Re: Diagnosed with ADHD and Depression - explains EVERYTHING

August 11, 2010

Hi Jonny, I wondered where you had gone to as you had been

a regular contributor to the forum discussions. However, from what you say, I

am concerned that you appear to be now dismissing hypothyroidism as a cause for

your symptoms and finding other problems that could be an explanation for them.

What happened that caused you to go back onto thyroxine when you

were doing so amazingly well on Armour Thyroid. I actually copied a note from

you when you were doing so well on Armour Thyroid, which I used in my response

to the British Thyroid Association's Statement on Armour Thyroid

·

“I have just tried Armour for a few

weeks after being unsuccessfully treated with thyroxine for 2 1/2 years.

Unfortunately I ran out of Armour, but for those few weeks my symptoms went,

for the first time in years (and I’m only 20 so that's a large proportion

of my life). No more muscle aches, joint pain, foggy non-thinking brain,

tiredness, depression. Then when I ran out, I started thyroxine again. Now the

dreaded symptoms have all come back. I now know how needed Armour is, and think

it is verging on negligent that it can't be prescribed to me " .

I am amazed that an endocrinologist would tell his patients who

had been taking hydrocortisone to stop taking this all at once. It is well

known that anybody stopping their hydrocortisone should be warned to do this

slowly, slowly decreasing by 2.5mcgs at a time until they are finally off it

completely. I am glad to hear it caused no problems in your particular case.

How long have you been taking levothyroxine-alone now Jonny? Are

you absolutely POSITIVE that your symptoms of lack of concentration,

inattentiveness, brain fog, forgetfulness and depression are all attributed to

ADHD and not hypothyroidism? Keep us informed regarding any improvement (or

not) and let us know what dose of levothyroxine you are taking right now, when

was it last increased and what are your latest thyroid function test results.

Don't forget to give us the reference range for each test done Jonny.

Luv - Sheila

Just to let you know...I'm back on thyroxine as found the Armour wasnt really

any better. I also was taking hydrocortisol for almost a year but stopped

taking it last november.. I stopped suddenly after the endo told me too and

actually felt much better from doing this.

Last year I was diagnosed with depression by the GP, started taking sertraline

which helped a lot.

A few months ago i was diagnosed with ADHD inattentive type by a consultant

neuropsychiatrist and this has really explained practically my whole life.

i was always not concentrating at school, and would forget things a

lot...especially if someone told me something. (I still do this now actually)

and infact the school reports were used in the decision to diagnose me. ADHD

inattentive also explains my tiredness, brain fog, and depression (which I

think is secondary to the ADHD because it effects things like socializing and

generally makes you feel a bit retarded when you forget things all the time).

It quite a recent development to diagnose adults but they are only just

realising that adults get it too.

August 11, 2010

Hi Sheila,

Yes I have stopped thinking that the hypothyroidism is a cause for it now. There

is still a small doubt in my mind, but I decided after Trying the Armour for 18

months and hydrocortisone at various doses for about 10 months that I wasn't

feeling much better on it. And indeed I actually felt better coming off the HC.

I did feel worse when I went from Armour to thyroxine at the time of writing

that snippet that you quoted. I think tho that this was actually deo to my body

getting used to Armour (lowering its natural T3 production to compensate for

that in Armour) and then when I went on thyroxine my body had to start

increasing it again.

I also think that it could have been partly placebo. Having total belief that a

medication would make me feel better I think actually made me feel a bit better

on it.

But after coming off HC suddenly and feeling better I suddenly though " Maybe I

was wrong about all this after all if I was wrong about the HC " . I thought that

it would be dangerous for me to come off HC so suddenly, but, with healthy

working adrenals, it proved to be fine and my body actually seemed grateful for

me coming off it. I think if you don;t need the HC then coming off it is fine.

So I then starting thinking " Maybe Im wrong about this whole Armour/thyroxine

thing too " . Then when I went onto thyroxine I felt no real difference.

Im on 125mg thyroxine now and have been on it since December I think. I havnt

had blood results done in a while and can't actually remember the last ones at

this dose. I only remember at 150mg I was below the TSH range a bit so the dose

was decreased to 125mg.

It's possible that my symptoms are from the hypothyroidism instead of ADHD and

that extra T3 is need (In the form of Armour for instance).

