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Re: OT: birth certificates

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Thanks, Cheryl, for your reply, and thanks to the rest of you as well for your

thoughts on this. Like I said, we do plan to get the b.c., but any time I'm

dealing with filing any sort of info with the government I always get this

twinge

of " do I REALLY want to do this? " , which I suspect many of you understand.

It's been my experience that the less they know about me, the better.

I find the Foreman thing highly amusing, as well. It takes a peculiar

kind of courage/hutzpah to do something like that. You know, when Zappa

was asked why he named his son Dweezil, he said " What do you want me to name

him, BOB??? " (No offense to any Bobs.)

>Cheryl Overley, whose little libertarian vent took us far afield ;-)

I like these libertarian field trips.

Aubin

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Hi,

My husband has been following a person in the United States that does

not have a SS # and has been suing everyone that does not let him get what

he needs without it. He has won everyone of his cases. If I

can find any more info on this I will let you know. But I think it

is great. Yes you may not get a tax deduction but he doesn't have

to pay taxes either. No way of tracking him.......

Penny

Mother of Austin

Michigan

Cheryl Overley wrote:

From: Cheryl Overley <cheryl@...>

I'll try to respond to all the b/c posts in this one post.

> "Aubin Parrish"<parrish1@...> wrote:

> ...Aside from the obvious of

> being less trackable by the gov., what advantages would there

be to not having

> a birth certificate?

We've gotten b/c on all three of our children so I don't know personally.

Reasons other people cite are yours (being less trackable by the

government) and the theory cpeter8743@... shares about the

certificate imply giving the government a legal foothold into your

family. I

looked into not getting a b/c when my third was born but all I

could find

was paranoid propaganda written by some militants. Their

message

didn't resonate with me. (Kind of like people who think vaccines

are

safe because the only opposition they hear is from those who vaccines

are

the tool of a small group whose goal is to exterminate the human

race--no

common ground.) Only time will whow us if we made the right

decision.

> ...Is there truly a need?

The only "needs" I've found for a b/c are to get a social security

number

(you need this if you want to claim your children as tax deductions

or if

your children want to pay social security taxes--very value laden

judgements ;-) ) obtaining a passport, and getting a marriage

license

(considering states aren't prosecuting people for shacking up and

the

Marvin vs Mitchelson (?) case established the payment off 'palimony',

I

see no legal problems from having a religious but not civil wedding

ceremony--in some countries these are two entirely different ceremonies.)

Some schools require b/cs and some don't.

> Presumably, without

> one there is also no social security number, without which there

wouldn't be

> a way to get credit cards, etc., and of course those aren't really

necessary

> but our society makes things difficult if you don't have any

credit cards, even

> if you never use them for revolving credit.

As cpeter8743@...'s comments about the very limited legal uses

for a social security number are 100% correct I won't expound further.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> beebemcel@... wrote:

> ..... i'm not sure about a passport and

> drivers license (if you can use other things to show proof of

who you are??).

I've not heard of a way around the passport issue but you can get

an

international driver's license without a b/c.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> "Sherri-Lee" <slp@...> wrote:

> I live in Canada so I know our "rules" will be a

> bit different, but I heard here (can't remember where) that if

we didn't

> register our child within "X" number of days, the government

would "name" my

> child, register him/ her and then send us the birth cert (and

bill I am

> sure) this makes my skin crawl!!!

Oh, my! Imagine if there were an obscure law that had been

slipped in

stating all babies whose births weren't certified would be named

Pierre

Trudeau, Mulroney, or (based of course on the

child's ethnic background.) LOL Please be assured I'm

not mocking you.

I am enthralled with the difference between what people "have"

to do and

what they "think" they have to do. I'm think Forman's

naming four

of his sons Forman is an absolute hoot! That revealed

to me social

conventions I held so unquestioningly that I never realized I held

them.

> Expeccially when I see that the "original"

> birth certs in our country say on the back that this a reciept...

meaning

> that they just took your kids life and gave you a reciept for

him ICK!

I agree. That sounds scary.

Some people brought this up on a UAHB list I used to be on.

When we

all shared our experience we realized that some states have a generic

form

they use through their state and in other states it's up to each

county what

information to include and/or require. We had no Canadian

input though.

I think I covered the rest of your comments/questions in my response

to

other posters. If I missed something just ask again and I'll

respond. :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> cpeter8743@... wrote:

> ...., SS #s can not be used or required in this manner.

