Re: Over-dosage of Thryoid drugs

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:58:37 -0000, you wrote:

>Any advise would be of great help

Did you check pulse and temperatures as you felt strange???

were you taking the Armour all at once or spreading it out??

Nick

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila

I hope you are well. Yes, my doctor tested all the below and found I was low and

so told me to supplement. I did a IWDL test for Candida 1 year ago and it came

back negative. I use Merck hyrdrocortisone prescribed by my doctor. You say it

has nothing to do with my thryoid meds. What do you mean? My doctor thinks I may

have not be suited to T3. He says 2% of his patients have a bad reaction to it

(he usually prescribes Armour) and these patients have to go on T4 only. He

eventually wants me to do this also. I take the iron at least 4 hours away after

thyroid drugs.

I will start to graph temps as per Dr Rind. It requires quite a lot of

discipline!

Is it normal to still feel hyper symptoms 2 days after taking thyroid drugs?

Thanks for your help

Have a

> read of Dr Lam's web site on Adrenals and see if you can pick up any

> pointers there as to why you might be getting these symptoms. I am sure it

> is nothing to do with your thyroid meds. Just a thought , are you using

> the brand Cortef or a cheaper generic?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Nick,

My temperature no. My pulse yes; it was a little elevated around 75. However,

the strange feeling is ongoing. The breathlessness and sleeplessness is still

with me.

I was taking the 1.5 grains of armour at once in the morning.

paul

>

> >Any advise would be of great help

>

> Did you check pulse and temperatures as you felt strange???

>

> were you taking the Armour all at once or spreading it out??

>

> Nick

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , I said I didn't think it was anything

to do with your thyroid meds, meaning your breathlessness and other symptoms,

but I do feel it is something else that is causing either your thyroid hormones

not to work or your adrenals are still not adequately treated. We thrive on T3

and NOT T4. If you take levothyroxine alone, it is a mainly inactive hormone

that has to convert to the active hormone T3. If you are a good converter, then

that might be the way to go, but you would need to have both your Free T4 and

Free T3 tested and not just TSH and FT4. If you cannot convert T4 into 3, then

you need either the addition of synthetic Liothyronine (T3) added to the

levothyroxine(T4) - Liothyronine alone, or natural desiccated thyroid extract

which contains all the thyroid hormones your body requires. I can only imagine

that those patients who have a bad reaction to T3 may either not need T3 or

they have a bad reaction to the fillers and might have done better on Armour,

but surely these patients were started on T4 originally, and didn't do well,

and that was the reason they were put on to T3 anyway. Is this doctor NHS trained?

I appreciate that doing Dr Rind's temperature

chart requires a lot of discipline, but to get your normal health back, you

need to find out what it holding you up. I don't believe it is normal to still

feel hyper symptoms 2 days after taking thyroid drugs, especially when on so

little thyroid - unless you never required thyroid hormones in the first place.

What were the results of your last thyroid function tests ?

Luv - Sheila

You say it has nothing to do with my thyroid meds. What do you mean? My

doctor thinks I may have not be suited to T3. He says 2% of his patients have a

bad reaction to it (he usually prescribes Armour) and these patients have to go

on T4 only. He eventually wants me to do this also. I take the iron at least 4

hours away after thyroid drugs.

I will start to graph temps as per Dr Rind. It requires quite a lot of

discipline!

[Guest guest]

Sorry to ask this, but you are taking the iron well away from the thryoid meds

???

F

> Hi Nick,

>

> My temperature no. My pulse yes; it was a little elevated around 75. However,

the strange feeling is ongoing. The breathlessness and sleeplessness is still

with me.

>

> I was taking the 1.5 grains of armour at once in the morning.

>

> paul

>

>

> >

> > >Any advise would be of great help

> >

> > Did you check pulse and temperatures as you felt strange???

> >

> > were you taking the Armour all at once or spreading it out??

> >

> > Nick

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Firstly my doctor is not NHS trained. He is a belgian specialist.

My latest tests were done when I was on 2 grains of Armour (June 2009). At that

time I was still feeling breathless and suffering from sleeplessness. The

results of the bloods were were:

TSH 0.36 (0.3-4.5)

FT3 3.21 (2.1-4.2)

FT4 0.76 (0.7-1.8)

My haemoglobin was also very low. I am basically aneamic. The doc said that my

haemoglobin levels will increase as I push the thyroid medication higher. I just

can't seem to do that though.

I agree that I shouldn't be feeling the effects of too much thyroid medication 2

days afterward. I would love to know what is making me feel this terrible!

>

> Hi , I said I didn't think it was anything to do with your thyroid meds,

> meaning your breathlessness and other symptoms, but I do feel it is

> something else that is causing either your thyroid hormones not to work or

> your adrenals are still not adequately treated. We thrive on T3 and NOT T4.

> If you take levothyroxine alone, it is a mainly inactive hormone that has to

> convert to the active hormone T3. If you are a good converter, then that

> might be the way to go, but you would need to have both your Free T4 and

> Free T3 tested and not just TSH and FT4. If you cannot convert T4 into 3,

> then you need either the addition of synthetic Liothyronine (T3) added to

> the levothyroxine(T4) - Liothyronine alone, or natural desiccated thyroid

> extract which contains all the thyroid hormones your body requires. I can

> only imagine that those patients who have a bad reaction to T3 may either

> not need T3 or they have a bad reaction to the fillers and might have done

> better on Armour, but surely these patients were started on T4 originally,

> and didn't do well, and that was the reason they were put on to T3 anyway.

> Is this doctor NHS trained?

>

> I appreciate that doing Dr Rind's temperature chart requires a lot of

> discipline, but to get your normal health back, you need to find out what it

> holding you up. I don't believe it is normal to still feel hyper symptoms 2

> days after taking thyroid drugs, especially when on so little thyroid -

> unless you never required thyroid hormones in the first place. What were the

> results of your last thyroid function tests ?

>

> Luv - Sheila

[Guest guest]

Yes, thyroid meds at 7am. Iron at 4pm.

> > >

> > > >Any advise would be of great help

> > >

> > > Did you check pulse and temperatures as you felt strange???

> > >

> > > were you taking the Armour all at once or spreading it out??

> > >

> > > Nick

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Have you considered that the sleeplessness might be caused

because your adrenal activity is too high at night. It should be at its lowest

in the reference range so that you can go to sleep - and highest in the morning

when you wake to help you get through the day. You might be helped regarding

your breathlessness by reading this http://www.drlowe.com/jcl/comentry/breathingproblems.htm

Luv - Sheila

Hi Nick,

My temperature no. My pulse yes; it was a little elevated around 75. However,

the strange feeling is ongoing. The breathlessness and sleeplessness is still

with me.

I was taking the 1.5 grains of armour at once in the morning.

paul

---

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:59:52 -0000, you wrote:

>My temperature no. My pulse yes; it was a little elevated around 75. However,

the strange feeling is ongoing. The breathlessness and sleeplessness is still

with me.

With a pulse of 75 you are not hyper thyroid. Temperatures will tell a

lot here.

>

>I was taking the 1.5 grains of armour at once in the morning.

My feeling is that is overloading your adrenals and you don't have

enough cortisol to use that much at once.

Split that grain and a half into 3 half grain doses, waking, 1.30am,

and 2pm and see if that helps.

That way your body has a chance to make more cortisol before the next

dose comes along and needs some.

If temperatures dip as a result of taking Armour or T3 then that is

indicating this.

What timing are you using for the HC??

Is this New Armour or old formulation???

I had lots of strange symptoms on the new Armour including feeling

wired at night and not being able to sleep. If this is new Armour that

could be enough to give you those feelings.

Nick

[Guest guest]

I currently dose HC 10-10-7.5-5-2.5

I have played around with the dose and if I take away the bedtime dose I wake up

more often.

About 1 month ago I did graph my temperatures and they did not fluctuate at all

really.

It seems the more HC I take the less thyroid medication I can take. I am

starting to think that it is HIGH HC that is causing my problems..

>

> Have you considered that the sleeplessness might be caused because your

> adrenal activity is too high at night. It should be at its lowest in the

> reference range so that you can go to sleep - and highest in the morning

> when you wake to help you get through the day. You might be helped regarding

> your breathlessness by reading this

> http://www.drlowe.com/jcl/comentry/breathingproblems.htm

>

>

>

> Luv - Sheila

>

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 13:38:28 -0000, you wrote:

>TSH 0.36 (0.3-4.5)

>FT3 3.21 (2.1-4.2)

>FT4 0.76 (0.7-1.8)

That's pretty hypo still

>

>My haemoglobin was also very low. I am basically aneamic. The doc said that my

haemoglobin levels will increase as I push the thyroid medication higher. I just

can't seem to do that though.

What is your Ferritin, if you are low on that then the thyroid will

make you feel strange. You ideally need Ferritin at 70, you can get

away with 60.

If you are anemic then it may be well below that.

Nick

[Guest guest]

Hi Nick,

thanks for your post. I will try the split dosing of Armour. Maybe you are right

about my adrenals being stressed as a result of taking all the thyroid meds in

one go.

My HC dosing schedule is as follows:

8am 10mg

1pm 10mg

4pm 7.5mg

8pm 5mg

Bedtime 2.5mg

I am not sure if I am on the new or old Armour. It is the 1.5 grain (90mg)

tablets, expiring in Jan 2010.

>

> >My temperature no. My pulse yes; it was a little elevated around 75. However,

the strange feeling is ongoing. The breathlessness and sleeplessness is still

with me.

>

> With a pulse of 75 you are not hyper thyroid. Temperatures will tell a

> lot here.

> >

> >I was taking the 1.5 grains of armour at once in the morning.

>

> My feeling is that is overloading your adrenals and you don't have

> enough cortisol to use that much at once.

>

> Split that grain and a half into 3 half grain doses, waking, 1.30am,

> and 2pm and see if that helps.

>

> That way your body has a chance to make more cortisol before the next

> dose comes along and needs some.

>

> If temperatures dip as a result of taking Armour or T3 then that is

> indicating this.

>

> What timing are you using for the HC??

>

> Is this New Armour or old formulation???

>

> I had lots of strange symptoms on the new Armour including feeling

> wired at night and not being able to sleep. If this is new Armour that

> could be enough to give you those feelings.

>

> Nick

>

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:08:13 -0000, you wrote:

>About 1 month ago I did graph my temperatures and they did not fluctuate at all

really.

Sounds like that's OK then

>

>It seems the more HC I take the less thyroid medication I can take. I am

starting to think that it is HIGH HC that is causing my problems..

I'll go for New Armour or low ferritin before I blame high HC

Did you try dropping the HC to see if temperatures changed?

Nick

[Guest guest]

I was wondering that also and that is what I meant by your

adrenal activity maybe being too high, perhaps I should have said during the

day and night - and it could be caused because you need to decrease your

hydrocortisone. Have you discussed this with your doctor? Did you read all the

information on Dr Lowe's site http://www.drlowe.com/jcl/comentry/breathingproblems.htm

Sheila

I currently dose HC 10-10-7.5-5-2.5

I have played around with the dose and if I take away the bedtime dose I wake

up more often.

About 1 month ago I did graph my temperatures and they did not fluctuate at all

really.

It seems the more HC I take the less thyroid medication I can take. I am

starting to think that it is HIGH HC that is causing my problems..

>

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:40:29 -0000, you wrote:

>I am not sure if I am on the new or old Armour. It is the 1.5 grain (90mg)

tablets, expiring in Jan 2010.

Bite into one, does it taste sweet (old) or chalky (new)?

Do you have Ferritin numbers?

Nick

[Guest guest]

One final question Nick. I also take 25mg of T4. Should I take this in split

doses as well or not? If not, should I take it in the morning?

Re the new/ old armour problem. I could move to thyroid-s, which I have at home

as well. As far as I know this works just as well.

>

> Hi Nick,

>

> thanks for your post. I will try the split dosing of Armour. Maybe you are

right about my adrenals being stressed as a result of taking all the thyroid

meds in one go.

>

> My HC dosing schedule is as follows:

>

> 8am 10mg

> 1pm 10mg

> 4pm 7.5mg

> 8pm 5mg

> Bedtime 2.5mg

>

> I am not sure if I am on the new or old Armour. It is the 1.5 grain (90mg)

tablets, expiring in Jan 2010.

>

>

[Edit Abbrev Mod]

[Guest guest]

Chalky I'm afraid. Should I switch to Thyroid-s?

Ferritin 60ng/ ml (50-280)

% transferrin saturation 41.46% (25-50)

>

> >I am not sure if I am on the new or old Armour. It is the 1.5 grain (90mg)

tablets, expiring in Jan 2010.

>

> Bite into one, does it taste sweet (old) or chalky (new)?

>

> Do you have Ferritin numbers?

>

> Nick

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Why not try taking your levothyroxine when you go to bed. A

study has shown that patients sleep better taking it at night and feeling

better during the day. I would try Thyroid S in place of Armour just in case

you are not able to tolerate the new Armour as some people have experienced

some problems.

Luv - Sheila

One final question Nick. I also take 25mg of T4. Should I take this in split

doses as well or not? If not, should I take it in the morning?

Re the new/ old armour problem. I could move to thyroid-s, which I have at home

as well. As far as I know this works just as well.

>

> Hi Nick,

>

> thanks for your post. I will try the split dosing of Armour. Maybe you are

right about my adrenals being stressed as a result of taking all the thyroid

meds in one go.

>

> My HC dosing schedule is as follows:

>

> 8am 10mg

> 1pm 10mg

> 4pm 7.5mg

> 8pm 5mg

> Bedtime 2.5mg

>

> I am not sure if I am on the new or old Armour. It is the 1.5 grain (90mg)

tablets, expiring in Jan 2010.

>

>

[Edit Abbrev Mod]

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18:05:00

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:40:21 -0000, you wrote:

>Ferritin 60ng/ ml (50-280)

Higher would be nicer but not low enough to cause your problem

Nick

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:14:14 -0000, you wrote:

>One final question Nick. I also take 25mg of T4. Should I take this in split

doses as well or not? If not, should I take it in the morning?

Single dose would be fine. It's T3 that uses up cortisol quickly

>

>Re the new/ old armour problem. I could move to thyroid-s, which I have at home

as well. As far as I know this works just as well.

Swap to Thyroid S, I would drop dose for the first couple of days,

I've heard it's more potent than Armour for some people.

My personal recommendation, and remember I'm not a Dr, I'm only

suggesting reductions and timing changes though.

Leave the HC alone for now

Take the T4 on waking.

Take half a grain of Thyroid S with it

Take half a grain at mid day.

Stay on this split 1 grain dose for a few days and see if things

settle. If you start feeling hypo, pulse is under 80 and temperature

under 37 then add the extra half grain going for waking, 10.30, and

1pm.

If this does not work then it may be too much cortisol

Try reducing slowly, maybe 5mg every 3 or 4 days, until temperatures

become unstable and then increase the HC to the dose temperatures were

stable at.

Good luck and let us know how you do.

I'm betting it is the new Armour causing it

Nick

[Guest guest]

- do you have a time when you really felt well, and if so,

what medication were you taking then?

Luv - Sheila

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:14:14 -0000, you wrote:

>One final question Nick. I also take 25mg of T4. Should I take this in

split doses as well or not? If not, should I take it in the morning?

>

>Re the new/ old armour problem. I could move to thyroid-s, which I have at

home as well. As far as I know this works just as well.

[Guest guest]

Sheila - I haven't felt well for about 7 months since my doctor reduced my HC

dosage to 10mg. I think that was the mistake, staying on too low a dose of HC

for too long. Before this I felt better but not as good as I was hoping for.

I was on 2 grains of thyroid-s, 25mg of HC, multi-vitamin, Vitamin C, B12,

Magnesium, Selenium.

Nick and Sheila THANKS FOR ALL YOUR TIME AND HELP! I will start to multi-dose

the thyroid medication and track temps and pulse. I hope to report back with

good news soon.

x paul

>

> >One final question Nick. I also take 25mg of T4. Should I take this in

> split doses as well or not? If not, should I take it in the morning?

> >

> >Re the new/ old armour problem. I could move to thyroid-s, which I have at

> home as well. As far as I know this works just as well.

>

[Guest guest]

For a man, a ferritin reading of 60 is LOW. For a woman,

the reference range is 20 to 200 and we usually recommend a level of

between 70 and 90 - but as you can see, for a man, the reference range is much

higher. With the bottom of the range being 50 for men, you are only just inside

of the normal range. You should be way up to around 130-150 at least. What

amount of iron are you taking and are you taking large doses of vitamin C

3/4000mgs with the iron? This might well be the problem and you may need

to increase your iron until your ferritin is boosted sufficiently. Your

ferritin is your stored iron, and once that has been used, then your body has

to call on the rest of the iron in your body causing anaemia.

Sheila

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:40:21 -0000, you wrote:

>Ferritin 60ng/ ml (50-280)

Higher would be nicer but not low enough to cause your problem

Nick

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18:05:00

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:00:58 -0000, you wrote:

>Nick and Sheila THANKS FOR ALL YOUR TIME AND HELP! I will start to multi-dose

the thyroid medication and track temps and pulse. I hope to report back with

good news soon.

Good luck

Nick