Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 But seat belts DON'T hurt people by themselves! It takes a significant intervening cause like a CAR CRASH for a seat belt to injure people! Vaccines on the other hand do not require an intervening trauma to hurt people. BIG difference I think!! christine > > I didn't think that was a stupid analogy at all. He was saying that > everything, even things to protect us, come with risk. In fact, the > analogy is particularly good because, like vaccines, seat belt use is > mandatory in many places, in the US, at least. > > Unfortunately for him, the same argument can be used against vaccines, > that there is always risk in contracting disease, but most people will > not die. -Angie > > > > > Ok, maybe we can keep an easily accessible thread just for stupid > > things people say about vaccines. I'm gonna try to keep track on my > > own. Peanuts, milk, bath tubs, and now seatbelts! It's great comedy. > > > > Dan > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 I personally see a huge difference between asking for help (information) for her off list debate and forwarding something verbatim from one list to another.... Totten wrote: > > Is this not allowed? I'm not the person who did it, but I didn't know > about this rule. I thought it was a good idea for her to solicit help > in a debate she was having from people who could give her more info. It > is something I would do, and I didn't have a problem with her > forwarding my responses; in fact, I was glad she did it. > > -Angie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 you don't share posts from this list on other lists. That is netiquette and rules of groups and others. You can ask for help, but don't share posts. (except articles of course can be shared) Permission needs to be asked for first, for anything else Sheri At 06:10 PM 3/7/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Is this not allowed? I'm not the person who did it, but I didn't know >about this rule. I thought it was a good idea for her to solicit help >in a debate she was having from people who could give her more info. It >is something I would do, and I didn't have a problem with her >forwarding my responses; in fact, I was glad she did it. > >-Angie > >On Monday, March 5, 2007, at 01:09 AM, mum2mishka wrote: > >> I haven't responded on this thread and am not going to, but I have to >> say >> that what does concern me is that if we go back to where it all >> started, we >> can see that someone has breached netiquette by forwarding posts from >> this >> list to someone who is NOT on this list. We have this big debate going >> on >> here with one participant not even a list member, let alone >> sympathetic to >> the general tone of the list. Given the tightness of this list, I am >> surprised that this hasn't been commented on by the list owner and >> moderators. >> >> Not impressed.... >> >> Sue > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 That's true. On Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 02:18 AM, christine wrote: > But seat belts DON'T hurt people by themselves! It takes a > significant intervening cause like a CAR CRASH for a seat belt to > injure people! > Vaccines on the other hand do not require an intervening trauma to > hurt people. BIG difference I think!! > christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 So, wait, CAN you share posts if the poster says it's OK? Or is it not OK even then? Sorry, just need to clarify. -Angie On Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 06:36 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote: > you don't share posts from this list on other lists. That is netiquette > and rules of groups and others. > You can ask for help, but don't share posts. (except articles of > course can > be shared) > Permission needs to be asked for first, for anything else > > Sheri > > At 06:10 PM 3/7/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >Is this not allowed? I'm not the person who did it, but I didn't know > >about this rule. I thought it was a good idea for her to solicit help > >in a debate she was having from people who could give her more info. > It > >is something I would do, and I didn't have a problem with her > >forwarding my responses; in fact, I was glad she did it. > > > >-Angie > > > >On Monday, March 5, 2007, at 01:09 AM, mum2mishka wrote: > > > >> I haven't responded on this thread and am not going to, but I have > to > >> say > >> that what does concern me is that if we go back to where it all > >> started, we > >> can see that someone has breached netiquette by forwarding posts > from > >> this > >> list to someone who is NOT on this list. We have this big debate > going > >> on > >> here with one participant not even a list member, let alone > >> sympathetic to > >> the general tone of the list. Given the tightness of this list, I am > >> surprised that this hasn't been commented on by the list owner and > >> moderators. > >> > >> Not impressed.... > >> > >> Sue > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 certainly if the poster says its ok Sheri At 01:10 PM 3/8/2007 -0500, you wrote: >So, wait, CAN you share posts if the poster says it's OK? Or is it not >OK even then? Sorry, just need to clarify. -Angie > >On Thursday, March 8, 2007, at 06:36 AM, Sheri Nakken wrote: > >> you don't share posts from this list on other lists. That is netiquette >> and rules of groups and others. >> You can ask for help, but don't share posts. (except articles of >> course can >> be shared) >> Permission needs to be asked for first, for anything else >> >> Sheri >> >> At 06:10 PM 3/7/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> >Is this not allowed? I'm not the person who did it, but I didn't know >> >about this rule. I thought it was a good idea for her to solicit help >> >in a debate she was having from people who could give her more info. >> It >> >is something I would do, and I didn't have a problem with her >> >forwarding my responses; in fact, I was glad she did it. >> > >> >-Angie >> > >> >On Monday, March 5, 2007, at 01:09 AM, mum2mishka wrote: >> > >> >> I haven't responded on this thread and am not going to, but I have >> to >> >> say >> >> that what does concern me is that if we go back to where it all >> >> started, we >> >> can see that someone has breached netiquette by forwarding posts >> from >> >> this >> >> list to someone who is NOT on this list. We have this big debate >> going >> >> on >> >> here with one participant not even a list member, let alone >> >> sympathetic to >> >> the general tone of the