Re: Prosoteine, an energy nutrient without the jitters

[Guest guest]

> Creatine's ability to replenish ATP is *very* well documented and

> not something I am going to rehash here. Anyone can do an internet

> search and verify this.

Cyberweight,

I did, and here's a great peer-reviewed article on the pharmacology

of creatine:

http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/53/2/161

Rather than rehash, but to simply add focus and accuracy to your

statement, it says creatine is the *SHUTTLE MOLECULE* that transports

ATP across the mitochondrial membrane. This means it increases the

efficacy of the recycling mechanism.

I think you'll agre now that your assertion that creatine replenishes

ATP remains unsupported. I'm looking at methods to increase actual

ATP production, rather than the recycling of somewhat lower levels

that already exist. But sure, in a mitochondrial disorder I'd use

everything that might help.

> Yes it is true Warburg *speculated* (in the 50s) that a major

> distinction between normal cells and cancer cells is a reduced rate

> of respiration in cancer cells but to go from that to the above

> statement is wild conjecture on your part (show me the science).

Perhaps you didn't relize that ATP production is an aerobic process;

when a cell is producing lots of ATP is is aerobic and by definition

not cancer, which is anaerobic (fermentative).

> That's not to say the link between mitochondria and cancer is not

> being studied - it is (first thing that comes to mind was the

recent

> conference at the Beatson Institute for Cancer Research Workshop in

> Corinthian, Glasgow at the beginning of October of this year)(to

> quote their brochure - they were meeting to create groups focusing

> on the relationship between mitochondria and cancer, in particular:

> apoptosis, mitochondrial tumor suppressors and mitochondrial

> pharmacology.).

And about time, too; Dr. Koch's work betwen 1920 and 1929

showed that the negative electrical properties of certain quinones

were sufficient to dislodge toxins from the mitochondria, allowing

better ATP production and a fast recession of the cancer.

>

> I know there is a view that damage to mtDNA (from ROS) might lead

to

> the accumulation of abnormal bases and such cumulative damage is

> hypothesized to be a factor in aging, neurological degeneration,

and

> possibly cancer. Then again, other, fairly recent studies have

shown

> mitochondrial enzyme activities associated with DNA repair (in

> short, the mitochondria can repair itself). This is a far, far more

> complicated subject then your claims of a cancer cure would imply.

As we know on this list, there are several ways to cure cancer;

people have done it with something as simple as vegetable juice so it

wouldn't seem wise to marginalize simplicity.

Of course the mitochondria can indeed repair itself, and this is how

Prosoteine might work (according to the manufacturer). I don't think

I implied any cure, and in fact my clients who do have cancer are

still alive, and they didn't use Prosoteine until this week.

While looking further down the rabbit hole of the mechanism of

depreciation and death due to ATP (energy) depletion, I ran into this

research that shows antioxidants in this case glutathione is/are

first depleted. This research used a single known challenge to liver

cells.

This results in mitochondrial damage, leading to reduced ATP

production and finally, death of the cell.

" CONCLUSIONS: The mechanism of azathioprine toxicity to hepatocytes

involves depletion of GSH leading to mitochondrial injury with

profound depletion of ATP and cell death by necrosis. Cell death was

prevented by potent antioxidants, glycine and blocking the

mitochondrial permeability transition pore. "

It makes a good case for ensuring those antioxidants are taken,

particularly glutathione precursors, to avoid this damage. But in

fact I have a small study here that had seven of seven prostate

cancers resolve with glutathione increasing cold-processed whey

alone. Glutathione is itself used not only for ROS reduction but also

in the Krebs cycle.

Here's a link to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=pubmed & cmd=Display & dopt=pubmed_pubmed & from_uid=11738103 related

articles.

>

> > Creatine…it does not restore mitochondria

>

> They are not missing, what is there to restore?

Good question, and I admit to not having all the answers.

> ... your claims of

> how it works are just not believable to anyone who gives even a

> cursory attention to science.

Not my claims at all; all we have for now are the manufacturer's

claims, sketchy as they are. If there's a problem with them I'm sure

we'll eventually discover that, but bear in mind this is a respected

company with a respected reseach team behind it. I expect we'll find

ut much more after the patent is granted.

> I find it interesting that in the

> process of posting replies to my statements you conveniently left

> out my request for the research backing your claims. Can I assume

> you don't have any - or are you going to tell me studies are being

> organized right now but it is too early to report anything?

>

As far as I've been able to glean from the company, they aren't

telling right now, and I think when the patent is granted more will

be divulged. They are under no obligation to submit their documents

to medical scrutiny, and not doing so is probably a good move, as the

product is a food at present and can remain so. Like you, I'm anxious

to find out details.

>

> You should be happy - you have gotten more exposure for your drink

> then if I have had kept quiet - which is what I normally do when

you

> start pushing some new supplement or such (isn't it about time to

> start promoting LifeForce's Body Balance again?).

>

Nasty I'll bet you're some street fighter.

regards,

Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

>

> This is a place to exchange health information, and to help

> ourselves and other heal. This is not a place to deal with

> emotional issues that you have amongst yourselves. You

> two need to take this rivalry outside of the group.

>

> Many Blessings,

> Whitneay T. Vanwells,

Blessings Whitneay,

This is an important kind of discussion on a health discussion board.

Cyberweight may be contentious but he is certainly no rival; he is

simply going through the process of skepticism prior to the

assimilation of a new technology. Without really ackowledging his

abrasive method of questioning, which may be nothing more than a

regional trait, I see the questions themselves as a good thing.

Furthe, I believe that healthy skepticism should arise particularly

when a final judgement one way or the other at this stage would be

prejudicial.

To paraphrase Arthur Schopenhauer

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/4701.html " All truth passes

through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently

opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. "

And here's another one from the same page: " Every person takes the

limits of their own field of vision for the limits of the world "

The explosive market acceptance of the new energy formula we are

discussing indicates in part how well it works. Because one can feel

a difference very quickly one doesn't need to take it for a month, or

three or more months as is usually the case with a nutrient, so the

sales volume is pretty well a result of immediate effect, as opposed

to projected effect.

Duncan Crow