Re: A problem with Armour Thyroid

[Guest guest]

Hi Greenbecky

First, you made the very mistake that we warn people against.

You should never start taking a medication just because other people

told you it would be OK - that can be quite dangerous, and in your particular

case, this has almost proved correct. Why, when you were doing so well on

levothyroxine and converting to T3 OK did you change medication? Yes, the

majority of patients do appear to do OK on levothyroxine - and we are not

talking about them - what we are doing at TPA-UK is to help those patients who

do not do well on T4 only. You obviously have a very sensible and knowledgeable

endocrinologist who told you that as you were converting to T3, you must

definitely did not need Armour and I am pleased that you have reverted to

taking levothyroxine once again.

When people start a medication such as Armour thyroid, because

it contains all the thyroid hormones your body requires, you need first, to

ensure your adrenals are able to cope. You need to ensure you do not have low

ferritin, B12, Vitamin D3, magnesium, zinc and copper. You should get these

tested first before changing your medication and get your adrenals tested via a

24 hour salivary adrenal profile. You should also get the blood test to check

you do not have Candida antibodies. If any of these are present, you could get

serious problems taking Armour Thyroid. How much were you taking by the way.

What dose did you start on and how long was it before you increased your dose.

When taking levothyroxine only, your TSH is usually around 1.0

in a reference range of 0.5 to 5.0. That's good and shows it is working for you

OK. Your FT4 is usually in the upper third of the reference range, and if you

are lucky enough to get the test, so is your FT3. However, we all know, and

your endocrinologist should have known that when taking all the thyroid

hormones, your TSH is completely suppressed. This is because there is no need

for ANY TSH as you have sufficient T4 and T3 in Armour. Your FT4 is above the

half way mark in the reference range, and your Free T3 is naturally very high

in the range. Not sure what you mean when you say your FT3 was " far too

high to be healthy " . What was your TSH and your FT4 result?

For people such as you, Armour is not the medication you need,

but for others, it is a wonderful supplement. It is very dangerous to be

taken in by listening to what others say about a medication and get the facts

first before starting yourself on it. Continue taking your levothyroxine, and

if you are on the correct dose that is making you well again, that is splendid.

I hope you continue to do well.

Your story is a lesson for us all - so many thanks for telling

it.

Sheila

I tried Armour Thyroid because I read that it

would be o.k. for my hypothyroidism and people I was communicating with kept

telling me that it was o.k. But anyway I went to see a specialist in hypothyroidism,

he did a blood test and showed me that my T3 was terribly high far to high

infact to be healthy, I was also feeling very anxious because of the Armour and

too much T3, he told me that I didn't need Armour Thyroid because my body was

already making enough T3 and said I would be o.k. on Levothyroxine. I have been

taking the Levothyroxine for a number of weeks and feel alot better. So it just

goes to show that Armour Thyroid doesn't suit everyone, maybe some people need

it because their body doesn't produce enough T3, but mine certainly does, and I

was feeling ill taking Armour, but I listened to all the hype about Armour and

thought it was o.k. but it wasn't. Also it will save me alot of money.

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18:02:00

[Guest guest]

Hiya

I was ok ish on levo for many years but my body did go down the pan over the

years healthwise (always had lingering symptoms associated with hypo). So who

knows? I am doing better on NDTH now but I can see what you mean. You may have

something else going on that meant you couldn't tolerate armour and you were

certainly taking too much if you were that high in T3. The thing about Armour is

it does show up the conditions that exist alongside your hypo because it needs a

perfectly optimum amount of ferritin, vit D, cortisol to work properly, female

hormones are important to be in balance too.

So yes, most of us have already been on levothyroxine before we try the natural

or the T3 as it is much easier to take and is free on the NHS.

Good luck hon, hope you are really well for many many years

luv Dawnx

[Guest guest]

Hi Greenbecky,

Were you taking levothyroxine before you changed to

Armour?- if you were feeling well on Levo, why did you change in the

first place? Yes Armour does work, but sometimes has to be balanced with

the other thyroid hormones to suit the individual. A healthy thyroid

produced 10% T3, so it is common sense to replace that amount, but

Armour does contain more than that- which is normal for the pig- for

some of us that is an advantage, but not all.

Subject: A problem with Armour Thyroid

I tried Armour Thyroid because I read that it would be o.k. for my

hypothyroidism and people I was communicating with kept telling me that

it was o.k. But anyway I went to see a specialist in hypothyroidism,he

did a blood test and showed me that my T3 was terribly high far to high

infact to be healthy, I was also feeling very anxious because of the

Armour and too much T3, he told me that I didn't need Armour Thyroid

because my body was already making enough T3 and said I would be o.k. on

Levothyroxine. I have been taking the Levothyroxine for a number of

weeks and feel alot better. So it just goes to show that Armour Thyroid

doesn't suit everyone, maybe some people need it because their body

doesn't produce enough T3, but mine certainly does, and I was feeling

ill taking Armour, but I listened to all the hype about Armour and

thought it was o.k. but it wasn't. Also it will save me alot of money.

------------------------------------

TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical

practitioner before changing medication.

[Guest guest]

Don't people have to worry about all these factors if they are taking thyroxine?

Unfortunately, because my TSH was " only " 5.5 when the range was up to 6 I never

had the opportunity to try thyroxine. I assumed that as Armour didn't suit me

that thyroxine wouldn't have either, but it appears now that some people

tolerate thyroxine and don't tolerate Armour.

Why is that? I thought the problem with thyroxine was that you might not have

sufficient enzymes to convert the T4 to T3, but as Armour contains even less T4

and more T3 that should make the situation better, not worse, shouldn't it?

So now I am wondering whether I would do OK on thyroxine, but I have not had a

trial of it. Please comment.

Miriam

> When people start a medication such as Armour thyroid, because it contains all

the thyroid hormones your body requires, you need first, to ensure your adrenals

are able to cope. You need to ensure you do not have low ferritin, B12, Vitamin

D3, magnesium, zinc and copper. You should get these tested first before

changing your medication and get your adrenals tested via a 24 hour salivary

adrenal profile. You should also get the blood test to check you do not have

Candida antibodies. If any of these are present, you could get serious problems

taking Armour Thyroid.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Miriam,

why do say Armour didn't suit you?

Freesia

> > When people start a medication such as Armour thyroid, because it contains

all the thyroid hormones your body requires, you need first, to ensure your

adrenals are able to cope. You need to ensure you do not have low ferritin, B12,

Vitamin D3, magnesium, zinc and copper. You should get these tested first before

changing your medication and get your adrenals tested via a 24 hour salivary

adrenal profile. You should also get the blood test to check you do not have

Candida antibodies. If any of these are present, you could get serious problems

taking Armour Thyroid.

>

[Guest guest]

Not

necessarily Miriam. Many people are fine and have no problems going direct onto

thyroid hormone replacement whether synthetic or natural, but for many who have

been ill for quite some time, there 'associated conditions' which need to be

checked out if the thyroid supplement doesn't work. It also appears that some

people tolerate Armour and can't tolerate synthetic thyroxine. There are many

and varied reasons why people are unable to convert T4 to T3, again whether

synthetic or natural doesn't make much difference. Apart from the obvious

associated conditions we keep mentioning, there are many other conditions

that may reduce the conversion of T4 to T3, e.g. aging, obesity, disease,

stress, exercise, malnutrition, etc., potentially reducing the efficacy of a T4

alone treatment, and in which a natural or synthetic T4/T3 treatment may be

more effective.

There

are also toxic substances such as phenols, cadmium, and mercury and medications

such as propranolol, amiodarone and several others that may interfere by

inhibiting the T4 to T3 conversion.

Deficiencies

in hormones, such as T3 itself, TSH, growth hormone, insulin, cortisone and

certain trace elements such as selenium, iron, zinc, copper, iodine partially

block this essential conversion step for thyroid function.

On

the other hand, excess hormones such as glucocorticoids, ACTH, oestrogens and

some trace elements may slow down the conversion of T4 to T3.

I

consider myself one of the lucky one's that did fine on thyroid hormone

replacement- well, I did when I changed to natural thyroid extract, with no

associated conditions whatsoever.

There

is no reason why anybody who hasn't tried synthetic thyroxine shouldn't give it

a go to see if it works for them. However, I guess there is a reason (such as

any of the above) why you couldn't tolerate Armour, and I think it might follow

that if you have the same condition(s) now, you would not be able to tolerate

levothyroxine either. I don't really hear of those who can't tolerate Armour

but who tolerate T4 only, because I guess the majority of people who started

Armour did so because they didn't do well on T4 only. Starting to sound double

Dutch isn't it?

If

everything is in order - i.e. your adrenals, candida, Vit B12, Vit D3,

magnesium, zinc, copper and those mentioned above, then certainly, I would feel

very tempted to give levothyroxine a try.

Luv

- Sheila

Don't people have to worry about all these

factors if they are taking thyroxine?

Unfortunately, because my TSH was " only " 5.5 when the range was up to

6 I never had the opportunity to try thyroxine. I assumed that as Armour didn't

suit me that thyroxine wouldn't have either, but it appears now that some

people tolerate thyroxine and don't tolerate Armour.

Why is that? I thought the problem with thyroxine was that you might not have

sufficient enzymes to convert the T4 to T3, but as Armour contains even less T4

and more T3 that should make the situation better, not worse, shouldn't it?

[Guest guest]

This is exactly what I find so confusing. If there is some reason Greenbecky

can't tolerate Armour, then surely that same problem should prevent her

tolerating thyroxine, but that obviously isn't the case.

Miriam

> There is no reason why anybody who hasn't tried synthetic thyroxine

> shouldn't give it a go to see if it works for them. However, I guess there is

a reason (such as any of the above) why you couldn't tolerate Armour, and I

think it might follow that if you have the same condition(s) now, you would not

be able to tolerate levothyroxine either.

[Guest guest]

Over the course of three months I managed to increase the Armour gradually to

two tablets per day, but I wasn't experiencing any benefits. Dr P said one of

the first things I might notice was less muscle pain, but that wasn't happening.

Also my palpitations were getting worse (though they are 'normal' for me) and I

was getting shakier (though that is 'normal' too!). One day I was doing some

sewing and my hand was shaking so much I couldn't thread the needle, so I

thought, " There is definitely something wrong here. " I talked it over with Dr P

and he suggested I try T3.

After 3 months on T3 I have noticed less muscle pain and better recovery after

exercise. I am still waiting to have more energy and less brain fog, but hope

that will come eventually. I can only increase very gradually - about half a

tablet every 2 months.

Miriam

> why do say Armour didn't suit you?

> Freesia

[Guest guest]

Sometimes, we only get half a story Miriam. It is a

complete mystery to me why anybody who was on levothyroxine and doing so very

well, converting so very well and getting it free from the NHS would suddenly

feel the desire to go outside of the NHS and pay privately for Armour. One of

the reasons why people might do better on Armour than they do on levothyroxine is

because they were unable to tolerate the fillers in Armour. We need an

explanation from Greenbecky why she went on Armour in the first place - what

dose she started on and when she increased it and by what amount - I have asked

these questions but s/he hasn't come back yet. What s/he states simply doesn't

make any sense to me, so I hope s/he comes back with answers to those questions.

Luv

- Sheila

This is exactly what I find so confusing. If

there is some reason Greenbecky can't tolerate Armour, then surely that same

problem should prevent her tolerating thyroxine, but that obviously isn't the

case.

Miriam

> There is no reason why anybody who hasn't tried synthetic thyroxine

> shouldn't give it a go to see if it works for them. However, I guess there

is a reason (such as any of the above) why you couldn't tolerate Armour, and I

think it might follow that if you have the same condition(s) now, you would not

be able to tolerate levothyroxine either.

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18:03:00

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree we don't have enough information to make any sense of it at the

moment.

Miriam

> It is a complete mystery to me why anybody who was on levothyroxine and doing

so very well, converting so very well and getting it free from the NHS would

suddenly feel the desire to

> go outside of the NHS and pay privately for Armour.

[Guest guest]

Sorry Miriam, I need to go 'off duty'. I meant to write

" one of the reasons why people might do better on Armour than they do on

levothyroxine is because they were unable to tolerate the fillers in

LEVOTHYROXINE - not Armour.

Luv

-- Sheila

Sometimes, we only get half a story Miriam.

It is a complete mystery to me why anybody who was on levothyroxine and

doing so very well, converting so very well and getting it free from the NHS

would suddenly feel the desire to go outside of the NHS and pay privately for

Armour. One of the reasons why

people might do better on Armour than they do on levothyroxine is because they

were unable to tolerate the fillers in Armour. We need an explanation

from Greenbecky why she went on Armour in the first place - what dose she

started on and when she increased it and by what amount - I have asked these

questions but s/he hasn't come back yet. What s/he states simply doesn't make

any sense to me, so I hope s/he comes back with answers to those questions.

Luv - Sheila

This is exactly what I find so confusing. If there is some reason Greenbecky

can't tolerate Armour, then surely that same problem should prevent her

tolerating thyroxine, but that obviously isn't the case.

Miriam

> There is no reason why anybody who hasn't tried synthetic thyroxine

> shouldn't give it a go to see if it works for them. However, I guess there

is a reason (such as any of the above) why you couldn't tolerate Armour, and I

think it might follow that if you have the same condition(s) now, you would not

be able to tolerate levothyroxine either.

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18:03:00

[Guest guest]

Oh dear! So we are actually left with no possible reasons why someone might do

well on thyroxine and not on Armour. I did wonder, too, what would have

happened to such a person in the days when natural animal thyroid extract was

the only treatment available. Didn't you say it had been in use for about 100

years? Thyroxine is a relatively new treatment.

Miriam

> Sorry Miriam, I need to go 'off duty'. I meant to write " one of the reasons

why people might do better on Armour than they do on levothyroxine is because

they were unable to tolerate the fillers in LEVOTHYROXINE - not Armour.

> Luv -- Sheila

[Guest guest]

I to had the same thought Miriam, when armour was the only available treatment what did people do who couldnt tollerate it?

Oh dear! So we are actually left with no possible reasons why someone might do well on thyroxine and not on Armour.Miriam

> Sorry Miriam, I need to go 'off duty'. I meant to write "one of the reasons why people might do better on Armour than they do on levothyroxine is because they were unable to tolerate the fillers in LEVOTHYROXINE - not Armour.> Luv -- Sheila

[Guest guest]

Natural Thyroid extract has been used since 1894 and was used

exclusively for over 50 years for everybody who was diagnosed with

hypothyroidism. There were no problems with its safety or efficacy until the

'Hoax' batch was put out deliberately in order to promote levothyroxine and

tried to give thyroid extract a bad name. There was no such diseases as CFS, ME

or FM in those days, and these were only 'invented' after the blood tests were

manufactured to enable doctors to give a 'diagnosis' to those who had symptoms,

but who's blood results came back within the reference range. Thyroxine

has been around since the 1930's but became 'the treatment of choice' from the

middle of the 1970's when thyroid extract fell out of favour.

Luv - Sheila

Oh dear! So we are actually left with no possible reasons

why someone might do well on thyroxine and not on Armour. I did wonder, too,

what would have happened to such a person in the days when natural animal thyroid

extract was the only treatment available. Didn't you say it had been in use for

about 100 years? Thyroxine is a relatively new treatment.

Miriam

[Guest guest]

Hi Miriam,

You may have done perfectly well on thyroxine, as most folk

can convert to some extent, but remember our survey said that 78% of

folk did not feel so well on thyroxine as they did before they became

hypo. Maybe if you stopped the Armour and then had a TSH some 6 weeks

later your TSH may have moved into the diagnosis range, but it's up to

you if you want to try this drastic experiment- I wouldn't.

There are artificial T4/T3 combos out there which have the correct

human ratio of T4 /T3, but this would not contain the other minor

fractions of thyroid hormones that may have an effect. We all do not

react the same. I feel best on Armour and T3, Terrible on T4, pretty bad

on T4/T3 and pretty good on T3 alone, but other folk have found

different.

Folk on T4 don't worry because they are often too brain fogged to think

and are not told anything- I certainly wasn't.

Subject: Re: A problem with Armour Thyroid

Don't people have to worry about all these factors if they are taking

thyroxine?

Unfortunately, because my TSH was " only " 5.5 when the range was up to 6

I never had the opportunity to try thyroxine. I assumed that as Armour

didn't suit me that thyroxine wouldn't have either, but it appears now

that some people tolerate thyroxine and don't tolerate Armour.

Why is that? I thought the problem with thyroxine was that you might

not have sufficient enzymes to convert the T4 to T3, but as Armour

contains even less T4 and more T3 that should make the situation better,

not worse, shouldn't it?

So now I am wondering whether I would do OK on thyroxine, but I have not

had a trial of it. Please comment.

Miriam

------------------------------------

TPA is not medically qualified. Consult with a qualified medical

practitioner before changing medication.

[Guest guest]

I had to laugh at

your last sentence because this is absolutely true - but I shouldn't

laugh. This is so serious that people are having to endure their misery on T4

only because their doctors tell them it's not their thyroid giving them their

symptoms - they are suffering from Weetman's " functional somatoform

disorder " . They need T3 as well as T4 in order for their brain to work

luv - Sheila

Folk on T4 don't worry because they are often too brain fogged to think

and are not told anything- I certainly wasn't.

[Guest guest]

That's the point , there wasn't a particular problem with

this. People get all the thyroid hormones they need with natural thyroid

extract. However, for those who didn't do well, it would be probably because

they were suffering with one of the associated conditions that went alongside

being hypothyroid and once those were sorted, then their natural thyroid

extract probably worked. There were definitely NOT the problems that we find

using synthetic thyroxine only today.

luv - Sheila

I to had the same thought

Miriam, when armour was the only available treatment what did people do who

couldnt tollerate it?

> Sorry Miriam, I need to go 'off duty'. I meant to write " one of the

reasons why people might do better on Armour than they do on levothyroxine is

because they were unable to tolerate the fillers in LEVOTHYROXINE - not

Armour.

> Luv -- Sheila

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17:53:00

[Guest guest]

>>>when armour was the only available treatment what did people do who couldn't tolerate it?<<<

R.I.P.?

Lilian

[Guest guest]

>>> They need T3 as well as T4 in order for their brain to work<<<

Perhaps some doctors need a touch of T3 then

Lilian

[Guest guest]

Your brain is certainly functioning OK today Lilian -

your last two messages really made me laugh.

Luv - Sheila

>>> They need T3

as well as T4 in order for their brain to work<<<

Perhaps some doctors need a

touch of T3 then

Lilian

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17:53:00

[Guest guest]

Lilian I reckon they need their thyroid suppressed to a TSH of 10 for 6 months

and then see if its such a good idea !!!!!

Freeman

>

> >>> They need T3 as well as T4 in order for their brain to work<<<

>

> Perhaps some doctors need a touch of T3 then

>

> Lilian

>

[Guest guest]

Sheila wrote:

This is so serious that people are having to endure

> their misery on T4 only because their doctors tell them it's not their thyroid

giving them their symptoms

Yes exactly what my GP implied, she told me not to look into it so much and just

get on with it ( Life I guess she meant) I wouldn't mind but she is hypo too and

she looks dreadful goodness knows how she feels! Hence taking my own health into

my own hands.judy

>

> I had to laugh at your last sentence because this is absolutely true -

> but I shouldn't laugh. This is so serious that people are having to endure

> their misery on T4 only because their doctors tell them it's not their

> thyroid giving them their symptoms - they are suffering from Weetman's

> " functional somatoform disorder " . They need T3 as well as T4 in order for

> their brain to work

>

> luv - Sheila

>

>

> Folk on T4 don't worry because they are often too brain fogged to think

> and are not told anything- I certainly wasn't.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , how nice that I now know who you are as we met in Yorkshire. I didn't

do well on Armour and am currently taking T3 only. I had assumed this was

because of a problem converting T4 to T3, but this woman claiming she does well

on thyroxine and not on Armour has made me wonder whether there could be other

factors involved. However, as she hasn't posted again to give us further

details I am beginning to wonder whether it is a genuine example.

In fact my most recent TSH before embarking on treatment had gone down a little,

perhaps because of some co-factors? I don't have autoimmune disease so I don't

expect an inevitable deterioration. I'm not sure how I would ever get a

diagnosis, but for now the main thing is to see how well I can become.

Miriam

> You may have done perfectly well on thyroxine, as most folk can

convert to some extent, but remember our survey said that 78% of folk did not

feel so well on thyroxine as they did before they became hypo. Maybe if you

stopped the Armour and then had a TSH some 6 weeks later your TSH may have moved

into the diagnosis range, but it's up to you if you want to try this drastic

experiment- I wouldn't.

[Guest guest]

What if only Armour was available and no T3 alone? What I would do, personally,

would be to take a small dose of Armour and put up with some degree of shakiness

and palpitations. I already had those problems before and it was just a matter

of degree. As I am doing much better on the T3 I am assuming I got some benefit

from the T3 in Armour, but was being made toxic by unconverted T4. This is only

an assumption though. So I would have had to put up with a compromise solution

if T3 alone hadn't been available.

Maybe by giving very close attention to all the cofactors I might have

eventually come to tolerate it better. However, Dr P thinks my problems are

related to my condition being neglected for nearly 20 years. I expect in the

olden days, when doctors used to give a trial of thyroid hormone in order to

test out whether you were hypothyroid, you wouldn't have been left in such a

state for so long.

What I would really like, would be something like Armour but with the T4 taken

out. It annoys me that pharmaceutical companies have to alter a natural product

simply so that they can patent it. I'm sure they are perfectly capable of

producing bio-identical T3, but they don't for financial reasons. I don't see

how something that has been tweaked can be as good.

Miriam

> I too had the same thought Miriam, when Armour was the only available

treatment what did people do who couldn't tolerate it?

[Guest guest]

What if only Armour was available and no T3 alone? What I

would do, personally, would be to take a small dose of Armour and put up with

some degree of shakiness and palpitations. I already had those problems before

and it was just a matter of degree. As I am doing much better on the T3 I am

assuming I got some benefit from the T3 in Armour, but was being made toxic by

unconverted T4. This is only an assumption though. So I would have had to put

up with a compromise solution if T3 alone hadn't been available.

I guess you would need to find the reason WHY you are unable to

use Armour Miriam. There must be an underlying cause such as one of the

associated conditions that stops the thyroid hormones being utilised by the

cells/tissue.

Maybe by giving very close attention to all the cofactors I might have

eventually come to tolerate it better. However, Dr P thinks my problems are

related to my condition being neglected for nearly 20 years. I expect in the

olden days, when doctors used to give a trial of thyroid hormone in order to

test out whether you were hypothyroid, you wouldn't have been left in such a

state for so long.

Probably BECAUSE your condition has been neglected you have low

adrenal reserve. This is often the answer. Also, you need to check out all the

other associated conditions, each and every one of them to make sure you are

not low in ferritin, B12, Vitamin D3, magnesium, zinc or copper. You may also

have systemic candidiasis or mercury poisoning due to any amalgam fillings.

check especially the Vitamin D3. This really is a problem for more people than

we realise.

What I would really like, would be something like Armour but with the T4 taken

out. It annoys me that pharmaceutical companies have to alter a natural product

simply so that they can patent it. I'm sure they are perfectly capable of

producing bio-identical T3, but they don't for financial reasons. I don't see

how something that has been tweaked can be as good.

Hmmm!

Luv - Sheila

Miriam

> I too had the same thought Miriam, when Armour was the only available

treatment what did people do who couldn't tolerate it?

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