Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 crestlinelady wrote: > > As soon as food is picked from the plant it begins losing nutrients. > It loses even more nutrients when it is then cooked, be it stovetop, > oven or microwave. True. It's one reason I like microwave cooking. It loses nutrients for a small time, and retains more of them. > The problem with microwaves is that it cooks by rapidly switching > positive and negative particles. That is the beauty of microwave cooking - not the " problem " with it. Alternating current (or AC for short) is what your electric company sends down your electric line to your house. It's what runs your hair drier and your regular oven too. (see: > http://www.gallawa.com/microtech/howcook.html) It is actually a good explanation of how electric energy is converted to heat energy in order to heat (=cook) food. You have characterized it a " problem " without suggesting why you do so. It makes good sense. > Some people are > allergic to food cooked this way. Some aren't. No that is not true and not possible. Allergies are immune system responses to foreign protein, involving development of antibodies (too many of them in the case of an allergy) in the bone marrow which respond in lieu of the Thymus cellular defence tat is more appropriate. I wrote a post quite recently on how an allergy works. There is no way that heating food (by any method) has anything to do with allergies. The proteins in the food are the only thing that can trigger an allergy - and that has nothing to do with how it is cooked. What can make a difference is WHETHER the food is cooked or not. Many proteins are broken down during cooking into amino acids that may not trigger an allergy where the complete protein does trigger an allergy. In such a case, if you *undercook* the food of the offending type which is allergic-making when uncooked - but safe when cooked - then you can expect an allergic reaction from undercooked food - regardless of what method of cooking was used. I have a situation something like that as regards banana for example. If I eat even a few molecules of raw banana I will get a life threatening allergic reaction. But if I taste cooked banana as in a banana muffin for example - the reaction is a lot less and I get a good twenty minutes to get hold of the antidote stuff compared to seconds with a raw banana. That effect - of protein breakdown when cooked - by any method - is the *only* way someone can be allergic to food cooked " differently " - it's a matter of being cooked less - by whatever method. Of course someone may have a psychological hang up about something and induce real symptoms in themselves due to that belief - my brother's like that. I only have to tell him a cat was in the room (if it was not) and he will get asthma and runny eyes right away. But that is a psychological problem, not a microwave/cat problem. So it's not physcially possible to have an allergy to microwave food. Namaste, Irene PS (My knowledge on allergy is real. I have an MSc in immunopharmacology and did medical research in allergy for many years, and I currently specialize in immune compromise diseases in my work.) -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 It could maybe possibly depend on the reaction. In 1991 a clinical study was done; Hans Hertel discovered significant changes in blood samples after eating microwaved food, including an increase of leukocytes (often signs of pathogenic effets, such as poisoning and cell damage. http://curezone.com/foods/microwave_oven_risk.html Re: microwave? > > Thank you, Irene. I wonder, then, what causes those rare folks wierd > responce to microwaved foods. Perhaps it IS nothing more than a > psychological reponse. > > Kathy R. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 I'm going to try to do this without " attacks " , okay? The attitude (no matter where it is fom) of attaking someone who doesn't fall into line with what a person believes as " full of nonsense " and " Such nonsense - waste of time. Written by the ignorant for the gullible and unaware " is less than helpful. After a very broad hint that I'm gullible and unaware, please drop the personal attacks. For those you are *interested* in learning about *both* sides, here are some tidbits: - Pediatrician A. Kerner, Jr. and his co-workers at Stanford University reported that breast milk that was microwaved lost lysozyme activity, antibodies, and fostered the growth of more potentially pathogenic bacteria. - Microwave cooking creates unique molecules, never before found in nature, called 'radiolytic byproducts' that are likely to cause health problems if continuously consumed, especially over decades of time. They are likely to be harmful to growing children. {'On Call,' Dr. , MD, Let's Live magazine, Mar. 1994} A group of microwave repair professionals found that over 56% of microwave ovens over 2 years old leak microwaves. There is not a lot of information out there, but then, the government is still telling that aspertame is safe and stevia cannot be used as a sweetener. Personally, I can't prove that microwaves are bad, all I can do is provide links to information and let those with open minds figure it out for themselves, whatever choice they make. Personally, I got rid of my microwave - and I'm not cooking on the stove that much more, just eating way more raw food. > As a homeopath - I have better things to do with my time than read and > debunk any more of that