Re: Advanced Spine Surgery/Bonati Procedures

[Guest guest]

Check out this site: what do u think?

http://www.bonati.com/?OVRAW=spinal%20stenosis & OVKEY=spinal%20stenosis & OVMTC=standard & OVADID=7268191021 & OVKWID=10548560521

shanna

[Guest guest]

Hi I went to one of Bonati's seminars on Cape Cod, Ma. a couple of years ago. Bonati is located in Fl. and I think Ca. They do not take Medicare or my insurance. They said I would probably need 3 procedures. The first would cost $22,000 and any after that would be $16,000 each plus you would have to pay for your accomodations etc. If you Google them you will find out more about Bonati. My pain Dr. said be vary wary of this kind of operation. They offer minimal invasive surgery but so do many surgeons in other areas. Patkavi <kaviescontinued@...> wrote: Check out this site: what do u think? http://www.bonati.com/?OVRAW=spinal%20stenosis & OVKEY=spinal%20stenosis & OVMTC=standard & OVADID=7268191021 & OVKWID=10548560521 shanna

[Guest guest]

Bonati, LSI, and all the fancy laser spine facilities IMHO are nothing more than

snake oil treatments with a surgical knife.

Think long and hard why they are not main stream surgical procedures that are

medically accepted within the main stream spinal surgery community.

They have never been peer reviewed because the laser surgeons won't do it, they

have never been studied with standard and accepted study standards because the

laser surgeons won't do it.

They build huge, massive costly facilities in areas of the country that have

high populations of elderly and do not have as stringent oversight of medical

facilities.

They run these slick websites that make everything look perfect and professional

and such the patient in terrible pain into believing what they say is true.

They don't accept most, if any, health insurance and/or medicare and want all

their money up front before anything is done. That's at the rate of $30,000

just to get there, then you have to include the travel expense and a place to

stay, along with food.

They all say you need more than one surgery and they keep going and going with

the pressure to have it now without the ability to think about it.

They are known for shoving enough steroids into you to kill a horse and they

tell you it helps to heal and relieve post op surgical pain. They never tell

you about the serious side affects of so much steroid in your body.

They run you in and out like an assembly line and tell you that you are fine.

Yup, for a few months and then the pain returns or they have left you with so

much vertebrae removal that your spine starts to collapse as I've seen with many

patients sitting in my spinal surgeons office.

Then you are forced into fusions to stable your spine.

Many times you can't even find a conventional surgeon that will even look at

you, let alone repair the disaster that these facilities have done to your

spine.

They give you lists of people to sing the praises of their surgical procedures,

testimonials from satisfied patients. How do you know that any of them are real

patients and not just paid people to do their advertising?

They hold seminars all over the country? Isn't that like the snake oil salesman

coming around to sell you a crock of liquid to cure all your problems?

They need to travel the country to make their money, sucking in those of us that

are in terrible pain.

That should set off red flags all over the place and alarm bells ringing.

Anyone and everyone that I know who have sent their info to Bonati, LSI and any

of the other laser facilities, all end up with the exact same dx.

as listed below, including myself.

Degenerative Disc Disease @ L2/L3, L3/L4, L4/L5, L5/S1

 Bulge/Herniation @ L2/L3, L3/L4, L4/L5, L5/S1

 Spinal Stenosis @ L4/L5

 Foraminal Narrowing @ L3/L4, L4/L5, L5/S1

 Facet Disease @ L4/L5, L5/S1

and 90% of what is listed could be found on anyone over the age of 50 in any

combination or just a few or one of the listed above. The question is what is

really causing the spinal problem that you have.

These facilities will tell you that you need surgery on every one of these

things listed.

A good spinal surgeon will look at an MRI as only part of the DX process and

then match the symptoms the patient exhibits to determine what is wrong with the

patient's spine.

These places have a one size all fix for everyone.

Bonati has had more law suits that you can shake a stick at, filed for

bankruptcy at least once to avoid the penalties of paying and gotten away with

it because they are so free with monitoring in the state of florida.

The old buyer beware and if it sounds to good, it probably is, applies to these

laser spine facilities.

Stick with a conventional spine surgeon and be safe, or go to these places and

pay for it big time after the fact.

Fran

> From: kavi <kaviescontinued@...>

> Subject: Re: Advanced Spine Surgery/Bonati Procedures

> Spinal Stenosis Treatment

> Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 8:31 AM

> Check out this site: what do u think?

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http://www.bonati.com/?OVRAW=spinal%20stenosis & OVKEY=spinal%20stenosis & OVMTC=sta\

ndard & OVADID=7268191021 & OVKWID=10548560521

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> shanna

[Guest guest]

Fran,

What is your feeling about M.E.L minimum endoscopic LAMINOTOMY UNIV. OF CHICAGO,GEORGE WASHINGTONin D.C.UNIV OF PITTSBURG [FESSLER SCHWARTS,JHO ]and others are doing this much quicker recovery much less invasive less instability.Any knowledge pn this?

jerflo13@...

--------- Re: Advanced Spine Surgery/Bonati Procedures> Spinal Stenosis Treatment > Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 8:31 AM> Check out this site: what do u think?> Â > http://www.bonati.com/?OVRAW=spinal%20stenosis & OVKEY=spinal%20stenosis & OVMTC=standard & OVADID=7268191021 & OVKWID=10548560521> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shanna

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Interesting that you should be asking me about laminotomy as I had a partial

laminotomy done on my L4/L5 in June 2006 and just had a bilateral laminotomy,

partial bilateral facetectomy, lateral recess enlargement, and foraminal

widening and decompression on my L3/L4 this past June 2008.

It wasn't done with endoscopic surgery, but rather with an sports medicine

orthopedic surgeon who specializes in spines. It was done with an " open

incision " but the incision is only 1 inch long and I had only 1 stitch to close

the incision.

I don't know a lot about endoscopic spinal surgery, but based on what I have

researched and been told by my spinal surgeon, it can be very useful, but on the

other hand also very limiting as well.

Advantages are the obvious. far less trauma to the body which will lead to

quicker healing and return to function, may be done without the use of general

anesthesia which deletes the risk that come with the use of general anesthesia,

less blood loss, etc.

On the other hand, if the claim is that minimal endoscopic laminotomy creates

less risk for instability, that that claim is false.

Laminotomy itself creates far less risk of spinal instability no matter how it

is done. the key is to be sure that the spine is stable to begine with and that

all the vertebrae are lined up as they should be and there is no slippage. If

there is slippage then either something has to be used to create some kind of

stability when the laminotomy is done or it shouldn't be done at all.

The disadvantages of endoscopic surgery is the visual field that the doctor has.

No matter how much the magnification is for the doctor to see, his visual field

is only through the endoscopic tube and his ability to reach anything is only

through that tube.

That can present problems as the doctor can not see much of what he is doing

except the specific area that he is working on. His expanse to take a larger

visual look in not there.

My personal feeling on endoscopic spinal surgery is this.

I would want the surgeon to be extremely experienced in doing endoscopic spinal

surgery, having done many, many 100's of them before he did anything on me.

I would want to be sure that the OR is fully set up to revert to an open spine

surgery if needed and a larger visual field is needed.

I would want to be sure that the spine surgeon is fully capable of reading an

MRI himself and that he has xray equipment in the OR so that he can xray as he

is doing the surgery to be sure that he has left no bone fragments or anything

else in the surgical area.

And most importantly, if it where my body, I would go with an open spine

surgery. I like the fact that the doctor has a larger visual field. He's

" playing around in my spine " . That's where my spinal cord is and I like the

idea that he can see it well, has a larger visual field to see and move the

nerves so that there is far less risk of any nerve damage done.

I may sound overly cautious with what I'm saying, but I look at it this way.

I went into the OR with full body movement in all 4 limbs. They may not have

worked as well as I liked them to and I may have been in a lot of pain, but I

want to leave the OR and wake up in recovery with all limbs still moving. If

that means a better chance of that with a larger incision than an endoscope,

then it's fine with me.

I many cases, laminotomy can be done and you will go home the same day the

surgery is done, depending on the time of surgery and whether general anesthesia

is used. Without any complications, the longest time you would be in the

hospital is a 23 hour admission, which insurance considers day surgery. Both

times I had my surgery, I was discharged within 10 hours of arriving at the

hospital.

This last surgery, I arrived at the hospital at 7:30AM for 8:30AM surgery. I

had general anesthesia, surgery was about 2 1/2 hours, was out of recovery and

in a hospital room on the 23 hour admit day surgery unit by 12:30. I met the

criteria for discharge and was sent home at 5:30PM. The criteria, because of

general surgery was.

1. able to keep clear fluids down

2. able to keep solid foods down

3. able to urinate

4. able to get in and out of bed with proper body mechanics

5. able to get up and down from a chair with proper body mechanics

6. able to go to the bathroom with anyones assistance

7. able to walk the hospital hall without being dizzy and needing to hold onto

someone

8. able to climb up and down the physical therapy stairs without any problems

and being dizzy

9. any pain is under control with oral pain meds

10. had help at home when needed and someone to drive me home

11. understood all of my post op instructions

12. I felt steady and stable enough moving and confident to go home.

I would think that the hospitals that you mentioned would be good sources to

look into for endoscopic surgery, but I personally wouldn't use a free standing

facility such as Microspine. They are set up in the fashion of the laser spine

facilities. The doctor trained under the original laser spine surgeon Dr.

Bonati, but I believe that Micrspine doesn't do laser surgery.

By the way, more and more surgeons are doing laminotomy today instead of the

full laminectomy. Laminotomy, whether it is done with an open spine incision or

through an endoscope always provides a better stable spine than with a full

laminectomy.

You will find orthopedic spine surgeons doing more and more of them and for sure

will find sports medicine orthopedic surgeons who specialize in spines doing

them all the time.

I use a sports medicine orthopedic surgeon who specializes in spines.

Good luck and hope this info helps you.

Fran

>

> > From: kavi <kaviescontinued@...>

> > Subject: Re: Advanced Spine

> Surgery/Bonati Procedures

> > Spinal Stenosis Treatment

> > Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 8:31 AM

> > Check out this site: what do u think?

> > Â

> >

>

http://www.bonati.com/?OVRAW=spinal%20stenosis & OVKEY=spinal%20stenosis & OVMTC=sta\

ndard & OVADID=7268191021 & OVKWID=10548560521

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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> > shanna

[Guest guest]

Hi to all,

I wish that this procedure was foolproof and that it would alleviate

the need for more invasive surgery. But, being one that has had

invasive surgery, I would trade it for anything in the world. I am six

months post op.

I had a disk that was so far out of place that it was compressing my

nerves constantly. I also have DDD, spinal stenosis and osteoarthritis

in my lumbar spine. The pain that I had before surgery was so intense

that I could take a whole vicodin and an ambien at night and would

still only sleep 2-3 hours a night.

I found a surgeon who belonged to a practice that specializes in

spinal surgeries. My oldest sister's middle daughter had her scoliosis

surgery through them. I figure if my sister and niece were happy with

them, than I could be, too. The neurosurgeon that I saw first was

arrogant and had a holier than thou attitude and I didn't like him at

all. I love the surgeon that did my surgery and felt comfortable with

him right away.

Okay, to the surgery. I had a disk removed, (they used it in the

fusion) they took bone off of the right ileac crest of my pelvis,

fused from L4 to S1 with cages, screws and rods. I love the way it all

looks on my x rays and I didn't set off metal detectors when we flew!!

I knew as soon as I woke up that the pain was different. Six months

later I have muscle pain from my back and abdominal muscles being weak

due to lack of activity prior to the surgery. Now I can do so many

things that I couldn't before. I am going to physical therapy and it's

helping. My sugery was eight hours long and my incision is eight

inches. I was thinking about having ribbons tattooed around the

incision, not really, just kidding.

I know that surgery is not for everyone and you definitely have to be

ready for it both physically and mentally. I was and wouldn't trade it

for the world. I still have some weird sensations in my legs that

could be the nerves regenerating. The surgeon said that whatever I

have after a year is what I have.

I would definitely look at all the options there are. Don't go for

something that's a quick fix to where you'd have to go through it all

over again in a year or two.

Have a great weekend.

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Hi Fran, I'm so happy that your doing so well. I think we both came on this web site about the same time. I live in Ct. and although my pain is controlled with injections, at some time I will need surgery too. Please let me know who the Dr. is that did your surgery. I am getting together info so that when it comes to surgery I will be very informed. I think at sometime you said you were a nurse and I'm sure we're all so grateful for you're informative and knowledgeable postings. Continued good health. Pat BedardFran Barron <sunhineagain@...> wrote: Hi,Interesting that you should be asking me about laminotomy as I had a partial laminotomy done on my L4/L5 in June 2006 and just had a bilateral laminotomy, partial bilateral facetectomy, lateral recess enlargement, and foraminal widening and decompression on my L3/L4 this past June 2008.It wasn't done with endoscopic surgery, but rather with an sports medicine orthopedic surgeon who specializes in spines. It was done with an "open incision" but the incision is only 1 inch long and I had only 1 stitch to close the incision.I don't know a lot about endoscopic spinal surgery, but based on what I have researched and been told by my spinal surgeon, it can be very useful, but on the other hand also very limiting as well. Advantages are the obvious. far less trauma to the body which will lead to quicker healing and return to

function, may be done without the use of general anesthesia which deletes the risk that come with the use of general anesthesia, less blood loss, etc.On the other hand, if the claim is that minimal endoscopic laminotomy creates less risk for instability, that that claim is false.Laminotomy itself creates far less risk of spinal instability no matter how it is done. the key is to be sure that the spine is stable to begine with and that all the vertebrae are lined up as they should be and there is no slippage. If there is slippage then either something has to be used to create some kind of stability when the laminotomy is done or it shouldn't be done at all.The disadvantages of endoscopic surgery is the visual field that the doctor has. No matter how much the magnification is for the doctor to see, his visual field is only through the endoscopic tube and his ability to reach anything is only through that tube.That can present problems as the

doctor can not see much of what he is doing except the specific area that he is working on. His expanse to take a larger visual look in not there.My personal feeling on endoscopic spinal surgery is this.I would want the surgeon to be extremely experienced in doing endoscopic spinal surgery, having done many, many 100's of them before he did anything on me.I would want to be sure that the OR is fully set up to revert to an open spine surgery if needed and a larger visual field is needed.I would want to be sure that the spine surgeon is fully capable of reading an MRI himself and that he has xray equipment in the OR so that he can xray as he is doing the surgery to be sure that he has left no bone fragments or anything else in the surgical area.And most importantly, if it where my body, I would go with an open spine surgery. I like the fact that the doctor has a larger visual field. He's "playing around in my spine". That's where my spinal cord is

and I like the idea that he can see it well, has a larger visual field to see and move the nerves so that there is far less risk of any nerve damage done. I may sound overly cautious with what I'm saying, but I look at it this way.I went into the OR with full body movement in all 4 limbs. They may not have worked as well as I liked them to and I may have been in a lot of pain, but I want to leave the OR and wake up in recovery with all limbs still moving. If that means a better chance of that with a larger incision than an endoscope, then it's fine with me.I many cases, laminotomy can be done and you will go home the same day the surgery is done, depending on the time of surgery and whether general anesthesia is used. Without any complications, the longest time you would be in the hospital is a 23 hour admission, which insurance considers day surgery. Both times I had my surgery, I was discharged within 10 hours of arriving at the hospital.This last

surgery, I arrived at the hospital at 7:30AM for 8:30AM surgery. I had general anesthesia, surgery was about 2 1/2 hours, was out of recovery and in a hospital room on the 23 hour admit day surgery unit by 12:30. I met the criteria for discharge and was sent home at 5:30PM. The criteria, because of general surgery was.1. able to keep clear fluids down2. able to keep solid foods down3. able to urinate4. able to get in and out of bed with proper body mechanics5. able to get up and down from a chair with proper body mechanics6. able to go to the bathroom with anyones assistance7. able to walk the hospital hall without being dizzy and needing to hold onto someone8. able to climb up and down the physical therapy stairs without any problems and being dizzy9. any pain is under control with oral pain meds10. had help at home when needed and someone to drive me home11. understood all of my post op instructions12. I felt steady and

stable enough moving and confident to go home.I would think that the hospitals that you mentioned would be good sources to look into for endoscopic surgery, but I personally wouldn't use a free standing facility such as Microspine. They are set up in the fashion of the laser spine facilities. The doctor trained under the original laser spine surgeon Dr. Bonati, but I believe that Micrspine doesn't do laser surgery.By the way, more and more surgeons are doing laminotomy today instead of the full laminectomy. Laminotomy, whether it is done with an open spine incision or through an endoscope always provides a better stable spine than with a full laminectomy.You will find orthopedic spine surgeons doing more and more of them and for sure will find sports medicine orthopedic surgeons who specialize in spines doing them all the time.I use a sports medicine orthopedic surgeon who specializes in spines.Good luck and hope this info helps

you.Fran> > > From: kavi <kaviescontinued >> > Subject: Re: Advanced Spine> Surgery/Bonati Procedures> > Spinal Stenosis Treatment > > Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 8:31 AM> > Check out this site: what do u think?> > Â > >> http://www.bonati.com/?OVRAW=spinal%20stenosis & OVKEY=spinal%20stenosis & OVMTC=standard & OVADID=7268191021 & OVKWID=10548560521> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shanna

[Guest guest]

--------- Re: Advanced Spine

BR>> Surgery/Bonati Procedures> > Spinal Stenosis Treatment > > Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 8:31 AM> > Check out this site: what do u think?> > Â > >> http://www.bonati.com/?OVRAW=spinal%20stenosis & OVKEY=spinal%20stenosis & OVMTC=standard & OVADID=7268191021 & OVKWID=10548560521> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shanna

[Guest guest]

HI,Fran Thanks so much for your very thorough answer.

I also would like to know the name of any of the surgeons you would have considered for a lamiotomy as well as the surgeon who actually did your surgery.

I am at the stage of selecting the right surgeon and hospital any recomondations at this time would be most helpful.

Thanks again.jerflo13@...[jerry]

--------- Re: Advanced Spine

BR>> Surgery/Bonati Procedures> > Spinal Stenosis Treatment > > Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 8:31 AM> > Check out this site: what do u think?> > Â > >> http://www.bonati.com/?OVRAW=spinal%20stenosis & OVKEY=spinal%20stenosis & OVMTC=standard & OVADID=7268191021 & OVKWID=10548560521> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shanna