list. Given the tightness of this list, I am >> >> surprised that this hasn't been commented on by the list owner and >> >> moderators. >> >> >> >> Not impressed.... >> >> >> >> Sue >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 GEORGE CARLIN (His wife recently died..) Isn't it amazing that Carlin - gross and mouthy comedian of the 70's and 80's - could write something so very eloquent...and so very appropriate? A wonderful Message by Carlin: The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings bu t shorter tempers, wider Freeways , but narrower viewpoints. We spend more, but have less, we buy more, but enjoy less. We have bigger houses and smaller families, more conveniences, but less time. We have more degrees but less sense, more knowledge, but less judgment, more experts, yet more problems, more medicine, but less wellness. We drink too much, smoke too much, spend too recklessly, laugh too little, drive too fast, get too angry, stay up too late, get up too tired, read too little, watch TV too much, and pray too seldom. We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We've learned how to make a living, but not a life. We've added years to life not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet a new neighbor. We conquered outer space but not inner space. We've done larger things, but not better things. We've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul. We've conquered the atom, but not our prejudice. We write more, but learn less. We plan more, but accomplish less. We've learned to rush, but not to wait. We build more computers to hold more information, to produce more copies than ever, but we communicate less and less.< SPAN sty! le= " BAC KGROUND: white; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial " > These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion, big men and small character, steep profits and shallow relationships. These are the days of two incomes but more divorce, fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, throwaway morality, one night stands, overweight bodies, and pills that do everything from cheer, to quiet, to kill. It is a time when there is much in the showroom window and nothing in the stockroom. A time when you can choose either to share this insight, or to just hit delete... Remember; spend some time with your loved ones, because they are not going to be around forever. Remember, say a kind word to someone who looks up to you in awe, because that little person soon will grow up and leave your side. Remember, to give a warm hug to the one next to yo! u, beca use that is the only treasure you can give with your heart and it doesn't cost a cent. Remember, to say, " I love you " to your partner and your loved ones, but most of all mean it. A kiss and an embrace will mend hurt when it comes from deep inside of you. Remember to hold hands and cherish the moment for someday that person will not be there again. Give time to love, give time to speak! And give time to share the precious thoughts in your mind. AND ALWAYS REMEMBER: Life! is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. If you don't send this to people....Who cares? Carlin ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 Thank you for sharing this with us . It is absolutely beautiful. Love, Wanda. > > > GEORGE CARLIN (His wife recently died..) > > > > Isn't it amazing that Carlin - gross and mouthy comedian of the 70's and 80's - could write something so very eloquent...and so very appropriate? > > > > A wonderful Message by Carlin: > > > > The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings bu t shorter tempers, wider Freeways , but narrower viewpoints. We spend more, but have less, we buy more, but enjoy less. We have bigger houses and smaller families, more conveniences, but less time. We have more degrees but less sense, more knowledge, but less judgment, more experts, yet more problems, more medicine, but less wellness. > > > > We drink too much, smoke too much, spend too recklessly, laugh too little, drive too fast, get too angry, stay up too late, get up too tired, read too little, watch TV too much, and pray too seldom. > > > > We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. > > > > We've learned how to make a living, but not a life. We've added years to life not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet a new neighbor. We conquered outer space but not inner space. We've done larger things, but not better things. > > > > We've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul. We've conquered the atom, but not our prejudice. We write more, but learn less. We plan more, but accomplish less. We've learned to rush, but not to wait. We build more computers to hold more information, to produce more copies than ever, but we communicate less and less.< SPAN sty! le= " BAC KGROUND: white; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial " > > > > > These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion, big men and small character, steep profits and shallow relationships. These are the days of two incomes but more divorce, fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, throwaway morality, one night stands, overweight bodies, and pills that do everything from cheer, to quiet, to kill. It is a time when there is much in the showroom window and nothing in the stockroom. A time when you can choose either to share this insight, or to just hit delete... > > > > Remember; spend some time with your loved ones, because they are not going to be around forever. > > > > Remember, say a kind word to someone who looks up to you in awe, because that little person soon will grow up and leave your side. > > > > Remember, to give a warm hug to the one next to yo! u, beca use that is the only treasure you can give with your heart and it doesn't cost a cent. > > > > Remember, to say, " I love you " to your partner and your loved ones, but most of all mean it. A kiss and an embrace will mend hurt when it comes from deep inside of you. > > > > Remember to hold hands and cherish the moment for someday that person will not be there again. > > > > Give time to love, give time to speak! And give time to share the precious thoughts in your mind. > > > > AND ALWAYS REMEMBER: > > > > Life! is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. > > > > If you don't send this to people....Who cares? > > > > Carlin > ! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 Thank You for sharing this--very true in so many sad ways. Coni </HTML> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2008 Report Share Posted May 19, 2008 How ironic, they are happy with her work to involve others with disabilities, but won't let her son attend mass. something to think about This is to hard to paste, as it is 3 screens. Easy to read and important though. http://www.startrib une.com/local/ 19033344. html?page= 3 & c=y epiousian = the expression of agapequite a bit more than enough Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2008 Report Share Posted May 20, 2008 You know, even if the kid is autistic, the other church goers have a right to their physical safety. I don't see how this is discrimination based on his disability. How will that family feel if/when their son rams some old lady, breaks her hip, and because of that injury, she dies? And yes, I have at least one boy that's autistic, and tough on the house, furniture, his brother, his dad, and myself, but I wouldn't put others in harms way, just to feed a superstitious need for church. sunrose101@... wrote: > > This is to hard to paste, as it is 3 screens. Easy to read and > important though. > > http://www.startribune.com/local/19033344.html?page=3 & c=y > <http://www.startribune.com/local/19033344.html?page=3 & c=y> > > > > epiousian = the expression of agape > > quite a bit more than enough > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family > favorites at AOL Food > <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1453 - Release Date: 5/18/2008 9:31 AM > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I heard a lecture by Bruce Tanio long ago that explained that all living things have a vibration level, and when plants are in distress they give out a distress frequency that tells the bugs to come in and invade and clean it up. I think this could be extrapolated to say that pests in produce probably find less life force in non-organic produce, and pehaps why organic foods don't need as much to protect them.. Tanio also found that by supplying fertilizer with high frequency (I am aware of lave, but he used a blend he made that had high frequency) he got very much improved production. He even was able to revitalize dying trees by giving them high vibration fertilizer. In a message dated 6/23/2009 8:16:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, spider77@... writes: Recently while getting my chelation drip at my doctor's office I was fortunate to be sitting with another patient who had two Doctoratesin Chemestry....For one hour I sat spellbound listening to him tell me of so many things and experiences he has had with the Government, etc., .... The one thing that really upset me was when we got on the topic of " organic foods " ....... He asked me whether or not I thought the same pests that love to invade fruits, produce, etc., don't like to attack the " organic crops " ??? Why would they only single out non organic crops??? He said all farmers, organic growers or not, .... have these pests to contend with and they all must use pesticides, insecticides, herbicides in on form or another.....The only hope for the organic food purchaser is that he must hope the produce grower or fruit grower whose products he consumes has used the " least " of the " worst " ..... I had to stop and think.............in all the years I have been purchasing organic produce and fruit {and paying top, top dollar for them to grow it " right}, I have never found a worm hole, blemish or any indication that it had been targeted by the nasty little buggers........This I thought certainly backed up his statement.......Anyway I suppose all we can do is try to do the right thing and hope the growers feel the same way...... spider77@... OT: Organic food Availability To: Rife Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 11:07 AM Hi, As many of you know, I live in Germany and a recent discussion with a friend of mine brought up the subject of how easy it is to get organic food in various countries. As health is also determined by the quality of the food we eat, I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss in this group. Here in Germany, it is very easy to buy certified organic foods, according to European standards and marked with the term " Bio " . All supermarkets (including the low price supermarkets) here carry a wide range of organic foods at prices only slightly higher than non-organic foods. There are even entire supermarkets that sell nothing but organic foods and drinks as well. There is even a local fast-food restaurant ( " Mcs " style) where all ingredients are certified organic and it appears to be doing very well. As organic foods generally taste better and have more nutrients than the " non-organic " (standard) varieties, a lot of people gladly pay that little bit extra (on average about 10% more) for foods and drinks certified to be free of pesticides, chemical fertilisers, etc. Nearly all the food I buy is certified organic and I feel the little extra cost is worthwhile. For example. instead of buying Coke, Fanta and Co., lots of people here now buy " Bionade " (http://www.bionade. com) instead. As we have a lot of people on this group from many different countries, please tell us about how easy it is get organic foods in your country / State (USA). Are such organic foods widely available in supermarkets where you live, or just in specialised shops? Are organic restaurants available in your area? Are the prices slightly or significantly higher? Do you eat organic foods yourself and if so, what proportion of your foods is organic? I am interested to see how this varies throughout the world and even if there are significant differences in the various states in the USA. Regards Moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Some of the Organic growers usually prescribe to Companion planting. Example: The Corn Beetle is repelled by Pumpkin, Planting Garlic & Onion around roses repels Aphids etc. Etc. The entire plant kingdom is structured like a Geodesic dome of symbiotic relationships, There are chemistry petri dish tests to assist in knowing the basics. The Ladybugs love our garden (no poisons) and many people get the overages from our few plants that grow " beyond belief " . My 2 Cents, TT Subject: OT: Organic food Availability To: Rife Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 11:07 AM Hi, As many of you know, I live in Germany and a recent discussion with a friend of mine brought up the subject of how easy it is to get organic food in various countries. As health is also determined by the quality of the food we eat, I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss in this group. Here in Germany, it is very easy to buy certified organic