Re: Calling all vaccine zealots!LONG!

[Guest guest]

Wow Rose, you are much more brave than I am! I had just decided to keep my

mouth shut and never tell anyone my opinion about vaccines again. I wish I

had your gumption.

I use the b. boards at babycenter. The women that I talk to are the only

ones I really know that have babies - and I hang out a lot on the Aug 98

board. Recently, someone posted about a suspected severe adverse reaction to

MMR (autism) that her friends child has, so sad. Anyway someone else started

a thread asking everyone's opinion on vaccines. Most people stated that

their kid ws fully vaccinated because that's what you're supposed to do. I

had to go and open my big moth and say that I wasn't going to vaccinate

anymore and briefly stated 3 reason: 1 no proof of effectiveness, 2.

vaccines are dangerous, 3. Vaccines can harm the immune system and aren't

necessary.

Well, a few people had a problem with my post. One suggested I wasn't

*protecting* my child like parents are supposed to do. One stated she has a

BS in biology and couldn't see any way possible that vaccines could *harm*

the immune system. Another decided to start a new thread with her

" professional " opinion - she's a pharmacist! (What special information does

a pharmacist have on vaccines - I thought these people moved pills from a

big bottle into a small bottle all day!). Anyway, she felt the need to

" clarify " my errors.

Here's her post:

I apologize if it seems like I am rehashing this vaccine

issue, but as a pharmacist and scientist I think it is

VERY important to be informed about the importance of

vaccinating your children. There is a lot of

anti-vaccine propaganda both in the news and especially

on the web. Unfortunately a number of " facts " get

misconstrued and blown out of proportion, and the

scientific community has been slow to respond and is

only now scrambling to ensure that people are properly

informed. To clarify some of the concerns that have

been brought up on previous posts, I would like to

address some common misconceptions:

1) " There is no proof that vaccines are effective "

It is true that no vaccine is 100% effective, however

they are between 70% and 95% effective depending on the

disease. This actually supports the argument that

children must be vaccinated to protect the population at

large. There are some people in whom vaccinations do

not take effect, as well as others who cannot be

vaccinated due to existing disease states. These people

will not be protected against disease unless the rest of

the population are vaccinated. In the case of myself, I

do not form antibodies to Rubella vaccine (I have been

vaccinated 3 times), so I depend on others to get the

vaccine. If you choose not to vaccinate your child, and

your child develops Rubella, which is a very mild

disease, your child could pass this on to someone like

me. If that someone is pregnant, they have a VERY high

chance of having a baby with serious birth defects. The

reason for the Rubella vaccine is to protect pregnant

women, not to protect the child being vaccinated.

There was a statement in another post that a

study by the World Health Organization (WHO) showed that

children vaccinated against measles are 14 times more

likely to get it. Logically, this does not make sense

as most of us have been vaccinated, and we don't often

see measles. In fact the WHO is a strong advocate for

vaccination, and states that measles is no longer

considered an " indigenous " disease of the USA. For the

WHO website on vaccine safety go to

www.who.int/gpv-safety/

2) " There are reports of outbreaks of disease occurring

in populations which are vaccinated "

Imagine how much more devastating these outbreaks would

have been if these people were not vaccinated. In the

example of measles, this is a VERY contagious disease,

whereby almost 100% of those exposed to the disease who

are not vaccinated will get the disease. If the vaccine

is only 90% effective, then in a high school of 1000

students, you might expect 100 students to develop

measles. If none of these students had been vaccinated,

then the rate of disease could have been 1000 students.

3) " Vaccines themselves are dangerous "

Vaccines are actually very safe, despite reports to the

contrary in the anti-vaccine literature. The vast

majority of vaccine adverse reactions are minor and

temporary like fever or a sore arm/leg. This is

expected, as you are introducing a small part of the

virus into the body and asking the immune system to

react to it. I consider a mild reaction a sign that the

vaccine is taking effect. More serious effects occur

rarely, on the order of one per 300,000 doses and most

are so rare, their incidence is thought to be

coincidental with the vaccine. More recently, there

have been news reports linking vaccines to autism and

Crohn's disease. The American Pediatric Society have

dismissed this research and pointed out numerous

problems with the study and in fact the researchers

themselves do not suggest a causal link, but suggest

more studies need to be conducted. Epidemiological

evidence has found no link between SIDS and vaccination.

It happens that most children get vaccinated at an age

when SIDS is most likely to occur, thus the link is

coincidental. (I would, however, agree that we cannot

blindly accept this and studies should be, and are,

ongoing.)

Just because a side effect is reported, does not

necessarily link it with the vaccine. When I worked as

a pharmacist, I was often called upon to fill in adverse

reaction reports, and we would file the reaction with

any drug that the patient happened to be taking at the

time. Thus, there are many more side effects reported

than are necessarily occurring with a particular drug or

vaccine.

The SV-40 virus which was talked about in an

earlier post was found in several lots of polio vaccine

in the 1950's and 1960's. As of 1962, vaccines have

been stringently tested for any kind of foreign

contamination, and due to biological technology in the

past 10 years, these tests are now 100% accurate. It

should also be noted that viral DNA makes up a large

percent of human DNA, and other mammalian DNA, and has

been incorporated in our genomes through evolution. The

SV-40 virus and other viral DNA have been linked with

cancer formation in certain studies, but many more

studies have found no links at all.

4) " Our immune system needs the exercise, therefore we

should not vaccinate "

Vaccination is the introduction of foreign material into

the body with the purpose of STIMULATING an immune

response. This actually makes our immune system

stronger, and is one of the most natural ways to prevent

viral diseases. Before vaccines, most children would

get mumps and measles, then be immune to the disease.

However, along with these diseases came serious

consequences such as infertility, blindness and death.

We are no more equipped medically to treat these

diseases now than we were in the 1800's.

Vaccines DO work and here is some evidence:

-Through mass vaccine efforts smallpox has been

eradicated for the planet

-Polio has been eliminated from the Americas

-We have control of diseases which used to kill large

numbers of people

-Great Britain allowed a cutback on vaccination against

pertussis in the 1970's, and resulted in and epidemic of

100 000 cases of pertussis within the next 4 years.

This has been seen in Japan and Sweden as well,

resulting in huge jumps in pertussis rates. There is a

major epidemic of diptheria now taking place in the

former Soviet Union due to low primary immunization

rates resulting in an increase from 839 cases in 1989 to

50,000 with 1700 deaths in 1994, with the number of

cases increasing by 2- to 10-fold each year.

I beg you to PLEASE get your babies vaccinated. If you

leave it until they start school, the effectiveness of

the vaccine is decreased. By trying to protect your

child from side effects, you are putting thousands of

other children who can't get vaccinated, either due to

diseases, immune system problems etc, at serious risk.

Many children such as those with transplants or diseases

such as AIDS have no other protection and will die if

they are passed these diseases.

It is important to be informed about side effects and I

encourage you to ask your Dr. and read (I can give

anyone some good web sites about vaccines). I think

that it is important to encourage researchers to work on

safer vaccines with fewer or no side effects, but please

take a lot of this anti-vaccine propaganda with a grain

of salt. For every story about a child who has serious

side effects to a vaccine, I can find you one about a

child who has suffered or died from one of these

preventable diseases.

I apologize if I offend anyone, because I know that

everyone has their own views. I just think it is

important to have both sides of the issue expressed.

Tonia

Anyway, a lot of other mother have gushed and thanked her for putting their

fears to rest. I was a little offended by her post because it was a direct

response to mine - but yet she couldn't even address me by name (Keep in

mind this is ALWAYS a VERY friendly bulletin board - many people have been

communicating here sine conception and now our babies are over a year old)

Well, like I said it kind of annoyed me, especially since she was portraying

her " professional " opinion as FACT. I should have let it go, but I didn't. I

decided that she had as much right to her opinion as I do and it might do us

both some good to trade information. So I responded and added my own

" corrections " As follows:

Tonia, it was not my intention to " debate " this issue

here, I only wanted to give my honest answer to a posted

question, just like everyone else. Nor was it my

intention to give medical advice, try to change anyone's

mind about vaccines, or cause any sleepless nights. I

simply wanted to express that a vaccination is a

medical procedure - and therefore not to be taken

lightly. I am not " anti-vaccine " , I think very few

people are. I simply wanted to point out that that we

should educate ourselves before we decide. Whatever

choice you make, you are accepting some sort of risk -

the decision is which risk you are more comfortable

with.

I have thought long and hard about my decision (and

still am), there is a lot more to do with the decision

to not vaccinate than avoidance of possible adverse

reactions (the rarity of which are highly debatable).

For me, there are many factors, not the least of which

is a type of spirituality. I believe that we (man) get

ourselves into the deepest trouble when we try to

improve upon this perfect earth we were given. Who are

we to, first of all, decide when something needs to be

eradicated, and second of all, think that we can

actually do it. And, if we are successful - what will

takes it's place? Maybe something benign, maybe

something twice as harmful. I concluded that I would

rather err on the side of nature, to allow my child's

immune system (with the help of good nutrition, hygiene,

and rest) fight off these natural illnesses and become

stronger because of the accomplishment. This is a very

personal decision for me, one I assure you I did not

reach by reading propaganda on Joe's Vaccine Page.

The point I am trying to make is; we must all learn as

much about this issue as we can. An informed decision is

always the right one - no matter what you decide. As

Tonya (TCouch) said (quoting a Chinese philosopher I

believe) " the answer lies somewhere in the middle " .

I should probably let it rest with that, but I can't.

While I agree with a lot, there are a few things in your

" clarification " that I disagree with. I hope you don't

mind if I " pick at it " a little.

First of all (I put it first because I think it really

important and perhaps the heart of the issue),

" Vaccination is the introduction of foreign material

into the body with the purpose of STIMULATING and immune

response. This actually makes the immune system

stronger " The following is taken from How Vaccination

Work, by Philip F. Incao, MD.

<<In order to use vaccinations wisely, we need to

understand exactly how they work. Until recently, the

" mechanism of action " of vaccinations was always

understood to be simply that they cause an increase

in antibody levels (titers) against a specific disease

antigen (bacterium or virus), thus preventing

" infection " with that bacterial or viral antigen.

In recent years science has learned that the human

immune system is much more complicated than we thought.