They are for tax

> purposes only.

That and of course the payment of social security benefits.

> Your state may ask for them, and make it sound like they are

> required, but I believe according to federal code they can't

make you give

> it, and there are several court cases to back this up.

Of course there are

> only a few states where someone actually had the guts to question

it (such as

> California).

Please correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I looked

into this.)

My understanding was these cases were in federal court and appeal

only

to the first level so, until overturned or upheld at a supreme

court level,

these rulings carry the weight of law not in a few states but in

a few

regions. I don't recall which regions but I am sure just

about any federal

court couldn't legally find any other way.

Cheryl Overley, whose little libertarian vent took us far

afield ;-)

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In a message dated 3/10/2000 5:36:43 PM Central Standard Time,

slp@... writes:

<< I would LOVE to hear more about this.... the fact is that the only

legitimate use for a social insurance (security) number is for tax purposes

and for old age pensions. Other than that you do not have to provide your

number to anyone.

Sherri-Lee >>

Actually, the only legit reason is for tax purposes. The *pension* is not

connected to your tax payments. The tax payments go directly to the Fed

Reserve (a private corporation) into a non-descript account. Social security

payments are based solely on what congress and the fed reserve decide to pay

and how and when. They can stop paying any time they choose. What you pay

in taxes has not a whole lot to do with what you are paid. It is basically a

*gift*. Well, I correct myself -- you most likely wouldn't get *social

security* if you didn't have a number, but other than that one has nothing to

do with the other.

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In a message dated 3/10/2000 7:22:58 PM Central Standard Time,

slp@... writes:

<< So if you don't file then you have no reason to have a social security

number? >>

Exactly. It's a Tax ID number. Period. I know people who don't file. Many

still pay SS taxes, as they haven't worked themselves out of *the system*

yet. And I know several who quit using it years ago and are still getting up

every morning in their homes. So it is possible. Just depends on how much

effort you want to put into it, and how prepared you are for the boulders in

the road.

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Hi Penny,

I would LOVE to hear more about this.... the fact is that the only legitimate use for a social insurance (security) number is for tax purposes and for old age pensions. Other than that you do not have to provide your number to anyone.

Sherri-Lee

Re: OT: birth certificates

Hi, My husband has been following a person in the United States that does not have a SS # and has been suing everyone that does not let him get what he needs without it. He has won everyone of his cases. If I can find any more info on this I will let you know. But I think it is great. Yes you may not get a tax deduction but he doesn't have to pay taxes either. No way of tracking him....... Penny Mother of Austin Michigan Cheryl Overley wrote: From: Cheryl Overley <cheryl@...> I'll try to respond to all the b/c posts in this one post. > "Aubin Parrish"<parrish1@...> wrote: > ...Aside from the obvious of > being less trackable by the gov., what advantages would there be to not having > a birth certificate? We've gotten b/c on all three of our children so I don't know personally. Reasons other people cite are yours (being less trackable by the government) and the theory cpeter8743@... shares about the certificate imply giving the government a legal foothold into your family. I looked into not getting a b/c when my third was born but all I could find was paranoid propaganda written by some militants. Their message didn't resonate with me. (Kind of like people who think vaccines are safe because the only opposition they hear is from those who vaccines are the tool of a small group whose goal is to exterminate the human race--no common ground.) Only time will whow us if we made the right decision. > ...Is there truly a need? The only "needs" I've found for a b/c are to get a social security number (you need this if you want to claim your children as tax deductions or if your children want to pay social security taxes--very value laden judgements ;-) ) obtaining a passport, and getting a marriage license (considering states aren't prosecuting people for shacking up and the Marvin vs Mitchelson (?) case established the payment off 'palimony', I see no legal problems from having a religious but not civil wedding ceremony--in some countries these are two entirely different ceremonies.) Some schools require b/cs and some don't. > Presumably, without > one there is also no social security number, without which there wouldn't be > a way to get credit cards, etc., and of course those aren't really necessary > but our society makes things difficult if you don't have any credit cards, even > if you never use them for revolving credit. As cpeter8743@...'s comments about the very limited legal uses for a social security number are 100% correct I won't expound further. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > beebemcel@... wrote: > ..... i'm not sure about a passport and > drivers license (if you can use other things to show proof of who you are??). I've not heard of a way around the passport issue but you can get an international driver's license without a b/c. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Sherri-Lee" <slp@...> wrote: > I live in Canada so I know our "rules" will be a > bit different, but I heard here (can't remember where) that if we didn't > register our child within "X" number of days, the government would "name" my > child, register him/ her and then send us the birth cert (and bill I am > sure) this makes my skin crawl!!! Oh, my! Imagine if there were an obscure law that had been slipped in stating all babies whose births weren't certified would be named Pierre Trudeau, Mulroney, or (based of course on the child's ethnic background.) LOL Please be assured I'm not mocking you. I am enthralled with the difference between what people "have" to do and what they "think" they have to do. I'm think Forman's naming four of his sons Forman is an absolute hoot! That revealed to me social conventions I held so unquestioningly that I never realized I held them. > Expeccially when I see that the "original" > birth certs in our country say on the back that this a reciept... meaning > that they just took your kids life and gave you a reciept for him ICK! I agree. That sounds scary. Some people brought this up on a UAHB list I used to be on. When we all shared our experience we realized that some states have a generic form they use through their state and in other states it's up to each county what information to include and/or require. We had no Canadian input though. I think I covered the rest of your comments/questions in my response to other posters. If I missed something just ask again and I'll respond. :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > cpeter8743@... wrote: > ...., SS #s can not be used or required in this manner. They are for tax > purposes only. That and of course the payment of social security benefits. > Your state may ask for them, and make it sound like they are > required, but I believe according to federal code they can't make you give > it, and there are several court cases to back this up. Of course there are > only a few states where someone actually had the guts to question it (such as > California). Please correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I looked into this.) My understanding was these cases were in federal court and appeal only to the first level so, until overturned or upheld at a supreme court level, these rulings carry the weight of law not in a few states but in a few regions. I don't recall which regions but I am sure just about any federal court couldn't legally find any other way. Cheryl Overley, whose little libertarian vent took us far afield ;-)

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Hi I should have been more clear... since I am in Canada they do have a lot

to do with old age pension here.... luckily for me it probably won't exist

anymore when I am ready to retire as it is going broke! LOL... just one less

reason to have a social insurance number:)

Thanks for the thoughts,

Sherri-Lee

Re: OT: birth certificates

> From: cpeter8743@...

>

> In a message dated 3/10/2000 5:36:43 PM Central Standard Time,

> slp@... writes:

>

> << I would LOVE to hear more about this.... the fact is that the only

> legitimate use for a social insurance (security) number is for tax

purposes

> and for old age pensions. Other than that you do not have to provide your

> number to anyone.

>

> Sherri-Lee >>

> Actually, the only legit reason is for tax purposes. The *pension* is not

> connected to your tax payments. The tax payments go directly to the Fed

> Reserve (a private corporation) into a non-descript account. Social

security

> payments are based solely on what congress and the fed reserve decide to

pay

> and how and when. They can stop paying any time they choose. What you

pay

> in taxes has not a whole lot to do with what you are paid. It is

basically a

> *gift*. Well, I correct myself -- you most likely wouldn't get *social

> security* if you didn't have a number, but other than that one has nothing

to

> do with the other.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Hi again, sorry for the second post one question:

> From: cpeter8743@...

>

> Actually, the only legit reason is for tax purposes.

So if you don't file then you have no reason to have a social security

number?

Thanks,

Sherri-Lee

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Hi there,

There is quite a movement here in Canada and in the States for people who

want to break free of the system. It has happened successfully (defined as

not having been prosecuted... yet) and unsuccessfully (Ed McCabe comes to

mind initially). It is an interesting area to look into and once you do man

you will never believe that the government is " of and for the people " again

and you won't be so quick to want to join into their game either!

Got any good websites on this?

Thanks,

Sherri-Lee

Re: OT: birth certificates

> From: cpeter8743@...

>

> In a message dated 3/10/2000 7:22:58 PM Central Standard Time,

> slp@... writes:

>

> << So if you don't file then you have no reason to have a social security

> number? >>

>

> Exactly. It's a Tax ID number. Period. I know people who don't file.

Many

> still pay SS taxes, as they haven't worked themselves out of *the system*

> yet. And I know several who quit using it years ago and are still getting

up

> every morning in their homes. So it is possible. Just depends on how

much

> effort you want to put into it, and how prepared you are for the boulders

in

> the road.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR!

> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as

> 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.

> Apply NOW!

> 1/2121/4/_/489317/_/952739260/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

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