foods, according to European standards and marked with the term " Bio " . All supermarkets (including the low price supermarkets) here carry a wide range of organic foods at prices only slightly higher than non-organic foods. There are even entire supermarkets that sell nothing but organic foods and drinks as well. There is even a local fast-food restaurant ( " Mcs " style) where all ingredients are certified organic and it appears to be doing very well. As organic foods generally taste better and have more nutrients than the " non-organic " (standard) varieties, a lot of people gladly pay that little bit extra (on average about 10% more) for foods and drinks certified to be free of pesticides, chemical fertilisers, etc. Nearly all the food I buy is certified organic and I feel the little extra cost is worthwhile. For example. instead of buying Coke, Fanta and Co., lots of people here now buy " Bionade " (http://www.bionade. com) instead. As we have a lot of people on this group from many different countries, please tell us about how easy it is get organic foods in your country / State (USA). Are such organic foods widely available in supermarkets where you live, or just in specialised shops? Are organic restaurants available in your area? Are the prices slightly or significantly higher? Do you eat organic foods yourself and if so, what proportion of your foods is organic? I am interested to see how this varies throughout the world and even if there are significant differences in the various states in the USA. Regards Moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Hi Joe, Seems like the person you spoke to didn't know his stuff very well. So much for Doctorates in Chemistry ??? - maybe his degree came from a breakfast cereal package :-) I grow a full range of vegetables, use full spectrum mineral fertilizers, so those juicy tomatoes are the same as a mult-min/vitamin capsule :-) I also companion plant, mint, chives, etc into the garden. Absolutely zero blemishes and the best vegetables in Australia. People who usually brag about their degrees and woffel on about the nature of the world live in their own world of fear. They really haven't a clue about life. Here is an interesting fact hidden from most people by these so called Chemists. Supplements, those bottle of pills with vitamins and minerals in them, and the wonderful oils of life. What do you think the manufacturer does to stop the following happening? Scenario : A bottle of XYZ Mult-Minerals in the family cupboard. A few people may access this bottle daily to get their vitamin/mineral supplements. The manufacturer has to allow that some of these people will have been to the bathroom and forgotten to wash their hands. Even after washing their hands there can be found several cultures of fungus and mold on their hands, a little E.Coli and Staf is there too, and maybe they just touched their herpes cold sore on the way to the vitamin bottle. They carefully open the bottle and shake out a pill. ooops, two came out, so one goes back in the bottle. Now inside that bottle of vitamins and minerals are several cultures of fungus and mold, and some pretty nasty bacteria and virus. Question: Why when the bottle is put away, sometimes for many months and re-opened, there are no cultures alive in the bottle? What could the manufacturer sprayed over these pills or blended into the gel caps that has stopped these cultures growing? That has stopped life from growing? They will tell you they use " approved " industry standard preservatives (fungicides, pesticides, and a pretty nasty brew of very dangerous chemicals) ... or if they tell you there are no preservatives in the gel caps or sprayed onto their pills or mixed in with their powder, then they are simply lying to you. If these poisons where not used in supplement capsules and powders, then they soon would become a breeding ground for a whole range of micro-organisms - some quite deadly to us humans. This is called how to give a product shelf life and usability. One of the best kept secrets of the so called health supplement industry, and probably a person much like that Chemist you spoke to has been doing this to us all. So be wary of the cheap supplements, they are laced with poisons. There is one company that doesn't do this and they have 16 patents covering their gel caps and sprays, so zero human toxicity exists on/in their supplements. Sincerely, Ken Uzzell http://heal-me.com.au HealMe Foundation A New Humanity Associate Something to think about > Recently while getting my chelation drip at my doctor's office I was > fortunate to be sitting with another patient who had two Doctoratesin > Chemestry....For one hour I sat spellbound listening to him tell me of so > many things and experiences he has had with the Government, etc., .... > The one thing that really upset me was when we got on the topic of > " organic foods " ....... He asked me whether or not I thought the same pests > that love to invade fruits, produce, etc., don't like to attack the > " organic crops " ??? Why would they only single out non organic crops??? > He said all farmers, organic growers or not, .... have these pests to > contend with and they all must use pesticides, insecticides, herbicides in > on form or another.....The only hope for the organic food purchaser is > that he must hope the produce grower or fruit grower whose products he > consumes has used the " least " of the " worst " ..... I had to stop and > think.............in all the years I have been purchasing organic produce > and fruit {and paying top, top dollar for them to grow it " right}, I have > never found a worm hole, blemish or any indication that it had been > targeted by the nasty little buggers........This I thought certainly > backed up his statement.......Anyway I suppose all we can do is try to do > the right thing and hope the growers feel the same way...... > spider77@... > ----- Original Message ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Dear Ken: Let me assure you that the gentleman in question with two Doctorates in Chemestry didn't aquire them from a home study course and speaking about him with the doctor and nurse practioner, he is well respected in his field and at present in his own business representing clients in prominent court cases.....As for vitamins, only the uninformed buy any vitamins that come from a labratory and that is unfortunate..... I personally use " Standard Process " which are organically grown " whole foods " that are processed with a very minimal amount of processing.... The company has been in busines since the early 