Re: Re: Ionic vs. Colloidal

[Guest guest]

Hello Mr. (Not same ie...Engineering Officer, on Star-Trek..?) <G>

Your "Ionic vs. Colloidal" question was well written and is deserving of a more

complete (scientifically based) answer, than "About 90-95% Ionic"...for reply~

Since there was only one reply-post and it was from member (potentially) into

financial gain from marketing his own SOTA products...hopefully, your WISE!

From an Old Quote...'Statistics DON'T LIE, but Statisticians & Salemen DO'?

All fairness to SOTA, your original question and Russ's "about 90-95% Ionic"

answer...did not make it clear as to being Beck's Original, or SOTA product?

To best of my knowledge the SOTA unit may now be using C.C./(mA-limiter),

which was not-included in Beck's (original) ckts. to emit (smallest) Ag+ Ions,

that are-critical to ending up with higher PPM EIS/(CS) IONIC ratio, Products.

None the less IMO (as retired Engineer), I would expect to see "VALID" data

to back-up and support the posted SOTA answer, of "About 90-95% Ionic"...!

The SOTA web-site provides NOTHING at all, in engineering-terms to support

what their products CAN/CANNOT deliver...for MONEY SPENT, so Beware!!!

Correct answer should take into consideration, Size & Geometry of Electrode

and (controled) Current-Density used, over some period-of-Time, for Maxwells

equation to be used to estimate Silver Gain, or ckt. to watch Trodes-Voltage.

SOTA product appears to use no-measurement/EOC function to know, ppm?

At BEST..."90-95% Ionic"...was incomplete-answer, leaving out, finer details

like for (first) 15 seconds...most LVDC generators, Do make-over 98% IONS,

but are not-engineered to deal with what-happens LATER...as particles-form!

With only 10 sec. into EIS brew-cycle may see 99% Ionic for < (.001) PPM?

(Slick Attorny saying, but your HONER...my client never Stated...Any-TIME)

Being "90-95% Ionic" implys that 5-10% IS-NOT Ionic, but what (specifically)

'IS-IT'...and WHAT-IS...Total (Parts-Per-Million) of Silver metal vs. Ag+ Ionic?

Modern CS/EIS can now be engineered...as IONIC, or Particle's...Over 95%.

LABs, use a High Speed Centrafuge and Atomic-Absorption-Spectrometer... Serious PPM & ION vs. Total-Silver content DATA, requires a LAB Analysis!

To best of my (engineering) knowledge, nether BECK, or SOTA delivering at

90%, but BECK (video's), brewing-only for about 3~5 min....it may still-be at

over 90% Ionic, BUT for Total (Maxwell's Equation), Silver content is...LOW!

, send me <private> email...if you want access to better Ag resources?

Many years Brewing high-quality CS/EIS @18~24+ ppm...minimal DIY Cost.

A~Skeptic,

Dok Dallas

=======================================================

From: <russ@...>Subject: Re: Ionic vs. Colloidal

Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 5:36 AM

About 90-95% ionic. >> Does anybody know how much ionic silver, the beck device produces? If you> made> 1 cup of colloidal silver, how much ionic silver is actually in there?

***** SOME ORIGINAL MSG. CONTENT WAS SNIPPED *****> > I read somewhere how they say colloidal contains about 75% ionic?> > Please show me some research paper links if you have any for beck's device.> Thanks.>

[Guest guest]

This is good information. I have mentioned before, I believe, that what we saw Beck making in his videos is not really a colloid. One, we don't know particle size, which is much more important the PPM I would think. Beck says he had it tested and measured. And two, that cloudy stuff settles. A proper colloid will stay in suspension, such as that well know colloid, milk. (Ok, milk does settle after a time) Beck's demonstration with a small laser shows that there are particles in suspension (Tyndall scattering). Colloidal particles are defined by size (5 to 200 nanometers I believe) and the interaction of these particles.

So, when I stick two .9999 silver wires into a beaker of water and pass d/c through them from the Beck device, depending on the water, I'll get a white or yellowish solution. Just like Beck did. That is all I know. I can guess that there are silver ions, and silver particles. It would take an electron microscope to determine particle size distributions per batch. I could get a PPM meter, but not sure why. I time the batch, so given the same kind of water, it should be close enough. I believe that from Sota has done these tests so can inform his customers that given a certain amount of time and water, the particle size is approximated. The big variable then is the water used. Only 18 megohm resistance water, considered non conductive, is perfectly clean. There is a definite difference between my tap water, running that through a .5 micron filter, and using store bought distilled. Tap water is very conductive, distilled not so

much.

So does the simple "C/S" maker that is part of the Beck schematic work? It seems to. Overall health seems improved and I haven't turned blue. The only thing I've noticed is the need to drink some kiefer once in a while to help with intestinal flora.

What all the Ionic or C/S maker companies should show is electron microscope photos of their product showing size distributions.

RandyFrom: <russ@sotainstrument s.com>Subject: [beck-blood- electrification] Re: Ionic vs. Colloidal

Beck-blood-electrif ication@gro ups.comDate: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 5:36 AM

About 90-95% ionic. >> Does anybody know how much ionic silver, the beck device produces? If you> made> 1 cup of colloidal silver, how much ionic silver is actually in there?

***** SOME ORIGINAL MSG. CONTENT WAS SNIPPED *****> > I read somewhere how they say colloidal contains about 75% ionic?> > Please show me some research paper links if you have any for beck's device.> Thanks.>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Russ for the details.   Any possibility of testing Beck's silver with Argentyn23?  In theretest, I think they mentioned MesoSilver only had about 30% ionic.  This is why I inquired about this.  IsMesoSilver using a different or highly inefficient process to produce the ionic silver then Sota's? 

To me the level of ionic solution is very important for high levels of success in treatments.  On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 8:10 AM, thisblaksheep <nevillemunn@...> wrote:

 

I'm an old-ish member here but rarely participate so don't think I'm just barging in. Somehow I stuffed up and had to rejoin a while ago using a different name, can't remember my original name now.

There are some things being raised here that has prompted me to join in, if there's no objections.

Snipped quotes:

[...Beck making in his videos is not really a colloid]

-Correct me if I'm wrong but he made a batch and was ingesting it pretty much as soon as it was made in the videos I've seen in the past. Would that not mean it was more an ionic solution rather than a colloidal solution? There has not been enough time lapse for particle clusters to form. Ions must surely be considered as particles or colloids, if they weren't then the silver would lose it's identity as silver if you get my drift.

[...we don't know particle size, which is much more important the PPM...]

-Why would you consider this to be so? PPM is the total amount of silver expressed as mg/litre of water, in which case if one is producing appropriate quality solutions then one has an idea of total silver content suspended in that solution I would think {providing gravity doesn't pull any silver out of solution over days/weeks or months in storage}.

[...that cloudy stuff settles.]

-If EIS is made appropriately there should be no cloudiness.

[Colloidal particles are defined by size (5 to 200 nanometers I believe)]

-Literature I've read over some years state that to be classified as a colloid the particles should not exceed 1 micron. Knowing that particles under that size supposedly will travel everywhere in the human body {blood brain barrier I'm not sure as I've forgotten} and combining that information with the fact that we know that our particles are well under that 1 micron definition, then I'm encouraged to ask why is it so important for those particles to be 'x' in size. To my knowledge any solution will have a multitude of varying particle sizes present? Ignoring for the moment the particle surface area thing as I believe there are plenty of particles present which would fit that size criteria. I think this particle size business is somewhat misleading. Are ALL particles in any given solution supposed to be of a particular size, I think not...Yes/No?

[i could get a PPM meter, but not sure why.]

-Because a ppm meter should give an indication as to the total mg/l of silver content in any given solution...Yes/No?

[...given a certain amount of time and water, the particle size is approximated.]

-Is that possible? One would need to wait until the solution has stabilised over time before submitting that information, which possibly explains why that information is not written on the bottle, as ion/particle ratios aren't, {if I'm right that is}, and then added to that, photographing on a slide is not the same as circulating in the blood stream...Yes/No? Does anyone know what effect acids, peroxides etc have on silver ions and/or particles while circulating in the blood stream?

[Tap water is very conductive, distilled not so much.]

-Tap water will produce salts due to impurities in the water will it not? This is undesirable, which is why distilled or the purest water is preferable.

[...help with intestinal flora.]

-I've administered up to 16 ounces, or 600 odd ml a day for several days and I have never had the need to do anything about the intestinal flora. It could be argued that my solutions are ineffective, but my laboratory analysis results indicate otherwise.

[...should show is electron microscope photos of their product showing size distributions.]

-I'm not convinced this would be at all helpful for the reason I stated above. It may make a pretty picture, but how would it look if it were possible to do it while the silver solution was in circulation within the body...which is what I would *really* prefer to know?

[so does the simple " C/S " maker that is part of the Beck schematic work?]

-I'm not specifically referring to Becks schematics here but I think all your points would concern any machine.

Neville.

> >

> > Does anybody know how much ionic silver, the beck device produces?   If you

> > made

> > 1 cup of colloidal silver, how much ionic silver is actually in there?

>    

>               *****  SOME ORIGINAL MSG. CONTENT WAS SNIPPED *****

> >

> > I read somewhere how they say colloidal contains about 75% ionic?

> >

> > Please show me some research paper links if you have any for beck's device.

> > Thanks.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I do use the Beck electrifier device and it is from Sota.   I do not doubt that the device produces ionic silver.  I just want to know how much and in relation to the medically prescribed argentyn23.  Colloidal is still a particle.   Particles only are so effective and in my view limited even if they are very small.  A particle still does not have the ability

to bond effectively as ionic.  Ionic, with the charge can do so because it is looking for its opposite charge.    There have been tests done on using Silver creams which are ineffective or silver bandaid.  I'm not sure what

they are using whether colloidal, but they are definitely silver in particle form.  The bacteriajust grows around the silver mesh.   However, I believe ionic has the ability to directlyaffect and interact with bacteria and viruses, binding to specific bonding sites or blocking the

sites to prevent replication, and or killing them instantly.   If we take this view inside the body,colloidal silver will slow down the viruses or bacteria, but it will not get rid of it.  The bacteriaor viruses will just go around it.  Its like saying your whole body needs to be silver for you

to completely wipe out the bugs, because they have no where else to hide.   So to prevent the bugs from hiding, something needs to directly interact with them-this I believe ionic can do.  I do believe colloidal silver works.  I make my own using just a DC charger, but I also have Sota's.

I still think the Beck device is good, but we now need to better understand the difference betweenionic and colloidal in the laboratory and more tests need to be done.   Basically taking ita step further and refining the processes.   If ionic silver is 75% more effective than

colloidal, how can we achieve 99.9% ionic silver.  On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:50 PM, jogi54 <jogi54@...> wrote:

 

ok - I m from Germany, we have some supplier of Beck protocol equipment

On the one hand ,I am investigating very deep into details, what anybody found about CS, currants, magnetism...

On the other hand, I follow the advice of Beck, make your own experience

Since I use CS, made by a box according Beck, I stopped all infections by CS within drinking one time 30ml of CS made by this German equipment.

Hello, it works perfect. Do I have now, why ??? Especially, is it colloid or ionic ? In any case it is colloid (which means, particles, which are very small and suspended in water) if these particles have a load or not, I think for the medical value, there is no difference. So this discussion is totally without any sense.

Anyhow, swiss ETH is studying CS surfaces for hospital use. The quality of silver for to be a antibiotic agent is independent of the electrical load.

So what ?????

It is always the same in our times...

OK, I ask you, do you follow Beck, who told you, try it and you will get very surprising results

or you fear everything

I can help you, I tested all parts of the Beck protocol, but not the whole complete.

Ask me direct and I think I can give you real answers ..

cares jogi

>

> Does anybody know how much ionic silver, the beck device produces? If you

> made

> 1 cup of colloidal silver, how much ionic silver is actually in there?

> Natural-Immunogenics

> did a research showing ionic vs. colloidal, and the results were

> astonishing. The

> colloidal works, but the ionic form was way superior if the research was

> true. I've been

> taking colloidal silver for 1.5 yrs and have not gotten a cold.

>

> I read somewhere how they say colloidal contains about 75% ionic?

>

> http://www.hydrosolinfo.com/articles/silver-2004-12-22.php

>

> Please show me some research paper links if you have any for beck's device.

> Thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

Russ, does the ionic colloidal silver produce more micro-clusters as it sits in storage for longer periods of time?From: <russ@...> Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 9:33:18 AMSubject: Re: Ionic vs. Colloidal

Hello "A~Skeptic,Dok Dallas",

Forgive my quick answer. I did that because most folks on this chat group simply wish a short answer rather than a long-drawn out one, and...I am a slow typist!

You write "'Statistics DON'T LIE, but Statisticians & Salemen DO'?".

Those are harsh words. I am sorry to see you quickly jump to these types of conclusions. You could have simply asked me for a more detailed explanation.

Anyway, I will try to give a background to Bob Beck's ionic~colloidal silver generating method. When Bob first heard of classical colloidal silver, he was aware of the high prices of the store-bought colloidal silver in a bottle. Having much of his genius based on simplification, he pioneered a new way to make colloidal silver that allowed anyone to "do it themselves" at a cost of pennies a gallon.

However, not much was known about the product being generated as the method was just being introduced into the public domain and little or no scientific research had been conducted.

When you see videos of Bob making colloidal silver, you see him using tap water and inserting 2 x pure silver wires into a glass container then powering those electrodes with 3 x 9 Volt batteries.

You then see a milky-white cloud forming on the anode (positive electrode). Bob stirs the solution to disperse the cloud, and then shines a laser through it to demonstrate the Tyndall effect – an effect to help indicate that there are particles in suspension, and these particles form a colloid.

Much has been learned from those humble beginnings. I met Bob in 1995, and in 1996 started SOTA. Our first colloidal silver generator used this very same method – although we used a unique DC-DC step-up converter to provide a constant-voltage source of 27 Volts from a single 9 Volt battery. Bob really liked this design and we became one of his fully-endorsed manufacturers.

We wanted to know more about what we were generating, the particle sizes of the silver, the consistency, etc. By great fortune, I happened to be a short drive away from the University of British Columbia (UBC), which happened to have a Transmission Electron Scanning Microscope (TESM). The TESM was a relatively new technology that allowed unsurpassed levels of magnification. I was able to make an appointment with the TESM head-technician as well as the Professor of Chemistry at UBC.

I brought in my sample of colloidal silver and had it analyzed under the TESM. The technician was really interested in what I had as she had not seen such patterns under the electron microscope. What we saw were crystalline structures of pure silver in the range of about 0.005 - 0.015 microns. I explained to the Professor what I was doing, in hopes that he could shed more light on the process. He, of all people, was at a loss as to exactly what was being "brewed". He ran calculations, flipped through chemistry manuals, and consulted with a fellow peer about this colloidal silver generating method. His conclusion from the data of the TESM as well as his background in chemistry was what we were generating was an "ionic~colloidal mixture with 90-95% ions". The actual PPM concentration was determined by analysis with a mass spectrometer. The 5-10% non-ions shows up as an amalgamation of silver ions forming micro-clusters of silver – which fits in the

particle range of a colloid. Hence, ionic~colloidal.

Today we know even more. The milky-white cloud that forms when one uses tap water, and the non-constant- current method of generating ionic~colloidal silver is actually Silver Chloride. The silver ions (Ag+) combine with the chlorine on the water (CL2) to form Silver Chloride (AgCl), which precipitates out as a white/cloudy substance. We know now that AgCl is not very bio-friendly and should be avoided in ingesting. The way to do this is to use ONLY distilled water.

Now, more on the voltage and current: The progression of the technology now takes us to making the ionic~colloidal with the more advanced "constant-current" method. In the classical 3 x 9 volt battery method, the current is not controlled. This causes a runaway effect whereby the conductivity of the water increases at a steady rate as more silver is sintered off the electrodes, which increases the water's conductivity causing even more silver to sinter off. This causes more micro-clustering of the silver, increasing the colloidal proportion, and therefore increasing the particle sizes. The percentage amount of ions is reduced accordingly. Not surprisingly, one can brew up a colloidal silver mixture in about 20 minutes.

The more advanced "next generation" method uses a "constant-current" source to help control the current through the silver electrodes. Trial and error as well as results from other folks adding to the knowledgebase shows that a value of the current in the range of 1.0 to 1.5 mA produces excellent, repeatable and reliable results. One now makes an ionic~colloidal solution with a higher percentage ions than with the non-constant- current method. What is that percentage? There are many uncontrolled factors that can still influence the actual number but 95% or higher ionic content is a conservative estimate.

The PPM concentration is held at 5-10 PPM. The one trade-off of the constant-current method is it now takes about 2 hours per 8 ounces distilled water to make the ionic~colloidal solution. However, you are now getting a superior product.

OK, enough of my ramblings.

Russ

> > >

> > > Does anybody know how much ionic silver, the beck device produces? If you

> > > made

> > > 1 cup of colloidal silver, how much ionic silver is actually in there?

> >

> > ***** SOME ORIGINAL MSG. CONTENT WAS SNIPPED *****

> > >

> > > I read somewhere how they say colloidal contains about 75% ionic?

> > >

> > > Please show me some research paper links if you have any for beck's device.

> > > Thanks.

> > >

> >

>