Re: Questions on flush, Chanca piedra

[Guest guest]

Wow! , well spoken, for sure, and I can certainly appreciate your

concern, and frustration. I've too have been frustrated with the medical

profession since my first realization the painful attacks that sent me to

the emergency room were because of my gallbladder. I was requested to make

an appointment for surgery within two weeks of my second visit to the

emergency room in three days in February of 1999. I didn't like that idea

and somewhat ignored my doctor's request. I started my research on an

alternative method of getting out the " Stone " that I was told I had from the

MRI. I had gotten hold of Chang and others for information about the

gallbladder and things I might try doing to see if I could avoid surgery.

Well, as things would have it I was successful in my personal endeavor. The

picture of my stones is just an example of the number of the ones I'd gotten

out doing a flush using the Epsom Salts and Cold Pressed Extra Virgin Olive

Oil with fresh squeezed Grapefruit juice combinations. However, I didn't

just do the Olive Oil and Grapefruit. I also did colonics with ozone

insufflations to help the liver's healing process by providing more oxygen

to it in a greater concentration. I also made my own colloidal silver for

fighting any possible parasites that may be an approximate cause of my

stones formation, or a blockage to my liver's bile ducts.

I'm a strong believer in the process. My doctor, who was really a great and

supportive guy, actually stated to me and my wife at the last follow-up

visit to his office in October of 1999 after my last, and most sever

liver/gallbladder attack, that " you can't argue with success " . I was very

fortunate to have him as my doctor because he understood my desire to keep

my gallbladder, and even though I had to get pain medication, for dealing

with the attacks I'd get after eating the wrong kinds of food, he would just

let me know I always had the alterative of surgery available. He, as a GP,

along with the ER doctors and nurses were surprised to find that my

gallbladder was no longer thickened and was empty of stones with the last

emergency visit. So was I!

I came to find out that in my attempt to avoid all fats to save my

gallbladder I was causing damage to my liver. I was avoiding all fats

including the EFAs that our bodies need for cellular strength and the liver

needs for its function. I found this out after ordering and reading Dr.

Cabot's book " The Liver Cleansing Diet " . Since applying the principles of

her information I've been without a gallbladder attack. It is now more than

a year.

There are those for whom Dr. Cabot's information may not work, but for

learning about the liver and its function, I can't think of a better book to

which to point.

Dale

Da_@...

----- Original Message -----

From: " Mc " <puehr@...>

<gallstonesegroups>

Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:44 PM

Subject: Questions on flush, Chanca piedra

> I've been reading this discussion group for a few weeks. I'd like to

> start by thanking all of you for your enthusiasm and advice. The tone of

> what follows may seem overly hardheaded, but this is because I'm

> frustrated at the difficulty of tracking down well-documented assertions,

> and at the inability of mainstream medicine and the alternative health

> advocates to talk to each other productively. Western medicine tends to

> be highly dogmatic, but has what seems to me a good basic premise, which

> is that the world makes sense, and therefore can be explained. I'm not a

> strict rationalist, but I'm very reluctant to subject my body to any

> procedure I don't understand, whether the procedure is offered by an MD or

> by an alternative health expert.

>

> I have a few questions about natural elimination of gallstones, which

> perhaps you can help me with.

>

> -the version of the flush which many of you advocate involves Epsom salt,

> or another magnesium compound. Reportedly the magnesium opens up the

> ducts. Is there anyone who can cite any scientific support for this

> assertion? I notice there's another version of the flush which uses just

> olive oil and lemon juice (see

> http://health.microworld.com/html/gall_stone_cleanse.htm). So it appears

> the flush can work, and work comfortably, without magnesium. Some cursory

> searches of the medical literature don't show any association between duct

> dilation and magnesium....

>

> -many accounts of the flush imply that the olive oil itself trickles into

> the gallbladder, or at least into the ducts, thereby lubricating the

> stones and helping them exit the biliary system. Looking at anatomical

> diagrams of the gallbladder, ducts, and their relation to the stomach and

> the duodenum, I'm having trouble seeing how the olive oil could make its

> way into the ducts or the gallbladder. I'm assuming that the common duct

> isn't generally hanging open, but has a sphincter to prevent intestinal

> contents travelling up the duct. Assuming this, I don't see how the olive

> oil can get in. I suppose there could be metabolites or components of the

> olive oil which affect the biliary system less directly, via the

> bloodstream. I'm not dismissing the possible efficacy of the olive

> oil--I'm just puzzled.

>

> -some of you have mentioned that you have taken Chanca Piedra (Phyllanthus

> niruri, or P. amarus). Can any of you report on your results? Most of

> the web pages offering information on this herb seem to be highly

> derivative of one another, and searches of medical papers on Medline

> reveal substantial research on Phyllanthus, but very little addressing its

> effect on gallstones. So I'm looking for some anecdotes or testimonials.

>

> In general, I'm looking for more insight into the actual mechanics of the

> flush. It may sound as if I'm being highly sceptical, but I'm not--I just

> want to understand what I'm doing before I do it. I certainly have more

> confidence in alternative approaches to gallstones than I have in the

> approach offered by doctors, which favors the knife. My own belief is

> that there is very likely a non-surgical approach to this problem, and

> it's just a matter of determining what it is.

>

> One thought which I've had over and over again as I've done research over

> the last several weeks, is that it's a shame that medical researchers

> aren't--apparently--researching the alternative approaches to gallbladder

> disease. It would be pretty simple to design a clinical study to document

> whether the gallbladder flush is genuinely removing gallstones, or to

> document which flush method is most effective. Likewise, a study of

> Chanca Piedra would be easy to do. Surely some obscure medical school

> would like to make a name for itself by either debunking or corroborating

> the assertions of the alternative health movement.

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Dale,

This is great stuff! I'm getting my questions answered one by one.

Speaking of cutting out all fats, I realized today how much fat I

actually had:

1 5 oz flaxseed meal muffin (3 tbsp flaxseed - which contains oil)

1 soy protein power bar (9 grams of fat due to almond butter)

4 oz. poached salmon (which contains Omega 3? fatty acids).

Pretty interesting how much fat one gets in an " innocent-looking "

healthy diet.

Dale wrote:

>

> Wow! , well spoken, for sure, and I can certainly appreciate your

> concern, and frustration. I've too have been frustrated with the medical

> profession since my first realization the painful attacks that sent me to

> the emergency room were because of my gallbladder. I was requested to make

> an appointment for surgery within two weeks of my second visit to the

> emergency room in three days in February of 1999. I didn't like that idea

> and somewhat ignored my doctor's request. I started my research on an

> alternative method of getting out the " Stone " that I was told I had from the

> MRI. I had gotten hold of Chang and others for information about the

> gallbladder and things I might try doing to see if I could avoid surgery.

>

> Well, as things would have it I was successful in my personal endeavor. The

> picture of my stones is just an example of the number of the ones I'd gotten

> out doing a flush using the Epsom Salts and Cold Pressed Extra Virgin Olive

> Oil with fresh squeezed Grapefruit juice combinations. However, I didn't

> just do the Olive Oil and Grapefruit. I also did colonics with ozone

> insufflations to help the liver's healing process by providing more oxygen

> to it in a greater concentration. I also made my own colloidal silver for

> fighting any possible parasites that may be an approximate cause of my

> stones formation, or a blockage to my liver's bile ducts.

>

> I'm a strong believer in the process. My doctor, who was really a great and

> supportive guy, actually stated to me and my wife at the last follow-up

> visit to his office in October of 1999 after my last, and most sever

> liver/gallbladder attack, that " you can't argue with success " . I was very

> fortunate to have him as my doctor because he understood my desire to keep

> my gallbladder, and even though I had to get pain medication, for dealing

> with the attacks I'd get after eating the wrong kinds of food, he would just

> let me know I always had the alterative of surgery available. He, as a GP,

> along with the ER doctors and nurses were surprised to find that my

> gallbladder was no longer thickened and was empty of stones with the last

> emergency visit. So was I!

>

> I came to find out that in my attempt to avoid all fats to save my

> gallbladder I was causing damage to my liver. I was avoiding all fats

> including the EFAs that our bodies need for cellular strength and the liver

> needs for its function. I found this out after ordering and reading Dr.

> Cabot's book " The Liver Cleansing Diet " . Since applying the principles of

> her information I've been without a gallbladder attack. It is now more than

> a year.

>

> There are those for whom Dr. Cabot's information may not work, but for

> learning about the liver and its function, I can't think of a better book to

> which to point.

>

> Dale

> Da_@...

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Mc " <puehr@...>

> <gallstonesegroups>

> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:44 PM

> Subject: Questions on flush, Chanca piedra

>

> > I've been reading this discussion group for a few weeks. I'd like to

> > start by thanking all of you for your enthusiasm and advice. The tone of

> > what follows may seem overly hardheaded, but this is because I'm

> > frustrated at the difficulty of tracking down well-documented assertions,

> > and at the inability of mainstream medicine and the alternative health

> > advocates to talk to each other productively. Western medicine tends to

> > be highly dogmatic, but has what seems to me a good basic premise, which

> > is that the world makes sense, and therefore can be explained. I'm not a

> > strict rationalist, but I'm very reluctant to subject my body to any

> > procedure I don't understand, whether the procedure is offered by an MD or

> > by an alternative health expert.

> >

> > I have a few questions about natural elimination of gallstones, which

> > perhaps you can help me with.

> >

> > -the version of the flush which many of you advocate involves Epsom salt,

> > or another magnesium compound. Reportedly the magnesium opens up the

> > ducts. Is there anyone who can cite any scientific support for this

> > assertion? I notice there's another version of the flush which uses just

> > olive oil and lemon juice (see

> > http://health.microworld.com/html/gall_stone_cleanse.htm). So it appears

> > the flush can work, and work comfortably, without magnesium. Some cursory

> > searches of the medical literature don't show any association between duct

> > dilation and magnesium....

> >

> > -many accounts of the flush imply that the olive oil itself trickles into

> > the gallbladder, or at least into the ducts, thereby lubricating the

> > stones and helping them exit the biliary system. Looking at anatomical

> > diagrams of the gallbladder, ducts, and their relation to the stomach and

> > the duodenum, I'm having trouble seeing how the olive oil could make its

> > way into the ducts or the gallbladder. I'm assuming that the common duct

> > isn't generally hanging open, but has a sphincter to prevent intestinal

> > contents travelling up the duct. Assuming this, I don't see how the olive

> > oil can get in. I suppose there could be metabolites or components of the

> > olive oil which affect the biliary system less directly, via the

> > bloodstream. I'm not dismissing the possible efficacy of the olive

> > oil--I'm just puzzled.

> >

> > -some of you have mentioned that you have taken Chanca Piedra (Phyllanthus

> > niruri, or P. amarus). Can any of you report on your results? Most of

> > the web pages offering information on this herb seem to be highly

> > derivative of one another, and searches of medical papers on Medline

> > reveal substantial research on Phyllanthus, but very little addressing its

> > effect on gallstones. So I'm looking for some anecdotes or testimonials.

> >

> > In general, I'm looking for more insight into the actual mechanics of the

> > flush. It may sound as if I'm being highly sceptical, but I'm not--I just

> > want to understand what I'm doing before I do it. I certainly have more

> > confidence in alternative approaches to gallstones than I have in the

> > approach offered by doctors, which favors the knife. My own belief is

> > that there is very likely a non-surgical approach to this problem, and

> > it's just a matter of determining what it is.

> >

> > One thought which I've had over and over again as I've done research over

> > the last several weeks, is that it's a shame that medical researchers

> > aren't--apparently--researching the alternative approaches to gallbladder

> > disease. It would be pretty simple to design a clinical study to document

> > whether the gallbladder flush is genuinely removing gallstones, or to

> > document which flush method is most effective. Likewise, a study of

> > Chanca Piedra would be easy to do. Surely some obscure medical school

> > would like to make a name for itself by either debunking or corroborating

> > the assertions of the alternative health movement.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Yeah! But, these are the ones your liver loves to get. So as the milk

commercial says " It does a body good " . (Not an endorsement for the fats in

milk)

Dale

Da_@...

----- Original Message -----

From: " Bramer " <kjbramer@...>

<gallstonesegroups>

Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 7:43 PM

Subject: Re: Questions on flush, Chanca piedra

> Dale,

>

> This is great stuff! I'm getting my questions answered one by one.

>

> Speaking of cutting out all fats, I realized today how much fat I

> actually had:

>

> 1 5 oz flaxseed meal muffin (3 tbsp flaxseed - which contains oil)

> 1 soy protein power bar (9 grams of fat due to almond butter)

> 4 oz. poached salmon (which contains Omega 3? fatty acids).

>

> Pretty interesting how much fat one gets in an " innocent-looking "

> healthy diet.

>

>

>

>

>

> Dale wrote:

> >

> > Wow! , well spoken, for sure, and I can certainly appreciate your

> > concern, and frustration. I've too have been frustrated with the medical

> > profession since my first realization the painful attacks that sent me

to

> > the emergency room were because of my gallbladder. I was requested to

make

> > an appointment for surgery within two weeks of my second visit to the

> > emergency room in three days in February of 1999. I didn't like that

idea

> > and somewhat ignored my doctor's request. I started my research on an

> > alternative method of getting out the " Stone " that I was told I had from

the

> > MRI. I had gotten hold of Chang and others for information about

the

> > gallbladder and things I might try doing to see if I could avoid

surgery.

> >

> > Well, as things would have it I was successful in my personal endeavor.

The

> > picture of my stones is just an example of the number of the ones I'd

gotten

> > out doing a flush using the Epsom Salts and Cold Pressed Extra Virgin

Olive

> > Oil with fresh squeezed Grapefruit juice combinations. However, I didn't

> > just do the Olive Oil and Grapefruit. I also did colonics with ozone

> > insufflations to help the liver's healing process by providing more

oxygen

> > to it in a greater concentration. I also made my own colloidal silver

for

> > fighting any possible parasites that may be an approximate cause of my

> > stones formation, or a blockage to my liver's bile ducts.

> >

> > I'm a strong believer in the process. My doctor, who was really a great

and

> > supportive guy, actually stated to me and my wife at the last follow-up

> > visit to his office in October of 1999 after my last, and most sever

> > liver/gallbladder attack, that " you can't argue with success " . I was

very

> > fortunate to have him as my doctor because he understood my desire to

keep

> > my gallbladder, and even though I had to get pain medication, for

dealing

> > with the attacks I'd get after eating the wrong kinds of food, he would

just

> > let me know I always had the alterative of surgery available. He, as a

GP,

> > along with the ER doctors and nurses were surprised to find that my

> > gallbladder was no longer thickened and was empty of stones with the

last

> > emergency visit. So was I!

> >

> > I came to find out that in my attempt to avoid all fats to save my

> > gallbladder I was causing damage to my liver. I was avoiding all fats

> > including the EFAs that our bodies need for cellular strength and the

liver

> > needs for its function. I found this out after ordering and reading Dr.

> > Cabot's book " The Liver Cleansing Diet " . Since applying the principles

of

> > her information I've been without a gallbladder attack. It is now more

than

> > a year.

> >

> > There are those for whom Dr. Cabot's information may not work, but for

> > learning about the liver and its function, I can't think of a better

book to

> > which to point.

> >

> > Dale

> > Da_@...

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: " Mc " <puehr@...>

> > <gallstonesegroups>

> > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:44 PM

> > Subject: Questions on flush, Chanca piedra

> >

> > > I've been reading this discussion group for a few weeks. I'd like to

> > > start by thanking all of you for your enthusiasm and advice. The tone

of

> > > what follows may seem overly hardheaded, but this is because I'm

> > > frustrated at the difficulty of tracking down well-documented

assertions,

> > > and at the inability of mainstream medicine and the alternative health

> > > advocates to talk to each other productively. Western medicine tends

to

> > > be highly dogmatic, but has what seems to me a good basic premise,

which

> > > is that the world makes sense, and therefore can be explained. I'm

not a

> > > strict rationalist, but I'm very reluctant to subject my body to any

> > > procedure I don't understand, whether the procedure is offered by an

MD or

> > > by an alternative health expert.

> > >

> > > I have a few questions about natural elimination of gallstones, which

> > > perhaps you can help me with.

> > >

> > > -the version of the flush which many of you advocate involves Epsom

salt,

> > > or another magnesium compound. Reportedly the magnesium opens up the

> > > ducts. Is there anyone who can cite any scientific support for this

> > > assertion? I notice there's another version of the flush which uses

just

> > > olive oil and lemon juice (see

> > > http://health.microworld.com/html/gall_stone_cleanse.htm). So it

appears

> > > the flush can work, and work comfortably, without magnesium. Some

cursory

> > > searches of the medical literature don't show any association between

duct

> > > dilation and magnesium....

> > >

> > > -many accounts of the flush imply that the olive oil itself trickles

into

> > > the gallbladder, or at least into the ducts, thereby lubricating the

> > > stones and helping them exit the biliary system. Looking at

anatomical

> > > diagrams of the gallbladder, ducts, and their relation to the stomach

and

> > > the duodenum, I'm having trouble seeing how the olive oil could make

its

> > > way into the ducts or the gallbladder. I'm assuming that the common

duct

> > > isn't generally hanging open, but has a sphincter to prevent

intestinal

> > > contents travelling up the duct. Assuming this, I don't see how the

olive

> > > oil can get in. I suppose there could be metabolites or components of

the

> > > olive oil which affect the biliary system less directly, via the

> > > bloodstream. I'm not dismissing the possible efficacy of the olive

> > > oil--I'm just puzzled.

> > >

> > > -some of you have mentioned that you have taken Chanca Piedra

(Phyllanthus

> > > niruri, or P. amarus). Can any of you report on your results? Most

of

> > > the web pages offering information on this herb seem to be highly

> > > derivative of one another, and searches of medical papers on Medline

> > > reveal substantial research on Phyllanthus, but very little addressing

its

> > > effect on gallstones. So I'm looking for some anecdotes or

testimonials.

> > >

> > > In general, I'm looking for more insight into the actual mechanics of

the

> > > flush. It may sound as if I'm being highly sceptical, but I'm not--I

just

> > > want to understand what I'm doing before I do it. I certainly have

more

> > > confidence in alternative approaches to gallstones than I have in the

> > > approach offered by doctors, which favors the knife. My own belief is

> > > that there is very likely a non-surgical approach to this problem, and

> > > it's just a matter of determining what it is.

> > >

> > > One thought which I've had over and over again as I've done research

over

> > > the last several weeks, is that it's a shame that medical researchers

> > > aren't--apparently--researching the alternative approaches to

gallbladder

> > > disease. It would be pretty simple to design a clinical study to

document

> > > whether the gallbladder flush is genuinely removing gallstones, or to

> > > document which flush method is most effective. Likewise, a study of

> > > Chanca Piedra would be easy to do. Surely some obscure medical school

> > > would like to make a name for itself by either debunking or

corroborating

> > > the assertions of the alternative health movement.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >