Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:46:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mcpherson.bg@... writes:

Are the recomendations for protein quantities mostly so that one doesn't get

hungry, or do we really need it for optimum health?

Yes and yes. Os who eat predominately protein and fat speed up their

metabolism and find their ideal weight. Their hunger is also sated and they're

not

as likely to cheat with carbs.

[Guest guest]

How true, when I try to gulp down food, I need liquid to wash it down but when I

pay attention to my chewing and do it appropriately, I actually get enough

liquid in my mouth with the said food to swallow. It just makes sense that

proper chewing would increase the digestive juices as opposed to another liquid

taking the place of the saliva which would actually decrease the digestive

juices needed to digest the food.

Hugs,

Michele T.

CFS/FMS/Arthritis

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

THOMAS DEKANY wrote:

> Drink between meals away from food or before you eat, but not after

> unless it is something like a warm tea.

Why do you say that?

You body will enjoy the liquid whenever you drink it - and if you eat a

" dry " meal you will not digest it very well, as all food needs a good

deal of liquid to dissolve in before it can even be absorbed.

Do not listed to the stories about " diluting " digestive juices. They are

an old wives tale. Your digestive juices have to do with total amount of

digestive juice present - not how much water it is in.

Think this way: If you swallow a teaspoon of ascorbic acid powder all by

itself - you will hopefully get a teaspoon of Vit C into you.

If you swallow the same amount in a cup of water - you will still get a

teaspoon of Vitamin C into you, but this time it will dissolve properly

and be absorbed instead of giving your stomach lining a hard time - or

going through to the intestine because it had too little fluid to

dissolve it.

NOTHING gets absorbed unless it is properly dissolved. SO failing to

drink enough with meals is a very bad idea. And drinking a lot with

meals does not " dilute " the ability to digest - quite the opposite - it

improves the ability to digest - the same way you can absorb vitamin C

better in liquid than without it.

So drink up - any time you like. Be reasonable:

If you drink a gallon water at a meal, you may not have *space* to fit

in any food. But having plenty of liquid to dissolve the food particles

helps digestion to occur well. Often if you have indigestion it is

simply because there was not enough liquid to dissolve everything. Drink

more and it will come right - you don't need an " antacid " every time

your insides yell that " the acid needs some diluting here please so it

can work on the food instead of the stomach walls " !

Namaste,

Irene

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

>>It is not possible for water, tea etc to " decrease " digestive juices.

**No, but surely they are less effective if diluted with more fluid ?

)

Be a Transformer, Not a Conformer,

Observe the Masses, And then do the Opposite !

http://www.freewebs.com/inspire/

[Guest guest]

) wrote:

>>>It is not possible for water, tea etc to " decrease " digestive juices.

>>

> **No, but surely they are less effective if diluted with more fluid ?

No not at all.

It's like the example with sugar - you would get the same sugar calories

whether diluted or not - and with digestive juices they are equally

" still all there " if you add water.

Same with amy food you buy - what's on the nutrition label stays

what's in the food whether you add water or not.

If anything, a reasonable amount of water will enhance digestion,

because it is chemically impossible to break down food into its

component parts - and also to absorb it - unless it is properly diluted

in sufficient water.

If you overdo it to the point where your stomach has to let some water

out at the other end due to being too full, that would be going overboard.

Dilution of a substance in this case means the digestive juices are

still all there. You may be thinking of the kind of dilution where you

START with a small amount and add a lot of water. Here you have a full

quota of digestive juices as determined by the food components landing

in the stomach as per the nutrition label - so much protein, so much

fat, so much carb, and the amount of digestive juice is set by that.

Adding water only serves to enhance the working medium in which those

enzymes and juices have to work.

So in this case adding water is not reducing the starting amount

available to do the job. It's the same starting amount of digestive

juice and chemically it can do the same number of reactions - what goes

in must come out. It's a law of physics that reactions do not lose

anything - what starts out on the left of the equation will always be

present on the right. Water is necessary because reactions - including

those for digestion - happen only after everything is dissolved.

You must have seen it when baking a cake - if you add the baking powder

to the liquid too soon it starts reacting - and fizzing or making

bubbles. But so long as it is dry, it sits on the shelf indefinitely. It

has to dissolve to do anything. A teaspoon of baking powder makes the

same total amount of fizz/bubble/gas - regardless of how much water

there is - except that too little water will prevent the reaction at

least partially.

Food is like the cake ingredients. Digestive juice is like the baking

powder - and it all works for the cake to rise or the digestion to

happen - only if there is enough liquid for the job.

Namaste,

Irene

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

The question is not whether there is the same amount of sugar - it's the

effectiveness of the sugar that is present.

Using your example, which tastes sweeter, your first solution or your second

solution? Which would sweeten a cup of tea better, a teaspoon of your

first solution, or a teaspoon of your second solution?

Which would take off nail polish better, a tablespoon of polish remover, or

a tablespoon of polish remover diluted in water?

Which digests food better, being surrounded by digestive acids, or those

same acids being diluted in water?

Adding liquid changes the Ph of the liquid. If you have too much baking

soda in a glass of water, what do you do? You add more water. Why? Do

dilute it.

I did run across a website the other night on this subject that said

something to the effect that your own personal body chemistry makes a

difference in whether or not you should drink water with meals. Folks with

a high acidity level should drink water, those who have a low body acidity

should not.

;-) Ellen

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

> You can see the relevance of this first hand if you do a little

> experiment with sugar:

> Put a 2 tablespoons sugar in each of two cups.

> Now add 2 tablespoons of water top the first cup - and fill the 2nd cup

> with water.

> Stir both and see which dissolves easier.

> Also notice that both mixtures have the same amount of sugar present

> regardless how much water there is. So adding more water did NOT reduce

> the amount of sugar in the 2nd cup.

> Nor will adding water reduce the amount of digestive juices in your

> stomach.

>

> If the sugar was digestive juice - it would be the same idea - same

> amount regardless how much water or saliva or tea or coffee is added.

> The water is important to help the food dissolve so it can be absorbed.

>

> Basically if you have 2 chairs in a room, and you add 2 beds, the beds

> being there do not mean there are less chairs.

> Namaste,

> Irene

[Guest guest]

Ellen wrote:

> The question is not whether there is the same amount of sugar - it's the

> effectiveness of the sugar that is present.

In the case of digestive juices it IS " the same amount of sugar " .

When you eat a 1 inch piece of steak, your system will secrete an exact

amount of acid to digest a 1 inch piece of steak - regardless of how

much water you add.

> Using your example, which tastes sweeter

No I did not use the example of which tastes sweeter - that's not

relevant. We do not need to know how acid the stomach contents taste either.

The question is how much total sugar is present - or how much total

digestive juice is present, respectively.

In other words if say a diabetic person had 2 tablespoons of sugar in 2

tablespoons of water - would that raise their blood glucose more than if

they took 2 tablespoons of sugar in a cup of water?

The answer is that the effect on blood glucose is the same because the

water is just a diluent - a carrier - it is not part of the essential

reaction except to dissolve the sugar.

> your first solution or your second

> solution? Which would sweeten a cup of tea better, a teaspoon of your

> first solution, or a teaspoon of your second solution?

That's not the issue.

Your body does not suddenly resorb most of the digestive juice because

you failed to ingest enough water. For a given amount of steak it will

secrete the right amount of digestive juice. Whether you drink a little

water or a lot. The *total* digestive juice is fixed.

So the total sugar in my two examples is also fixed. You do not get to

leave out some and use a teaspoon only.

> Which would take off nail polish better, a tablespoon of polish remover, or

> a tablespoon of polish remover diluted in water?

Actually if you could get the whole lot dissolved - it would be the same

with either version - provided you used ALL of each version and not just

a little.

> Which digests food better, being surrounded by digestive acids, or those

> same acids being diluted in water?

The same amount of acid diluted in water works better as things dissolve

better.

> Adding liquid changes the Ph of the liquid.

Yes but not the reactivity which is determined by dissociation ability

of the acid. We have hydrochloric acid - HCl in the stomach by design

because it dissociates very readily as well as being low pH and hence a

" strong " acid. The reactivity is determined by dissociation ability not

pH. That's why hydrofluoric acid which is a high pH acid will dissolve

your bones - it dissociates easily, and that more than pH is what counts

for reactions that are in dissolved solution as is digestion.

HCl is very reactive compared with acids that do not dissociate easily.

Dissociation means the H+ and the Cl- separate if there is enough

water so that each can take part in reactions. Reactions are needed for

digestion. If there is too little water, some of the acid remains as HCl

and can go nowhere, regardless of pH. It has to dissociate into H+ and

Cl- ions to do anything at all. In other words it has to dissolve. So

does the food all have to dissolve.

As for pH going up on drinking water - it does not change the total

number of H+ and Cl- ions available to do the job of digestion. It only

changes the number per unit area and thus if you stick your finger in it

less of those H+ and Cl- ions will touch your finger and you will get

less acid burn than if you let all the H+ and Cl- ions in there touch

your finger.But ALL of them are still available for digestion.

The acid if diluted will be less harsh on your stomach walls - as

less ions touch per unit area if diluted - which may be relevant for

some people with ulcers etc. That's where pH matters - ions per unit area.

But digestion reactions are not to do with surface area, they are to do

with total H+ and Cl- present overall. Each ion has a job it can do -

within a little or a lot of water.

Also by the way, pH of HCl does not change significantly when diluted.

Even a one in one hundred dilution only gets the pH of HCl up to 2.0

:-)) More than enough to disassemble bone.

> I did run across a website the other night on this subject that said

> something to the effect that your own personal body chemistry makes a

> difference in whether or not you should drink water with meals. Folks with

> a high acidity level should drink water, those who have a low body acidity

> should not.

Doesn't make chemical sense for the same reasons I have been discussing.

You don't list your reference but personally I do not put much store in

websites - anyone can write anything on any website, true or false. I

like to understand the chemistry as that's not just some opinion. I like

to see and understand the science behind it - my years of study with

molecules and how they behave have to be good for something after all :-)

I understand how things need to dissolve - I understand how the

total components at start of reaction equal those at the end - I

understand dissociation constants of acids and effect of pH. That helps

me make sense of all this. I may not explain it well, I dare say I am

struggling apparently to do so - but I am game to keep working at it :-)

Our bodies are so wonderfully well designed.

Namaste,

Irene

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

(not that I expect that Irene could ever be mistaken <lol>)

> I did not use the example of which tastes sweeter - that's not

> relevant.

Irene, I'm choosing to believe that you are not that dense. You used the

example of *SUGAR*, which is a sweetener, to explain the function of stomach

acid, which is *NOT* a sweetener. I was following your logic, using sugar

as its *intended* function, a sweetener, to explain stomach acid, which is

*NOT*, correct?

> I

> like to understand the chemistry as that's not just some opinion. I like

> to see and understand the science behind it - my years of study with

> molecules and how they behave have to be good for something after all :-)

Yes...years...

I just see too many variations of body chemistry, the amount of water in the

food eaten, quantity of water, quality of water, etc. to make so many cut

and dried statements. We know that type O's have a higher than usual amount

of acid in their bodies, right? does that make an impact on whether or not

(or how much) water should be taken with meals?

I make no bones about it, I don't have all the answers, but I also know that

there are too many variables to be so sure about everything.

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Ellen wrote:

> (not that I expect that Irene could ever be mistaken <lol>)

>

Say it to yourself, and LOL does not make it less rude.

What is it with people that if they do not feel like following a logical

discussion on a non-personal topic like digestion and how it works, they

attack the writer personally?

>>[irene]I did not use the example of which tastes sweeter - that's not

>>relevant.

> Irene, I'm choosing to believe that you are not that dense.

Such polite ways you have. It sucks.

However - On the contrary - which example tastes sweeter is NOT the

point. Nor is it relevant whether stomach acid is dilute or tastes acid

or not.

What is relevant is your lack of politeness. Politeness is something I

appreciate and am asking you to offer.

It does not matter for THIS discussion whether the gastric juice TASTES

more or less acid or the sugar TASTES more of less sweet.

We are concerned with quantity needed to do a chemical job not a taste

job. Quantity of sugar molecules (regardless of the water it is in) is

relevant in sweetening tea - and quantity of molecules of digestive

chemical is likewise relevant in digestion regardless of the water it is in.

Only the total acid present matters for THIS discussion.

The total sugar in each example is the point, just as the TOTAL gastric

juice in the stomach is the point.

Your stomach does not suddenly resorb all the gastric juice it just

secreted because you drank water. Yet that seems to be your contention.

If you ate 1 cube of meat, it secretes acid for 1 cube of meat

regardless how much water you drink and that acid will ALL be there (not

just a part of it) before and after you drink, in the exact same total

amount. That is what counts.

Here's another way to see it:

Let's say one morsel of steak needs 100 H+ and 100 Cl- from 100 HCl

molecules, to digest it.

So you eat the morsel and your stomach excretes 100 HCl molecules to

digest it. The HCl just sits there doing nothing because there is no water.

You then drink 50 molecules of water and that allows SOME of the HCl to

turn into H+ and Cl- and that will enable digestion of SOME of the

morsel you ate. Not all of it because there is not yet enough water to

dissociate all the HCl needed into H+ and Cl-. Ther rest of the HCl is

still sitting there doing nothing because there is no water to dissolve

it into H+ and Cl-.

HCl can not do work without first being turned into H+ and Cl- ions by

being dissolved in water.

However if you now drink a lot more water molecules, the rest of the HCl

will be able to dissociate into H+ and Cl- and there will now be the

full needed amount of 100 H+ and 100 Cl- ions as needed to totally

digest the meat morsel.

So too little water with the meal will not allow proper digestion, as

the HCl will not dissociate completely. It may try to steal water from

the stomach lining cells - expect a stomach ulcer if so.

If you now drink even MORE water than the minimum needed to dissociate

100 molecules of HCl, there will still be 100 H+ and 100 Cl- in the

mixture in the stomach and that will still be what's needed for the 1

morsel of meat.

It does not matter how dilute it is - it only matters to have 100 of

each H+ and Cl- ion dissociated for one morsel of meat. (You need still

more water to ensure the meat morsel components are also dissolved.)

Your stomach will not suddenly resorb some of the H+ and Cl- because you

drank extra water. It is *all* still there - all 100 of each - and still

working on your meat morsel.

And Ellen - Your rudeness is not okay. This has not got to do with

" whether Irene is mistaken " or " whether Irene is dumb " or " whether Irene

paid for many years to learn something so as to help others " .

The discussion is not about what I know or do not know - it is about

how digestion occurs. And if you can't be bothered to look up some

information on that or ask questions on the topic of digestion, it is

not an excuse to be rude to me for sharing what I did bother to find out

and share.

If you can't follow my explanation or do not want to, then be polite and

opt out of the discussion on digestion - without being rude to the writer.

Namaste,

Irene

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

> Ellen wrote:

>> (not that I expect that Irene could ever be mistaken <lol>)

>>

>

> Say it to yourself, and LOL does not make it less rude.

> What is it with people that if they do not feel like following a logical

> discussion on a non-personal topic like digestion and how it works, they

> attack the writer personally?

I've just learned that there are a few folks out there that simply " cannot "

be wrong. Ever.

In the long run, it doesn't help the cause.

[Guest guest]

What I actually meant here is that if you fill your mouth with water you do not

give your mouth time to salivate so less saliva = less digestive juices.

Hugs,

Michele T.

CFS/FMS/Arthritis

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

Michele Townsend wrote:

<<< as opposed to another liquid taking the place of the saliva which

would actually decrease the digestive juices needed to digest the food.>>>

It is not possible for water, tea etc to " decrease " digestive juices.

The digestive juices are there in the same amount with the same chemical

digestive ability whether other things are there too or not. The only

way to decrease the digestive ability os to have too little water to

dissolve it properly.

You can see the relevance of this first hand if you do a little

experiment with sugar:

Put a 2 tablespoons sugar in each of two cups.

Now add 2 tablespoons of water top the first cup - and fill the 2nd cup

with water.

Stir both and see which dissolves easier.

Also notice that both mixtures have the same amount of sugar present

regardless how much water there is. So adding more water did NOT reduce

the amount of sugar in the 2nd cup.

Nor will adding water reduce the amount of digestive juices in your stomach.

If the sugar was digestive juice - it would be the same idea - same

amount regardless how much water or saliva or tea or coffee is added.

The water is important to help the food dissolve so it can be absorbed.

Basically if you have 2 chairs in a room, and you add 2 beds, the beds

being there do not mean there are less chairs.

Namaste,

Irene

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

Irene is right, people are being rude on this topic. How about not posting to

it any more? Thanks.

Hugs,

Michele T.

CFS/FMS/Arthritis

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

> Ellen wrote:

>> (not that I expect that Irene could ever be mistaken <lol>)

>>

>

> Say it to yourself, and LOL does not make it less rude.

> What is it with people that if they do not feel like following a logical

> discussion on a non-personal topic like digestion and how it works, they

> attack the writer personally?

I've just learned that there are a few folks out there that simply " cannot "

be wrong. Ever.

In the long run, it doesn't help the cause.

[Guest guest]

Ellen wrote:

>

> I've just learned that there are a few folks out there that simply " cannot "

> be wrong. Ever.

>

You must be referring to yourself?

> In the long run, it doesn't help the cause.

Indeed.

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

Michele Townsend wrote:

> What I actually meant here is that if you fill your mouth with water you do

not

give your mouth time to salivate so less saliva = less digestive juices.

Michele,

Your mouth will salivate in response to food whether there is water

there or not. " Digestive juices " usually refers to those in the stomach

- they do not come from saliva other than some amylase for starch/sugar

digestion.

This is why in carnivores they do not chew their food at all, just tear

it in pieces and swallow it, and in fact cats lack any amylase in their

saliva - they are not designed to handle starch or plants. Their jaws

don't move sideways as needed for chewing either.

It's valid I think that we need to chew starchy foods properly so as to

get more saliva to help carbohydrate digestion - but the saliva responds

to food with or without water, and if you swallow the saliva produced in

response to starch or chewing, then it will continue the job in your

stomach.

In carnivore eating - and type O is pretty close to that in some ways -

saliva is just there as a lubricant to make swallowing physically easier

- as it is in cats.

If you were only referring to starch digestion in the mouth with

amylase, then we were indeed talking at cross purposes. I was talking

about food swallowed for digestion in the stomach at a meal, and the

water taken at a meal.

Thanks for writing :-)

Namaste,

Irene

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

Irene and ,

You both are a wealth of information and we continue to learn a lot from both of

you as well as others in this group. Each of you have given good arguments for

what you think is right based on your education and experience. In the end each

of us is different and we must each make up our own minds. Now, since I've

stated my thoughts, you can each jump on me.

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

Ellen wrote:

>

> I've just learned that there are a few folks out there that simply " cannot "

> be wrong. Ever.

>

You must be referring to yourself?

> In the long run, it doesn't help the cause.

Indeed.

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

Why would we?

ABO Specifics Inc. - http://www.foodforyourblood.com

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

Irene and ,

You both are a wealth of information and we continue to learn a lot from

both of you as well as others in this group. Each of you have given good

arguments for what you think is right based on your education and

experience. In the end each of us is different and we must each make up

our own minds. Now, since I've stated my thoughts, you can each jump on

me.

Re: Carolyn's Diet plan

Ellen wrote:

>

> I've just learned that there are a few folks out there that simply

" cannot "

> be wrong. Ever.

>

You must be referring to yourself?

> In the long run, it doesn't help the cause.

Indeed.

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the compliment :-)

....Irene

Murray wrote:

> Irene and ,

> You both are a wealth of information and we continue to learn a lot from both

of you as well as others in this group. Each of you have given good arguments

for what you think is right based on your education and experience. In the end

each of us is different and we must each make up our own minds. Now, since I've

stated my thoughts, you can each jump on me.

>

--

Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom.

P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703.

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html

Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor.