Something to think about

November 20, 2006

Dr. McLagan was kind enough to send this over for me to " think about " . I

thoght it was appropriate for the whole group. Do we have a Barrett apostle

in our midst???

ph Medlin, DC

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1627 NE Alberta St.

Portland, OR 97211

something to think about

________________________________________________________________________________\

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November 20, 2006

hmmmmmm.... he is actually licensed in the state.

Poor boy .... how hard it must be to practice a health style you don't actually like.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: "Dr. ph Medlin D.C." <deadmed@...>< >Subject: Fw: something to think aboutDate: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:26:25 -0800

Dr. McLagan was kind enough to send this over for me to "think about". I thoght it was appropriate for the whole group. Do we have a Barrett apostle in our midst???ph Medlin, DCSpine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St.Portland, OR 97211 something to think about__________________________________________________________Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows.$510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment!www.LowerMyBills.com/lre

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March 2, 2007

Thank you to everyone for your responses, i would love to keep it going if

everyone would be willing. I love this kid and i just find him SOOOOO

fascinating.

In a message dated 3/2/2007 7:30:15 P.M. Central Standard Time,

afaltotten@... writes:

Your friend sounds like a very smart and level-headed guy, although I

think he maybe places a little too much faith in science and the

scientific community. I would not recommend sending him any materials

that are emotional and stick with the stuff that is mainstream and

scientific only. He does raise some points that have troubled me...

mainly about the fact that there ARE rogue scientists who can be full

of crap. It's hard to tell with the vaccine issue whether these are

people are outsiders because they are telling the truth and that truth

is unpopular, or whether they are full of crap.

~Alyssa in IL

" Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and

dance like you do when nobody's watching. "

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do

nothing. "

" Knowledge is power but how you use that power defines wether you are good

or evil. "

************************************** AOL now offers free

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March 2, 2007

In a message dated 3/2/2007 6:20:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

SquishyMommyof2@... writes:

I'd bet 10 to 1 that anyone who is convinced

that vaccinations actually cause mankind lots of harm has looked no further

than a sensationalized documentary or angry emails or a crappy website with

no

references, because the majority of their argument against vaccines is

taking

place on moral ground, not scientific ground.

can you still take this bet? He's definitely wrong about it w/me!

Holly

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March 2, 2007

In a message dated 3/2/2007 6:20:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

SquishyMommyof2@... writes:

It can only be legitimate if you also think

there's a mass conspiracy against humanity being perpetrated by scientists,

in

which they willfully slant their test results and outcomes and experiment

environment in order to purposefully harm all of humanity to make money.

wow, how did he know that is exactly what is happening? He sounds quite

naive to think this isn't at least a possibility. When there is money

involved,

people will kill. History has proven that.

Holly

************************************** AOL now offers free

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March 2, 2007

" The video features the upset father or mother telling the world that

vaccines killed their child and the same could happen to you. The

problem is that you're always going to find somebody who dies directly

by a vaccine. Yes, they cause people to die in rare cases, but so do

seat belts. Does this mean we should get rid of seat belts since

you're not necessarily going to crash your car, and not necessarily

going to get hepatitis? Why don't we see documentaries on the horrors

of seat-belt related deaths? "

---------------------------------

Ok, maybe we can keep an easily accessible thread just for stupid

things people say about vaccines. I'm gonna try to keep track on my

own. Peanuts, milk, bath tubs, and now seatbelts! It's great comedy.

Dan

March 3, 2007

>

> Thank you to everyone for your responses, i would love to keep it

going if

> everyone would be willing. I love this kid and i just find him SOOOOO

> fascinating.

>

What about giving him facts like the ones below, by Edda West from

VRAN. He should not be able to argue with those. When it comes down to

it, you really need to understand a little bit about the immune

system, starting with the infant and with breastfeeding, which sets

the foundation for life long strength and protects our babies and

children from many pathogens. Also, tell him about the beneficial

bacteria in the gut and the digestive system and how this can affect

the whole immune system and how this is disturbed by vaccines.

He has not looked or answered any of this. I try and stay clear of

controversial videos when arguing about vaccination as pro vaccinators

are always going to view it as yet another anti vaccine propaganda

tool. But if you give him scientific facts, based on research, that

shuts them up. Most of them have no clue about breastfeeding, how it

protects, how the immune system works. I can provide the references,

if needed!

Here is a short extract from Edda's article.

Ingrid

The human immune system is designed to respond to pathogens entering

through the nose, the mouth, the lungs, the gastrointestinal tract

which are all lined with mucous membranes, rich in IgA antibodies and

considered part of the first line of defense. Then, a complex

sequence of responses is initiated by the immune system until it is

fully engaged in dealing with the pathogen, insuring the invader is

dealt with, eliminated and an immunologic memory is put in place.

Vaccines bypass these multiple phases of immune response as particles

of pathogens, adjuvants (chemicals which magnify immune response) and

other chemicals are injected directly into the body. The initiating

phases of the immune response are never engaged. Vaccines stimulate

the endpoint of the immune system - the Th2 aspect which creates

antibodies. While vaccines certainly stimulate antibody production,

it's important to remember that antibodies are not the " be all and end

all " of immune protection. Furthermore, overstimulation of antibody

production can suppress the function of the Th1 aspect's ability to

" search and destroy " invading pathogens. Immunologists know that the

presence of antibodies does not guarantee protection from a disease.

There can be plenty of antibodies, yet the person can still get the

disease.

When parents consider the fact that vaccines artificially manipulate

the infant's immature immune system, that very little is known about

how the baby's immune system works, that it slowly shifts from Th2

mode to Th1, and that injecting increasing quantities of immune

manipulating vaccines too early in life may be creating serious health

problems later in life, they may very well decide to think twice about

vaccines and allow their baby's immune system to develop without

interference.

Breastfeeding – The Living Immune System

So what can we do to protect our children from infectious diseases and

enhance the development of our children's immune systems? Without

question, the most important thing that all parents can do when

starting out with a new baby is to make a commitment to breastfeed

their child. Even the World Health Organization recognizes that for

the optimal protection of the baby, breastfeeding for first two years

of life is recommended – the first two years being the critical time

when the immune system is maturing.

Breastfeeding endows the baby with a unique and highly protective

immune ecology. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of allergies, asthma,

diabetes, ear infections and SIDS (sudden infant death). Breastmilk

protects from pathological germs such as E.coli, polio, rotaviruses,

pneumococcal organisms, C. diphtheriae toxin, Haemophilus influenzae,

N. meningitidis , Salmonella (6 groups), C. tetani, otitis media,

bacteraemia, bacterial meningitis, botulism, urinary tract infections,

and much more. Swedish researchers have recently discovered that

breastmilk kills cancer cells. (3) (4) (5)

Breastfeeding is essential to the emerging immune system and enables a

successful transition from the newborn's immature immune system to a

normal balance between Th1 and Th2 aspects of the immune system. (1)

Breastfeeding insures that the baby's immune system grows strong and

resilient - the effects of which are carried throughout life.

Breastfed babies have the advantage of a hugely reduced risk of

contracting serious illnesses in the first year of life. Medical

researcher Dr. Alan Cunnigham, MD and many others have found that when

compared to bottlefed babies, breastfed babies have a more than 12

fold reduced risk of contracting infectious diseases, particularly the

big killers which are respiratory and gastrointestinal diseases. (2)

The human infant's vulnerability to infection hinges on whether or not

he/she is breastfed. Breastfeeding delivers the most essential and

powerful immune dimension which protects the newborn and young child

from a myriad of infectious disease.

Even though the infant is born with an immature immune system, nature

has provided breastfeeding as a sophisticated living immune system

which responds to pathogens the baby is exposed to and provides

specific antibodies and protective enzymes. Breastmilk is constantly

changing, depending on the baby's needs, stages of growth and

development, and germs the baby is exposed to.

Breastfeeding is THE crucial immunological bridge which insures that

the new baby has the following: a plentiful supply of the first line

of defense against infectious organisms known as cell mediating

secretory IgA; tremendous amounts of live cells called macrophages

which search out, engulf and destroy viruses and bacteria the baby may

be exposed to; and a highly complex enzyme system that provides

appropriate nutrients which also functions in multiple immune

capacities. An example of this is lactoferrin, the remarkable

iron-binding protein that insures iron remains unavailable to

bacteria, hence minimizing risk of infection, while also serving as an

essential nutrient. (3)

Fundamentally, human milk insures continuing oral passive immunity as

it lays down essential gut protection that prevents enteroviruses (gut

viruses) from taking hold. It also maintains gut impermeability,

which means the baby's gut is coated and protected, so that antigens

can't seep through the gut wall triggering allergic mechanisms.

Breastmilk is the most vital element by which immune strength and

integrity is built. It sets the immune foundation for life!

March 3, 2007

> >

>

> What about giving him facts like the ones below, by Edda West from

> VRAN.

Much better idea Ingrid!!

christine

March 3, 2007

In a message dated 3/3/2007 12:20:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

carmack@... writes:

I am an allopathically

trained physician with a new baby and am trying to make the right

decisions for her.

Welcome, welcome, welcome! How refreshing to see someone actually in the

medical community question what they have learned in medical school. I can't

wait to read more of your posts. I'm sure you can bring a lot to this board!

Congrats on the new baby! How old is he/she? Name? Any vaxes?

Holly

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March 3, 2007

Ingrid,

I would love to have the references in the breastfeeding article you

quoted. Can you tell me where to get the entire article?

I haven't introduced myself yet to the group - I am an allopathically

trained physician with a new baby and am trying to make the right

decisions for her. I met enough resistance from my colleagues with my

decision to deliver her at a birth center - the more " scientific " data

I can present about vaccines, the better.

Thanks,

adrienne

March 4, 2007

In a message dated 3/2/2007 at 7:29:55 PM Central Standard Time,

afaltotten@... writes:

Yes, it's more plausible that the 100 scientists are right and the 4 or

5 are wrong, but it's not a certainty.

You also need to look at who is funding the 100 vs the 4 or 5.... Who has

the $$$$ to do the studies and research?

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March 4, 2007

Thousands of people die from vaccines. These deaths are covered up by the

doctors who attribute the death to " heart failure " or a " pre-existing

condition. " They do not admit the death is caused by the vaccine. As for the

benefits from vaccines, people like myself who have done their homework, can

attest to the fact that vaccines are completely worhtless as well a harmful. If

you want to believe medical statistics, then you are believing fairy tales.

Re: Something to think about

" The video features the upset father or mother telling the world that

vaccines killed their child and the same could happen to you. The

problem is that you're always going to find somebody who dies directly

by a vaccine. Yes, they cause people to die in rare cases, but so do

seat belts. Does this mean we should get rid of seat belts since

you're not necessarily going to crash your car, and not necessarily

going to get hepatitis? Why don't we see documentaries on the horrors

of seat-belt related deaths? "

---------------------------------

Ok, maybe we can keep an easily accessible thread just for stupid

things people say about vaccines. I'm gonna try to keep track on my

own. Peanuts, milk, bath tubs, and now seatbelts! It's great comedy.

Dan

March 4, 2007

Thanks! I am still learning a lot, so can't add much yet. I am a

urologist, so administering vaccines is not a part of my practice. I

have a 2 1/2 month old girl, Kaili. We decided to get DTaP and Hib

for her and Tdap boosters for dad and me (though I haven't had a

chance to get mine yet). We are still undecided about the others, but

probably will be delaying until she is at least 6 months old. We will

be moving to another state then, and our current pediatrician

basically said that if we do not come in and get the rest before her

4 month check-up, she won't see us. I really don't see the point of

going to " discuss " the issue with the current pediatrician again,

since she clearly has no appreciation for a mother wanting to weigh

the risks/benefits of an intervention for her child.

Anyways, I've already been directed to lots of great resources by

this group and appreciate everyone's involvement!

adrienne

>

> In a message dated 3/3/2007 12:20:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> carmack@... writes:

>

> I am an allopathically

> trained physician with a new baby and am trying to make the right

> decisions for her.

>

> Welcome, welcome, welcome! How refreshing to see someone actually

in the

> medical community question what they have learned in medical

school. I can't

> wait to read more of your posts. I'm sure you can bring a lot to

this board!

> Congrats on the new baby! How old is he/she? Name? Any vaxes?

>

> Holly

March 4, 2007

I haven't responded on this thread and am not going to, but I have to say

that what does concern me is that if we go back to where it all started, we

can see that someone has breached netiquette by forwarding posts from this

list to someone who is NOT on this list. We have this big debate going on

here with one participant not even a list member, let alone sympathetic to

the general tone of the list. Given the tightness of this list, I am

surprised that this hasn't been commented on by the list owner and

moderators.

Not impressed....

Sue

>

> Thousands of people die from vaccines. These deaths are covered

> up by the doctors who attribute the death to " heart failure " or

> a " pre-existing condition. " They do not admit the death is caused

> by the vaccine. As for the benefits from vaccines, people like

> myself who have done their homework, can attest to the fact that

> vaccines are completely worhtless as well a harmful. If you want

> to believe medical statistics, then you are believing fairy tales.

> Re: Something to think about

>

> " The video features the upset father or mother telling the world that

> vaccines killed their child and the same could happen to you. The

> problem is that you're always going to find somebody who dies directly

> by a vaccine. Yes, they cause people to die in rare cases, but so do

> seat belts. Does this mean we should get rid of seat belts since

> you're not necessarily going to crash your car, and not necessarily

> going to get hepatitis? Why don't we see documentaries on the horrors

> of seat-belt related deaths? "

>

> ---------------------------------

>

> Ok, maybe we can keep an easily accessible thread just for stupid

> things people say about vaccines. I'm gonna try to keep track on my

> own. Peanuts, milk, bath tubs, and now seatbelts! It's great comedy.

>

> Dan

>

March 5, 2007

We have this big debate going on

> here with one participant not even a list member, let alone

sympathetic to

> the general tone of the list.

>

> Not impressed....

Yes I agree. I gave it a try once (responding) because I thought it

was someone genuinely interested in learning more, but after the most

recent post I was very angry! I found it quite ignorant and

judgmental, even a bit hostile, and I did not join this list to

discuss with people like that. I get enough of that when I go to the

doctor's office.

Thanks for speaking up Sue, I'm still kinda new to this group thing so

I wasn't sure about the netiquette!

christine

>

March 5, 2007

Can I ask why you decided to get Tdap for yourself?

> >

> > In a message dated 3/3/2007 12:20:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > carmack@ writes:

> >

> > I am an allopathically

> > trained physician with a new baby and am trying to make the right

> > decisions for her.

> >

> > Welcome, welcome, welcome! How refreshing to see someone actually

> in the

> > medical community question what they have learned in medical

> school. I can't

> > wait to read more of your posts. I'm sure you can bring a lot to

> this board!

> > Congrats on the new baby! How old is he/she? Name? Any vaxes?

> >

> > Holly

>

March 5, 2007

Hi Adrienne,

I have not long finished reading " Just a little prick " by

. It is a book that takes you through most vaccines, step by

step and I can really recommend it. has spent 17 years in

medical libraries resarching the subject and is very knowledgable

about the subject, also about brf. The book is very well referenced.

If you breastfeed, your baby will be so much healthier, really,

research and read all you can before making a decision as vaccines are

damaging for life, not just temporary. And you, nobody else will be

left to pick up the pieces.

will send you the book free of charge, but it would help if you

could send her a donation.

Here is her email address: butler@...

Ingrid

>

> Thanks! I am still learning a lot, so can't add much yet. I am a

> urologist, so administering vaccines is not a part of my practice. I

> have a 2 1/2 month old girl, Kaili. We decided to get DTaP and Hib

> for her and Tdap boosters for dad and me (though I haven't had a

> chance to get mine yet). We are still undecided about the others, but

> probably will be delaying until she is at least 6 months old. We will

> be moving to another state then, and our current pediatrician

> basically said that if we do not come in and get the rest before her

> 4 month check-up, she won't see us. I really don't see the point of

> going to " discuss " the issue with the current pediatrician again,

> since she clearly has no appreciation for a mother wanting to weigh

> the risks/benefits of an intervention for her child.

>

> Anyways, I've already been directed to lots of great resources by

> this group and appreciate everyone's involvement!

>

> adrienne

>

> -

March 5, 2007

At 05:13 PM 3/3/2007 -0000, you wrote:

>Ingrid,

>

>I would love to have the references in the breastfeeding article you

>quoted. Can you tell me where to get the entire article?

>

>I haven't introduced myself yet to the group - I am an allopathically

>trained physician with a new baby and am trying to make the right

>decisions for her. I met enough resistance from my colleagues with my

>decision to deliver her at a birth center - the more " scientific " data

>I can present about vaccines, the better.

>

>Thanks,

>adrienne

Much on my webpages

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

and MUCH MORE in my online class

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Sheri

>

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

March 5, 2007

I haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Fill me in.

Sheri

At 03:09 PM 3/5/2007 +0900, you wrote:

>I haven't responded on this thread and am not going to, but I have to say

>that what does concern me is that if we go back to where it all started, we

>can see that someone has breached netiquette by forwarding posts from this

>list to someone who is NOT on this list. We have this big debate going on

>here with one participant not even a list member, let alone sympathetic to

>the general tone of the list. Given the tightness of this list, I am

>surprised that this hasn't been commented on by the list owner and

>moderators.

>

>Not impressed....

>

>Sue

>

>>

>> Thousands of people die from vaccines. These deaths are covered

>> up by the doctors who attribute the death to " heart failure " or

>> a " pre-existing condition. " They do not admit the death is caused

>> by the vaccine. As for the benefits from vaccines, people like

>> myself who have done their homework, can attest to the fact that

>> vaccines are completely worhtless as well a harmful. If you want

>> to believe medical statistics, then you are believing fairy tales.

>> Re: Something to think about

>>

>> " The video features the upset father or mother telling the world that

>> vaccines killed their child and the same could happen to you. The

>> problem is that you're always going to find somebody who dies directly

>> by a vaccine. Yes, they cause people to die in rare cases, but so do

>> seat belts. Does this mean we should get rid of seat belts since

>> you're not necessarily going to crash your car, and not necessarily

>> going to get hepatitis? Why don't we see documentaries on the horrors

>> of seat-belt related deaths? "

>>

>> ---------------------------------

>>

>> Ok, maybe we can keep an easily accessible thread just for stupid

>> things people say about vaccines. I'm gonna try to keep track on my

>> own. Peanuts, milk, bath tubs, and now seatbelts! It's great comedy.

>>

>> Dan

>>

>

March 7, 2007

I didn't think that was a stupid analogy at all. He was saying that

everything, even things to protect us, come with risk. In fact, the

analogy is particularly good because, like vaccines, seat belt use is

mandatory in many places, in the US, at least.

Unfortunately for him, the same argument can be used against vaccines,

that there is always risk in contracting disease, but most people will

not die. -Angie

>

> Ok, maybe we can keep an easily accessible thread just for stupid

> things people say about vaccines. I'm gonna try to keep track on my

> own. Peanuts, milk, bath tubs, and now seatbelts! It's great comedy.

>

> Dan

March 7, 2007

Interesting that your pediatrician gave you this " attitude " even though

you are an MD like her.

On Sunday, March 4, 2007, at 07:18 PM, Tony wrote: