Re: Are weak(er) muscles a sign of low T3

[Guest guest]

Bob

When I take T3, my legs go weak to the point that they give way under me -not

collapse instantly, but rather more like a hydraulic jack the way that descends

but fairly quickly.

I don't get this without T3, but did get it in December when I was under much

stress: this was before HC or any other med, so I link it to stress. I think T3

causes my body immense stress since I cannot use it.The leg weakness in December

went on it's own but came back on T3 and I think Thyroid USP, but not T4.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi

I believe the same weakness may occur with low vit D3 and for roughly the same

reasons.

We must really get to grips with these multiple interactions.

Bob

>

> Bob

>

> When I take T3, my legs go weak to the point that they give way under me -not

collapse instantly, but rather more like a hydraulic jack the way that descends

but fairly quickly.

>

> I don't get this without T3, but did get it in December when I was under much

stress: this was before HC or any other med, so I link it to stress. I think T3

causes my body immense stress since I cannot use it.The leg weakness in December

went on it's own but came back on T3 and I think Thyroid USP, but not T4.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bob, it's very hard to know what's going on sometimes isn't it, esp when

doctors refuse to do tests. It wouldn't matter if they were really good at

diagnosing conditions on symptoms alone, but they're not, are they. They fail

to ask relevant questions and link symptoms and see the big picture. I saw a

CFS dr recently, she said it sounded like i had depression, ie, all in my mind

rather than CFS. But don't they think that CFS is all in the mind anyway? Kind

of ironic, i thought to be given one 'all in the mind' diagnosis instead of

another; i told her " it sounds like it's best to be diagnosed with depression

anyway, at least you get real treatment not wishy-washy things like graded

exercise which i don't see how that can help " - that took her back a bit (small

victories!). She also didn't ask any questions " do you have x, do you have y "

just asked me to describe my symptoms (and conveninetly ignored what she wanted

to ignore).

Sorry to rant on, but it's the same as when I saw a psychiatrist when i had

pretty bad depression, they expect someone who is unwell to explain their

symptoms, not realising that a) it's easy to miss something when you feel so

unwell and a depressed/ill person (whatever illness) might have had a symptom

so long they consider it normal. Surely it's better to ask a series of

questions " do you have x, do you have y " as well as ask a patient what the

problem is, rather than just ask someone to describe the problem, esp as some

people are not articulate verbally, and are dismissive of themselves.

Sorry i kind of went off on one there but these doctors are often a disgrace.

House MD, they are not.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi

I wonder if the T3 is making the muscle cells instantly responsive to insulin

and thereby mopping all the spare glucose in the muscles?

Do you have glycogen storage disease (induced or heritable, perhaps)?

best wishes

Bob

>

> Bob

>

> When I take T3, my legs go weak to the point that they give way under me -not

collapse instantly, but rather more like a hydraulic jack the way that descends

but fairly quickly.

>

> I don't get this without T3, but did get it in December when I was under much

stress: this was before HC or any other med, so I link it to stress. I think T3

causes my body immense stress since I cannot use it.The leg weakness in December

went on it's own but came back on T3 and I think Thyroid USP, but not T4.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob

that is an interesting possiblity that i had not considered. I don't have any

disease that i'm aware of though my father had late onset diabetes and i have

hypo-glycemia but that's not as bad now i'm on cortef.

wouldn't i get hypo-g symptoms too though if it was mopping up the glucose?

it's a weird symptom, i know. Also it feels that T3 really badly screws up my

brain chemistry; after taking it friday i had much less thought control and

random bad memories and thoughts. I am not sure if the stress of T3 raises

noradrenaline/adrenaline too high - or,if T3 affects serotonin metabolism? T4

seems to calm things down again, much more so than T3. Wondered if t4 helped

serotonin, t3 was more noradrenaline stimulant? What do you think? though i

heard that psychiatrists give T3 to boost serotonin.

I can't really work out what is going on with me. I was doing ok on t4 last

week, but then on friday i tried Nautrethroid, 1 grain and over the last 2 days

its messed up my brain chemistry and still not gone right yet.

Somoene's suggested low ferritin may be causing my body to get very stresed (or

maybe if low ferritin, t3 goes straight to brain in big dose not body and causes

havoc?)

do you have any thoughts on what it might do to brain chemistry? i don't have

bipolar just 'normal' depression but what was interesting to me is how calming

T4 was as opposed to how unpleasant T3 made me feel.

Thanks

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris

Everything you say points to an associated condition that you

may well be suffering as the reason why thyroid hormone replacement doesn't

give you back your health - if you have seen Dr P - what were his

recommendations at that time, and have you followed all of them to the letter?

