Guest guest Posted March 3, 2000 Report Share Posted March 3, 2000 Thanks, Cheryl, for your reply, and thanks to the rest of you as well for your thoughts on this. Like I said, we do plan to get the b.c., but any time I'm dealing with filing any sort of info with the government I always get this twinge of " do I REALLY want to do this? " , which I suspect many of you understand. It's been my experience that the less they know about me, the better. I find the Foreman thing highly amusing, as well. It takes a peculiar kind of courage/hutzpah to do something like that. You know, when Zappa was asked why he named his son Dweezil, he said " What do you want me to name him, BOB??? " (No offense to any Bobs.) >Cheryl Overley, whose little libertarian vent took us far afield ;-) I like these libertarian field trips. Aubin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Hi, My husband has been following a person in the United States that does not have a SS # and has been suing everyone that does not let him get what he needs without it. He has won everyone of his cases. If I can find any more info on this I will let you know. But I think it is great. Yes you may not get a tax deduction but he doesn't have to pay taxes either. No way of tracking him....... Penny Mother of Austin Michigan Cheryl Overley wrote: From: Cheryl Overley <cheryl@...> I'll try to respond to all the b/c posts in this one post. > "Aubin Parrish"<parrish1@...> wrote: > ...Aside from the obvious of > being less trackable by the gov., what advantages would there be to not having > a birth certificate? We've gotten b/c on all three of our children so I don't know personally. Reasons other people cite are yours (being less trackable by the government) and the theory cpeter8743@... shares about the certificate imply giving the government a legal foothold into your family. I looked into not getting a b/c when my third was born but all I could find was paranoid propaganda written by some militants. Their message didn't resonate with me. (Kind of like people who think vaccines are safe because the only opposition they hear is from those who vaccines are the tool of a small group whose goal is to exterminate the human race--no common ground.) Only time will whow us if we made the right decision. > ...Is there truly a need? The only "needs" I've found for a b/c are to get a social security number (you need this if you want to claim your children as tax deductions or if your children want to pay social security taxes--very value laden judgements ;-) ) obtaining a passport, and getting a marriage license (considering states aren't prosecuting people for shacking up and the Marvin vs Mitchelson (?) case established the payment off 'palimony', I see no legal problems from having a religious but not civil wedding ceremony--in some countries these are two entirely different ceremonies.) Some schools require b/cs and some don't. > Presumably, without > one there is also no social security number, without which there wouldn't be > a way to get credit cards, etc., and of course those aren't really necessary > but our society makes things difficult if you don't have any credit cards, even > if you never use them for revolving credit. As cpeter8743@...'s comments about the very limited legal uses for a social security number are 100% correct I won't expound further. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > beebemcel@... wrote: > ..... i'm not sure about a passport and > drivers license (if you can use other things to show proof of who you are??). I've not heard of a way around the passport issue but you can get an international driver's license without a b/c. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Sherri-Lee" <slp@...> wrote: > I live in Canada so I know our "rules" will be a > bit different, but I heard here (can't remember where) that if we didn't > register our child within "X" number of days, the government would "name" my > child, register him/ her and then send us the birth cert (and bill I am > sure) this makes my skin crawl!!! Oh, my! Imagine if there were an obscure law that had been slipped in stating all babies whose births weren't certified would be named Pierre Trudeau, Mulroney, or (based of course on the child's ethnic background.) LOL Please be assured I'm not mocking you. I am enthralled with the difference between what people "have" to do and what they "think" they have to do. I'm think Forman's naming four of his sons Forman is an absolute hoot! That revealed to me social conventions I held so unquestioningly that I never realized I held them. > Expeccially when I see that the "original" > birth certs in our country say on the back that this a reciept... meaning > that they just took your kids life and gave you a reciept for him ICK! I agree. That sounds scary. Some people brought this up on a UAHB list I used to be on. When we all shared our experience we realized that some states have a generic form they use through their state and in other states it's up to each county what information to include and/or require. We had no Canadian input though. I think I covered the rest of your comments/questions in my response to other posters. If I missed something just ask again and I'll respond. :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > cpeter8743@... wrote: > ...., SS #s can not be used or required in this manner. They are for tax > purposes only. That and of course the payment of social security benefits. > Your state may ask for them, and make it sound like they are > required, but I believe