It is composed of two functional

branches or compartments which may work together in

a mutually cooperative way or in a mutually antagonistic

way depending on the health of the

individual.

One branch is the humoral immune system (or Th2

function) which primarily produces antibodies in the

blood circulation as a sensing or recognizing

function of the immune system to the presence of

foreign antigens in the body. The other branch is the

cellular or cell-mediated immune system (or Th1

function) which primarily destroys, digests and

expels foreign antigens out of the body through the

activity of its cells found in the thymus, tonsils,

adenoids, spleen, lymph nodes and lymph system

throughout the body. This process of destroying,

digesting and discharging foreign antigens from the

body is known as " the acute inflammatory response "

and is often accompanied by the classic signs of

inflammation: fever, pain, malaise and discharge of

mucus, pus, skin rash or diarrhea.

These two functional branches of the immune system

may be compared to the two functions in eating: tasting

and recognizing the food on the one hand,

and digesting the food and eliminating the food

waste on the other hand. In the same way, the humoral or

Th2 branch of the immune system " tastes " and

recognizes and even remembers foreign antigens and

the cellular or Th1 branch of the immune system digests

and eliminates the foreign antigens from

the body. But just as too much repeated tasting of

food will ruin the appetite, so also too much repeated

stimulation of the " tasting " humoral immune

system by an antigen will inhibit and suppress the

digesting and eliminating function of the cellular

immune system. In other words, overstimulating

antibody production can suppress the acute

inflammatory response of the cellular immune system! 1

This explains the polar opposite relationship

between acute discharging inflammations on the one hand

and allergies and auto-immune inflammations on

the other hand. The more a person has of one, the

less he or she will have of the other!

A growing number of scientists believe that the

increase in America, Europe, Australia and Japan in

allergic and auto-immune diseases (which stimulate

the humoral or Th2 branch of the immune system) is

caused by the lack of stimulation of the cellular or the

Th1 branch of the immune system from the

lack of acute inflammatory responses and discharges

in childhood. 2 3 4 5 We need to identify the factors

which cause this shift in the function of the

immune system or which cause allergies and

auto-immune diseases in childhood to increase!

If we now return to the original question of the

mechanism of action of vaccinations, we find what I

believe is the key to the puzzle. A vaccination

consists of introducing a disease agent or disease

antigen into an individual’s body without causing the

disease. If the disease agent provoked the whole

immune system into action it would cause all the

symptoms of the disease! The symptoms of a disease are

primarily the symptoms (fever, pain, malaise,

loss of function) of the acute inflammatory

response to the disease.

So the trick of a vaccination is to stimulate the

immune system just enough so that it makes antibodies

and " remembers " the disease antigen but not so

much that it provokes an acute inflammatory

response by the cellular immune system and makes us sick

with the disease we’re trying to prevent! Thus a

vaccination works by stimulating very much the

antibody production (Th2) and by stimulating very little

or not at all the digesting and discharging

function of the cellular immune system (Th1).

Vaccine antigens are designed to be " unprovocative "

or " indigestible " for the cellular immune system (Th1)

and highly stimulating for the

antibody-mediated humoral immune system (Th2).

Perhaps it is not difficult to see then why the

repeated use of vaccinations would tend to shift the

functional balance of the immune system toward the

antibody-producing side (Th2) and away from the

acute inflammatory discharging side (the cell-mediated

side or Th1). This has been confirmed by

observation especially in the case of Gulf War

Illness: most vaccinations cause a shift in immune

function from the Th1 side (acute inflammatory

discharging response) to the Th2 side (chronic

auto-immune or allergic response). 6

The outcome of this line of thought is that,

contrary to previous belief, vaccinations do not

strengthen or " boost " the whole immune system. Instead

vaccinations overstimulate the " tasting and

remembering " function of the antibody-mediated branch of

the immune system (Th2) which simultaneously

suppresses the cellular immune system (Th1) thus

" preventing " the disease in question.

What in reality is prevented is not the disease but

the ability of our cellular immune system to manifest,

to respond to and to overcome the disease!

There is no system of the human being, from mind to

muscles to immune system, which gets stronger through

avoiding challenges, but only through

overcoming challenges. The wise use of vaccinations

would be to use them selectively, and not on a mass

scale. In order for vaccinations to be helpful

and not harmful, we must know beforehand in each

individual to be vaccinated whether the Th1 function or

the Th2 function of the immune system

predominates.

In individuals in whom the Th1 function

predominates, causing many acute inflammations because

the cellular immune system is overreactive, a

vaccination could have a balancing effect on the

immune system and be helpful for that individual.

In individuals in whom the Th2 function

predominates, causing few acute inflammations but rather

the tendency to chronic allergic or autoimmune

inflammations, a vaccination would cause the Th2

function to predominate even more, aggravating the

imbalance of the immune system and harming the

health of that individual. >>

There are many other journal articles and studies on how

vaccines affect the immune system, try a Medline search

on vaccination and immune malfunction. However there are

no studies ( pro or con) that study the long-term effect

of vaccines.

Secondly, " a study by the World Health Organization

(WHO) showed that children vaccinated against measles

are 14 times more likely to get it. Logically, this

does not make sense as most of us have been vaccinated,

and we don't often see measles. " Well, I didn't perform

the study I only quoted it. The logic, it seems to me,

is this: Measles is no longer an indigenous disease to

the US - so it would be very unlikely to " catch " the

wild virus. However, any vaccine has the ability (or

side effect) to cause the disease it is supposed to

prevent. So, like polio, the disease is more likely to

infect people who are vaccinated since they are more

likely to be exposed to it. As the WHO reported, 14

times more likely.

" Vaccines are actually very safe " . While I agree that

for many, vaccines are safe (cause no known adverse

reactions), however, for many they are not. Our system

of mass innoculation is what many " anti-vaccine " people

have a problem with. How different people react to the

substances in vaccines greatly varies. For example: a

major contraindication to the MMR vaccine is severe

allergy to egg. many Peds recommend not giving egg at

all before 1 year (like mine), many also give the MMR

shot at one year - so how do they know the baby will not

have an anaphylactic reaction? Also, many ingredients in

vaccines are toxic, no matter how you look at it.

Thimerosal (mercury disinfectant / preservative) All

toxoids including tetanus, DTP, HepB and Hib contain

thimerosal. many people have developed allergic

sensativities to thimerisol through repeated exposure to

vaccination. It is estimated to be about 9% (Schafer et

al., 1995)

Aluminum (added to promote antibody response)

Aluminum has been implacated as a cause of barin damage

and the accompanying symptoms of demetia, Alheimers

disease, seizures and comas. The asociation of aluminum

with neurologic symptoms is especially significant,

since the aluminum-absorbed vaccine, DTP, had been

proven to cause these symptoms as well.

Formaldehyde (disinfectant)

Causes cancer. It is considered hazardous waste by the

EPA and no longer permitted as an ingredient in building

insulation. At least 19 studies have revealed an

association between leukemia and cancer of the brain and

colon with formaldehyde exposure.

Phenol (disinfectant, dye)

Ethylene Glycol (antifreeze)

Benzethonium chloride (antiseptic)

Methylparaben (antifungal, preservative)

What's most disturbing to me, is that these things are

injected right into the blood stream (bypassing all of

the bodies natural defenses and a major portion of the

immune system), many times into an infant who does not

yet have a developed immune system. I have seen it

stated that the immune system is not fully developed

until 12 years, sometimes younger, never younger than 2.

" Vaccines DO work and here is some evidence:

-Through mass vaccine efforts smallpox has been

eradicated for the planet " " Official statistics from

many

countries indicate that smallpox (ant other communicable

diseases) were declining before vaccination programs

were enforced. This can be attributed to the sanitation

reforms and nutritional teachings instituted around the

mid 1800's. For example, water supplies were protected

from contamination, streets and stables were cleaned,

sewage was removed (instead of running down the middle

of the street) and food was delivered while still fresh.

However, once the smallpox vaccinations became

mandatory, deaths from the disease steadily increased.

If fact, record in several countries show that nearly

every contagious disease (plague, cholera, measles,

scarlett fever, dysentry, pertussis) EXCEPT SMALLPOX

declined in number and severity on it's own. " Here are a

few interesting numbers:

During a 10 year period ending 1881, 96.5% of babies

recieve the vaccine. 3708 deaths per million were

recorded due to smallpox. In 1911, 67.6% vaccinated, 395

deaths pm. In 1921, 42.3%, 12 deaths pm. In 1931, 43.1%,

25 deaths pm. In 1941, 39.9%, 1 death pm.

Polio.

" From 1923 to 1953, BEFORE the Salk vaccine was

introduced, the polio death rate in the US and England

had already declined on it's own by 47% and 55%.

Statistics show a similardecline in many other european

countries as well. And, when the vaccine did become

available many countris questioned it;s effectiveness

and refused to systematically innoculate. Yet, polio

epidemics also ended in these countries. "

*Neil Z. - Vaccines are they really safe

and effective?

Well, that's all I have the energy to respond to right

now. I would love to continue to " trade " information

with you, or anyone. I believe that knowlege is power

and when I disagree with something I learn a lot while

" checking the facts " . I think we can all really help

each other, as long as we keep in mind that we should

not try to dictate our opinions over others, but merely

present " food for thought " .

Good night

Shelby

After this several people stated that this " debate " had gone too far and

that we should basically keep our opinions to ourselves. The pharmacist

responded that she would not continue with this debate but she would be

happy to answer anyone's questions about vaccines. The another mother posted

that her son had had cancer and his immune system was destroyed by chemo and

that people should consider children like hers before deciding not to

vaccinate. She said her son would probably be " dead " if it were not for mass

inoculations. I don't agree with her - but how could I respond to that

without seeming like a callous monster? I mean 21 injections with vaccine

seems like an awful lot to me, but doesn't that just equate to *protection*

from 11 diseases? Wouldn't it be more likely that her child would get

something like strep, or staff, or e. coli or any other infection from the

countless " bugs " around us? What's the chance of him running into someone

with diphtheria?????

Anyway, sorry to rattle on, I just feel like I have lost a whole group of

friends because of this issue - like I don't have a right to my opinion! has

anyone else run into a situation like this (on-line or in real life?)

Again, I applaud you Rose, and anyone else who has courage to speak up - I

doubt I ever will again.

Shelby

PS - sorry again for the book.

Rose s wrote:

> From: Rose s <jstevens@...>

>

> Good for you

> We need more mothers to be as bold as you were to write at the

> bottom of each form that exemptions are available. Who do these public

> health people think they are?-- playing God with our children. In Canada

> , vaccines are voluntary--however they use the same tactics. They don't

> really tell parents they are voluntary--they ask to see the child's

> vaccination forms before they enter grade one, so that the naive parent

> just assumes it is mandatory. We need to be very vocal about this.

> Encourage other parents to do the same.

> I started the ball rolling and I now have many converts who are

> zealots--- just as myself. One mom, who has an autistic child, went into

> safeway and wrote on the bottom of all the vaccination brochures that

> the vaccine can cause autism and wrote down some web sites.. What the

> heck are vaccination brochures doing in a supermarket??

>

> Now is the time to speak up and be bold and not be intimidated by

> the health department's gestapo like tactics.

> I make sure that I take my cards with me that have vaccine web sites

> and my goal is to talk to 5 people per day. It really isn't hard. I talk

> to people in the bank, supermarket, golf course....etc Getting cards

> printed that say something like this: For Information regarding

> vaccines risk/benefits see the following web sites...... Are you making

> informed decisions? I went and had 1000 printed and made a few more

> converts at the printing place--- while I was at it.

> Yesterday, I didn't even have to leave my house and I was able to

> share the vaccine contoversy. My plumber and his assistant came over

> to fix a septic field problem and I shared with them the whole vaccine

> issue.They both took some information and are going to give it to their

> nighbours and they will be putting up our vaccine risk awareness seminar

> posters in their community. ( hockey arenas, post office and local

> grocery stores).It just keeps multiplying and each day more and more

> people hear the controversy and are asking their doctors why they were

> not given this information before. On my trip to the Common Cause

> Medical Conference near Ottawa a few weeks ago I happened to sit down

> beside a pediatrician on the airplane. Of course you know how she

> responded to my vaccine questions. She said " I am sick and tired of

> parents coming into my office with that little red book on vaccinations

> questioning my expertise. I said " do you mean Dr. Veira Scheibner's

> book? " Yes " she replied! She said " that women is not even a medical

> doctor and thinks she knows everything on vaccines " . I told her maybe

> she should take the time to read the book, because everything is well

> referenced from medical journals. When we switched planes, in Toronto to

> head on to Ottawa, she avoided me like the plague. I think I challenged

> her to take another look at the " sacred cow of vaccine philosophy which

> she had unknowingly sworn an oath to, when she received her medical

> degree.

>

> I believe if we are bold enough to share this information with a few

> people each day and encourage them to pass the word along---WE CAN WIN

> THIS WAR! and parents will be making informed decisions!

>

> Sincerely

> Rose 's Winnipeg , Manitoba

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Shelby, I think that was an excellent response to that pharmacist person

by the way, her post gave me an instant headache!). You were more than

bold, you were respectful and to the point. I run into situations like that

all the time offline. I usually make the opposition (usually unsuspecting

parents) stop in their tracks when I ask them if they have done research on

the risks or if they are aware of Vaers. I talk to my physician about it

and it seems he wants to admit so badly that vaccines are more risky than

revealed. But he just tells me that I'm a very smart person. Please don't

let anyone keep you from expressing your opinion on the matter, you do it

very well, respectfully!

Re: Calling all vaccine zealots!LONG!

>From: Shelby Helm <helminger@...>

>

>Wow Rose, you are much more brave than I am! I had just decided to keep my

>mouth shut and never tell anyone my opinion about vaccines again. I wish I

>had your gumption.

>

>I use the b. boards at babycenter. The women that I talk to are the only

>ones I really know that have babies - and I hang out a lot on the Aug 98

>board. Recently, someone posted about a suspected severe adverse reaction

to

>MMR (autism) that her friends child has, so sad. Anyway someone else

started

>a thread asking everyone's opinion on vaccines. Most people stated that

>their kid ws fully vaccinated because that's what you're supposed to do. I

>had to go and open my big moth and say that I wasn't going to vaccinate

>anymore and briefly stated 3 reason: 1 no proof of effectiveness, 2.

>vaccines are dangerous, 3. Vaccines can harm the immune system and aren't

>necessary.

>

>Well, a few people had a problem with my post. One suggested I wasn't

>*protecting* my child like parents are supposed to do. One stated she has a

>BS in biology and couldn't see any way possible that vaccines could *harm*

>the immune system. Another decided to start a new thread with her

> " professional " opinion - she's a pharmacist! (What special information does

>a pharmacist have on vaccines - I thought these people moved pills from a

>big bottle into a small bottle all day!). Anyway, she felt the need to

> " clarify " my errors.

>

>Here's her post:

>

>

> I apologize if it seems like I am rehashing this

vaccine

>

> issue, but as a pharmacist and scientist I think it is

> VERY important to be informed about the importance of

> vaccinating your children. There is a lot of

> anti-vaccine propaganda both in the news and especially

> on the web. Unfortunately a number of " facts " get

> misconstrued and blown out of proportion, and the

> scientific community has been slow to respond and is

> only now scrambling to ensure that people are properly

> informed. To clarify some of the concerns that have

> been brought up on previous posts, I would like to

> address some common misconceptions:

> 1) " There is no proof that vaccines are effective "

> It is true that no vaccine is 100% effective, however

> they are between 70% and 95% effective depending on the

> disease. This actually supports the argument that

> children must be vaccinated to protect the population

at

>

> large. There are some people in whom vaccinations do

> not take effect, as well as others who cannot be

> vaccinated due to existing disease states. These

people

>

> will not be protected against disease unless the rest

of

>

> the population are vaccinated. In the case of myself,

I

>

> do not form antibodies to Rubella vaccine (I have been

> vaccinated 3 times), so I depend on others to get the

> vaccine. If you choose not to vaccinate your child,

and

>

> your child develops Rubella, which is a very mild

> disease, your child could pass this on to someone like

> me. If that someone is pregnant, they have a VERY high

> chance of having a baby with serious birth defects.

The

>

> reason for the Rubella vaccine is to protect pregnant

> women, not to protect the child being vaccinated.

> There was a statement in another post that a

> study by the World Health Organization (WHO) showed

that

>

> children vaccinated against measles are 14 times more

> likely to get it. Logically, this does not make sense

> as most of us have been vaccinated, and we don't often

> see measles. In fact the WHO is a strong advocate for

> vaccination, and states that measles is no longer

> considered an " indigenous " disease of the USA. For the

> WHO website on vaccine safety go to

> www.who.int/gpv-safety/

>

> 2) " There are reports of outbreaks of disease occurring

> in populations which are vaccinated "

> Imagine how much more devastating these outbreaks would

> have been if these people were not vaccinated. In the

> example of measles, this is a VERY contagious disease,

> whereby almost 100% of those exposed to the disease who

> are not vaccinated will get the disease. If the

vaccine

>

> is only 90% effective, then in a high school of 1000

> students, you might expect 100 students to develop

> measles. If none of these students had been

vaccinated,

>

> then the rate of disease could have been 1000 students.

>

> 3) " Vaccines themselves are dangerous "

> Vaccines are actually very safe, despite reports to the

> contrary in the anti-vaccine literature. The vast

> majority of vaccine adverse reactions are minor and

> temporary like fever or a sore arm/leg. This is

> expected, as you are introducing a small part of the

> virus into the body and asking the immune system to

> react to it. I consider a mild reaction a sign that

the

>

> vaccine is taking effect. More serious effects occur

> rarely, on the order of one per 300,000 doses and most

> are so rare, their incidence is thought to be

> coincidental with the vaccine. More recently, there

> have been news reports linking vaccines to autism and

> Crohn's disease. The American Pediatric Society have

> dismissed this research and pointed out numerous

> problems with the study and in fact the researchers

> themselves do not suggest a causal link, but suggest

> more studies need to be conducted. Epidemiological

> evidence has found no link between SIDS and

vaccination.

>

> It happens that most children get vaccinated at an

age

>

> when SIDS is most likely to occur, thus the link is

> coincidental. (I would, however, agree that we cannot

> blindly accept this and studies should be, and are,

> ongoing.)

> Just because a side effect is reported, does

not

>

> necessarily link it with the vaccine. When I worked as

> a pharmacist, I was often called upon to fill in

adverse

>

> reaction reports, and we would file the reaction with

> any drug that the patient happened to be taking at the

> time. Thus, there are many more side effects reported

> than are necessarily occurring with a particular drug

or

>

> vaccine.

> The SV-40 virus which was talked about in an

> earlier post was found in several lots of polio vaccine

> in the 1950's and 1960's. As of 1962, vaccines have

> been stringently tested for any kind of foreign

> contamination, and due to biological technology in the

> past 10 years, these tests are now 100% accurate. It

> should also be noted that viral DNA makes up a large

> percent of human DNA, and other mammalian DNA, and has

> been incorporated in our genomes through evolution.

The

>

> SV-40 virus and other viral DNA have been linked with

> cancer formation in certain studies, but many more

> studies have found no links at all.

>

> 4) " Our immune system needs the exercise, therefore we

> should not vaccinate "

> Vaccination is the introduction of foreign material

into

>

> the body with the purpose of STIMULATING an immune

> response. This actually makes our immune system

> stronger, and is one of the most natural ways to

prevent

>

> viral diseases. Before vaccines, most children would

> get mumps and measles, then be immune to the disease.

> However, along with these diseases came serious

> consequences such as infertility, blindness and death.

> We are no more equipped medically to treat these

> diseases now than we were in the 1800's.

>

> Vaccines DO work and here is some evidence:

> -Through mass vaccine efforts smallpox has been

> eradicated for the planet

> -Polio has been eliminated from the Americas

> -We have control of diseases which used to kill large

> numbers of people

> -Great Britain allowed a cutback on vaccination against

> pertussis in the 1970's, and resulted in and epidemic

of

>

> 100 000 cases of pertussis within the next 4 years.