But after trying Armour at various doses and still being unable to go out and

socialize or do sports etc from being tired, and then finding that

antidepressants gave me more energy and for the first time in years so I could

go out drinking with my friends and not get too tired and have to go home, I

think that antidepressants have been more successful in treating my symptoms.

Also, given that the medical establishement supports the view that it is

depression and/or depression responsible for my symptoms and not hypothyroidism,

then I am happy to go with this. It is well documented that ADHD/depression can

be responsible for all these symptoms, whereas it is not documented that TSH and

T4 being in the normal ranges can be responsible (I am talking about studies

here, not anecdotal evidence).

For now, I am feeling better than I did when taking Armour. I have just stopped

the antidepressants and think that (much to my surprise) the depression is not

coming back and I have more energy than I did on armour. I am also still waiting

for the ADHD medication to start working and when it does and if it effectively

treats the ADHD, this should give me more energy too and improve my memory,

attention, brain fog and depression.

I have decided to no longer take things into my own hands and just let the

medical profession decide for me what to do. This is not only logical (I thought

to myself that out of all these studies, and all these medical professionals

looking at them and deciding the best thing to do, I should beleive them), but

has also proved to be much less stressful than trying to take it into my own

hands and decide for myself what I should do.

Thanks

Jonny

>

> Hi Jonny, I wondered where you had gone to as you had been a regular

> contributor to the forum discussions. However, from what you say, I am

> concerned that you appear to be now dismissing hypothyroidism as a cause for

> your symptoms and finding other problems that could be an explanation for

> them.

>

> What happened that caused you to go back onto thyroxine when you were doing

> so amazingly well on Armour Thyroid. I actually copied a note from you when

> you were doing so well on Armour Thyroid, which I used in my response to the

> British Thyroid Association's Statement on Armour Thyroid

>

> . " I have just tried Armour for a few weeks after being

> unsuccessfully treated with thyroxine for 2 1/2 years. Unfortunately I ran

> out of Armour, but for those few weeks my symptoms went, for the first time

> in years (and I'm only 20 so that's a large proportion of my life). No more

> muscle aches, joint pain, foggy non-thinking brain, tiredness, depression.

> Then when I ran out, I started thyroxine again. Now the dreaded symptoms

> have all come back. I now know how needed Armour is, and think it is verging

> on negligent that it can't be prescribed to me " .

>

> I am amazed that an endocrinologist would tell his patients who had been

> taking hydrocortisone to stop taking this all at once. It is well known that

> anybody stopping their hydrocortisone should be warned to do this slowly,

> slowly decreasing by 2.5mcgs at a time until they are finally off it

> completely. I am glad to hear it caused no problems in your particular case.

>

> How long have you been taking levothyroxine-alone now Jonny? Are you

> absolutely POSITIVE that your symptoms of lack of concentration,

> inattentiveness, brain fog, forgetfulness and depression are all attributed

> to ADHD and not hypothyroidism? Keep us informed regarding any improvement

> (or not) and let us know what dose of levothyroxine you are taking right

> now, when was it last increased and what are your latest thyroid function

> test results. Don't forget to give us the reference range for each test done

> Jonny.

>

> Luv - Sheila

>

> Just to let you know...I'm back on thyroxine as found the Armour wasnt

> really any better. I also was taking hydrocortisol for almost a year but

> stopped taking it last november.. I stopped suddenly after the endo told me

> too and actually felt much better from doing this.

>

> Last year I was diagnosed with depression by the GP, started taking

> sertraline which helped a lot.

>

> A few months ago i was diagnosed with ADHD inattentive type by a consultant

> neuropsychiatrist and this has really explained practically my whole life.

>

> i was always not concentrating at school, and would forget things a

> lot...especially if someone told me something. (I still do this now

> actually) and infact the school reports were used in the decision to

> diagnose me. ADHD inattentive also explains my tiredness, brain fog, and

> depression (which I think is secondary to the ADHD because it effects things

> like socializing and generally makes you feel a bit retarded when you forget

> things all the time).

>

> It quite a recent development to diagnose adults but they are only just

> realising that adults get it too.

>

August 11, 2010

Hi Jonnie, Good to hear that you may have found an answer to your problems. my Daughter is ADHD so I know the problems that it can cause- the ADHD help group always explained that there were two sides to the condition- that the quiet, withdrawn children that were failing at school could have the flipside of this condition. My daughters problems were controlloed in large part by attedntion to diet- see the work of Dr. Ben Feingold- and with the addition of evening primrose oil for it's gammalinoleic acid content and zinc supplementation. You may find that this approach helps you too.- after all, if it doesn't, the diet is a still a healthy way to live ,so no harm done. thyroid treatment From: jrshannie@...Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 01:25:35 +0000Subject: Diagnosed with ADHD and Depression - explains EVERYTHING

Hi guys,I havnt been on this forum for AGES.Just to let you know...I'm back on thyroxine as found the Armour wasnt really any better. I also was taking hydrocortisol for almost a year but stopped taking it last november.. I stopped suddenly after the endo told me too and actually felt much better from doing this.Last year I was diagnosed with depression by the GP, started taking sertraline which helped a lot.A few months ago i was diagnosed with ADHD inattentive type by a consultant neuropsychiatrist and this has really explained practically my whole life.There is ADHD hyperactive which is the one where people have lots of energy and thought buzzing around in their head so talk fast and are generally hard for people to keep up with. It quite a recent development to diagnose adults but they are only just realising that adults get it too. i thought I would mention it on here to see if it could help some people explain things like it did for me.Jonny

August 11, 2010

I hope you will be

proved right in your beliefs that putting your health back into the hands of

the medical professionals is the way for you to go Jonny. I also hope that your

actions do prove to be " logical " . We are here to help if you find at

any point in the future, you need help again, should you find your health

deteriorating within mainstream guidelines, which I hope it does not. Seriously

though Jonny, good luck and I hope you regain total good health in your

chosen path.

Luv - Sheila

I have decided to no longer take things into my own hands and just let the

medical profession decide for me what to do. This is not only logical (I

thought to myself that out of all these studies, and all these medical

professionals looking at them and deciding the best thing to do, I should

beleive them), but has also proved to be much less stressful than trying to

take it into my own hands and decide for myself what I should do.

Thanks

Jonny

August 11, 2010

The last person I would personally put my faith in is doctors who are going to

give me meds for ADHD, like ritalin.

As someone who has all the symptoms you have mentioned, it is very easy to fall

into the trap of being medicalised, as shrinks like to do.

As for me ADHD is just another symptom that I have. This is more than likely

caused by many things, possibly mercury the underlying issue.

I also believe that SSRI's messed up my whole endocrine system, as it has been

shown to do. The support and understanding that I have personally far outweighs

anything I have had from the medical profession, who patronise and condescend my

every thought on my health.

August 11, 2010

I have to agree 100% .

Sheila

The last person I would personally put my faith in is doctors who are going to

give me meds for ADHD, like ritalin.

As someone who has all the symptoms you have mentioned, it is very easy to fall

into the trap of being medicalised, as shrinks like to do.

As for me ADHD is just another symptom that I have. This is more than likely caused

by many things, possibly mercury the underlying issue.

I also believe that SSRI's messed up my whole endocrine system, as it has been

shown to do. The support and understanding that I have personally far outweighs

anything I have had from the medical profession, who patronise and condescend

my every thought on my health.

August 11, 2010

Hi, I'm de-lurking for this conversation, hope that's okay...

I actually think there might be a middle ground. I think there's a large overlap

between hypothyroid symptoms and ADHD (whether hyperactive, inattentive or

combined). Depression in thyroid patients, I've come to believe, is usually due

to inadequate medication, and when SSRIs are prescribed, I think it's usually a

mistake and they make things worse.

I think perhaps the key is in when the ADHD symptoms started. In childhood? Or

later on?

This is why they want to use school reports and interviews from family members.

If the symptoms didn't surface until adulthood, then I think it's more likely to

be thyroid complications than ADHD.

For me, they pre-date my thyroid issues. And in fact, I believe when my genetic

code triggered Hashimoto's around puberty it actually masked the ADHD enough for

everyone around me to feel it was no longer an issue, as I wasn't hyperactive

anymore. Well I may have been too physically tired to be hyperactive, but

nothing stopped my brain.

I only recently discovered that adults can also have ADHD. And for me, at the

moment, it's like finding a missing piece. I've been treating for Hashimoto's

with varying degrees of success for almost a decade. I keep raising my thyroid

meds, but some symptoms remain. I used to take Armour but didn't do well with

the formula change. I now take Efra from Canada (I'm American), I take the

equivalent of 4 grains. The residual symptoms all *could* be explained by ADHD.

It's a possibility.

I'm interested enough to check it out and see what happens with stimulants.

Either it will work or it won't. I understand the original posters desire to

hand it over to a medical professional, in fact, I remember feeling that way too

at his age. But I'm older now and I don't feel that it's ever possible to just

hand things over. We all know endocrinologists leave quite a bit to be desired,

especially for you all in the UK. Specialists in Adult ADHD are similar. The

medical " professionals " are just starting to figure it all out. So this means

that we, as patients, need to be even more involved in our treatment... that

much more in tune with our health. Even more so when the system is stacked

against you.

Many of the dietary choices that should be made for thyroid patients are the

same as those for ADHD patients (restricting processed foods, avoiding gluten,

low-carb, watching sugar intake, potentially the same with dairy). Taking a

good multi vitamin/mineral, fish oil, vitamin c, etc... good for both.

Just as I was once willing to walk away from Synthroid and Levothyroxine in

favor of Armour (made a huge difference for me), the same way I was willing to

give up gluten to see if it made a difference as well (it did), I'm willing to

try a low dose stimulant to see if it may help (but only because my ADHD

symptoms existed from childhood). If it doesn't, then it's back to the drawing

board.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a one-size-fits-all fix. But that's exactly

what's wrong with the approach of the majority of endocrinologists worldwide. We

each have these unique systems, we're each a unique puzzle. I wish none of us

had to deal with these issues, but we do, and I think we need to be curious

enough to explore all the clues to solving our own mysteries.

Well it's taken me 2 hours to compose this (thanks ADHD). I hope it makes sense

and doesn't offend anyone, as that was not my intention.

>

> I have to agree 100% .

>

> Sheila

>

August 11, 2010

"I think perhaps the key is in when the ADHD symptoms started. In childhood? Or later on? This is why they want to use school reports and interviews from family members. If the symptoms didn't surface until adulthood, then I think it's more likely to be thyroid complications than ADHD."Yes I agree. For me, I was quite hypoeractive as a youngster and my school reports as far back as I have them (7 years old) state that I need to pay attention more and not mess around in class. I remember at school getting told off and recall trying to concentrate but Ended up not paying attention anyway. It wasn't just being "naughty" because I wasn't always talking or exhibiting "naughty" behavior....a lot of the time I would be looking out of the window or looking at posters round the room instead of listening to the teacher.If anyone was not ADHD as a child (inattentive, hyperactive etc ) then it is unlikely that they have ADHD as an adult (unless there was a head injury in which case acquired ADHD is possible). Conversely, if someone had ADHD as a child then they WILL have it as an adult because it is a brain disorder - a lower amount of dopamine in certain areas of the prefrontal cortex so I gather. So what I'm saying is that if someone had symptoms as a child and still has them now, or had a head injusry in their life, then it is quite possible that they have ADHD as an adult and this maybe something that any of you may want to look into if you feel it is possible.I think it is also possible that some of you have symptoms caused by depression, like I did, especially if there have been past experiences that may have caused it or if depression runs in your family, and so you may want to look into this too."For me, they pre-date my thyroid issues. And in fact, I believe when my genetic code triggered Hashimoto's around puberty it actually masked the ADHD enough for everyone around me to feel it was no longer an issue, as I wasn't hyperactive anymore. Well I may have been too physically tired to be hyperactive, but nothing stopped my brain. :)"Yes I think this is very possibly what heppened to me too. i went from being quite hyper and annoying at around 12/13 years old to tired and depressed at about 15/16. I was finally diagnosed at 17 when my thyroid blood results eventually same out of the range.The fact that i felt tired for the 2 years preceding the diagnosis when my thyroid labs were in range does make me think that the ranges need changing to a small, or lower, range. However, at the time my undiagnosed ADHD was causing social problems at school and it's quite possible that the tiredness and depression was due to this. What further supports this is that treating with thyroxine and then Armour, did not improve me, or at least not enough. And also that hypoeractive ADHD is much less common in adults that children, indicating that many hypoeractive ADHD children will turn into inattentive ADHD adults (of which the symptoms are often tiredness, brain fog and secondary depression).I understand that if you felt a great improvement from Armour over thyroxine then this is evidence that the T3 in Armour is needed for you. I can't say I noticed a significant improvement myself so that is why I lost faith in the whole T3 argument.It does seem, however, that extra thyroid hormones produces a better mood anyway, as indicated by this quote I quickly found:"Thyroid tests in blood, such as T3, T4 and TSH, are performed if the cause of euphoria is suspected to be due to hyperthyroidism."So even in the case of seeing an improvement, it is also possible that this is not because of a physiological replacement of the lack of hormone, but rather because of the increase in mood that anyone would get if they supplemented extra thyroid hormone.It's up to you to decide either way, but for me I have left that to the medical profession. Between either the thousands of anecdotal reports from people that think they need extra T3 hormone or the studies and hundreds of thousands of medical professionals with their degrees I will feel safer going with the latter. Even tho there is possibility of conspiracy, I feel that 99.99% of medical professionals have good intentions.It was my belief a year ago that medical professionals are not to be trusted due to being bribed by the pharmaceutical companies. However, I think that researchers at universities would not let their studies be swayed by such things. After all, a researcher is not a highly paid job and so I assume that their passion for their subject outweighs their passion for money.And again, for doctors, a 5 year medical degree, the training required after that and the subsequent demand of such a demanding job would not attract someone that doesn't care about other people's welfare. I have to assume that the evidence there has not been tainted by anyone.It is possible that studies have unfortunately not picked up the truth, and while this is a possibility, one cannot assume that it is true because it is the same for all studies and is an unlikely occurrence. ThanksJonny

August 12, 2010

I don't understand why this should make any difference. Even babies can have

thyroid problems. Even if the problem is not genetic, they are influenced by

the environment in the womb.

Miriam

> I think perhaps the key is in when the ADHD symptoms started. In childhood?

Or later on?

August 12, 2010

I sincerely hope your

trusting nature with the medical profession never lets you down Jonny as it has

let down so many.

Do you never wonder why we

have almost 2000 members and over 3000 hits a week on our web site. I wonder

why there are literally hundreds of such thyroid web sites and forums

throughout the world with tens of thousands of members, if they all felt happy

with their doctors and their treatment ,and knew they were on the road to

recovery? I wonder why there are over 250,000 sufferers in the UK alone (and

millions world-wide) who are being left to suffer so unnecessarily because they

are being denied the thyroid hormone replacement that would give them back

their lives. These folk are being failed miserably by the medical profession.

We do not deny that

there are medical professionals throughout the world who have 100% total

dedication, who have great passion to help those suffering, who have, and are

doing brilliant research, who have performed fantastic studies, etc , but we

have learned that there are many, many doctors who have NO dedication to their

profession or their patients, some admitting they were drawn into the

profession because of the money.

If what you say about

the medical professionals is true, then why are we trying to pick up the pieces

of broken lives that have been wrecked through sheer ignorance, arrogance and lack

of training in helping those with the symptoms of hypothyroidism. I spend

hours of my time in trying to deal with hundreds of messages sent from our web

site and the forum, and receiving hundreds of telephone calls throughout the

years - often from people who are weeping, out of sheer desperation and fear

for their future well-being, and yes, many such calls make me weep. Perhaps a

day standing in my shoes Jonny might make you less trusting. Many of these

victims have been, and continue to be, physically and verbally abused by some

of our so called medical professionals.

For those reports from

people that " think " they need extra T3 hormone, there is research and

studies that have been done to prove that many sufferers DO need T3, that the

RCP and BTA inexplicably refuse to acknowledge. These are all in our web site, Files,

our responses to the many misleading and incorrect statements by the British

Thyroid Association and the Royal College of Physicians.

I hope your faith in the

medical professionals proves good Jonny and that they have now found the true

cause for your symptoms and will treat you and give you back normal health at

last.

Meanwhile, we will

continue to pick up the pieces of those who are being denied a proper diagnosis

and the choice of treatment, because of doctors fear of losing their career and

livelihood should they DARE to diagnose and treat outside of the RCP, BTA guidance.

If you really want to

know why this is happening, I would highly recommend you read the book

" Dirty Medicine by " . From its Back Cover:

" Orthodox

medical practitioners, pharmaceutical companies and industrial scientists, have

organised against alternative and complementary medicine in Europe and America,

since the last century. Dirty Medicine traces the history of these campaigns,

their proponents and institutions.

" In 1987 the

Wellcome Foundation, one of Britian's largest multi-national drug companies,

obtained a license for the drug Zidovudine, known as AZT. AZT was heralded by

the media and marketed by Wellcome as if it was the answer to the AIDS

epidemic. Packaged and promoted like any other commodity, public relations

companies and advertising agencies hyped AZT from Romania to Uruguay. In 1992

the foundation made nearly £200M profit from the drug. With the marketing of

AZT, the campaign against alternative and complementary medicine was suddenly

transformed from an academic dispute to a war. Dirty tricks, industrial sabotage

and character assassination replaced normal business and scientific practice.

Dirty Medicine, is a

frightening story of the free market, at war with the powerless. It exposes

how, under the guise of government regulation, big business, science and

medical orthodoxy defended their products and profits from competition " .

Sheila

It's up to you to decide either way, but for me I have left that to the medical

profession. Between either the thousands of anecdotal reports from people that

think they need extra T3 hormone or the studies and hundreds of thousands of

medical professionals with their degrees I will feel safer going with the

latter. Even tho there is possibility of conspiracy, I feel that 99.99% of

medical professionals have good intentions.

It was my belief a year ago that medical professionals are not to be trusted

due to being bribed by the pharmaceutical companies. However, I think that

researchers at universities would not let their studies be swayed by such

things. After all, a researcher is not a highly paid job and so I assume that

their passion for their subject outweighs their passion for money.

And again, for doctors, a 5 year medical degree, the training required after

that and the subsequent demand of such a demanding job would not attract

someone that doesn't care about other people's welfare. I have to assume that

the evidence there has not been tainted by anyone.

It is possible that studies have unfortunately not picked up the truth, and

while this is a possibility, one cannot assume that it is true because it is

the same for all studies and is an unlikely occurrence.

Thanks

Jonny

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found in this incoming message.

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18:34:00

August 12, 2010

Hi , you can " de-lurk " any time with

information such as this. many thanks for posting it. I have been naughty and

left all of your previous message as I think others will want to read it, who

missed it yesterday because they were, perhaps elsewhere.

Luv - Sheila

Hi, I'm de-lurking for this conversation, hope

that's okay...

I actually think there might be a middle ground. I think there's a large

overlap between hypothyroid symptoms and ADHD (whether hyperactive, inattentive

or combined). Depression in thyroid patients, I've come to believe, is usually

due to inadequate medication, and when SSRIs are prescribed, I think it's

usually a mistake and they make things worse.

I think perhaps the key is in when the ADHD symptoms started. In childhood? Or

later on?

This is why they want to use school reports and interviews from family members.

If the symptoms didn't surface until adulthood, then I think it's more likely

to be thyroid complications than ADHD.

For me, they pre-date my thyroid issues. And in fact, I believe when my genetic

code triggered Hashimoto's around puberty it actually masked the ADHD enough

for everyone around me to feel it was no longer an issue, as I wasn't

hyperactive anymore. Well I may have been too physically tired to be

hyperactive, but nothing stopped my brain.

I only recently discovered that adults can also have ADHD. And for me, at the

moment, it's like finding a missing piece. I've been treating for Hashimoto's

with varying degrees of success for almost a decade. I keep raising my thyroid

meds, but some symptoms remain. I used to take Armour but didn't do well with

the formula change. I now take Efra from Canada (I'm American), I take the

equivalent of 4 grains. The residual symptoms all *could* be explained by ADHD.

It's a possibility.

I'm interested enough to check it out and see what happens with stimulants.

Either it will work or it won't. I understand the original posters desire to

hand it over to a medical professional, in fact, I remember feeling that way

too at his age. But I'm older now and I don't feel that it's ever possible to

just hand things over. We all know endocrinologists leave quite a bit to be

desired, especially for you all in the UK. Specialists in Adult ADHD are

similar. The medical " professionals " are just starting to figure it

all out. So this means that we, as patients, need to be even more involved in

our treatment... that much more in tune with our health. Even more so when the

system is stacked against you.