1920's......As far as " hand transmitted diseases " are concerned......stop shaking hands. Don't buy any foods that you yourself don't produce because having been in the retail food business let me attest to the fact that many food handlers do not hand wash after using the " Executive Washroom " ....regardless as to what their " business " was there.......And so my Australian friend, where does it end and what controll do we have over " what is " ????.....NOT MUCH IF ANYTHING AT ALL " ...... So, I hope you become an old chook and redundant like me and have built up all the immunities needed to survive.....With respect, ......Joe Something to think about > Recently while getting my chelation drip at my doctor's office I was > fortunate to be sitting with another patient who had two Doctoratesin > Chemestry....For one hour I sat spellbound listening to him tell me of so > many things and experiences he has had with the Government, etc., .... > The one thing that really upset me was when we got on the topic of > " organic foods " ....... He asked me whether or not I thought the same pests > that love to invade fruits, produce, etc., don't like to attack the > " organic crops " ??? Why would they only single out non organic crops??? > He said all farmers, organic growers or not, .... have these pests to > contend with and they all must use pesticides, insecticides, herbicides in > on form or another.....The only hope for the organic food purchaser is > that he must hope the produce grower or fruit grower whose products he > consumes has used the " least " of the " worst " ..... I had to stop and > think.............in all the years I have been purchasing organic produce > and fruit {and paying top, top dollar for them to grow it " right}, I have > never found a worm hole, blemish or any indication that it had been > targeted by the nasty little buggers........This I thought certainly > backed up his statement.......Anyway I suppose all we can do is try to do > the right thing and hope the growers feel the same way...... > spider77@... > ----- Original Message ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Understood. But we do have an immune system for a reason. I would not suggest getting too paranoid, but agree that organics are the best. Angie Subject: Re: Something to think about To: Rife Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 7:20 PM Dear Ken: Let me assure you that the gentleman in question with two Doctorates in Chemestry didn't aquire them from a home study course and speaking about him with the doctor and nurse practioner, he is well respected in his field and at present in his own business representing clients in prominent court cases.....As for vitamins, only the uninformed buy any vitamins that come from a labratory and that is unfortunate. .... I personally use " Standard Process " which are organically grown " whole foods " that are processed with a very minimal amount of processing.. .. The company has been in busines since the early 1920's...... As far as " hand transmitted diseases " are concerned... ...stop shaking hands. Don't buy any foods that you yourself don't produce because having been in the retail food business let me attest to the fact that many food handlers do not hand wash after using the " Executive Washroom " ... .regardless as to what their " business " was there....... And so my Australian friend, where does it end and what controll do we have over " what is " ????..... NOT MUCH IF ANYTHING AT ALL " ...... So, I hope you become an old chook and redundant like me and have built up all the immunities needed to survive..... With respect, ......Joe Something to think about > Recently while getting my chelation drip at my doctor's office I was > fortunate to be sitting with another patient who had two Doctoratesin > Chemestry... .For one hour I sat spellbound listening to him tell me of so > many things and experiences he has had with the Government, etc., .... > The one thing that really upset me was when we got on the topic of > " organic foods " ...... . He asked me whether or not I thought the same pests > that love to invade fruits, produce, etc., don't like to attack the > " organic crops " ??? Why would they only single out non organic crops??? > He said all farmers, organic growers or not, .... have these pests to > contend with and they all must use pesticides, insecticides, herbicides in > on form or another..... The only hope for the organic food purchaser is > that he must hope the produce grower or fruit grower whose products he > consumes has used the " least " of the " worst " ..... I had to stop and > think....... ......in all the years I have been purchasing organic produce > and fruit {and paying top, top dollar for them to grow it " right}, I have > never found a worm hole, blemish or any indication that it had been > targeted by the nasty little buggers..... ...This I thought certainly > backed up his statement... ....Anyway I suppose all we can do is try to do > the right thing and hope the growers feel the same way...... > spider77optonline (DOT) net > ----- Original Message ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not?I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my "bonus son"; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!??The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they "flattened out" any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!!I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now!All the best,Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 I am not sure of why there are problems. My two rods start at the neck line and run the full length of my back until the bottom disc which is the only one with no support. My one rod is screwed into the other and they have hooks on them sitting on the discs. They are stainless steel and have been there since 1966. My back is permanetly straight. I have two grown children and 4 grandchildren. I was an administrative secretary for 37 years and dressed up everyday including my favorite steleto shoes. My husband thinks I am nuts having so many pairs of shoes. I worked 25 of those 37 in a bookstore so I was on my feet alot. I do not have flatback, I have very little pain except when it is going to rain and I can tell you. I live a very fulfilling life. From: Beth <bethann0917@...>Subject: Something to think about Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 2:21 AM Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not?I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my "bonus son"; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!??The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they "flattened out" any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!!I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now!All the best,Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 I thought it had a lot to do with how low the fusion went. People who are most likely to develop flatbook are those fused to ?? - I want to say that it was to L4, but don't quote me on it, it just as likely may have been L3. Hopefully someone can clarify that fact a bit more. And as many people here have experienced - even with the newer hardware systems that theoretically are designed to preserve lordosis, the surgeon often doesn't use the hardware correctly to prevent flatback. > > Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not? > > I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? > > I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my " bonus son " ; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!?? > > The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they " flattened out " any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!! > > I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now! > > All the best, > Beth > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I have an anecdote to corroborate it. While waiting to pick up my daughter after school one day with my walker, only a few weeks following my flatback revision surgery, another mother came up to me from the side (which was awkward for me since I had a walker and only had the strength to stand and look forward to look for my kid, not crane my neck to look at her) who started badgering me with questions and then not listening to my answers but providing me with information about her experiences. I'm sure she was trying to " connect " to another Harrington rod carrier, but the effect she had on me was more like she was gloating at how her surgeon had told her that she would never have flatback syndrome because her fusion didn't reach far enough into the lumbar region and how she never had any problems ever. I'm glad for her, but at that point in time I really didn't need to hear how someone else had dodged the bullet that I was obviously still recovering from. (We'd met once before my surgery; at that time she was totally uninterested in speaking with me about this topic so I feel that my brace and walker triggered her interest.) Two days later as I was doing my therapeutic walking, I encountered a minivan that had ignored the stop line and crosswalk, effectively blocking me with my walker from crossing the street while I had the " green " and it had the " red. " As I was starting to shuffle my way around the front of the minivan, the driver rolled down her window with a big smile on her face waving at me and asking me how I'm doing as if she was my friend. It was this mother, totally clueless. > > > > Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not? > > > > I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? > > > > I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my " bonus son " ; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!?? > > > > The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they " flattened out " any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!! > > > > I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now! > > > > All the best, > > Beth > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Hello, group. I have posted once or twice before, but I tend to just lurk because like Diane, I am not having any real problems, either. I had Harrington Rods implanted in 1981 at the age of 24 (I will be 53 next week). I developed scoliosis at about 11 years old, wore a Milwaukee brace all through school, and started having a lot of back pain in my late teens, early 20s. My local orthopedic doctor referred me to Dr. Carl Fackler in Atlanta, and he did the surgery. I had fusion the first time using a floating rib and scrapings from my left hip. The next week, the rods were implanted. I’m sorry to say I don’t know the positions technically, but the rods go the length of my spine. The “natural curve” you are supposed to have at the base of the spine was made straight; therefore, I am “pitched forward” a bit. From the front, you cannot tell I have anything wrong. I don’t know if I indeed have flatback, but I know I look different than most people. I have gotten a tough skin about it and just go on as if nothing is wrong. I live a pretty full life. I have not had children, but have been married twice (currently divorced but in a relationship), have two great dogs and compete in dog agility, and work full-time as a systems analyst. I used to exercise regularly walking and lifting weights, but I have gotten slack lately and have put on a few pounds L The extra weight causes me more health problems than my back does! So I am very interested in why some people have problems and some don’t. I often wonder if I will eventually have problems. You all are very strong and courageous for all you have gone through. So far, my experience of pain and suffering has been in my teens and twenties. The stigma of not being “normal” is tough and it plays havoc on your self-esteem. I have struggled with that. In my later years, I have come not to care so much what people think! But the only time I really have pain now is if I overdo things, especially bending. I don’t wash my car or do heavy housework or yard work that causes me to bend over a lot. Otherwise, I carry out my day-to-day activities with no pain or problems. My aunt is a physician with a specialty in occupational medicine, and we have discussed this quite a bit. She feels that because I had my rods implanted as a young adult rather than as a child or teen, it may have been to my advantage. At the age of 24, I was physically mature and no further growth took place to “move” the rods in any way. Just a thought, which may or may not be worth thinking about. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Durand Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:11 PM Subject: Re: Something to think about I am not sure of why there are problems. My two rods start at the neck line and run the full length of my back until the bottom disc which is the only one with no support. My one rod is screwed into the other and they have hooks on them sitting on the discs. They are stainless steel and have been there since 1966. My back is permanetly straight. I have two grown children and 4 grandchildren. I was an administrative secretary for 37 years and dressed up everyday including my favorite steleto shoes. My husband thinks I am nuts having so many pairs of shoes. I worked 25 of those 37 in a bookstore so I was on my feet alot. I do not have flatback, I have very little pain except when it is going to rain and I can tell you. I live a very fulfilling life. From: Beth <bethann0917 > Subject: Something to think about Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 2:21 AM Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not? I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my " bonus son " ; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!?? The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they " flattened out " any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!! I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now! All the best, Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 It is stunning how out of touch some people are. Jeanne Re: Something to think about I have an anecdote to corroborate it. While waiting to pick up my daughter after school one day with my walker, only a few weeks following my flatback revision surgery, another mother came up to me from the side (which was awkward for me since I had a walker and only had the strength to stand and look forward to look for my kid, not crane my neck to look at her) who started badgering me with questions and then not listening to my answers but providing me with information about her experiences. I'm sure she was trying to "connect" to another Harrington rod carrier, but the effect she had on me was more like she was gloating at how her surgeon had told her that she would never have flatback syndrome because her fusion didn't reach far enough into the lumbar region and how she never had any problems ever. I'm glad for her, but at that point in time I really didn't need to hear how someone else had dodged the bullet that I was obviously still recovering from. (We'd met once before my surgery; at that time she was totally uninterested in speaking with me about this topic so I feel that my brace and walker triggered her interest.) Two days later as I was doing my therapeutic walking, I encountered a minivan that had ignored the stop line and crosswalk, effectively blocking me with my walker from crossing the street while I had the "green" and it had the "red." As I was starting to shuffle my way around the front of the minivan, the driver rolled down her window with a big smile on her face waving at me and asking me how I'm doing as if she was my friend. It was this mother, totally clueless.> >> > Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not?> > > > I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? > > > > I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my "bonus son"; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!??> > > > The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they "flattened out" any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!!> > > > I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now!> > > > All the best,> > Beth> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2010 Report Share Posted July 24, 2010  One thing that I noticed when looking at the x-rays from my harrington rod surgery is that the rod in my back angles in towards my waist, it ends at L3 and I have a normal lordotic curve from that point. If you were to look at me from a side view, I look like I have a very normal back/waste curve. If you look at me from directly behind, my spine goes way "in" and then flairs back out at the very lower part of my back. That combined with my fairly round tush makes my butt stick out. I do lean forward a bit and it seems to be getting harder to stand full upright some days, but mostly that is due to my back aching and after I do my stretching I can stand up very straight. Just thought I'd see if anyone else's rods were implanted in this manner - at an angle. jeanne Something to think about Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 2:21 AM Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not?I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my "bonus son"; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!??The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they "flattened out" any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!!I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now!All the best,Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2010 Report Share Posted July 24, 2010 Carla, I think you have helped yourself tremendously by not doing things that strain your lower spine. I went the other way and went water skiing, did aerobics, jogged, shoveled snow, dug in my garden, mowed the lawn, you name it I did it. I do believe this hastened the wear and tear on my lower vertebrae. Like you, I was done growing when my rod was implanted but I don't really know if this truly matters in the development of flatback. If I were you, I'd get back to exercising and keeping your core strong, that's the best way to preserve your unfused spine. I work very hard at keeping my core strong and I do believe it helps, but there's nothing that can be done for arthritis - which I have in many of my joints including the facet joints in my lower spine. But, the last tests they for me only showed mild arthritis and mild bulges, so I am doing my best to take care I don't injure myself further. I am always worried that more surgery is in my future. All I can do is try and stay as healthy and fit as possible and hope for the best. I am glad that you are doing well and I wish so very much that no one would have to endure what so many at this site have had to live with. Jeanne Something to think about Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 2:21 AM Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not?I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my "bonus son"; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!??The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they "flattened out" any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!!I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now!All the best,Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Hi Carla,You said that you haven't had too many problems with your back, which is great to hear. I'm just wondering how are your discs doing?Are they compressed together in the lumbar spine? I'm just curious if this is the process that usually occurs in the lumbar spine. I'm wondering if some people with compressed vertebrae may not have as many problems that others have.thanksericaFrom: Carla Blenk <cablenk@...> Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 12:38:10 PMSubject: RE: Something to think about Hello, group. I have posted once or twice before, but I tend to just lurk because like Diane, I am not having any real problems, either. I had Harrington Rods implanted in 1981 at the age of 24 (I will be 53 next week). I developed scoliosis at about 11 years old, wore a Milwaukee brace all through school, and started having a lot of back pain in my late teens, early 20s. My local orthopedic doctor referred me to Dr. Carl Fackler in Atlanta , and he did the surgery. I had fusion the first time using a floating rib and scrapings from my left hip. The next week, the rods were implanted. I’m sorry to say I don’t know the positions technically, but the rods go the length of my spine. The “natural curve†you are supposed to have at the base of the spine was made straight; therefore, I am “pitched forward†a bit. From the front, you cannot tell I have anything wrong. I don’t know if I indeed have flatback, but I know I look different than most people. I have gotten a tough skin about it and just go on as if nothing is wrong. I live a pretty full life. I have not had children, but have been married twice (currently divorced but in a relationship) , have two great dogs and compete in dog agility, and work full-time as a systems analyst. I used to exercise regularly walking and lifting weights, but I have gotten slack lately and have put on a few pounds L The extra weight causes me more health problems than my back does! So I am very interested in why some people have problems and some don’t. I often wonder if I will eventually have problems. You all are very strong and courageous for all you have gone through. So far, my experience of pain and suffering has been in my teens and twenties. The stigma of not being “normal†is tough and it plays havoc on your self-esteem. I have struggled with that. In my later years, I have come not to care so much what people think! But the only time I really have pain now is if I overdo things, especially bending. I don’t wash my car or do heavy housework or yard work that causes me to bend over a lot. Otherwise, I carry out my day-to-day activities with no pain or problems. My aunt is a physician with a specialty in occupational medicine, and we have discussed this quite a bit. She feels that because I had my rods implanted as a young adult rather than as a child or teen, it may have been to my advantage. At the age of 24, I was physically mature and no further growth took place to “move†the rods in any way. Just a thought, which may or may not be worth thinking about. From: FeistyScolioFlatbac kers@groups .com [mailto: FeistyScolioFlatbac kers@groups .com ] On Behalf Of Durand Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:11 PM FeistyScolioFlatbac kers@groups .com Subject: Re: Something to think about I am not sure of why there are problems. My two rods start at the neck line and run the full length of my back until the bottom disc which is the only one with no support. My one rod is screwed into the other and they have hooks on them sitting on the discs. They are stainless steel and have been there since 1966. My back is permanetly straight. I have two grown children and 4 grandchildren. I was an administrative secretary for 37 years and dressed up everyday including my favorite steleto shoes. My husband thinks I am nuts having so many pairs of shoes. I worked 25 of those 37 in a bookstore so I was on my feet alot. I do not have flatback, I have very little pain except when it is going to rain and I can tell you. I live a very fulfilling life. From: Beth <bethann0917> Subject: Something to think about FeistyScolioFlatbac kers@groups .com Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 2:21 AM Jeanne brought up an interesting point in her reply to ...why ARE there some scoliosis patients, who had the typical Harrington rod procedure of the 60's and 70's, who experience no problems later in life? I'm assuming that the fusion and rod insertion surgical procedures were basically similar from hospital to hospital, surgeon to surgeon. So why do some of us develop Flatback Syndrome while others do not? I had never really given it much thought before I read 's post but now I can't STOP trying to figure out the WHY?? Here I go again, harping on my favorite theme that the only stupid questions are the ones not asked!! So here's a question for the group: How many with thoracic ONLY (anywhere from T1 through T12) rod/s and fusions have developed Flatback Syndrome? How many with thoraco-lumbar fusions (T10 through L5)? How many with lumbar ONLY (T12 through L5) fusions? I fit into the thoraco-lumbar group; my original fusion in 1970 was T11 through L4. As I've mentioned in other posts, I herniated L5 in 1985, either during my pregnancy or while trying for a vaginal delivery. The symptoms of Flatback ( first, pain in lower back and left leg; then difficulty standing up straight) did not become evident to me until 1995. Until then, I had a pretty normal life...happily married with 2 children (older son is my "bonus son"; all the joy of being a co- Mom without the pain!!), worked full time, did all the PTA & sports stuff with my boys...a full and wonderful life. Then WHAM!!! I got knocked on my tush by something called Flatback related to a surgical procedure I usually forgot I'd ever had!!! Talk about not fair!!?? The surgeon who performed my revision procedures told me that my Flatback was due to the fact that Harrington rods are distraction rods (I always called it my internal car jack!) and that the old methods flattened the spine out. Back then, apparently no thought was given to the fact that, in my case, they "flattened out" any normal lordosis. I had never wondered 'why?' I didn't look like other women in jeans with a shirt tucked in. I wore scrubs at work for over 25 years, was never much of a clothes-horse, HATE shopping, and have 2 boys and a husband! Our idea of a perfect family outing is going to dirt track stock car races on Sat.nite and eat hot dogs covered in dirt!! Who had the time or the inclination to pay attention to things like whether my neighbor looked better in a pair of Calvin Klines?? I wore Levi's!! I'd love to hear from others as to what levels their original fusions were; those with and without symptoms of Flatback Syndrome. How much about this deformity is mechanical? Was there a difference in the surgical procedures or length of time in casts/braces post-op? I'm really curious now! All the best, Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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