Re: Genova test results confusion

[Guest guest]

Hi there

personally i'd be looking at your adrenals and see how they are functioning. I

have read that a low TSH can be a reflection on poorly functioning adrenals,

which can then stop the thyroid working very well.

You could read these books

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stress-Effect-Discover-Connection-Between/dp/1583331816/\

ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1267439549 & sr=1-1 (perhaps there is some

inflammation in your body that's pulled your adrenals down, and this has in turn

affected your thyroid function)

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Still-Thyroid-Symptoms-Tests-Normal/dp/1600376703/ref=sr\

_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1267439490 & sr=1-1

Genova do an adrenal test. If low you have several options for treatment,

including glandulars or replacement dose of hydrocortisone...

chris

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your responses. I had an adrenal test done with the Red Apple clinic

last July. They told me that my results showed a depressed noon output with

morning/mid-afternoon cortisol and DHEA all within the low end of the given

reference range. This indicated a degree of adrenal stress. The exact results

were:

My morning cortisol was normal: 14 (range 13-24 nM)

11-noon cortisol was depressed: 4 (range 5-10 nM)

4-5pm cortisol was normal: 5 (range 3-8 nM)

10-midnight cortisol was elevated: 5 (range 1-4 NM)

My DHEA was normal at 5 (range 3-10 ng/ml)

The problem is that it was very unfortunate that on the day I started doing the

test, I was given some very stressful news at 9.30am. By rights, my 11-noon

cortisol should have been sky high as I was trying to deal with the situation.

By 11pm, I was much calmer but very tired and desperate to sleep so it surprised

me that my levels were elevated. I am confused! I have decided to do another

test (on hopefully a more normal day!) to get a comparison.

However, even if I do have some adrenal stress, how do you get medical

prescriptions for it when the NHS don't recognise anything except adrenal

failure? How do you find someone who recognises it and has medical

qualifications? Or, are there supplements you can buy yourself that are just as

good?

I am still uncertain as to what direction to go in. I don't know whether it

would be a good idea to have the urine thryoid test or the reverse T3 test too.

I don't want to keep throwing money at things unnecessarily but I also need

someone who can interpret and act on any abnormalities. My GP surgery does not

fall into that category! Hm, maybe the lack of medical support is elevating my

stress and exacerbating the problem???!!!

Best wishes,

Janie

[Guest guest]

>... adrenal test done with the Red Apple clinic last July.

>

> My morning cortisol was normal: 14 (range 13-24 nM)

> 11-noon cortisol was depressed: 4 (range 5-10 nM)

> 4-5pm cortisol was normal: 5 (range 3-8 nM)

> 10-midnight cortisol was elevated: 5 (range 1-4 NM)

>

> My DHEA was normal at 5 (range 3-10 ng/ml)

>

> The problem is that it was very unfortunate that on the day I started doing

the test, I was given some very stressful news at 9.30am. By rights, my 11-noon

cortisol should have been sky high as I was trying to deal with the situation.

By 11pm, I was much calmer but very tired and desperate to sleep so it surprised

me that my levels were elevated. I am confused! I have decided to do another

test (on hopefully a more normal day!) to get a comparison.

>

> However, even if I do have some adrenal stress, how do you get medical

prescriptions for it when the NHS don't recognise anything except adrenal

failure? How do you find someone who recognises it and has medical

qualifications? Or, are there supplements you can buy yourself that are just as

good?

>

I know what you mean about throwing money at one test after another. I think

it's important to go with the information you already have because this test has

picked up an issue and from your other post you have a low thyroid conversion

ratio. I understand that if the adrenals are not up to scratch, then your

thyroid won't be.

I think it's difficult to get the NHS to change any medication based on adrenal

testing that shows adrenal fatigue etc unless your adrenals are bad enough to

warrant DHEA or steroids.

I personally do rate adrenal supplements because before I took them I was going

dizzy and my energy would drain if I was stood in a queue for example. I really

struggled just standing to wash up for 10 mins and stuff like that.

I did find Dr P really good about these aspects and it was him who recommended I

have the adrenal supplements. I took Adreno_Lyph_Plus for a while and built up

to 4 a day under his advice. I then switched to Nutri_Adrenal_Extra that has the

same ingredients that I was used to, which saves me money.

Dr P may be happy to go off your tests you have already had, you would have to

discuss that with him if you saw him. And indeed any practitioner would tell you

if you needed an repeat test or an alternative test at some point. I have to say

Dr P didn't tell me to do tests every 5 minutes because he knows they cost

money.

I quite agree a lack of medical support is stressful.

Am I right in assuming that if your thyroid levels are in range you won't get

referred to an endocrinologist on the NHS, or perhaps it's possible but with

difficulty?

I am wondering if you are more adrenal than thyroid and that supplementation

with adrenal supplements and nutri thyroid for example as a supplement would fix

all this? As I say I am not a practitioner I am just wondering about your

situation and if your adrenals are why your thyroid conversion ratio is low and

your other thyroid levels are OK.

Is Janie better arranging to see DR P or is there somebody else, possibly NHS

that she should see? There will be a direction to go in, it's just deciding

which practitioner and is it NHS or paying.

Is there a need to have cortisol blood test on the NHS or synacthin on the NHS?

I know it's possible to test negative for the NHS tests because they are looking

for s or Cushings, but the private saliva test show up problems. Or is

there a chace from these results that the NHS test may show up something too?

Fiona.

[Guest guest]

My thyroid antibodies were fine. My first adrenal test did measure SIgA and it

was depressed. However, they did say that antibiotic use could have affected

that and I was on long-term antibiotics for acne then. I came off them in late

July had have done an intensive regime of high dose probiotics, aloe vera and

glutamine since then so I think I should have reversed much of this by now. The

report said it oculd take up to nine months to restore it so fingers crossed I'm

there now. My gut and digestion are much better and rarely cause me bloating or

stuff now. The test also looked at gluten intolerance and I was fine on that

count.

Janie

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie - you can

only get an NHS prescription for cortisol if you are suffering from 's

disease, This is tested using the synacthen test, which tests to see if you are

suffering either 's disease (too low or no cortisol production) or

Cushing's Syndrome (too high a level of cortisol). This test does not show

whether you have low adrenal reserve though, so they will not give you a

prescription. You will have to treat this either yourself, or you may find a

private doctor that would help you. We recommend boosting your adrenals with a

product such as Nutri Adrenal Extra which many on this forum have found beneficial.

For very low adrenal reserve, you may need to go on a course of hydrocortisone

(Cortef). Is there any chance you can see one of our Medical Advisers (see our

web site www.tpa-uk.org.uk )

Luv - Sheila

I am still uncertain as to what direction to go in. I don't know whether it

would be a good idea to have the urine thryoid test or the reverse T3 test too.

I don't want to keep throwing money at things unnecessarily but I also need

someone who can interpret and act on any abnormalities. My GP surgery does not

fall into that category! Hm, maybe the lack of medical support is elevating my

stress and exacerbating the problem???!!!

Best wishes,

Janie

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19:34:00

[Guest guest]

You seem to have covered a lot of bases, no doubt through a lot of reading up in

the past (which is time consuming and energy draining if you are ill). So I am

glad your thyroid antibodies were OK and you have gone into digestive aspects.

Have you looked at the Files via the forum and the overall TPA website? It's

just that there is some useful info relating to Dr P. There is a document where

he lists symptoms of hypothyroidism and another list symptoms of low adrenal

reserve.

For your reference it might be worthwile to print this and tick off things that

are applicable. This way you can understand your own situation yourself, as I

guess we are all different. I don't think you need many adrenal symptoms for

there to be an adrenal problem. As I say rather than being able to tick them

all, I would say in the past I had 20% of the adrenal symptoms. One might assume

that it's not applicable or of no consequence, but I know it's relevant. There

is also an adrenal stress questionnaire via the main site and you might find

that things fit with your situation. As I say you might not have all of it

applicable, but you might find that a few of the comments make you think " blimey

yeah that's my situation alright " . I also know from past experience that it's

easy to dismiss these symptoms from these lists because after all you have been

told you have ME/CFS and to all intents and purposes thyroid and adrenal

symptoms are the same and you begin to doubt yourself.

As I know you have the prior diagnosis of ME/CFS which is the same as my

situation. I am sure there are loads of people with ME/CFS who have seen Dr P

and these aspects such as low adrenal reserve are aspects that seem common with

ME/CFS.

If you Google low adrenal reserve symptoms and similar phrases there is info

elsewhere too about it.

Even if all this isn't your only cause or precipitating factor for the ME/CFS I

am sure if such aspects are not right, us ME people don't stand a chance of ever

getting well.

If you ever read Dr P's book or any online info he has written or something from

a talk he gave. Time and time again, he explains that symptoms of Low Adrenal

Reserve overlap with Hypothyroidism and ME. Hypothyroidism stresses the Adrenal

Glands and Low Adrenal Reserve stresses the Thyroid. I am sure I have suffered a

vicious circle and downward spiral and persistent annual decline that he

mentioned, where one the thyroid and adrenals affect each-other and I too am

convinced that if you have ME chances are you'll have some sort of endocrine

problem. In that way perhaps we are all different with how badly you are

affected and in what way. I am convinced that if you get post viral fatigue,

somehow this puts a huge physiological stress on the adrenals and the thyroid

and that a couple of years later you are at high risk of adrenal and thyroid

trouble. I just wish the NHS would notice.

Perhaps not all people fall into the category of NHS treatment for these

aspects, but it doesn't mean you are not sick and not in need of help. I am sure

that just because your doctor won't help you, doesn't mean that you cannot be

helped.

Anyhow don't take it from me. Read the symptoms lists and see what fits and read

what Dr P has to say. Only then will the penny drop with regards to if you fit

the pattern.

Fiona

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie, poor you, I really sympothise and have been there and had the t'shirt

so to speak - ME is a cop-out diagnosis by GPs when they are not allowed to

diagnose anything else. Your Ferritin looks low and by experience I would say

that Spatone will not be doing you a jot of good.

I tried Ferrous sulphate but it was did not agree with me, then I've tried

Solgar Gentle Iron 20mg and wow, I've noticed a real difference. You've nothing

to loose and your Thyroid function could be compromised because you haven't

enough iron. Your Ferritin needs to be at least 70 -90. I would get yourself

down to the health store and try the gentle iron. I will let the more

knowledgeable amongst us comment on your Thyroid test results.

Good luck

J

>

> Hi, I would really appreciate it if anyone could give me any insight into my

Genova test results. I had a full thyroid screen using a blood sample.

>

> As a bit of background, I have been feeling ill for about 2 years now -

extreme fatigue, feeling cold all the time, poor body temperature regulation,

thirst, poor concentration and nausea. Nothing is helping - even five months off

work to help me recover. My

[Guest guest]

Thanks J. I am just a bit worried about potentially overdosing on iron

when I have no way of having it measured, unless I pay for it myself and I can't

really justify that cost. I'm glad it worked for you though.

Janie

>

> Hi Janie, poor you, I really sympothise and have been there and had the

t'shirt so to speak - ME is a cop-out diagnosis by GPs when they are not allowed

to diagnose anything else. Your Ferritin looks low and by experience I would

say that Spatone will not be doing you a jot of good.

> I tried Ferrous sulphate but it was did not agree with me, then I've tried

Solgar Gentle Iron 20mg and wow, I've noticed a real difference. You've nothing

to loose and your Thyroid function could be compromised because you haven't

enough iron. Your Ferritin needs to be at least 70 -90. I would get yourself

down to the health store and try the gentle iron. I will let the more

knowledgeable amongst us comment on your Thyroid test results.

>

> Good luck

> J

>

[Guest guest]

>I am just a bit worried about potentially overdosing on iron when I >have no

way of having it measured, unless I pay for it myself and I >can't really

justify that cost. I'm glad it worked for you though.

>

Janie, my sentiments exactly! If GPs will only test iron if there are NHS

prescribed tablets and you have past experience of being out of range etc, then

I agree there is potential danger with taking too much Iron. I am sure the human

body is good at telling us what we need and I didn't react well to a standard

14mg supplement of Iron. I think I am gaining some benefit from Spatone but

wouldn't mind mine testing for peace of mind.

I don't know if GP reluctance to test you for Iron varies between doctors or

not, I have not yet asked.

All I know is that I have an appointment with Dr W soon to get his perspective

on my general ill health and ME. No doubt he will have a view on this and

perhaps he would recommend my GP to re-test because I know he does recommend

certain prescriptions and tests on the NHS.

If it's not possible to get tested for Feritin via the GP, what's the procedure?

Which private places do this and how do you go about it? How much is the test

worth? Which practitioners are the sort of people who would recommend the GP to

monitor your levels if you are taking Iron supplements due to being at the low

end of normal?

It would appear that not only is there controversy over the thyroid and adrenals

but people like you are meeting controversy with Iron levels.

Fiona

[Guest guest]

PLEASE DON'T FORGET TO REDUCE PREVIOUS MESSAGE- MODERATOR

Hi Fiona,

I think Dr M does a serum ferritin test, and private hospitals do it too. Dr M

charges £46.50 plus the £25 GP letter, plus you'd have to factor in a phlebotomy

fee. BTW, I thought you couldn't overdose on Spatone because it's a natural

source of iron and your body won't absorb any more than it needs? That's what I

thought I remembered reading in all the literature anyway.

I have decided to do the Genova adrenal saliva test to see what my adrenals are

doing at the moment. I wasn't sure whether to choose between Red Apple

(Diagnos-Techs) or Genova as for I've read some people's doubts about the

reliability of the Genova testing. However, it was cheaper so I've chosen it

(hopefully that's not false economy!). I can't imagine that the results would

vary much between labs.

I've also got some Nutri-Adrenal Extra which I've started taking today so I am

hoping for some results. Hope long might it take before I start seeing an

improvement, does anyone know?

I wasn't sure whether to add the Nutri Thyroid as well, starting in a couple of

weeks time. Or is that overkill?

I feel like I've got a bit more direction at last, or things to try anyway. I do

feel more adrenal than thyroid but, to be honest, my symptoms could fit so many

illnesses that I'm reluctant to pin them down to any specific one, unless I'm

properly diagnosed.

Thanks for all the support,

Janie

> If it's not possible to get tested for Feritin via the GP, what's the

procedure? Which private places do this and how do you go about it? How much is

the test worth? Which practitioners are the sort of people who would recommend

the GP to monitor your levels if you are taking Iron supplements due to being at

the low end o levels.

>

> Fiona

>

[Guest guest]

I have not heard anything about the unreliability of the Genova

tests - they give clear comments to the results, something that Lab21 do not

do, and one of the reasons to choose Genova. You should do the 24 hour salivary

adrenal profile BEFORE you start supplementing with Nutri Adrenal Extra and you

should do the test on the usual workday activities day, rather than a Sunday

where you might be sitting with your feet up reading the papers. Wait to get

your results (a week to 10 days) from Genova and post the results here together

with the reference range for each test done. Then we can take it from there.

Luv - Sheila

I have decided to do the Genova adrenal saliva test to see what my adrenals are

doing at the moment. I wasn't sure whether to choose between Red Apple

(Diagnos-Techs) or Genova as for I've read some people's doubts about the

reliability of the Genova testing. However, it was cheaper so I've chosen it

(hopefully that's not false economy!). I can't imagine that the results would

vary much between labs.

I've also got some Nutri-Adrenal Extra which I've started taking today so I am

hoping for some results. Hope long might it take before I start seeing an

improvement, does anyone know?

I wasn't sure whether to add the Nutri Thyroid as well, starting in a couple of

weeks time. Or is that overkill?

[Guest guest]

Hi, yes I did the test yesterday on a normal work day (with no unusual

stressors!) and the samples are sitting in my freezer ready to be posted next

week. Genova say they stay stable in the freezer for up to two months but I

think I'd like the results a bit quicker than that! I started the Nutri Adrenal

Extra today so my results should be typical of a usual day for me

pre-supplement.

I will post my results when they're back. It will be interesting to see how they

compare to the ones I had done last July.

Janie

>

> I have not heard anything about the unreliability of the Genova tests You

should do the 24 hour salivary adrenal profile BEFORE you start supplementing

with Nutri Adrenal Extra and you

> should do the test on the usual workday activities day, rather than a Sunday

> from there.

>

> Luv - Sheila

[Guest guest]

>Dr M charges £46.50 plus the £25 GP letter, plus you'd have to >factor in a

phlebotomy fee. BTW, I thought you couldn't overdose on >Spatone because it's a

natural source of iron and your body won't >absorb any more than it needs?

That's what I thought I remembered >reading in all the literature anyway.

Thanks for that. At least I have an idea of the price should I need to pay for a

test.

I have a forthcoming appointment with Dr W and I want his opinion about the

Spatone I am taking. I have not seen him before but he is nearer to where I live

and by all accounts deals with a lot of what Dr M does. I am going to deal with

other symptoms and ME and aim to leave the thyroid out of this appointment you

see. Surely without a blood test, either via the GP or private, I won't know if

I am taking enough. So the resultant situation would be take one Spatone sachet,

or two a day, or find a stronger but gentle iron supplement. I do want

re-testing. I guess it depends on what other tests DR W dreams up and how much

it would add up to because I know by all accounts £40-odd quid is a lot less

than other private tests and that he could just send it off if he just happens

to be doing another blood test for another reason.

I can only comment on Genova labs as I have never done anything with red apple.

I think the controversy surrounding accuracy, isn't to do with the skill of

Genova lab technicians and their techniques; it's more to do with the NHS not

accepting results and changing medication based on it. For example my GP in a

hospital referral letter said that " a retired GP diagnosed thyroid and adrenal

problems based on some urine and saliva testing " or words to that effect. Note

the word " some " which implies " what's this rubbish? "

I think I felt an improvement in adrenal symtpoms fairly soon, but especially

once I had built up to 4 Adreno-Lyph-Plus or Nutri-adrenal-extra a day, under

the advice of Dr P to do so. Since taking these, I don't get dizzy or have my

energy draining from me when stood up. Fatigue or pain is a different matter

when doing housework etc, but the dizzyness and energy drain is the thing it

helps with.

I also started on Nutri Thyroid at the same time. This too was built up to a

maximum amount under the advice of DR P. If you are more adrenal than thyroid, I

bet you won't need many nutri thyroid a day in comparison to what I had. So no

it wasn't overkill, but you can have too much of a good thing and you really do

need professional advice so you don't have too many a day etc. I am sure some

people tick over with one or two nutri thyroid a day. These people are clearly

more adrenal than thyroid. I however after taking the maximum amount then went

onto Armour Thyroid you see.

Fiona