Luv - Sheila

Bob

When I take T3, my legs go weak to the point that they give way under me -not

collapse instantly, but rather more like a hydraulic jack the way that descends

but fairly quickly.

I don't get this without T3, but did get it in December when I was under much

stress: this was before HC or any other med, so I link it to stress. I think T3

causes my body immense stress since I cannot use it.The leg weakness in

December went on it's own but came back on T3 and I think Thyroid USP, but not

T4.

Chris

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11:07:00

[Guest guest]

Hello Sheila

Thanks for your message.

> if you have seen Dr P - what were his recommendations at

> that time, and have you followed all of them to the letter?

Where to start!

Ok I saw Dr P in november first of all, and my adrenal tests revealed I was low

in cortisol:

Adrenal saliva results November 08 (not on any meds/supplements)

Sample 1: LOW 7.3nmol/L range: 12-22

Sample 2: LOW 2.9 range: 5.0-9.0

Sample 3: 3.3 range: 3.0-7.0

Sample 4: 2.0 range: 1.0-3.0

Total Daily cortisol: LOW 15.5 range:21-41)

Dhea am: 0.64

Dhea pm: 0.50

Dhea: cortisol ratio: 3.68 range 2.0-6.0

My thyroid urine tests indicated i was converting ok- though Dr P said this

didn't mean to say i was actually able to use the T3 ok.

24h Urinary thyroid results November 08, not on any medication/supplements:

T3: 1810pmol/24h - range 800-2500

T4: 1330pmol/24h - range 550-3160

T3/T4 ratio: 1.36 - range 0.50 - 2.30

So, Dr P started me on NAE but i could not tolerate this - due to allergy or

maybe excess adrenaline/noradrenaline (it gave me bad anxiety and flashbacks).

So Dr P started me on HC, which i worked up to 30mg on, as i need this much.

After starting HC, i developed plantar fasciitis (according to GP) and got very

slow thoughts. This made me think that HC revealed a hypothyroid condition.

Taking just half a grain of Armour reversed this condition and made feel very

well in just a few hours. I told Dr P this and he lowered my HC and put me on

half a grain of Armour a day. Problem was when i came to increase my Armour and

HC, i got extreme anxiety - i think maybe it was a thyroid dump, or maybe it was

just intolerance to T3, i don't know. Dr P at that time suspected a conversion

problem and suggested Cytomel. i tried this but i was allergic to a filler in

it, so i obtained some Tertroxin to try. That did not make me allergic but did

cause me problems with tiredness and anxiety and i could not tolerate it.

I saw Dr P again and he said before meeting me the 2nd time he said he didn't

know what he was going to say to me as he didn't know what was wrong! Anyway,

he suggested i try a glandular - i found i could tolerate the Allergy Research

cortex extract along with my HC.

I spoke to Dr P a few weeks ago on the phone and he still did not know what was

going on with me, but suggested I carry on with the glandular, HC and add in

5mcg T3. I could not tolerate the T3, it made me feel very unwell. I am due to

speak to him on Wednesday about this and have written to him and sent a diary.

I was feeling very desperate one day and very anxious, and tried some T4, again

like the initial dose of armour that helped my mood very quickly.

Previously I asked Dr P if it might be low potassium that's affecting me but he

said that was very unlikely. however, an electrolyte test last month showed my

potassium was about 3.8 (range i think 3.6-5?), which is at the low end???

Also i asked Dr P about low ferritin, since this is always mentioned on forums

like this one and others. He said that was very unlikely in a man. Though on

my hair mineral test, it said I was low in copper, so i tried adding in some

copper (few milligrams) and that seemed to help a bit and i got cravings for

beef. I speculated that maybe copper helped hemoglobin form or something, and

Dr P agreed about this.

Really i do not know where to go from here. It seems to me that I have some

kind of problem with T3: i can tolerate T4 but not T3. If T3 is the active

hormone, then i don't know what is going on with why i cannot tolerate it.

I have tried taking lots of the other vitamins such as Vit D that are implicated

in not being able to use thyroid but no luck with that.

All i can think as possible answers are: low potassium, or low ferritin.

What else can be affecting me do you think?

Thanks

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

One must not forget that low cortisol can result in muscle

weakness – if the T3 is using up the cortisol more quickly you will feel

weak.

Regards

Mandy

[Guest guest]

Thanks, but i've tried going up to 40mg HC, tried taking 5mg extra stress dose,

even 10mg extra with the t3, makes no difference whatsoever so i assume it is

not cortisol.

Thanks

chris

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:58:00 -0000, you wrote:

>

>yeah have taken my temps before t3, they were fairly stable, but then adding T3

in they got lower - but i do not think that cortisol is the problem, i think i

could take 100mg HC and it would still not work. I really do not think it is a

cortisol problem given how i react to t4 alone.

Temperature dropping on T3 is reported to be an adrenal issue. The

extra T3 uses more HC and then your body makes other things in place.

>

>I think my body does produce more adrenaline when it doesn't have enough T4 and

cortisol.

>

Could well be

>T3 just makes me feel very ill. I do not know why. I read your post this

morning about resistance and read how you take 112mcg t3, that would probably

kill me or put me in a mental hospital, even if i ramped up. I heard of others

taking 150mcg T3, and i really don't know how anyone can tolerate this much.

The 112 is after the resistance cleared, I was on 225 to 250 of T3

before then!

>

>All a mystery. Only thing i can think of is: low ferritin, or low potassium as

apparently this can prevent t3 entering cells. My potassium was about 3.8 if i

remember rightly on a scale of 3.6-5.0 : i did not see the results for long as i

was at the doctors and didn't get a copy.

Low ferritin and low potassium are both big ones.

Val over in RT3 recently improved her potassium and got major

improvements, 3.8 is generally too low.

There is also a " RBC Potassium " test which looks at what's in the

cells rather than just in the serum and that was a big indicator for

her.

Her symptoms were lots of fluid retention as well as miscellaneous

hypo symptoms.

Good luck

Nick

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila

thanks for the explanation abour armour and levothyroxine, it helped. I guess i

never tried t4 alone because of the way i came to see Dr P.

Ok i have booked the ferritin test for tomorrow, and will see what that brings.

Also am going to try to drink more veg juice for extra potassium as 3.8 on my

potassium test was on the low side. I should eat more veg too but it's hard

when you feel rubbish to make the effort to cook. i had been taking extra salt

because on some boards they say this helps the adrenals but if HC makes you

retain salt and lose potassium that's just gonna make things worse isn't it.

Also i think i may not be getting enough calcium as i do not eat much dairy, and

also have been taking magnesium supplements (but not calcium as i ran out ages

ago). I will go buy some calcium citrate later.

I am hoping it is a simple as just being low on one or more nutrients.

>You probably are unable to tolerate external T3 because you are

> making sufficient yourself.

Thing is though, i don't understand how bodybuilders who don't need T3 can abuse

it and take lots of T3 to lose lots of weight? yet i cannot take even 5mcg? It

doesn't make sense to me - their adrenals are probably stronger than mine but it

doesn't make any sense as to why others can take t3 and i cannot, even if i am

producing enough of my own? Unless i am producing the most enormous amount

ever?

Thanks

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Low ferritin and low potassium are both big ones.

>Val over in RT3 recently improved her potassium and got major

improvements, 3.8 is generally too low.

>There is also a " RBC Potassium " test which looks at what's in the

cells rather than just in the serum and that was a big indicator for

her.

>Her symptoms were lots of fluid retention as well as miscellaneous

hypo symptoms.

Thanks Nick!

Well hopefully i will get some improvement soon from one of the things i will

try. i seem to be retaining some fluid; i pass out quite a lot less than i take

in i think, and yesterday i drank about 2 litres of water and herbal teas and

this morning was about 3-4 pounds heavier! 1litre = 1kilo, right, so that kind

of fits?

hmm, i shall get there in the end i think.

Thanks again

Chris

[Guest guest]

What I do is to buy Himalayan Salt - the big crystals. I

dissolve a big chunk in water (about a pint) and then let it stand until the

whole crystal has been dissolved - once it has all disappeared, I add another

chunk of the rock crystal and wait until that has dissolved. You need the water

to get to a stage where it is fully saturated and can take no more and you can

tell that this has happened when there is some crystal still remaining at the

bottom of the glass. I then pour this into a bottle with a screw cap and keep

it in the fridge and every morning, I have a 'swig' out of the bottle - BOY -

it sure is salty, but you are getting about 87 minerals that way. Even Dr P was

interested in my doing this when he stayed with me to do his Yorkshire clinic.

I thought he might want a 'swig' himself, but he didn't ask. *grin*. This is

the best way I know of getting the minerals your body requires.

Luv - Sheila

I have booked a ferritin test for tomorrow (well i had the kit for ages but

booked the phlebotomy).

I am also going to try drinking more vegetable juice without salt and maybe

take a few 99mg potassium tablets, do you think that's a good idea?

I will also speak to Dr P about all this tomorrow

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:08:45 -0000, you wrote:

>

>Thing is though, i don't understand how bodybuilders who don't need T3 can

abuse it and take lots of T3 to lose lots of weight? yet i cannot take even

5mcg? It doesn't make sense to me - their adrenals are probably stronger than

mine but it doesn't make any sense as to why others can take t3 and i cannot,

even if i am producing enough of my own? Unless i am producing the most

enormous amount ever?

Have you any FT3 test resuts or Adrenal Saliva results??

It still sounds adrenal to me, I wonder what would happen if you tried

extra HC at the same time as you took some T3?

Nick

[Guest guest]

Yeah i have results!

Adrenal saliva results November 08 (not on any meds/supplements)

Sample 1: LOW 7.3nmol/L range: 12-22

Sample 2: LOW 2.9 range: 5.0-9.0

Sample 3: 3.3 range: 3.0-7.0

Sample 4: 2.0 range: 1.0-3.0

Total Daily cortisol: LOW 15.5 range:21-41)

Dhea am: 0.64

Dhea pm: 0.50

Dhea: cortisol ratio: 3.68 range 2.0-6.0

But, i have tried going up to 40mg HC, and even taking an extra 5-10mg HC with

or slightly after T3 and it makes no difference. I am currently on - and need -

35mg HC . I don't think it's adrenal :-) I am well enough supported i think on

the HC front, don't you think? It doesn't explain why i get all these mental

symptoms too on T3 but not T4.

chris

[Guest guest]

Thanks Sheila

I may try that at some point.I imagine Dr P's reaction to that may have been

interesting :-)

chris

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:00:00 -0000, you wrote:

>

>

>But, i have tried going up to 40mg HC, and even taking an extra 5-10mg HC with

or slightly after T3 and it makes no difference. I am currently on - and need -

35mg HC . I don't think it's adrenal :-) I am well enough supported i think on

the HC front, don't you think? It doesn't explain why i get all these mental

symptoms too on T3 but not T4.

They certainly were low, it may still be adrenal and the T3 may be

causing adrenalin to come out when your adrenals struggle to support

T3.

There is an adrenals group and it may be worth posting there (NTH

ADRENALS). I've not been there but Val from the RT3 group is there

among others.

My gut feel is adrenal still based on temperature dropping but I have

no direct experience there and there are a lot of people that know

more than I do about adrenals.

Nick

[Guest guest]

Thanks Nick

I have posted to Val about this, her opinion on why i cannot tolerate t3 is

either low cortisol or low ferritin. so i guess i try the ferritin test and see

what it says. I even asked her about T3 resistance and she thought it sounded

more like T3 intolerance apparently low ferritin is one cause of this.

i think my adrenals are pretty knackered at the moment, but that is possibly not

helped by thyroid issues, if i have any. i guess it could just be purely adrenal

issues.

thanks

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi

This sounds more like adrenal insufficiency meaning you overreact

to the T3.

Subject: Re: Are weak(er) muscles a sign of low T3

Bob

When I take T3, my legs go weak to the point that they give way under me

-not collapse instantly, but rather more like a hydraulic jack the way that

descends but fairly quickly.

I don't get this without T3, but did get it in December when I was under

much stress: this was before HC or any other med, so I link it to stress. I

think T3 causes my body immense stress since I cannot use it.The leg

weakness in December went on it's own but came back on T3 and I think

Thyroid USP, but not T4.

Chris

------------------------------------

TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical

practitioner before changing medication.

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:38:38 -0000, you wrote:

>i think my adrenals are pretty knackered at the moment, but that is possibly

not helped by thyroid issues, if i have any. i guess it could just be purely

adrenal issues.

I hope you find some answers.

The " quick and dirty " for adrenals is temperature, it can bounce

dramatically if adrenals are low.

Nick

[Guest guest]

Chris

Low D and calcium is a killer to the muscles, I am weak as water with it and I

fell over the other week. Also for some reason some people feel worse whilst

getting the D and calcium back up to speed.

One of the first symptoms of low D is apparently inability to get up out of a

chair (thigh muscles), low back pain too then the calcium and the electrolyte

stuff starts it is definately difficult to know what is causing what symptoms.

Incidentally I have low cortisol too.

I can take natural thyroid though. Took a lot of hc to get me to be able to and

apparently that lowers potassium aghhh!

hope you get it sorted

luv Dawnx

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:39:52 -0000, you wrote:

>One of the first symptoms of low D is apparently inability to get up out of a

chair (thigh muscles),

Interesting, I had been starting to get that, it was hard to get up

from kneeling.

It got better when I went to T3 only and I put it down to that but I

have also been supplementing Vitamin D.

Nick

[Guest guest]

Hi Dawn

I remember you posting a few weeks back about your fall - sounded bad - didn't

realise that was down to low D/calcium? sometimes my legs have been giving out

from me and i can see that if i was in the wrong place or fell awkward it

wouldn't be good! It seems to be my thighs/knees that are weak.

I have started taking the RDA of calcium citrate and a sensible amount of D3 too

so i'll see what happens and gonna keep an eye on potassium by drinking veg

juice drinks maybe taking a couple of 99mg potassium tablets too.

Thanks

Chris