according to federal code they can't make you give > it, and there are several court cases to back this up. Of course there are > only a few states where someone actually had the guts to question it (such as > California). Please correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I looked into this.) My understanding was these cases were in federal court and appeal only to the first level so, until overturned or upheld at a supreme court level, these rulings carry the weight of law not in a few states but in a few regions. I don't recall which regions but I am sure just about any federal court couldn't legally find any other way. Cheryl Overley, whose little libertarian vent took us far afield ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 In a message dated 3/10/2000 5:36:43 PM Central Standard Time, slp@... writes: << I would LOVE to hear more about this.... the fact is that the only legitimate use for a social insurance (security) number is for tax purposes and for old age pensions. Other than that you do not have to provide your number to anyone. Sherri-Lee >> Actually, the only legit reason is for tax purposes. The *pension* is not connected to your tax payments. The tax payments go directly to the Fed Reserve (a private corporation) into a non-descript account. Social security payments are based solely on what congress and the fed reserve decide to pay and how and when. They can stop paying any time they choose. What you pay in taxes has not a whole lot to do with what you are paid. It is basically a *gift*. Well, I correct myself -- you most likely wouldn't get *social security* if you didn't have a number, but other than that one has nothing to do with the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 In a message dated 3/10/2000 7:22:58 PM Central Standard Time, slp@... writes: << So if you don't file then you have no reason to have a social security number? >> Exactly. It's a Tax ID number. Period. I know people who don't file. Many still pay SS taxes, as they haven't worked themselves out of *the system* yet. And I know several who quit using it years ago and are still getting up every morning in their homes. So it is possible. Just depends on how much effort you want to put into it, and how prepared you are for the boulders in the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Hi Penny, I would LOVE to hear more about this.... the fact is that the only legitimate use for a social insurance (security) number is for tax purposes and for old age pensions. Other than that you do not have to provide your number to anyone. Sherri-Lee Re: OT: birth certificates Hi, My husband has been following a person in the United States that does not have a SS # and has been suing everyone that does not let him get what he needs without it. He has won everyone of his cases. If I can find any more info on this I will let you know. But I think it is great. Yes you may not get a tax deduction but he doesn't have to pay taxes either. No way of tracking him....... Penny Mother of Austin Michigan Cheryl Overley wrote: From: Cheryl Overley <cheryl@...> I'll try to respond to all the b/c posts in this one post. > "Aubin Parrish"<parrish1@...> wrote: > ...Aside from the obvious of > being less trackable by the gov., what advantages would there be to not having > a birth certificate? We've gotten b/c on all three of our children so I don't know personally. Reasons other people cite are yours (being less trackable by the government) and the theory cpeter8743@... shares about the certificate imply giving the government a legal foothold into your family. I looked into not getting a b/c when my third was born but all I could find was paranoid propaganda written by some militants. Their message didn't resonate with me. (Kind of like people who think vaccines are safe because the only opposition they hear is from those who vaccines are the tool of a small group whose goal is to exterminate the human race--no common ground.) Only time will whow us if we made the right decision. > ...Is there truly a need? The only "needs" I've found for a b/c are to get a social security number (you need this if you want to claim your children as tax deductions or if your children want to pay social security taxes--very value laden judgements ;-) ) obtaining a passport, and getting a marriage license (considering states aren't prosecuting people for shacking up and the Marvin vs Mitchelson (?) case established the payment off 'palimony', I see no legal problems from having a religious but not civil wedding ceremony--in some countries these are two entirely different ceremonies.) Some schools require b/cs and some don't. > Presumably, without > one there is also no social security number, without which there wouldn't be > a way to get credit cards, etc., and of course those aren't really necessary > but our society makes things difficult if you don't have any credit cards, even > if you never use them for revolving credit. As cpeter8743@...'s comments about the very limited legal uses for a social security number are 100% correct I won't expound further. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > beebemcel@... wrote: > ..... i'm not sure about a passport and > drivers license (if you can use other things to show proof of who you are??). I've not heard of a way around the passport issue but you can get an international driver's license without a b/c. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Sherri-Lee" <slp@...> wrote: > I live in Canada so I know our "rules" will be a > bit different, but I heard here (can't remember where) that if we didn't > register our child within "X" number of days, the government would "name" my > child, register him/ her and then send us the birth cert (and bill I am > sure) this makes my skin crawl!!! Oh, my! Imagine if there were an obscure law that had been slipped in stating all babies whose births weren't certified would be named Pierre Trudeau, Mulroney, or (based of course on the child's ethnic background.) LOL Please be assured I'm not mocking you. I am enthralled with the difference between what people "have" to do and what they "think" they have to do. I'm think Forman's naming four of his sons Forman is an absolute hoot! That revealed to me social conventions I held so unquestioningly that I never realized I held them. > Expeccially when I see that the "original" > birth certs in our country say on the back that this a reciept... meaning > that they just took your kids life and gave you a reciept for him ICK! I agree. That sounds scary. Some people brought this up on a UAHB list I used to be on. When we all shared our experience we realized that some states have a generic form they use through their state and in other states it's up to each county what information to include and/or require. We had no Canadian input though. I think I covered the rest of your comments/questions in my response to other posters. If I missed something just ask again and I'll respond. :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > cpeter8743@... wrote: > ...., SS #s can not be used or required in this manner. They are for tax > purposes only. That and of course the payment of social security benefits. > Your state may ask for them, and make it sound like they are > required, but I believe according to federal code they can't make you give > it, and there are several court cases to back this up. Of course there are > only a few states where someone actually had the guts to question it (such as > California). Please correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I looked into this.) My understanding was these cases were in federal court and appeal only to the first level so, until overturned or upheld at a supreme court level, these rulings carry the weight of law not in a few states but in a few regions. I don't recall which regions but I am sure just about any federal court couldn't legally find any other way. Cheryl Overley, whose little libertarian vent took us far afield ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Hi I should have been more clear... since I am in Canada they do have a lot to do with old age pension here.... luckily for me it probably won't exist anymore when I am ready to retire as it is going broke! LOL... just one less reason to have a social insurance number:) Thanks for the thoughts, Sherri-Lee Re: OT: birth certificates > From: cpeter8743@... > > In a message dated 3/10/2000 5:36:43 PM Central Standard Time, > slp@... writes: > > << I would LOVE to hear more about this.... the fact is that the only > legitimate use for a social insurance (security) number is for tax purposes > and for old age pensions. Other than that you do not have to provide your > number to anyone. > > Sherri-Lee >> > Actually, the only legit reason is for tax purposes. The *pension* is not > connected to your tax payments. The tax payments go directly to the Fed > Reserve (a private corporation) into a non-descript account. Social security > payments are based solely on what congress and the fed reserve decide to pay > and how and when. They can stop paying any time they choose. What you pay > in taxes has not a whole lot to do with what you are paid. It is basically a > *gift*. Well, I correct myself -- you most likely wouldn't get *social > security* if you didn't have a number, but other than that one has nothing to > do with the other. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > 1/2120/4/_/489317/_/952736594/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Hi again, sorry for the second post one question: > From: cpeter8743@... > > Actually, the only legit reason is for tax purposes. So if you don't file then you have no reason to have a social security number? Thanks, Sherri-Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Hi there, There is quite a movement here in Canada and in the States for people who want to break free of the system. It has happened successfully (defined as not having been prosecuted... yet) and unsuccessfully (Ed McCabe comes to mind initially). It is an interesting area to look into and once you do man you will never believe that the government is " of and for the people " again and you won't be so quick to want to join into their game either! Got any good websites on this? Thanks, Sherri-Lee Re: OT: birth certificates > From: cpeter8743@... > > In a message dated 3/10/2000 7:22:58 PM Central Standard Time, > slp@... writes: > > << So if you don't file then you have no reason to have a social security > number? >> > > Exactly. It's a Tax ID number. Period. I know people who don't file. Many > still pay SS taxes, as they haven't worked themselves out of *the system* > yet. And I know several who quit using it years ago and are still getting up > every morning in their homes. So it is possible. Just depends on how much > effort you want to put into it, and how prepared you are for the boulders in > the road. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > 1/2121/4/_/489317/_/952739260/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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