> This has been seen in Japan and Sweden as well,

> resulting in huge jumps in pertussis rates. There is a

> major epidemic of diptheria now taking place in the

> former Soviet Union due to low primary immunization

> rates resulting in an increase from 839 cases in 1989

to

>

> 50,000 with 1700 deaths in 1994, with the number of

> cases increasing by 2- to 10-fold each year.

>

> I beg you to PLEASE get your babies vaccinated. If you

> leave it until they start school, the effectiveness of

> the vaccine is decreased. By trying to protect your

> child from side effects, you are putting thousands of

> other children who can't get vaccinated, either due to

> diseases, immune system problems etc, at serious risk.

> Many children such as those with transplants or

diseases

>

> such as AIDS have no other protection and will die if

> they are passed these diseases.

>

> It is important to be informed about side effects and I

> encourage you to ask your Dr. and read (I can give

> anyone some good web sites about vaccines). I think

> that it is important to encourage researchers to work

on

>

> safer vaccines with fewer or no side effects, but

please

>

> take a lot of this anti-vaccine propaganda with a grain

> of salt. For every story about a child who has serious

> side effects to a vaccine, I can find you one about a

> child who has suffered or died from one of these

> preventable diseases.

>

> I apologize if I offend anyone, because I know that

> everyone has their own views. I just think it is

> important to have both sides of the issue expressed.

>

> Tonia

>

>Anyway, a lot of other mother have gushed and thanked her for putting their

>fears to rest. I was a little offended by her post because it was a direct

>response to mine - but yet she couldn't even address me by name (Keep in

>mind this is ALWAYS a VERY friendly bulletin board - many people have been

>communicating here sine conception and now our babies are over a year old)

>

>Well, like I said it kind of annoyed me, especially since she was

portraying

>her " professional " opinion as FACT. I should have let it go, but I didn't.

I

>decided that she had as much right to her opinion as I do and it might do

us

>both some good to trade information. So I responded and added my own

> " corrections " As follows:

>

>

>

> Tonia, it was not my intention to " debate " this issue

> here, I only wanted to give my honest answer to a

posted

>

> question, just like everyone else. Nor was it my

> intention to give medical advice, try to change

anyone's

>

> mind about vaccines, or cause any sleepless nights. I

> simply wanted to express that a vaccination is a

> medical procedure - and therefore not to be taken

> lightly. I am not " anti-vaccine " , I think very few

> people are. I simply wanted to point out that that we

> should educate ourselves before we decide. Whatever

> choice you make, you are accepting some sort of risk -

> the decision is which risk you are more comfortable

> with.

>

> I have thought long and hard about my decision (and

> still am), there is a lot more to do with the decision

> to not vaccinate than avoidance of possible adverse

> reactions (the rarity of which are highly debatable).

> For me, there are many factors, not the least of which

> is a type of spirituality. I believe that we (man) get

> ourselves into the deepest trouble when we try to

> improve upon this perfect earth we were given. Who are

> we to, first of all, decide when something needs to be

> eradicated, and second of all, think that we can

> actually do it. And, if we are successful - what will

> takes it's place? Maybe something benign, maybe

> something twice as harmful. I concluded that I would

> rather err on the side of nature, to allow my child's

> immune system (with the help of good nutrition,

hygiene,

>

> and rest) fight off these natural illnesses and become

> stronger because of the accomplishment. This is a very

> personal decision for me, one I assure you I did not

> reach by reading propaganda on Joe's Vaccine Page.

>

> The point I am trying to make is; we must all learn as

> much about this issue as we can. An informed decision

is

>

> always the right one - no matter what you decide. As

> Tonya (TCouch) said (quoting a Chinese philosopher I

> believe) " the answer lies somewhere in the middle " .

>

>

> I should probably let it rest with that, but I can't.

> While I agree with a lot, there are a few things in

your

>

> " clarification " that I disagree with. I hope you don't

> mind if I " pick at it " a little.

>

> First of all (I put it first because I think it really

> important and perhaps the heart of the issue),

> " Vaccination is the introduction of foreign material

> into the body with the purpose of STIMULATING and

immune

>

> response. This actually makes the immune system

> stronger " The following is taken from How Vaccination

> Work, by Philip F. Incao, MD.

>

> <<In order to use vaccinations wisely, we need to

> understand exactly how they work. Until recently, the

> " mechanism of action " of vaccinations was always

> understood to be simply that they cause an

increase

>

> in antibody levels (titers) against a specific disease

> antigen (bacterium or virus), thus preventing

> " infection " with that bacterial or viral antigen.

>

> In recent years science has learned that the human

> immune system is much more complicated than we thought.

> It is composed of two functional

> branches or compartments which may work together

in

>

> a mutually cooperative way or in a mutually

antagonistic

>

> way depending on the health of the

> individual.

>

> One branch is the humoral immune system (or Th2

> function) which primarily produces antibodies in the

> blood circulation as a sensing or recognizing

> function of the immune system to the presence of

> foreign antigens in the body. The other branch is the

> cellular or cell-mediated immune system (or Th1

> function) which primarily destroys, digests and

> expels foreign antigens out of the body through the

> activity of its cells found in the thymus, tonsils,

> adenoids, spleen, lymph nodes and lymph system

> throughout the body. This process of destroying,

> digesting and discharging foreign antigens from the

> body is known as " the acute inflammatory response "

> and is often accompanied by the classic signs of

> inflammation: fever, pain, malaise and discharge of

> mucus, pus, skin rash or diarrhea.

>

> These two functional branches of the immune system

> may be compared to the two functions in eating: tasting

> and recognizing the food on the one hand,

> and digesting the food and eliminating the food

> waste on the other hand. In the same way, the humoral

or

>

> Th2 branch of the immune system " tastes " and

> recognizes and even remembers foreign antigens and

> the cellular or Th1 branch of the immune system digests

> and eliminates the foreign antigens from

> the body. But just as too much repeated tasting of

> food will ruin the appetite, so also too much repeated

> stimulation of the " tasting " humoral immune

> system by an antigen will inhibit and suppress the

> digesting and eliminating function of the cellular

> immune system. In other words, overstimulating

> antibody production can suppress the acute

> inflammatory response of the cellular immune system! 1

>

> This explains the polar opposite relationship

> between acute discharging inflammations on the one hand

> and allergies and auto-immune inflammations on

> the other hand. The more a person has of one, the

> less he or she will have of the other!

>

> A growing number of scientists believe that the

> increase in America, Europe, Australia and Japan in

> allergic and auto-immune diseases (which stimulate

> the humoral or Th2 branch of the immune system) is

> caused by the lack of stimulation of the cellular or

the

>

> Th1 branch of the immune system from the

> lack of acute inflammatory responses and

discharges

>

> in childhood. 2 3 4 5 We need to identify the factors

> which cause this shift in the function of the

> immune system or which cause allergies and

> auto-immune diseases in childhood to increase!

>

> If we now return to the original question of the

> mechanism of action of vaccinations, we find what I

> believe is the key to the puzzle. A vaccination

> consists of introducing a disease agent or disease

> antigen into an individual’s body without causing the

> disease. If the disease agent provoked the whole

> immune system into action it would cause all the

> symptoms of the disease! The symptoms of a disease are

> primarily the symptoms (fever, pain, malaise,

> loss of function) of the acute inflammatory

> response to the disease.

>

> So the trick of a vaccination is to stimulate the

> immune system just enough so that it makes antibodies

> and " remembers " the disease antigen but not so

> much that it provokes an acute inflammatory

> response by the cellular immune system and makes us

sick

>

> with the disease we’re trying to prevent! Thus a

> vaccination works by stimulating very much the

> antibody production (Th2) and by stimulating very

little

>

> or not at all the digesting and discharging

> function of the cellular immune system (Th1).

>

> Vaccine antigens are designed to be

" unprovocative "

>

> or " indigestible " for the cellular immune system (Th1)

> and highly stimulating for the

> antibody-mediated humoral immune system (Th2).

>

> Perhaps it is not difficult to see then why the

> repeated use of vaccinations would tend to shift the

> functional balance of the immune system toward the

> antibody-producing side (Th2) and away from the

> acute inflammatory discharging side (the cell-mediated

> side or Th1). This has been confirmed by

> observation especially in the case of Gulf War

> Illness: most vaccinations cause a shift in immune

> function from the Th1 side (acute inflammatory

> discharging response) to the Th2 side (chronic

> auto-immune or allergic response). 6

>

> The outcome of this line of thought is that,

> contrary to previous belief, vaccinations do not

> strengthen or " boost " the whole immune system. Instead

> vaccinations overstimulate the " tasting and

> remembering " function of the antibody-mediated branch

of

>

> the immune system (Th2) which simultaneously

> suppresses the cellular immune system (Th1) thus

> " preventing " the disease in question.

>

> What in reality is prevented is not the disease

but

>

> the ability of our cellular immune system to manifest,

> to respond to and to overcome the disease!

>

> There is no system of the human being, from mind

to

>

> muscles to immune system, which gets stronger through

> avoiding challenges, but only through

> overcoming challenges. The wise use of

vaccinations

>

> would be to use them selectively, and not on a mass

> scale. In order for vaccinations to be helpful

> and not harmful, we must know beforehand in each

> individual to be vaccinated whether the Th1 function or

> the Th2 function of the immune system

> predominates.

>

> In individuals in whom the Th1 function

> predominates, causing many acute inflammations because

> the cellular immune system is overreactive, a

> vaccination could have a balancing effect on the

> immune system and be helpful for that individual.

>

> In individuals in whom the Th2 function

> predominates, causing few acute inflammations but

rather

>

> the tendency to chronic allergic or autoimmune

> inflammations, a vaccination would cause the Th2

> function to predominate even more, aggravating the

> imbalance of the immune system and harming the

> health of that individual. >>

>

> There are many other journal articles and studies on

how

>

> vaccines affect the immune system, try a Medline search

> on vaccination and immune malfunction. However there

are

>

> no studies ( pro or con) that study the long-term

effect

>

> of vaccines.

>

> Secondly, " a study by the World Health Organization

> (WHO) showed that children vaccinated against measles

> are 14 times more likely to get it. Logically, this

> does not make sense as most of us have been vaccinated,

> and we don't often see measles. " Well, I didn't perform

> the study I only quoted it. The logic, it seems to me,

> is this: Measles is no longer an indigenous disease to

> the US - so it would be very unlikely to " catch " the

> wild virus. However, any vaccine has the ability (or

> side effect) to cause the disease it is supposed to

> prevent. So, like polio, the disease is more likely to

> infect people who are vaccinated since they are more

> likely to be exposed to it. As the WHO reported, 14

> times more likely.

>

> " Vaccines are actually very safe " . While I agree that

> for many, vaccines are safe (cause no known adverse

> reactions), however, for many they are not. Our system

> of mass innoculation is what many " anti-vaccine " people

> have a problem with. How different people react to the

> substances in vaccines greatly varies. For example: a

> major contraindication to the MMR vaccine is severe

> allergy to egg. many Peds recommend not giving egg at

> all before 1 year (like mine), many also give the MMR

> shot at one year - so how do they know the baby will

not

>

> have an anaphylactic reaction? Also, many ingredients

in

>

> vaccines are toxic, no matter how you look at it.

>

> Thimerosal (mercury disinfectant / preservative) All

> toxoids including tetanus, DTP, HepB and Hib contain

> thimerosal. many people have developed allergic

> sensativities to thimerisol through repeated exposure

to

>

> vaccination. It is estimated to be about 9% (Schafer et

> al., 1995)

>

> Aluminum (added to promote antibody response)

> Aluminum has been implacated as a cause of barin damage

> and the accompanying symptoms of demetia, Alheimers

> disease, seizures and comas. The asociation of aluminum

> with neurologic symptoms is especially significant,

> since the aluminum-absorbed vaccine, DTP, had been

> proven to cause these symptoms as well.

>

> Formaldehyde (disinfectant)

> Causes cancer. It is considered hazardous waste by the

> EPA and no longer permitted as an ingredient in

building

>

> insulation. At least 19 studies have revealed an

> association between leukemia and cancer of the brain

and

>

> colon with formaldehyde exposure.

>

> Phenol (disinfectant, dye)

> Ethylene Glycol (antifreeze)

> Benzethonium chloride (antiseptic)

> Methylparaben (antifungal, preservative)

>

> What's most disturbing to me, is that these things are

> injected right into the blood stream (bypassing all of

> the bodies natural defenses and a major portion of the

> immune system), many times into an infant who does not

> yet have a developed immune system. I have seen it

> stated that the immune system is not fully developed

> until 12 years, sometimes younger, never younger than

2.

>

>

>

> " Vaccines DO work and here is some evidence:

> -Through mass vaccine efforts smallpox has been

> eradicated for the planet " " Official statistics from

>many

> countries indicate that smallpox (ant other

communicable

>

> diseases) were declining before vaccination programs

> were enforced. This can be attributed to the sanitation

> reforms and nutritional teachings instituted around the

> mid 1800's. For example, water supplies were protected

> from contamination, streets and stables were cleaned,

> sewage was removed (instead of running down the middle

> of the street) and food was delivered while still

fresh.

>

> However, once the smallpox vaccinations became

> mandatory, deaths from the disease steadily increased.

> If fact, record in several countries show that nearly

> every contagious disease (plague, cholera, measles,

> scarlett fever, dysentry, pertussis) EXCEPT SMALLPOX

> declined in number and severity on it's own. " Here are

a

>

> few interesting numbers:

> During a 10 year period ending 1881, 96.5% of babies

> recieve the vaccine. 3708 deaths per million were

> recorded due to smallpox. In 1911, 67.6% vaccinated,

395

>

> deaths pm. In 1921, 42.3%, 12 deaths pm. In 1931,

43.1%,

>

> 25 deaths pm. In 1941, 39.9%, 1 death pm.

>

> Polio.

> " From 1923 to 1953, BEFORE the Salk vaccine was

> introduced, the polio death rate in the US and England

> had already declined on it's own by 47% and 55%.

> Statistics show a similardecline in many other european

> countries as well. And, when the vaccine did become

> available many countris questioned it;s effectiveness

> and refused to systematically innoculate. Yet, polio

> epidemics also ended in these countries. "

> *Neil Z. - Vaccines are they really safe

>and effective?

>

>

>

> Well, that's all I have the energy to respond to right

> now. I would love to continue to " trade " information

> with you, or anyone. I believe that knowlege is power

> and when I disagree with something I learn a lot while

> " checking the facts " . I think we can all really help

> each other, as long as we keep in mind that we should

> not try to dictate our opinions over others, but merely

> present " food for thought " .

> Good night

> Shelby

>

>After this several people stated that this " debate " had gone too far and

>that we should basically keep our opinions to ourselves. The pharmacist

>responded that she would not continue with this debate but she would be

>happy to answer anyone's questions about vaccines. The another mother

posted

>that her son had had cancer and his immune system was destroyed by chemo

and

>that people should consider children like hers before deciding not to

>vaccinate. She said her son would probably be " dead " if it were not for

mass

>inoculations. I don't agree with her - but how could I respond to that

>without seeming like a callous monster? I mean 21 injections with vaccine

>seems like an awful lot to me, but doesn't that just equate to *protection*

>from 11 diseases? Wouldn't it be more likely that her child would get

>something like strep, or staff, or e. coli or any other infection from the

>countless " bugs " around us? What's the chance of him running into someone

>with diphtheria?????

>

>Anyway, sorry to rattle on, I just feel like I have lost a whole group of

>friends because of this issue - like I don't have a right to my opinion!

has

>anyone else run into a situation like this (on-line or in real life?)

>

>Again, I applaud you Rose, and anyone else who has courage to speak up - I

>doubt I ever will again.

>Shelby

>

>PS - sorry again for the book.

>

>

>

>

>Rose s wrote:

>

>> From: Rose s <jstevens@...>

>>

>> Good for you

>> We need more mothers to be as bold as you were to write at the

>> bottom of each form that exemptions are available. Who do these public

>> health people think they are?-- playing God with our children. In Canada

>> , vaccines are voluntary--however they use the same tactics. They don't

>> really tell parents they are voluntary--they ask to see the child's

>> vaccination forms before they enter grade one, so that the naive parent

>> just assumes it is mandatory. We need to be very vocal about this.

>> Encourage other parents to do the same.

>> I started the ball rolling and I now have many converts who are

>> zealots--- just as myself. One mom, who has an autistic child, went into

>> safeway and wrote on the bottom of all the vaccination brochures that

>> the vaccine can cause autism and wrote down some web sites.. What the

>> heck are vaccination brochures doing in a supermarket??

>>

>> Now is the time to speak up and be bold and not be intimidated by

>> the health department's gestapo like tactics.

>> I make sure that I take my cards with me that have vaccine web sites

>> and my goal is to talk to 5 people per day. It really isn't hard. I talk

>> to people in the bank, supermarket, golf course....etc Getting cards

>> printed that say something like this: For Information regarding

>> vaccines risk/benefits see the following web sites...... Are you making

>> informed decisions? I went and had 1000 printed and made a few more

>> converts at the printing place--- while I was at it.

>> Yesterday, I didn't even have to leave my house and I was able to

>> share the vaccine contoversy. My plumber and his assistant came over

>> to fix a septic field problem and I shared with them the whole vaccine

>> issue.They both took some information and are going to give it to their

>> nighbours and they will be putting up our vaccine risk awareness seminar

>> posters in their community. ( hockey arenas, post office and local

>> grocery stores).It just keeps multiplying and each day more and more

>> people hear the controversy and are asking their doctors why they were

>> not given this information before. On my trip to the Common Cause

>> Medical Conference near Ottawa a few weeks ago I happened to sit down

>> beside a pediatrician on the airplane. Of course you know how she

>> responded to my vaccine questions. She said " I am sick and tired of

>> parents coming into my office with that little red book on vaccinations

>> questioning my expertise. I said " do you mean Dr. Veira Scheibner's

>> book? " Yes " she replied! She said " that women is not even a medical

>> doctor and thinks she knows everything on vaccines " . I told her maybe

>> she should take the time to read the book, because everything is well

>> referenced from medical journals. When we switched planes, in Toronto to

>> head on to Ottawa, she avoided me like the plague. I think I challenged

>> her to take another look at the " sacred cow of vaccine philosophy which

>> she had unknowingly sworn an oath to, when she received her medical

>> degree.

>>

>> I believe if we are bold enough to share this information with a few

>> people each day and encourage them to pass the word along---WE CAN WIN

>> THIS WAR! and parents will be making informed decisions!

>>

>> Sincerely

>> Rose 's Winnipeg , Manitoba

>>

>> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/11/99 3:50:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

queenearth@... writes:

> I usually make the opposition (usually unsuspecting

> parents) stop in their tracks when I ask them if they have done research on

> the risks or if they are aware of Vaers.

Hi!

What does Vaers mean?

Thanks,

Becki

[Guest guest]

http://www.whale.to/Vaccines/vaers.html

VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System)

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vaers.htm

Re: Calling all vaccine zealots!LONG!

>From: Rcc58@...

>

>In a message dated 9/11/99 3:50:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

>queenearth@... writes:

>

>> I usually make the opposition (usually unsuspecting

>> parents) stop in their tracks when I ask them if they have done research

on

>> the risks or if they are aware of Vaers.

>

>Hi!

>What does Vaers mean?

>Thanks,

>Becki

>

>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)

http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaers/vaers.htm

What is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)?

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) was created by the Food and

Drug Administration (FDA) and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)

to receive reports about adverse events which may be associated with vaccines.

No prescription drug or biological product, such as a vaccine, is completely

free from side effects. Vaccines protect many people from dangerous illnesses,

but vaccines, like drugs, can cause side effects, a small percentage of which

may be serious. The FDA continually monitors reports to determine whether any

vaccine or vaccine lot has a higher than expected rate of events.

About 85% of vaccine adverse event reports concern relatively minor events, such

as ordinary fevers or redness and swelling at the injection site. The remaining

15% describe serious events, such as seizures, high fevers, life-threatening

illnesses, or deaths. The reports of serious events are of greatest concern to

the FDA and receive the most careful scrutiny.

The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not a documentation that a vaccine

caused the event. With regard to childhood vaccines, over ten million

vaccinations per year are given to children less than one year old, usually

between 2 months and 6 months of age. At this stage of development, infants are

at greatest risk for certain medical events, including high fevers, seizures,

and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Some infants will by coincidence

experience such an event shortly after a vaccination. In such situations, the

event may be caused by an infection, congenital abnormality, injury, or some

other provocation. Because of such coincidences, it is usually not possible to

be sure whether a particular adverse event resulted from a concurrent condition

or from a vaccination, even when it occurred soon afterward. Therefore, doctors

and other vaccine providers are encouraged to report adverse events, whether or

not they believe that the vaccination was the cause. Since it is difficult to

distinguish a coincidental event from one truly caused by a vaccine, the VAERS

database will contain events of both types.

In addition, it is often the case that more than one vaccine was administered,

making it difficult to know to which of the vaccines the event might be

attributed. In analyzing individual reports, we examine the medical information

about the event, and obtain more specific information from the reporting doctors

whenever necessary.

We also analyze patterns of reporting associated with vaccines and vaccine lots.

In analyzing patterns of adverse event reporting, the FDA considers more than

just the number of reports for a lot. More reports will be received for a large

lot than a small one, simply because more doses of vaccine from the large lot

will be given to more children. Some lots contain as many as 700,000 doses,

while others as few as 20,000 doses. Similarly, more reports will be received

for a lot that has been in use for a long time than a lot in use for a short

time. Even among lots of similar size and time in use, some lots will receive

more reports than others simply due to chance. The FDA continually looks for

lots that have received more serious reports that should be expected on the

basis of such factors as size, time in use, and chance variation. When such a

lot is detected, further investigations are initiated to determine if the lot

continues to be safe for use, or if a recall may be needed.

Many complex factors must be considered in order to decide whether a lot of

vaccine is unsafe. At the FDA, we apply procedures and methods of analysis to

help us to understand these complex factors and closely monitor the safety of

vaccines. We continually analyze these many factors to help ensure that all lots

in use are safe. We hope that this brief explanation of the factors associated

with vaccines and adverse events will assist you in understanding the data you

have requested.

The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (NCVIA) requires health care

providers and vaccine manufacturers to report to the Department of Health and

Human Services (DHHS) specific adverse events following the administration of

those vaccines outlined in the Act. DHHS established the Vaccine Adverse Event

Reporting System (VAERS), which is co-administered by the Food and Drug

Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC),

to accept all reports of suspected adverse events, in all age groups, after the

administration of any U.S. licensed vaccine. On November 1, 1990 VAERS replaced

CDC's Monitoring System for Adverse Events Following Immunization (MSAEFI) for

public sector reporting and FDA's Spontaneous Reporting System for private

sector and manufacturer reporting. The primary purpose for maintaining the data

base is to serve as an early warning or signaling system for adverse events not

detected during pre-market testing.

Happy Reading!!

Re: Calling all vaccine zealots!LONG!

>From: Rcc58@...

>

>In a message dated 9/11/99 3:50:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

>queenearth@... writes:

>

>> I usually make the opposition (usually unsuspecting

>> parents) stop in their tracks when I ask them if they have done research on

>> the risks or if they are aware of Vaers.

>

>Hi!

>What does Vaers mean?

>Thanks,

>Becki

>

>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Wow Shelby! FWIW, I think you did a GREAT job in responding. It was killing me

reading her part saying the usual, how vaccines are responsible for the decline

in smallpox (I recently did all the reading on that one) and polio! Wrong!

I am sorry too, that it was all at the expense of making you somewhat of an

" outsider " with your online mommy-friends! Same has happened to me! Seems I

don't have alot in common with them after choosing not to vaccinate. It is so

hard also to read posts about WB checks and which shots and how many they are

getting. It makes me feel nervous and scared for them. I don't know how they

can sleep at night after those. I would be over the baby all night!! Anyway,

just wanted to let you know, you did great, your best and I'm " with you!! "

Sue

Shelby Helm wrote:

> From: Shelby Helm <helminger@...>

>

> Wow Rose, you are much more brave than I am! I had just decided to keep my

> mouth shut and never tell anyone my opinion about vaccines again. I wish I

> had your gumption.

>

> I use the b. boards at babycenter. The women that I talk to are the only

> ones I really know that have babies - and I hang out a lot on the Aug 98

> board. Recently, someone posted about a suspected severe adverse reaction to

> MMR (autism) that her friends child has, so sad. Anyway someone else started

> a thread asking everyone's opinion on vaccines. Most people stated that

> their kid ws fully vaccinated because that's what you're supposed to do. I

> had to go and open my big moth and say that I wasn't going to vaccinate

> anymore and briefly stated 3 reason: 1 no proof of effectiveness, 2.

> vaccines are dangerous, 3. Vaccines can harm the immune system and aren't

> necessary.

>

> Well, a few people had a problem with my post. One suggested I wasn't

> *protecting* my child like parents are supposed to do. One stated she has a

> BS in biology and couldn't see any way possible that vaccines could *harm*

> the immune system. Another decided to start a new thread with her

> " professional " opinion - she's a pharmacist! (What special information does

> a pharmacist have on vaccines - I thought these people moved pills from a

> big bottle into a small bottle all day!). Anyway, she felt the need to

> " clarify " my errors.

>

> Here's her post:

>

> I apologize if it seems like I am rehashing this vaccine

>

> issue, but as a pharmacist and scientist I think it is

> VERY important to be informed about the importance of

> vaccinating your children. There is a lot of

> anti-vaccine propaganda both in the news and especially

> on the web. Unfortunately a number of " facts " get

> misconstrued and blown out of proportion, and the

> scientific community has been slow to respond and is

> only now scrambling to ensure that people are properly

> informed. To clarify some of the concerns that have

> been brought up on previous posts, I would like to

> address some common misconceptions:

> 1) " There is no proof that vaccines are effective "

> It is true that no vaccine is 100% effective, however

> they are between 70% and 95% effective depending on the

> disease. This actually supports the argument that

> children must be vaccinated to protect the population at

>

> large. There are some people in whom vaccinations do

> not take effect, as well as others who cannot be

> vaccinated due to existing disease states. These people

>

> will not be protected against disease unless the rest of

>

> the population are vaccinated. In the case of myself, I

>

> do not form antibodies to Rubella vaccine (I have been

> vaccinated 3 times), so I depend on others to get the

> vaccine. If you choose not to vaccinate your child, and

>

> your child develops Rubella, which is a very mild

> disease, your child could pass this on to someone like

> me. If that someone is pregnant, they have a VERY high

> chance of having a baby with serious birth defects. The

>

> reason for the Rubella vaccine is to protect pregnant

> women, not to protect the child being vaccinated.

> There was a statement in another post that a

> study by the World Health Organization (WHO) showed that

>

> children vaccinated against measles are 14 times more

> likely to get it. Logically, this does not make sense

> as most of us have been vaccinated, and we don't often

> see measles. In fact the WHO is a strong advocate for

> vaccination, and states that measles is no longer

> considered an " indigenous " disease of the USA. For the

> WHO website on vaccine safety go to

> www.who.int/gpv-safety/

>

> 2) " There are reports of outbreaks of disease occurring

> in populations which are vaccinated "

> Imagine how much more devastating these outbreaks would

> have been if these people were not vaccinated. In the

> example of measles, this is a VERY contagious disease,

> whereby almost 100% of those exposed to the disease who

> are not vaccinated will get the disease. If the vaccine

>

> is only 90% effective, then in a high school of 1000

> students, you might expect 100 students to develop

> measles. If none of these students had been vaccinated,

>

> then the rate of disease could have been 1000 students.

>

> 3) " Vaccines themselves are dangerous "

> Vaccines are actually very safe, despite reports to the

> contrary in the anti-vaccine literature. The vast

> majority of vaccine adverse reactions are minor and

> temporary like fever or a sore arm/leg. This is

> expected, as you are introducing a small part of the

> virus into the body and asking the immune system to

> react to it. I consider a mild reaction a sign that the

>

> vaccine is taking effect. More serious effects occur

> rarely, on the order of one per 300,000 doses and most

> are so rare, their incidence is thought to be

> coincidental with the vaccine. More recently, there

> have been news reports linking vaccines to autism and

> Crohn's disease. The American Pediatric Society have

> dismissed this research and pointed out numerous

> problems with the study and in fact the researchers

> themselves do not suggest a causal link, but suggest

> more studies need to be conducted. Epidemiological

> evidence has found no link between SIDS and vaccination.

>

> It happens that most children get vaccinated at an age

>

> when SIDS is most likely to occur, thus the link is

> coincidental. (I would, however, agree that we cannot

> blindly accept this and studies should be, and are,

> ongoing.)

> Just because a side effect is reported, does not

>

> necessarily link it with the vaccine. When I worked as

> a pharmacist, I was often called upon to fill in adverse

>

> reaction reports, and we would file the reaction with

> any drug that the patient happened to be taking at the

> time. Thus, there are many more side effects reported

> than are necessarily occurring with a particular drug or

>

> vaccine.

> The SV-40 virus which was talked about in an

> earlier post was found in several lots of polio vaccine

> in the 1950's and 1960's. As of 1962, vaccines have

> been stringently tested for any kind of foreign

> contamination, and due to biological technology in the

> past 10 years, these tests are now 100% accurate. It

> should also be noted that viral DNA makes up a large

> percent of human DNA, and other mammalian DNA, and has

> been incorporated in our genomes through evolution. The

>

> SV-40 virus and other viral DNA have been linked with

> cancer formation in certain studies, but many more

> studies have found no links at all.

>

> 4) " Our immune system needs the exercise, therefore we

> should not vaccinate "

> Vaccination is the introduction of foreign material into

>

> the body with the purpose of STIMULATING an immune

> response. This actually makes our immune system

> stronger, and is one of the most natural ways to prevent

>

> viral diseases. Before vaccines, most children would

> get mumps and measles, then be immune to the disease.

> However, along with these diseases came serious

> consequences such as infertility, blindness and death.

> We are no more equipped medically to treat these

> diseases now than we were in the 1800's.

>

> Vaccines DO work and here is some evidence:

> -Through mass vaccine efforts smallpox has been

> eradicated for the planet

> -Polio has been eliminated from the Americas

> -We have control of diseases which used to kill large

> numbers of people

> -Great Britain allowed a cutback on vaccination against

> pertussis in the 1970's, and resulted in and epidemic of

>

> 100 000 cases of pertussis within the next 4 years.

> This has been seen in Japan and Sweden as well,

> resulting in huge jumps in pertussis rates. There is a

> major epidemic of diptheria now taking place in the

> former Soviet Union due to low primary immunization

> rates resulting in an increase from 839 cases in 1989 to

>

> 50,000 with 1700 deaths in 1994, with the number of

> cases increasing by 2- to 10-fold each year.

>

> I beg you to PLEASE get your babies vaccinated. If you

> leave it until they start school, the effectiveness of

> the vaccine is decreased. By trying to protect your

> child from side effects, you are putting thousands of

> other children who can't get vaccinated, either due to

> diseases, immune system problems etc, at serious risk.

> Many children such as those with transplants or diseases

>

> such as AIDS have no other protection and will die if

> they are passed these diseases.

>

> It is important to be informed about side effects and I

> encourage you to ask your Dr. and read (I can give

> anyone some good web sites about vaccines). I think

> that it is important to encourage researchers to work on

>

> safer vaccines with fewer or no side effects, but please

>

> take a lot of this anti-vaccine propaganda with a grain

> of salt. For every story about a child who has serious

> side effects to a vaccine, I can find you one about a

> child who has suffered or died from one of these

> preventable diseases.

>

> I apologize if I offend anyone, because I know that

> everyone has their own views. I just think it is

> important to have both sides of the issue expressed.

>

> Tonia

>

> Anyway, a lot of other mother have gushed and thanked her for putting their

> fears to rest. I was a little offended by her post because it was a direct

> response to mine - but yet she couldn't even address me by name (Keep in

> mind this is ALWAYS a VERY friendly bulletin board - many people have been

> communicating here sine conception and now our babies are over a year old)

>

> Well, like I said it kind of annoyed me, especially since she was portraying

> her " professional " opinion as FACT. I should have let it go, but I didn't. I

> decided that she had as much right to her opinion as I do and it might do us

> both some good to trade information. So I responded and added my own

> " corrections " As follows:

>

> Tonia, it was not my intention to " debate " this issue

> here, I only wanted to give my honest answer to a posted

>

> question, just like everyone else. Nor was it my

> intention to give medical advice, try to change anyone's

>

> mind about vaccines, or cause any sleepless nights. I

> simply wanted to express that a vaccination is a

> medical procedure - and therefore not to be taken

> lightly. I am not " anti-vaccine " , I think very few

> people are. I simply wanted to point out that that we

> should educate ourselves before we decide. Whatever

> choice you make, you are accepting some sort of risk -

> the decision is which risk you are more comfortable

> with.

>

> I have thought long and hard about my decision (and

> still am), there is a lot more to do with the decision

> to not vaccinate than avoidance of possible adverse

> reactions (the rarity of which are highly debatable).

> For me, there are many factors, not the least of which

> is a type of spirituality. I believe that we (man) get

> ourselves into the deepest trouble when we try to

> improve upon this perfect earth we were given. Who are

> we to, first of all, decide when something needs to be

> eradicated, and second of all, think that we can

> actually do it. And, if we are successful - what will

> takes it's place? Maybe something benign, maybe

> something twice as harmful. I concluded that I would

> rather err on the side of nature, to allow my child's

> immune system (with the help of good nutrition, hygiene,

>

> and rest) fight off these natural illnesses and become

> stronger because of the accomplishment. This is a very

> personal decision for me, one I assure you I did not

> reach by reading propaganda on Joe's Vaccine Page.

>

> The point I am trying to make is; we must all learn as

> much about this issue as we can. An informed decision is

>

> always the right one - no matter what you decide. As

> Tonya (TCouch) said (quoting a Chinese philosopher I

> believe) " the answer lies somewhere in the middle " .

>

> I should probably let it rest with that, but I can't.

> While I agree with a lot, there are a few things in your

>

> " clarification " that I disagree with. I hope you don't

> mind if I " pick at it " a little.

>

> First of all (I put it first because I think it really

> important and perhaps the heart of the issue),

> " Vaccination is the introduction of foreign material

> into the body with the purpose of STIMULATING and immune

>

> response. This actually makes the immune system

> stronger " The following is taken from How Vaccination

> Work, by Philip F. Incao, MD.

>

> <<In order to use vaccinations wisely, we need to

> understand exactly how they work. Until recently, the

> " mechanism of action " of vaccinations was always

> understood to be simply that they cause an increase

>

> in antibody levels (titers) against a specific disease

> antigen (bacterium or virus), thus preventing

> " infection " with that bacterial or viral antigen.

>

> In recent years science has learned that the human

> immune system is much more complicated than we thought.

> It is composed of two functional

> branches or compartments which may work together in

>

> a mutually cooperative way or in a mutually antagonistic

>

> way depending on the health of the

> individual.

>

> One branch is the humoral immune system (or Th2

> function) which primarily produces antibodies in the

> blood circulation as a sensing or recognizing

> function of the immune system to the presence of

> foreign antigens in the body. The other branch is the

> cellular or cell-mediated immune system (or Th1

> function) which primarily destroys, digests and

> expels foreign antigens out of the body through the

> activity of its cells found in the thymus, tonsils,

> adenoids, spleen, lymph nodes and lymph system

> throughout the body. This process of destroying,

> digesting and discharging foreign antigens from the

> body is known as " the acute inflammatory response "

> and is often accompanied by the classic signs of

> inflammation: fever, pain, malaise and discharge of

> mucus, pus, skin rash or diarrhea.

>

> These two functional branches of the immune system

> may be compared to the two functions in eating: tasting

> and recognizing the food on the one hand,

> and digesting the food and eliminating the food

> waste on the other hand. In the same way, the humoral or

>

> Th2 branch of the immune system " tastes " and

> recognizes and even remembers foreign antigens and

> the cellular or Th1 branch of the immune system digests

> and eliminates the foreign antigens from

> the body. But just as too much repeated tasting of

> food will ruin the appetite, so also too much repeated

> stimulation of the " tasting " humoral immune

> system by an antigen will inhibit and suppress the

> digesting and eliminating function of the cellular

> immune system. In other words, overstimulating

> antibody production can suppress the acute

> inflammatory response of the cellular immune system! 1

>

> This explains the polar opposite relationship

> between acute discharging inflammations on the one hand

> and allergies and auto-immune inflammations on

> the other hand. The more a person has of one, the

> less he or she will have of the other!

>

> A growing number of scientists believe that the

> increase in America, Europe, Australia and Japan in

> allergic and auto-immune diseases (which stimulate

> the humoral or Th2 branch of the immune system) is

> caused by the lack of stimulation of the cellular or the

>

> Th1 branch of the immune system from the

> lack of acute inflammatory responses and discharges

>

> in childhood. 2 3 4 5 We need to identify the factors

> which cause this shift in the function of the

> immune system or which cause allergies and

> auto-immune diseases in childhood to increase!

>

> If we now return to the original question of the

> mechanism of action of vaccinations, we find what I

> believe is the key to the puzzle. A vaccination

> consists of introducing a disease agent or disease

> antigen into an individual’s body without causing the

> disease. If the disease agent provoked the whole

> immune system into action it would cause all the

> symptoms of the disease! The symptoms of a disease are

> primarily the symptoms (fever, pain, malaise,

> loss of function) of the acute inflammatory

> response to the disease.

>

> So the trick of a vaccination is to stimulate the

> immune system just enough so that it makes antibodies

> and " remembers " the disease antigen but not so

> much that it provokes an acute inflammatory

> response by the cellular immune system and makes us sick

>

> with the disease we’re trying to prevent! Thus a

> vaccination works by stimulating very much the

> antibody production (Th2) and by stimulating very little

>

> or not at all the digesting and discharging

> function of the cellular immune system (Th1).

>

> Vaccine antigens are designed to be " unprovocative "

>

> or " indigestible " for the cellular immune system (Th1)

> and highly stimulating for the

> antibody-mediated humoral immune system (Th2).

>

> Perhaps it is not difficult to see then why the

> repeated use of vaccinations would tend to shift the

> functional balance of the immune system toward the

> antibody-producing side (Th2) and away from the

> acute inflammatory discharging side (the cell-mediated

> side or Th1). This has been confirmed by

> observation especially in the case of Gulf War

> Illness: most vaccinations cause a shift in immune

> function from the Th1 side (acute inflammatory

> discharging response) to the Th2 side (chronic

> auto-immune or allergic response). 6

>

> The outcome of this line of thought is that,

> contrary to previous belief, vaccinations do not

> strengthen or " boost " the whole immune system. Instead

> vaccinations overstimulate the " tasting and

> remembering " function of the antibody-mediated branch of

>

> the immune system (Th2) which simultaneously

> suppresses the cellular immune system (Th1) thus

> " preventing " the disease in question.

>

> What in reality is prevented is not the disease but

>

> the ability of our cellular immune system to manifest,

> to respond to and to overcome the disease!

>

> There is no system of the human being, from mind to

>

> muscles to immune system, which gets stronger through

> avoiding challenges, but only through

> overcoming challenges. The wise use of vaccinations

>

> would be to use them selectively, and not on a mass

> scale. In order for vaccinations to be helpful

> and not harmful, we must know beforehand in each

> individual to be vaccinated whether the Th1 function or

> the Th2 function of the immune system

> predominates.

>

> In individuals in whom the Th1 function

> predominates, causing many acute inflammations because

> the cellular immune system is overreactive, a

> vaccination could have a balancing effect on the

> immune system and be helpful for that individual.

>

> In individuals in whom the Th2 function

> predominates, causing few acute inflammations but rather

>

> the tendency to chronic allergic or autoimmune

> inflammations, a vaccination would cause the Th2

> function to predominate even more, aggravating the

> imbalance of the immune system and harming the

> health of that individual. >>

>

> There are many other journal articles and studies on how

>

> vaccines affect the immune system, try a Medline search

> on vaccination and immune malfunction. However there are

>

> no studies ( pro or con) that study the long-term effect

>

> of vaccines.

>

> Secondly, " a study by the World Health Organization

> (WHO) showed that children vaccinated against measles

> are 14 times more likely to get it. Logically, this

> does not make sense as most of us have been vaccinated,

> and we don't often see measles. " Well, I didn't perform

> the study I only quoted it. The logic, it seems to me,

> is this: Measles is no longer an indigenous disease to

> the US - so it would be very unlikely to " catch " the

> wild virus. However, any vaccine has the ability (or

> side effect) to cause the disease it is supposed to

> prevent. So, like polio, the disease is more likely to

> infect people who are vaccinated since they are more

> likely to be exposed to it. As the WHO reported, 14

> times more likely.

>

> " Vaccines are actually very safe " . While I agree that

> for many, vaccines are safe (cause no known adverse

> reactions), however, for many they are not. Our system

> of mass innoculation is what many " anti-vaccine " people

> have a problem with. How different people react to the

> substances in vaccines greatly varies. For example: a

> major contraindication to the MMR vaccine is severe

> allergy to egg. many Peds recommend not giving egg at

> all before 1 year (like mine), many also give the MMR

> shot at one year - so how do they know the baby will not

>

> have an anaphylactic reaction? Also, many ingredients in

>

> vaccines are toxic, no matter how you look at it.

>

> Thimerosal (mercury disinfectant / preservative) All

> toxoids including tetanus, DTP, HepB and Hib contain

> thimerosal. many people have developed allergic

> sensativities to thimerisol through repeated exposure to

>

> vaccination. It is estimated to be about 9% (Schafer et

> al., 1995)

>

> Aluminum (added to promote antibody response)

> Aluminum has been implacated as a cause of barin damage

> and the accompanying symptoms of demetia, Alheimers

> disease, seizures and comas. The asociation of aluminum

> with neurologic symptoms is especially significant,

> since the aluminum-absorbed vaccine, DTP, had been

> proven to cause these symptoms as well.

>

> Formaldehyde (disinfectant)

> Causes cancer. It is considered hazardous waste by the

> EPA and no longer permitted as an ingredient in building

>

> insulation. At least 19 studies have revealed an

> association between leukemia and cancer of the brain and

>

> colon with formaldehyde exposure.

>

> Phenol (disinfectant, dye)

> Ethylene Glycol (antifreeze)

> Benzethonium chloride (antiseptic)

> Methylparaben (antifungal, preservative)

>

> What's most disturbing to me, is that these things are

> injected right into the blood stream (bypassing all of

> the bodies natural defenses and a major portion of the

> immune system), many times into an infant who does not

> yet have a developed immune system. I have seen it

> stated that the immune system is not fully developed

> until 12 years, sometimes younger, never younger than 2.

>

> " Vaccines DO work and here is some evidence:

> -Through mass vaccine efforts smallpox has been

> eradicated for the planet " " Official statistics from

> many

> countries indicate that smallpox (ant other communicable

>

> diseases) were declining before vaccination programs

> were enforced. This can be attributed to the sanitation

> reforms and nutritional teachings instituted around the

> mid 1800's. For example, water supplies were protected

> from contamination, streets and stables were cleaned,

> sewage was removed (instead of running down the middle

> of the street) and food was delivered while still fresh.

>

> However, once the smallpox vaccinations became

> mandatory, deaths from the disease steadily increased.

> If fact, record in several countries show that nearly

> every contagious disease (plague, cholera, measles,

> scarlett fever, dysentry, pertussis) EXCEPT SMALLPOX

> declined in number and severity on it's own. " Here are a

>

> few interesting numbers:

> During a 10 year period ending 1881, 96.5% of babies

> recieve the vaccine. 3708 deaths per million were

> recorded due to smallpox. In 1911, 67.6% vaccinated, 395

>

> deaths pm. In 1921, 42.3%, 12 deaths pm. In 1931, 43.1%,

>

> 25 deaths pm. In 1941, 39.9%, 1 death pm.

>

> Polio.

> " From 1923 to 1953, BEFORE the Salk vaccine was

> introduced, the polio death rate in the US and England

> had already declined on it's own by 47% and 55%.

> Statistics show a similardecline in many other european

> countries as well. And, when the vaccine did become

> available many countris questioned it;s effectiveness

> and refused to systematically innoculate. Yet, polio

> epidemics also ended in these countries. "

> *Neil Z. - Vaccines are they really safe

> and effective?

>

> Well, that's all I have the energy to respond to right

> now. I would love to continue to " trade " information

> with you, or anyone. I believe that knowlege is power

> and when I disagree with something I learn a lot while

> " checking the facts " . I think we can all really help

> each other, as long as we keep in mind that we should

> not try to dictate our opinions over others, but merely

> present " food for thought " .

> Good night

> Shelby

>

> After this several people stated that this " debate " had gone too far and

> that we should basically keep our opinions to ourselves. The pharmacist

> responded that she would not continue with this debate but she would be

> happy to answer anyone's questions about vaccines. The another mother posted

> that her son had had cancer and his immune system was destroyed by chemo and

> that people should consider children like hers before deciding not to

> vaccinate. She said her son would probably be " dead " if it were not for mass

> inoculations. I don't agree with her - but how could I respond to that

> without seeming like a callous monster? I mean 21 injections with vaccine

> seems like an awful lot to me, but doesn't that just equate to *protection*

> from 11 diseases? Wouldn't it be more likely that her child would get

> something like strep, or staff, or e. coli or any other infection from the

> countless " bugs " around us? What's the chance of him running into someone

> with diphtheria?????

>

> Anyway, sorry to rattle on, I just feel like I have lost a whole group of

> friends because of this issue - like I don't have a right to my opinion! has

> anyone else run into a situation like this (on-line or in real life?)

>

> Again, I applaud you Rose, and anyone else who has courage to speak up - I

> doubt I ever will again.

> Shelby

>

> PS - sorry again for the book.

>

> Rose s wrote:

>

> > From: Rose s <jstevens@...>

> >

> > Good for you

> > We need more mothers to be as bold as you were to write at the

> > bottom of each form that exemptions are available. Who do these public

> > health people think they are?-- playing God with our children. In Canada

> > , vaccines are voluntary--however they use the same tactics. They don't

> > really tell parents they are voluntary--they ask to see the child's

> > vaccination forms before they enter grade one, so that the naive parent

> > just assumes it is mandatory. We need to be very vocal about this.

> > Encourage other parents to do the same.

> > I started the ball rolling and I now have many converts who are

> > zealots--- just as myself. One mom, who has an autistic child, went into

> > safeway and wrote on the bottom of all the vaccination brochures that

> > the vaccine can cause autism and wrote down some web sites.. What the

> > heck are vaccination brochures doing in a supermarket??

> >

> > Now is the time to speak up and be bold and not be intimidated by

> > the health department's gestapo like tactics.

> > I make sure that I take my cards with me that have vaccine web sites

> > and my goal is to talk to 5 people per day. It really isn't hard. I talk

> > to people in the bank, supermarket, golf course....etc Getting cards

> > printed that say something like this: For Information regarding

> > vaccines risk/benefits see the following web sites...... Are you making

> > informed decisions? I went and had 1000 printed and made a few more

> > converts at the printing place--- while I was at it.

> > Yesterday, I didn't even have to leave my house and I was able to

> > share the vaccine contoversy. My plumber and his assistant came over

> > to fix a septic field problem and I shared with them the whole vaccine

> > issue.They both took some information and are going to give it to their

> > nighbours and they will be putting up our vaccine risk awareness seminar

> > posters in their community. ( hockey arenas, post office and local

> > grocery stores).It just keeps multiplying and each day more and more

> > people hear the controversy and are asking their doctors why they were

> > not given this information before. On my trip to the Common Cause

> > Medical Conference near Ottawa a few weeks ago I happened to sit down

> > beside a pediatrician on the airplane. Of course you know how she

> > responded to my vaccine questions. She said " I am sick and tired of

> > parents coming into my office with that little red book on vaccinations

> > questioning my expertise. I said " do you mean Dr. Veira Scheibner's

> > book? " Yes " she replied! She said " that women is not even a medical

> > doctor and thinks she knows everything on vaccines " . I told her maybe

> > she should take the time to read the book, because everything is well

> > referenced from medical journals. When we switched planes, in Toronto to

> > head on to Ottawa, she avoided me like the plague. I think I challenged

> > her to take another look at the " sacred cow of vaccine philosophy which

> > she had unknowingly sworn an oath to, when she received her medical

> > degree.

> >

> > I believe if we are bold enough to share this information with a few

> > people each day and encourage them to pass the word along---WE CAN WIN

> > THIS WAR! and parents will be making informed decisions!

> >

> > Sincerely

> > Rose 's Winnipeg , Manitoba

> >

> > ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Sue, thank you so much, how nice! I know what you mean about just not having

anything in common with people once you know vaccination status. I've tried to

just

ignore this issue and go back, but I can't. It's funny, we have easily discussed

whether we breastfeed or use formula, co-sleep or use cribs, cry it out or

not...

and many other " issues " with no problems. I guess that as heated as these issues

can

get - vaccination is ten-fold.

BTW, another person from the bb just e-mailed me that a lot of Tonia's post is

taken directly from CDC propaganda from 1996, written for doctors to give to

concerned parents. She included the link just for kicks

http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu00.html

The funny thing is there are a least 3 different entire threads about people

concerned about different vaccine reactions from the 12 month checkups. Also,

there

are always a flurry of posts right around WB check up times - people wondering

if

any shots are due, which ones, etc. Then when you actually try to offer them

information - they are offended. Oh well, I guess some people just don't want to

know. Now THAT would cause me to have sleepless nights ;-)

shelby

sue wrote:

> From: sue <sue@...>

>

> Wow Shelby! FWIW, I think you did a GREAT job in responding. It was killing

me

> reading her part saying the usual, how vaccines are responsible for the

decline

> in smallpox (I recently did all the reading on that one) and polio! Wrong!

> I am sorry too, that it was all at the expense of making you somewhat of an

> " outsider " with your online mommy-friends! Same has happened to me! Seems I

> don't have alot in common with them after choosing not to vaccinate. It is so

> hard also to read posts about WB checks and which shots and how many they are

> getting. It makes me feel nervous and scared for them. I don't know how they

> can sleep at night after those. I would be over the baby all night!! Anyway,

> just wanted to let you know, you did great, your best and I'm " with you!! "

>

> Sue

>

>