nonsense. > As a homeopath - I have better things to do with my time than read and > debunk any more of that nonsense. Then don't ok? Just try presenting your views without denigrating the other side and without hinting about gullibility and just stick to the facts (like you asked me to do). Thank you! ;-) Ellen Re: Re: microwave? > Ellen wrote: >> http://curezone.com/foods/microwave_oven_risk.html > > You meant it well but: > This page is full of nonsense. > Some non-scientific types obviously wrote it with no clue about the > difference between radiant heat and atomic radiation. > He has inserted atomic radiation ideas where they do not occur or belong > and made all sorts of other muddles. > > Radiant heat is the kind from the sun or from an electric heater that > sits in front or you plugged into the electric system - or from a gas > heater or from a hot flashlight or camera bulb or the heat from > microwaved food. > That is " radiant " heat and is the only kind of " radiation " involved in > microwaves. > It makes no differnce whether there is gas, electricity AC, DC or > chemical reaction heat involved. Heat is heat. And by the way the sun is > not DC energy as clained, it is atomic reaction heat! We are lucky to > have an ozone layer to keep dangerous atomic particles from teh sun out > of the atmosphere (thouh some get through) or we'd all be dead from > atomic radiation. THAT is atomic radiation heat - microwave heat is not > :-)) > > It is completely immaterial whether the radiant heat is generated by DC > or AC - both can cause electron friction and consequently heat what is > near to them. Electrons have no mas so they can not be hot - they can > only have energy transferred to what's near them - to heat the solid > aspects an atom. They are heated - no more no less. they are not moved > any more than the cells in your hands jump around when you rub them > together. > > The ignoramus who wrote the page then tried to pretend microwaves use > atomic radiation (bits of subatomic particles leaving thre nucleus of an > atom like an xray) - which he tried to explain and which has no > relevance or place in the discussion - but he has obviously not attended > a single chemistry class - he has that all muddled too. He speaks of > atoms losing an *electron* and calls that atomic radiation. Well no. > Atomic radiation - radiation from atomic particles smaller than an atom > in the nucleus of an atom (the part around which atoms spin like planets > around a sun) - involves particles *other* than electrons - like gamma > particles, x-ray particles and the like. > There is none of that in microwave oven technology. > And there is also no electron loss or gain between molecules or atoms as > he is trying to suggest. > Boy does he have his ideas in a scramble. > > Nor is there any " damage to atoms/food from friction " as he claims. > He's right that electrons are involved and move faster - but they are > not structures with an edge so they can not have friction damage - only > higher cell level structures can be friction-damaged, and that's not > what microwaves affect. The heating is from excitement of electrons (he > got right that electrons are involved, he's just out of it on how). > Electrons are made to move faster which means they cause heating - that > do not actually rub together literally. In fact electrons are > electricity - and not something you can touch - they can't rub together > - it is a physical impossibility. > > Microwave heat is like the heat you get in an electric wire that is not > thick enough for the job - the wire heats up due to electrons. THAT is > more how microwave heat works, - to do with transfer of heat from > electrons. We have another way to use heat from electrons in cold > climates - it is intentionally heated wire made so the electrons will be > inefficient and heat the coating on the wire - called heat tape. > > There's no way the food heated up is any different from food heated > another way. Any supposed blood differences are bogus. You can't get > blood difference from something (purported atomic radiation) that does > not occur in a microwave setting. > > You gotta wonder what the " Christian Law Institute " knows about > electricity, chemistry or physics. they made no attempt to let a junior > chemistry student check what they wrote - it would be called ludicrous. > Looks like they are hunting for an excuse to outlaw something they > *obviously* do not understand. > > They also re-hash the old examples of cooked blood being bad for you as > a transfusion (gee who would have guessed) and overheated baby's milk > might burn the baby - gee really? - or worse still overcooked milk might > actually not be so nutritious after that - again gee wow, such insight. > > Next came this little gem of baloney: > " A basic hypothesis of natural medicine states that the introduction > into the human body of molecules and energies, to which it is not > accustomed, is much more likely to cause harm than good. " > > Nobody has such an hypothesis - author must have invented it to suit > their purpose. > As a homeopath - I have better things to do with my time than read and > debunk any more of that nonsense. > Homeopathy is natural medicine last time I looked and every remedy is > obviously " unaccustomed energy " or it would have no effect. > > Yeach! > Such nonsense - waste of time. > Written by the ignorant for the gullible and unaware. > Sorry - I know it was posted with good intentions. > But it is a wonderful example of pure invented nonsense. > > Namaste, > Irene > -- > Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. > P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. > http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html > Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Re:Next came this little gem of baloney: " A basic hypothesis of natural medicine states that the introduction into the human body of molecules and energies, to which it is not accustomed, is much more likely to cause harm than good. " Irene, not having even an elementary understanding of science, I depend (right/wrong) on intuition which must be anathema to a scientist. It might even be somewhat psychizy for a scientist to try and incorporate the two--I'm asking your input on that issue out of curiosity. Anyways, in my limited way, I undertook the BT diet because it " sounded " sound. Re:m.o, If I read that above quote ,I probably would believe it since it " sounds " reasonable that a change in cooking methods might change the molecular make up of the food, etc. Sometimes, with all the science available, it takes years before science catches up with " intuition " . Those of us who take supplements for exp. and are encouraged by the " science " probably only hope and pray they're getting some benefit. I rarely cook in a m.o. out of fear and probably will continue not to. However, my gratitude again to your wonderful posts. Re: Re: microwave? Ellen wrote: > http://curezone.com/foods/microwave_oven_risk.html You meant it well but: This page is full of nonsense. Some non-scientific types obviously wrote it with no clue about the difference between radiant heat and atomic radiation. He has inserted atomic radiation ideas where they do not occur or belong and made all sorts of other muddles. Radiant heat is the kind from the sun or from an electric heater that sits in front or you plugged into the electric system - or from a gas heater or from a hot flashlight or camera bulb or the heat from microwaved food. That is " radiant " heat and is the only kind of " radiation " involved in microwaves. It makes no differnce whether there is gas, electricity AC, DC or chemical reaction heat involved. Heat is heat. And by the way the sun is not DC energy as clained, it is atomic reaction heat! We are lucky to have an ozone layer to keep dangerous atomic particles from teh sun out of the atmosphere (thouh some get through) or we'd all be dead from atomic radiation. THAT is atomic radiation heat - microwave heat is not :-)) It is completely immaterial whether the radiant heat is generated by DC or AC - both can cause electron friction and consequently heat what is near to them. Electrons have no mas so they can not be hot - they can only have energy transferred to what's near them - to heat the solid aspects an atom. They are heated - no more no less. they are not moved any more than the cells in your hands jump around when you rub them together. The ignoramus who wrote the page then tried to pretend microwaves use atomic radiation (bits of subatomic particles leaving thre nucleus of an atom like an xray) - which he tried to explain and which has no relevance or place in the discussion - but he has obviously not attended a single chemistry class - he has that all muddled too. He speaks of atoms losing an *electron* and calls that atomic radiation. Well no. Atomic radiation - radiation from atomic particles smaller than an atom in the nucleus of an atom (the part around which atoms spin like planets around a sun) - involves particles *other* than electrons - like gamma particles, x-ray particles and the like. There is none of that in microwave oven technology. And there is also no electron loss or gain between molecules or atoms as he is trying to suggest. Boy does he have his ideas in a scramble. Nor is there any " damage to atoms/food from friction " as he claims. He's right that electrons are involved and move faster - but they are not structures with an edge so they can not have friction damage - only higher cell level structures can be friction-damaged, and that's not what microwaves affect. The heating is from excitement of electrons (he got right that electrons are involved, he's just out of it on how). Electrons are made to move faster which means they cause heating - that do not actually rub together literally. In fact electrons are electricity - and not something you can touch - they can't rub together - it is a physical impossibility. Microwave heat is like the heat you get in an electric wire that is not thick enough for the job - the wire heats up due to electrons. THAT is more how microwave heat works, - to do with transfer of heat from electrons. We have another way to use heat from electrons in cold climates - it is intentionally heated wire made so the electrons will be inefficient and heat the coating on the wire - called heat tape. There's no way the food heated up is any different from food heated another way. Any supposed blood differences are bogus. You can't get blood difference from something (purported atomic radiation) that does not occur in a microwave setting. You gotta wonder what the " Christian Law Institute " knows about electricity, chemistry or physics. they made no attempt to let a junior chemistry student check what they wrote - it would be called ludicrous. Looks like they are hunting for an excuse to outlaw something they *obviously* do not understand. They also re-hash the old examples of cooked blood being bad for you as a transfusion (gee who would have guessed) and overheated baby's milk might burn the baby - gee really? - or worse still overcooked milk might actually not be so nutritious after that - again gee wow, such insight. Next came this little gem of baloney: " A basic hypothesis of natural medicine states that the introduction into the human body of molecules and energies, to which it is not accustomed, is much more likely to cause harm than good. " Nobody has such an hypothesis - author must have invented it to suit their purpose. As a homeopath - I have better things to do with my time than read and debunk any more of that nonsense. Homeopathy is natural medicine last time I looked and every remedy is obviously " unaccustomed energy " or it would have no effect. Yeach! Such nonsense - waste of time. Written by the ignorant for the gullible and unaware. Sorry - I know it was posted with good intentions. But it is a wonderful example of pure invented nonsense. Namaste, Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Ellen wrote: > After a very broad hint that I'm gullible and unaware, please drop the > personal attacks. There weren't any attacks, personal or otherwise. *Your* decision to take my words personally instead of as written, was a choice you did not have to make, and for which you alone are responsible. Next time someone comments a web page try to remember they are commenting a web page and not the person who posted the link. ............Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Right...(yeh) So when you described the *readers* as gullible and unaware, you were talking about the writers? You said you didn't have time for this...did you mean it? Re: Re: microwave? > > > Ellen wrote: >> After a very broad hint that I'm gullible and unaware, please drop the >> personal attacks. > > There weren't any attacks, personal or otherwise. > *Your* decision to take my words personally instead of as written, > was a choice you did not have to make, and for which you alone are > responsible. > > Next time someone comments a web page try to remember they are > commenting a web page and not the person who posted the link. > > ...........Irene > -- > Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. > P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. > http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html > Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Shirley Cuban wrote: <<<Irene, not having even an elementary understanding of science, I depend (right/wrong) on intuition which must be anathema to a scientist. >> It should not be anathema Shirley - I'm sure all research starts with intuition and I know I use intuition a lot in homeopathy. Just this week a case felt all wrong to me - A young male cat with a big bloated looking abdomen typical of FIP. The vet had diagnosed FIP - but intuition said no. Back to the vet - who still said FIP even after using a needle to extract fluid - clear fluid - (should be yellow for FIP). So - off to a 2nd vet who pointed out that " he " was pregnant and due to deliver../...!!!!!!! << It might even be somewhat psychizy for a scientist to try and incorporate the two--I'm asking your input on that issue out of curiosity. >> A good scientist uses both - maybe intuition first and science to confirm - but if you " look for " a specific answer like that, you can be biased towards getting it in the way the test is arranged - instead of impartial. << Anyways, in my limited way, I undertook the BT diet because it " sounded " sound. Re:m.o, If I read that above quote ,I probably would believe it since it " sounds " reasonable that a change in cooking methods might change the molecular make up of the food, etc.>> One of the basic chemistry principles is violated by that idea however. Molecules are much like lego blocks of different colours - the blocks themselves stay the same when you rearrange them. Microwave cooking is only a heat producing event. Whatever it does is because of being heated. Excessive heating happens very easily with microwave cooking - in effect melting the lego blocks. It can't change a red block into a blue one. What goes in must come out. What matters is that the cause of melting is not microwaves but excess heat. They'd melt in the oven too long as well. There isn't any activity done with microwave cooking that is not just a heat issue. The studies that found microwave food bad for people were looking to prove that food is bad when microwaved. They did not design the experiments appropriately and people were indeed poisoned. But not by microwaves. The HEAT from microwaving leached out carcinogens from plastic cookware and lead from stoneware etc used as pots. A properly designed study would have looked at those variables, and seen the source of the problem was not the heated food but the cookware used. << Sometimes, with all the science available, it takes years before science catches up with " intuition " . >> It's true on many fronts. But there are cases where there is not the mystique that is purported to exist, and where the technology and items involved are old hat scientifically speaking. Even the anti-microwave people usually explain that microwave heating is just that - heating. There is nothing else it can be. There is danger in misusing the heat - overcooking the food - using wrong cookware - and so on. But it is really just a matter of understanding. Microwave ovens have no secrets. It's a simple device. And it just makes food hot :-) << Those of us who take supplements for exp. and are encouraged by the " science " probably only hope and pray they're getting some benefit.>> There's a lot of benefit usually - but plants are very complex things - not like microwaves - and plants indeed could have some toxic component - or the opposite. << I rarely cook in a m.o. out of fear and probably will continue not to. However, my gratitude again to your wonderful posts.>> Thanks and - I respect the decision, as I will not use what I fear either. I would not touch an aspirin for example; to me that is way more dangerous than a microwave for my health :-)) Namaste, Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Ellen wrote: > Right...(yeh) So when you described the *readers* as gullible and unaware, > you were talking about the writers? Oh Ellen, I don't know why you twist and turn everything against yourself. I can't stand the type of twits that write webpages that take advantage of people who will believe what's written there (for whatever reason) despite what nonsense it really is. There's enough confusion in the world without them. Any irritated feelings I had were against those fools not list members. They *expect* people to be gullible. They do not check what they stick on the website, and they don't give a fig for consequences of the junk they write. It's not fair - not everyone has just the right background to know it is nonsense. A microwave is a simple device. It's not some complicated thing with dark hidden features that can do unexpected things. It generates heat in food, period. There's no mystery to how it does that. And there's no mystery to hot food. And websites full of hype don't change that. If you want to get " poisoned " by microwave food, you have to use a food container that leaches toxins when heated. It will leach the same toxins if you heat it someplace else. Namaste, Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Irene, Please post a link to a study finding any long term effects (20+ years) on people who use primarily microwaved food vs. traditionally cooked food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Re: Re: microwave? > I can't stand the type of twits that write webpages that take advantage > of people who will believe what's written there (for whatever reason) > despite what nonsense it really is. All I'm doing it presenting the other side, you are the one denigrating those who are looking at it with an open mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Irene: thanks for your " compassionate " response. I guess I would trust the asperin (haven't had any otc " anything " for many years) more than m.o. The years of study of asperin gives me a choice. If in some severe situation where asperin would help--I can't imagine not taking it. I have however over the years resisted all medications no matter what " science " condones. I have been told that I could go blind if I don't take drops for glaucoma (severe optic nerve damage-35%periferal vision loss); My bones would deteriorate quickly if I didn't take fosomax. Learned from internet that Fosomax could cause sever damage to eyes. At 67 I do have trouble following a distant-driven golf ball (a rare occasion); can still play tennis; have fallen off " new " bike twice, fell down steps with multiple bruises on my buttocks without breaking anything. (I try not to be supersticous--x'd fingers!!) I could fall in a way that would cause broken bone--hope not. Told I have Crest disease (I do have Raynauds being helped by eliminating dairy); and was told to take blood pressure medicine. I refuse at this point to see ANY doctor. Thanks again Irene. Re: Re: microwave? Shirley Cuban wrote: <<<Irene, not having even an elementary understanding of science, I depend (right/wrong) on intuition which must be anathema to a scientist. >> It should not be anathema Shirley - I'm sure all research starts with intuition and I know I use intuition a lot in homeopathy. Just this week a case felt all wrong to me - A young male cat with a big bloated looking abdomen typical of FIP. The vet had diagnosed FIP - but intuition said no. Back to the vet - who still said FIP even after using a needle to extract fluid - clear fluid - (should be yellow for FIP). So - off to a 2nd vet who pointed out that " he " was pregnant and due to deliver../...!!!!!!! << It might even be somewhat psychizy for a scientist to try and incorporate the two--I'm asking your input on that issue out of curiosity. >> A good scientist uses both - maybe intuition first and science to confirm - but if you " look for " a specific answer like that, you can be biased towards getting it in the way the test is arranged - instead of impartial. << Anyways, in my limited way, I undertook the BT diet because it " sounded " sound. Re:m.o, If I read that above quote ,I probably would believe it since it " sounds " reasonable that a change in cooking methods might change the molecular make up of the food, etc.>> One of the basic chemistry principles is violated by that idea however. Molecules are much like lego blocks of different colours - the blocks themselves stay the same when you rearrange them. Microwave cooking is only a heat producing event. Whatever it does is because of being heated. Excessive heating happens very easily with microwave cooking - in effect melting the lego blocks. It can't change a red block into a blue one. What goes in must come out. What matters is that the cause of melting is not microwaves but excess heat. They'd melt in the oven too long as well. There isn't any activity done with microwave cooking that is not just a heat issue. The studies that found microwave food bad for people were looking to prove that food is bad when microwaved. They did not design the experiments appropriately and people were indeed poisoned. But not by microwaves. The HEAT from microwaving leached out carcinogens from plastic cookware and lead from stoneware etc used as pots. A properly designed study would have looked at those variables, and seen the source of the problem was not the heated food but the cookware used. << Sometimes, with all the science available, it takes years before science catches up with " intuition " . >> It's true on many fronts. But there are cases where there is not the mystique that is purported to exist, and where the technology and items involved are old hat scientifically speaking. Even the anti-microwave people usually explain that microwave heating is just that - heating. There is nothing else it can be. There is danger in misusing the heat - overcooking the food - using wrong cookware - and so on. But it is really just a matter of understanding. Microwave ovens have no secrets. It's a simple device. And it just makes food hot :-) << Those of us who take supplements for exp. and are encouraged by the " science " probably only hope and pray they're getting some benefit.>> There's a lot of benefit usually - but plants are very complex things - not like microwaves - and plants indeed could have some toxic component - or the opposite. << I rarely cook in a m.o. out of fear and probably will continue not to. However, my gratitude again to your wonderful posts.>> Thanks and - I respect the decision, as I will not use what I fear either. I would not touch an aspirin for example; to me that is way more dangerous than a microwave for my health :-)) Namaste, Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 In a message dated 1/29/2005 9:57:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, mzellen03@... writes: Microwave cooking creates unique molecules, never before found in nature, called 'radiolytic byproducts' that are likely to cause health problems if continuously consumed, especially over decades of time. They are likely to be harmful to growing children. What study observed this unique molecule never before found in nature? Is this like Krytonite? Since microwave ovens haven't really been around all that long how can they " likely " (I like that astute scientific word. It's right up there with " may " and " kinda " .)) cause health problems over decades since there aren't that many decades since they've been invented. Haven't seen 100s of thousands of people dropping dead lately. By the way, radiolytic byproducts occur in any food that is processed like cooking, canning, etc so I guess this unique molecule has been around for a while. I offer this humble rebuttal from http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news & ID=33: Irradiating food does produce radiolytic products. But so do many other harmless processes that we take for granted. Dennis Olson, director of the Utilization Center for Agricultural Products at Iowa State University, told Nuclear News " You also get radiolytic products when you cook . . . when you dehydrate, or when you do canning, so most food preservation processes cause radiolytic byproducts. " It turns out that cooking produces many of the same effects in food that irradiating does -- like toasting bread. No one argues against cooking because of the " pyrolytic products " that result. But that didn't stop activists from Vermont's Food and Water group, who managed to publish no less than eight separate letters to the editor in newspapers across the country making this argument about irradiation. There's lots of junk science out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 In a message dated 1/29/2005 8:44:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, mzellen03@... writes: 1991; Blanc and Hertel, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology and the University Institute for Biochemistry, published in issue 19 of the Journal Franz Weber Here is a write up on the court case http://www.worldlii.org/int/cases/IIHRL/1998/95.html (still just presenting the other side, but getting ready to duck) I read this before also. The court found against this guy because they said he was trying to manipulate the market place instead of just reporting research findings. They applauded pure research but found that his was biased. Doesn't that destroy the credibility of the results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 In a message dated 1/29/2005 9:45:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, mzellen03@... writes: Do you *really* think the courts are standing up for the people? LOL--no but the lawyers stand up for money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 In a message dated 1/29/2005 9:45:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, mzellen03@... writes: That decision was overturned and Hertel was awarded damages. Then why didn't you show me the website that overturned the decision? It may say why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 In a message dated 1/29/2005 10:23:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, mzellen03@... writes: Exactly! Who had the money - Hertel, the scientist - or the appliance manufacturers? The award damages lawyers. Why do you think it got overturned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 In a message dated 1/29/2005 10:25:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, mzellen03@... writes: I did: read the bottom of the link (in italics) Sorry mine always gets cut off with " [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 1991; Blanc and Hertel, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology and the University Institute for Biochemistry, published in issue 19 of the Journal Franz Weber Here is a write up on the court case http://www.worldlii.org/int/cases/IIHRL/1998/95.html (still just presenting the other side, but getting ready to duck) From what I understand, there are different radiolytic molecules and the particular one that Hertel and Blanc discovered had not yet been seen. Re: Re: microwave? > In a message dated 1/29/2005 9:57:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, > mzellen03@... writes: > Microwave cooking creates unique molecules, never before found in nature, > called 'radiolytic byproducts' that are likely to cause health problems if > continuously consumed, especially over decades of time. They are likely to > be harmful to growing children. > > What study observed this unique molecule never before found in nature? Is > this like Krytonite? Since microwave ovens haven't really been around all > that > long how can they " likely " (I like that astute scientific word. It's > right up > there with " may " and " kinda " .)) cause health problems over decades since > there aren't that many decades since they've been invented. Haven't seen > 100s of > thousands of people dropping dead lately. By the way, radiolytic > byproducts > occur in any food that is processed like cooking, canning, etc so I guess > this > unique molecule has been around for a while. > > I offer this humble rebuttal from > http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news & ID=33: > > Irradiating food does produce radiolytic products. But so do many other > harmless processes that we take for granted. Dennis Olson, director of the > Utilization Center for Agricultural Products at Iowa State University, > told Nuclear > News " You also get radiolytic products when you cook . . . when you > dehydrate, > or when you do canning, so most food preservation processes cause > radiolytic > byproducts. " It turns out that cooking produces many of the same effects > in food > that irradiating does -- like toasting bread. No one argues against > cooking > because of the " pyrolytic products " that result. But that didn't stop > activists > from Vermont's Food and Water group, who managed to publish no less than > eight separate letters to the editor in newspapers across the country > making this > argument about irradiation. > > There's lots of junk science out there. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Re: Re: microwave? > I read this before also. The court found against this guy because they > said > he was trying to manipulate the market place instead of just reporting > research findings. They applauded pure research but found that his was > biased. > Doesn't that destroy the credibility of the results? That decision was overturned and Hertel was awarded damages. He had also been fired from a previous job for saying that which the company did not want to hear, so he had a reputation for speaking out whether or not it would be good for his career. Speaking of courts...in the United States, the Supreme Court declined to even hear a case regarding aspertame, and stevia can only be sold as a " supplement " . Do you *really* think the courts are standing up for the people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Ellen wrote: > > Irene, Please post a link to a study finding any long term effects (20+ > years) on people who use primarily microwaved food vs. traditionally cooked > food. Hi Ellen, You can do that via your local travel agent and have a lot of fun at the same time. Buy a trip to South Africa where the English/Afrikaans speaking population - at least 4 million of them - have all been doing their cooking by microwave for a lot longer than 20 years. Feel free to compare them to ANY other population group of 4 million - you will find them extremely healthy. (SA has closer to 44 million people - but microwaves have been the norm for Eng/Afr group at least long enough for your criteria.) The difference there is that people know what a microwave cooking bag is - and what microwave cookware is, and they use it. Not like USA where people will put food into any toxic container (toxic when heated) if they use a microwave. People there cook two ways - microwave and barbecue. And that's the NORM. Both ways of cooking are very healthy. You can see for yourself. It is better than a study - it's real world and a large sample size of 4 million and microwaves became the norm there in the early 80-s. They were used before that - but not widely enough to say it's was the normal way to cook all meals before that. Meets your 20 year criterion very well. If you prefer to look at recorded health stats for that group - you will also see the same thing - a particularly healthy group compared with any other you care to name. Namaste, Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Ellen wrote: > All I'm doing it presenting the other side, you are the one denigrating > those who are looking at it with an open mind. No Ellen. You did not present the other side. The twits that wrote the web page did that. And I did denigrate them. If you choose to reflect it on yourself instead for merely posting a web address - that's your choice, your doing, and nothing to do with me. I did not make that choice for you. ....Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Re: Re: microwave? > Ellen wrote: >> >> Irene, Please post a link to a study finding any long term effects (20+ >> years) on people who use primarily microwaved food vs. traditionally >> cooked >> food. > > Hi Ellen, > You can do that via your local travel agent and have a lot of fun at the > same time. So you *don't* have a study? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Re: Re: microwave? > In a message dated 1/29/2005 9:45:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mzellen03@... writes: > Do you *really* think the courts are standing up for the > people? > > LOL--no but the lawyers stand up for money. Exactly! Who had the money - Hertel, the scientist - or the appliance manufacturers? ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Shirley Cuban wrote: << Irene: thanks for your " compassionate " response. I guess I would trust the aspirin (haven't had any otc " anything " for many years) more than m.o.>> Hi, That's your choice - but the science would tell me aspirin is dangerous and m.o.s are safe.I never understand why multiple dangerous drugs are swallowed so readily - right into the body - by millions of people - but they are afraid of a method of heating food. << The years of study of asperin gives me a choice. If in some severe situation where asperin would help--I can't imagine not taking it. I have however over the years resisted all medications no matter what " science " condones. >> I like the send half decision better than the first :-) I don't do drugs myself. I stick with energy medicine and food supplements. << I have been told that I could go blind if I don't take drops for glaucoma (severe optic nerve damage-35%periferal vision loss); >> I also had glaucoma. Scary as you can lose your sight. I had Pressure in low to mid 30s. But I don't do drugs and so I used homeopathic remedies to get rid of it and got my pressure back in normal range in less than 2 months. Had similar success in clients when I was working on people - I'm specializing in animals now - but any good homeopath could help you similarly if you were interested. << My bones would deteriorate quickly if I didn't take fosomax. Learned from internet that Fosomax could cause sever damage to eyes.>> Again the Fosamax is toxic in my book. With cushiong's syndrome I am supposed to have bones so osteoporotic that I would break a rib if I coughed. But my endocrinologist is incredulous - my last check showed as she put it - " the bones of a 30 year old " and I am 56. I do two things - I use homeopathy for cushing's syndrome and I eat almost no salt. Salt leaches out calcium. I'm not criticizing your choices - we all make the best ones we know how with the information we have at the time. I am just suggesting that *if* one gets fanatic enough about avoiding toxins - the next step is to get open enough to safer alternatives to end up *actively* looking for them. They do exist. And one has to do something to take responsibility for the problem. << At 67 I do have trouble following a distant-driven golf ball (a rare occasion); can still play tennis; have fallen off " new " bike twice, fell down steps with multiple bruises on my buttocks without breaking anything.>> All sounds very ouch!!! Hope that soon quits - but do you keep arnica cream handy? Put it where you expect a bruise and you won't get one. Or put it on a bruise and it will evaporate. << (I try not to be supersticous--x'd fingers!!) I could fall in a way that would cause broken bone--hope not. Told I have Crest disease (I do have Raynauds being helped by eliminating dairy); and was told to take blood pressure medicine. I refuse at this point to see ANY doctor. >> I admire your resolve and hope you make great progress. I used to have high blood pressure too - was over 200 systolic from 1998 through 2001, and I was having heart attacks. It's now 118/80 last I checked, last month I think, and no heart attack/stroke risk any more. I got it right in 2002. I used hawthorne berry herb and homeopathy. I don't take anything for it any more though - I'm happy where it is. By the way - I found that yoga - beginning yoga class of mainly stretches, twists and relaxation poses - took my systolic down 23 points in an hour. I measured it before and after a good yoga workout on several occasions. > Thanks again Irene. I wish you good health. Namaste, Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc; AASCA; MCSSA; D.I.Hom. P.O.Box 4703, Spokane, WA 99220-0703. http://www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html Veterinary Homeopath and Feline Information Counsellor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 I did: read the bottom of the link (in italics) Here's the link to the post /message/28263 Re: Re: microwave? > In a message dated 1/29/2005 9:45:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mzellen03@... writes: > That decision was overturned and Hertel was awarded damages. > > Then why didn't you show me the website that overturned the decision? It > may > say why. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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