 6, 2001

I was discussing with tims head teacher the lessons he could best miss to do

his IEP 1:1 pull out work and I said that RE would be one I don't mind him

missing. The head agreed becoz she said he wouldn't have any real concept

of religion anyway. I replied that he didn't need RE becoz he gets that at

home and has a far better understanding of religion, at least christianity,

than most of his peers! The other night I put him to bed asleep. He woke

up a couple of minutes later and started to cry, after a while he was

sobbing so I went up and asked him what was wrong, " need pray " he said, so

we prayed, he lay down and went to sleep! I wouldn't claim he knows why he

prays other than it is a comfort and a habit to him, but he knows who he

prays to and that is a start.

Sue Wong

> I am head of the prayer chain at our church. One day Mav overheard me

making

> the calls and asked me what had happened. When I told him about a little

girl

> that got hurt, he said, " Oh, I will pray to Jesus in my heart. "

> I feel that it is very important and very needed for our kids to

participate

> all they can in church and we need to be the teachers and leaders in this

> area.

>

January 6, 2001

You are so right. I have always believed that was born knowing

things the rest of us may never learn. When he was about 4 years old he

looked up at the cross in our church (Methodist, there is no figure on the

cross) and said " Ouch! " . I asked his Sunday School teacher if they had

discussed it and she said not. But he knew. Another time some years ago we

had a squirrel get into the transformer on a pole and our electricity went

off, the second time it happened in a week or two. He was complaining and I

told him he'd have to talk to God about it. I heard him talking quietly and

something about 2 squirrels and a little later asked him if he got an answer.

He said, " Yes " and I asked what it was. He said, " Sorry " . I told our

minister about it and he said he wished more people understood that.

You are right. Tim understands. Jessie

January 7, 2001

and are very religious as well, Sue. I think our kids are

closer to G*d than people give them credit. Just naturally closer.

granny

---

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:

and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,

The mighty God, The everlasting Father,

The Prince of Peace. " -- The Prophet Isaiah

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

Re: (pt 2) Discrimination in the Catholic Church

> I was discussing with tims head teacher the lessons he could best miss to

do

> his IEP 1:1 pull out work and I said that RE would be one I don't mind him

> missing. The head agreed becoz she said he wouldn't have any real concept

> of religion anyway. I replied that he didn't need RE becoz he gets that

at

> home and has a far better understanding of religion, at least

christianity,

> than most of his peers! The other night I put him to bed asleep. He woke

> up a couple of minutes later and started to cry, after a while he was

> sobbing so I went up and asked him what was wrong, " need pray " he said, so

> we prayed, he lay down and went to sleep! I wouldn't claim he knows why

he

> prays other than it is a comfort and a habit to him, but he knows who he

> prays to and that is a start.

>

> Sue Wong

>

> > I am head of the prayer chain at our church. One day Mav overheard me

> making

> > the calls and asked me what had happened. When I told him about a little

> girl

> > that got hurt, he said, " Oh, I will pray to Jesus in my heart. "

> > I feel that it is very important and very needed for our kids to

> participate

> > all they can in church and we need to be the teachers and leaders in

this

> > area.

> >

January 7, 2001

In a message dated 1/7/2001 9:40:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Bonoratoe001@... writes:

<< Priests (IMHO) don't live in the real world,

and don't notice discrimination even when it hits them in the face. >>

Not the Priest on our home town. Honestly, he was wonderful and 's

baptism was awesome!! His homily was about making wine, how branches are

pruned to get the best grapes. Sometimes a branch grows that is not intended

to and it can make the best wine of all.

Sorry you had a bad experience Elaine.

January 7, 2001

We had a priest just like this and unfortunately the Bishop was 92 and

refused to retire or listen to anyone who had difficulties with this man.

He was rude, uncaring and defensive. He almost encouraged discrimination in

the parish against . Priests (IMHO) don't live in the real world,

and don't notice discrimination even when it hits them in the face.

I think Granny is right. You did a good job bringing the problem to

their attention.

Elaine

(pt 2) Discrimination in the Catholic Church

>

> > Well, after I sent my post this morning I called the rectory and asked

to

> > have a meeting set up with the Priest, the CCE director and the lady who

> > runs the Mothers Day Out program. The secretary told me the Priest was

> > there, and did I want to talk to him. I said no thanks I would rather

> talk

> > to all of them together. Any day was fine with me, it just had to be a

> > morning appt. She said ok and she would see when they could all be

there.

> > That was about 9:30 this morning. I didn't hear anything back so about

> 2:30

> > I called again. The secretary said the Priest was supposed to call me.

> > When I asked about the meeting she said he would set it up if I still

> wanted

> > it after talking to him.

> >

> > He finally called a few minutes after 4. He was defensive from the

> start.

> > He said he had been trying to call me all day and had gotten no answer,

> when

> > he finally got an answer he had the wrong number. When he couldn't get

in

> > touch with me he went and talked to the other two people I had wanted

> there.

> > So he got what he thought was the full story before he even spoke with

me.

> > He said they didn't have the resources to deal with a child with Special

> > needs. He said that was out of contol and no one could handle

him.

> > What did I expect him to do?? Hire a teacher just for him?? And I said

> > YES,,that is exactly what I expect you to do. He said they wouldn't do

> > that. He was rude to me, speaking VERY loud and defensive. He had

already

> > talked to the other two that I wanted at the meeting and I am sure they

> gave

> > him an ear full. He asked why I didn't go into the CCE classes with him

> if

> > I wanted him there. And I told him that I would be a distraction to him

> and

> > he needed to know who was boss in that class without me there. He said

> that

> > it sounded like I had no control over him either and I couldn't control

> him

> > how did I expect anyone else to. This man was UNbelievable. I told him

if

> > had set up the meeting that I requested we could have discussed this

> calmly

> > and that I had suggestions to make to help it work. Like what?? he

says.

> I

> > said like getting a kid that is confirming this year to go in with him

as

> an

> > aid. Well that is a suggestion that might work, he says. Again I say if

> he

> > had just set up the meeting all this could have been worked out.

THEN!!!!

> > he says...why do you want a meeting...so you can bring your

lawyer.....CAN

> > YOU BELEIVE THAT!!!!!! Well by this time I lost all my calm and

composure.

> > I asked him if he knew how many babies with ds were aborted every year?

> did

> > he know how many were given up for adoption every year? I said that I

sit

> in

> > church each Sunday and listen to him preach how wrong abortions is and

yet

> > when someone who needs help comes to them they say it is too much

> work..too

> > much trouble?? I also told him it took me along time to go back to

church

> > and bring my children with me and now I am thinking that I was right to

> > stay away. The church is full of hypocits (sp?) And he says...don't

judge

> > the church by me...I am not the church!!! And I am like what??? you

> > represent the church, you are not God but you are his representative,

why

> > would I not judge the church by what its Priest and Bishops do? I was

so

> > angry and hurt and yes those damn tears were flowing! That conversation

> > ended with him saying he would see about getting an aid to go into the

CCE

> > class with . Fine I say and that is the end of that conversation.

> >

> > He called me back about 30 minutes later and said that he had talked to

> the

> > CCE director and she knows a retired school teacher who might be willing

> to

> > be his aid, if she didn't there are a couple of other people they can

ask.

> > I also told him how hurt I was that Mothers Day Out had asked him not to

> > come back and that the things they were complaining about were things

that

> > he learned there. And that I didn't think that was fair to him. He

said

> I

> > thought you didn't want him back in MDO. And I said I don't, I don't

> trust

> > them anymore, I can't be certain he will be safe there, BUT that I have

no

> > family here and I cherished my days off and it help me stay sane and be

a

> > better mother. He said maybe they could work out having someone there

> with

> > him one on one also.

> >

> > This Priest was rude, uncaring, no compassion, no understanding.

Although

> > the second conversation went better than the first one and even though

he

> is

> > trying to make it work for us...I have lost all respect for him. I told

> him

> > at one point that I was going to call the Bishop and the Catholic

> > publication for our area and let them know that they discriminate

against

> > children with disabilities. He says they were not discriminating

against

> > ...they just couldn't handle him. I guess we have different

> > difinitions of the word discrimination. And in the second call he told

me

> to

> > call the Bishop and write to the paper, maybe that would help more

> families

> > and may also get the church moving on how to include kids that are

> > considered disabled. He got really upset when I told him that if we

> > couldn't work things out I was going to pull from the First

> Communion

> > class because I was not going to attend a church that did not accept my

> son.

> >

> > I feel like if they get the aid for CCE that I need to stay at this

> church,

> > even if it is just till makes her First Communion. I am afraid if

I

> > leave now that the next parents who demand acceptance for their child

will

> > have even more trouble because I will have asked for something and then

> left

> > anyway.

> >

> > So anyway...that is where it stands now. I have cried all evening,

partly

> > because I know this is just the beginning and partly because I am so

hurt,

> > for me and for . And I know that most of this must sound like

> rambling

> > but everything that was said is all mixed up in my head now. Thanks to

> all

> > who responded to my original post. I will let you all know how it turns

> out.

> >

January 8, 2001

Re: (pt 2) Discrimination in the Catholic Church

> In a message dated 1/7/2001 9:40:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> Bonoratoe001@... writes:

>

> << Priests (IMHO) don't live in the real world,

> and don't notice discrimination even when it hits them in the face. >>

>

> Not the Priest on our home town. Honestly, he was wonderful and 's

> baptism was awesome!! His homily was about making wine, how branches are

> pruned to get the best grapes. Sometimes a branch grows that is not

intended

> to and it can make the best wine of all.

>

> Sorry you had a bad experience Elaine.

>

Neither are the priests on my island! Matter of fact, I've met very few

priests who weren't totally sympathetic with families with handicapped

members. Matter of fact, there seems to be a smaller percentage of priests

so blind than the national average of laymen. Our diocese is very active in

including the handicapped in everything.

granny

---

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:

and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,

The mighty God, The everlasting Father,

The Prince of Peace. " -- The Prophet Isaiah

http://home.earthlink.net/~bspyle

January 8, 2001

----- Original Message -----

From: <c1ndysue1@...>

> Not the Priest on our home town. Honestly, he was wonderful and 's

> baptism was awesome!!

' baptism was awesome too! It was performed during a school Mass so

that 3 of his siblings would be there with all of their friends, the entire

Catholic school, grades K through 8. was the only child baptized

and was therefore the center of attention. What better way to welcome a

child into the faith and the community.... We requested his baptism before

heart surgery and they suggested a school Mass (baptisms are rarely done

separately anymore, much less at a school Mass).

Sharon

January 8, 2001

,

I have to agree with you. Our priest has been wonderful and nothing but

excepting of and any one else who is disabled. In fact last year a

couple moms in our parish tried to get a little boy who is autistic

kicked out of RE and the director and the priest told them that EVERYONE

BELONGED to the Kingdom of God and that if they didn't like it then maybe

they should take it up with God themselves. Father Dale told this to the

parish in his sermon on a Sunday and made sure that every one in the

church understood that Jesus has called each of us to love every one and

not just some. Our RE program is Faith First and the program is totally

inclusive. Any child who has a special need is accommodated in any way

that helps them learn best. I taught RE for three years and I had a

little girl with CP and she could only communicate with a language board,

she had a church provided aide and was able to participate fully in the

class. I also work in our church's childrens center where we acept all

children and some how God seems to always provides some wonderful person

whocan help with all the children. Also in our parish one of our deacons

has a grown son who has ds and we have five other families who have

children with ds. I feel very sad for all of you on this list who have

been hurt by the church and I pray that you will remember that the church

is made up of very imperfect people and not leave because Jesus the head

of the church loves you. I will pray for all of you who have been hurt

and for the people in the church who have hurt you, too. Thanks for

listening .

Laurie mom to 16 months and four other little girls

________________________________________________________________

GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

January 8, 2001

Judi,

I think when we are talking about Sunday school and such we also have to

remember that these people are volunteers. If they were paid employees we

could be a little more demanding. is 13 yo and has always been in

Sunday School and is now in confirmation classes. In Sunday school she was

able to color and draw a lot. When I had the lessons ahead of time I would

modify the material for her. She doesn't handle or stay focused on long

lectures. She does much better if she can copy, trace, cut and paste, etc.

I am doing the same thing for the pastor with our confirmation classes.

While he was readily opened to her, he just wasn't sure what to do. I looked

at the material and helped him with what I thought was important for her to

get out of it. And I am with some of the others who have added their

comments here: we usually have to help educate others and that's OK. Plus I

know she is getting something out of it because she, too wants to say her

prayers at meals and bedtime (we sign them cause she is nonverbal). And she

loves acolyting and going to communion. She knows about God and accepts him

and for that I am happy. If I can be of any help, let me know. Kathy

January 8, 2001

This is the reason I have kept away from religion or CCD classes. It is

WAY to abstract for him and I, personally, don't have the time to work on

inclusion for a CCD class that meets once every two weeks. This is just my

opinion, but I think it is too abstract for any child although I do send my

other two sons to CCD classes (which I still try to figure out

why......pressure from my mother, I believe!)

A neighborhood Lutheran church has formed a religion class for special needs

kids, which we have attended once. I do appreciate the effort, but the

pastor teaches the class and I don't believe he understands how watered down

instruction must be. The very first class he tried to teach the ten

commandments!!! Come on! Like will understand adultery! I am hesitant

to return because my gut tells me, have religion taught to my children when

they are old enough and mature enough to make the decision on their own.

Religion, like deciding on inclusion or life skills classrooms, is a personal

matter and you do what you feel is right for your child. I just know I am

not motivated to deal with it like I am with 's general education. It's

an uphill battle in my Catholic church..... which I don't feel is that

important for . He is going to heaven no matter what.

Jackie, Mom to 13ds

January 8, 2001

We have had the experience of working with two different pastors since Jess

was born. The first, who only knew her when she was under five yrs. was

great, very accepting and inclusive. The current pastor is a little older

and sometimes you can see him having problems knowing just what to do.

However, he is planning on proceeding with confirmation class next year

(although I think he plans to wing it! ;o)) and he himself is very

accepting--although I wish we could teach him not to hug her! (We went

through the school's concern that she is too demonstrative with others and

asked him to shake hands instead, so now they shake hands and then hug!--oh,

well). In light of this thread, I noticed that yesterday the children's

sermon had a piece about " differences " and how they are percieved, and

although he didn't say anything about Jess being different, he did ask her a

question, which kind of drew attention to her and her having ds.

Where we are starting to have concerns is with Sunday school--church members

volunteer to teach the classes, and they don't always have a clue as to what

to do with Jess. Not to sound critical, but usually they do a LOT of

talking about God and religion that is pretty abstract and hard for her to

grasp--anybody else dealing with that?

Judi