Question...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/16/00 8:12:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Mand@... writes:

<< But, every time it

comes up we fight. And this is my best friend! Yikes! Any advice would be

appreciated. M. in Michigan >>

,

I have the SAME problem!! My best friend feels the same as yours. Of course I

DO think EVERYTHING is a conspiracy, she is right

Her line is always " Well, it's only 1 in a billion that this happens to and

my kids are fine " " It is God's will " (meanwhile, I guess thaht means my DD

almost losing her life doesnt count)

OH Please!! I get SO ANNOYED when she says crap like that!!

The last time we had an argument b/c her 2 month old got his first round of

shots, a week later he came down with " bronchitis " (bull) They had him on

Erythromycin, and he was coughing so badly his eyes had broken capilaries and

he would cough violently for about 30-45 seconds and then let out a big

grunt..no fever, etc...

I just stood back and gave her a look like " told you so " and she said well,

it's Gods will " I blew up at her and I said.. " Well if you remember it says

right in the bible God helps those who help themselves " " You wouldnt drink a

glass of cyanide and think well, God will protect me " She got all mad at me.

Anyway, she still gets him vaxed. At his 4 month he got another round. He

screamed for 3.5 hours, then slept for 5 hours. He was like in a blank stare

state for 2 days.

She got concerned, called me, and then called her MD who says that all is

well and normal, so she told me to shutup, I said whatever..do not call me

anymore, you obviously DONT want my help.

I will not mention vaxs again until next month....his 6 month round

I know how you feel, unfortunately we cannot convince those who are so

brainwashed they DO NOT WANT to see the truth. People are afraid to think we

have been lied to for so long!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Attached mama~ and nursling nna 9/20/96

email~

attachedmama@...

homepage~

http://hometown.aol.com/jmslpn/myhomepage/profile.html

(homepage down at the moment)

Attachment parenting forum~ http://www.delphi.com/n/main.asp?webtag=attachedma

ma

" Our Loving Home is a NO SPANK ZONE!! "

" Defy the mainstream.....parent gently "

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/16/00 11:04:10 AM Central Daylight Time,

attachedmama@... writes:

<< I will not mention vaxs again until next month....his 6 month round >>

I wouldn't mentione it at all. It's her life, and the lives SHE is

responsible for. She has made it clear how she feels. She trusts the

medical establishment, in the face of failure, more than she trusts a friend

who has lived the life she is trying to deny. It sounds to me, because of

the already occurred reactions, that her child has already suffered some

brain damage (even 5 minutes of high pitched screaming is brain damage), and

as he gets older, things will start becoming apparent. They will never tie

the two together, unless by then she has honestly questioned her previous

choices. I say, live and let live.

[Guest guest]

When I speak to friends and family about the vaccine issue and they are in

disbelief, I point them to a few sites on the net and vaccine related books

so they can read and judge for themselves. If they show no signs of

interest in the matter, I leave them alone. However, I don't tolerate

namecalling from them, it's disrespectful.

Question...

>What do you tell someone who says " Why would our government or our doctors

>give us vaccines they know are bad? That doesn't make sense. "

>I immediately hit upon the financial aspect, but she thinks I am a big

>conspiracy theorist anyway, so she became indignant at that. I almost

called

>her back last night and said, " Listen, I don't want to fight about this

>issue. Be assured I want what is best for my child. " But, every time it

>comes up we fight. And this is my best friend! Yikes! Any advice would

be

>appreciated. M. in Michigan

>

>

>

>

>

>

_____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______

http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

[Guest guest]

i copied and forwarded this wonderful snip of conversation off this

list and some wonderful points are made.

*smile*

chris

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i am forwarding a bit of this conversation off my vaccination info

list to all of my friends and family who are researching this issue,

whether you have been researching for days or years. i could not have

said it so well myself, let alone better.

*smile*

chris

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~

<snipped> In order to believe that vaccines are really harmful

> and dangerous for

> children and that the world would be better off

> without them, you have to

> believe that either A) The scientists and doctors

> who develop and administer

> vaccines to children are stupid and/or completely

> misinformed about the

> subject, or the doctors and scientists who are

> pushing vaccines are evil

> and know that vaccines kill and maim innocent

> children but, through some vast

> government conspiracy, are pursuing the money and

> fame behind vaccines and

> vaccine research inspite of the damage done.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's not as black and white as that (they're either

stupid or evil, ignorance or conspiracy). The medical

education system (and other sciences, as well) is very

entrenched and inflexible, and the desired product of

that education is a fully indoctrinated member of the

club. I believe the content of the curriculum is

tightly controlled, by both the pre-existing

educational establishment and by the medical industry.

Boat-rocking is not allowed. Vaccinations really are

a sacred cow, part of - and integral to - the

entrenched philosophy. Most people who are products

of medical education would no sooner question them

than they would question gravity. Once something is

embraced by the educational system, questioning it is

forbidden (this can be seen throughout history in

regards to all the sciences, not just medicine). An

idea doesn't necessarily have to be actually proven in

order to be assimilated, it just has to be sold to the

right people. Once that happens, getting it changed

takes a great deal of time. It's sad but true that in

most cases people who have gone through medical

education don't WANT to learn anything that comes from

a source outside that insular world, let alone

something that would rattle its foundations. They

aren't taught to be healers, they're taught to be

technicians, that they know the patient better than

the patient does, and are often discouraged from

viewing patients as individual humans, they are

instead vessels for disease and a problem to be

conquered. Most doctors only know what they were

taught in med school and what the drug company reps

tell them, and that includes vaccine information.

Have you ever had the experience of being patronized,

ridiculed, browbeaten or vilified by a doctor for

questioning their diagnosis or instructions? It's not

at all an uncommon occurrence, because they are

programmed to assume a position of power and

superiority over anyone not a doctor. I've known

wonderful doctors and nurses, people who truly want to

heal individuals, who came through medical school with

their humanity intact, but I sadly feel they are the

exception. There are practicing doctors and nurses

who don't buy the party line, but in that world if you

go around saying the emperor has no clothes you end up

shunned, your character assassinated, and/or your

license taken away, and pphhfft, there goes your

livelihood, eight or more years of expensive education

down the drain, and quite possibly your personal

identity as well. This all has a direct bearing on

the fact that most of the medical industry blindly

pushes vaccinations, ignores or discounts personal

stories of adverse reactions, and eagerly embraces any

new vaccination (even in the wake of catastrophes like

the swine flu and rotavirus shots) - it is integral to

the very foundation of their world, and right or wrong

they'll cling to it fiercely. It will take moving

mountains to change the paradigm. We're chipping

away.

Aubin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VERY well said, Aubin.

I am a nurse and was a pediatric nurse from 1971 - 1978 and then

again in

the late 80's in peds icu. You are just taught that is how it is and

YOU

NEVER question it until something happens, usually. It is just part

of

your information base, like colds have runny noses as symptoms! Are

really

can't say it any better than Aubin.

1. Some doctors certainly are knowingly participating in this

2. The medical associations are not 'love your baby' associations -

if you

knew the history of the AMA and their joining with drug companies

after the

civil war, and with Rockefellers & Carnegie in early 1900's to close

down

homeopathy schools and medical schools with women and prosecutions

that

happened because of them - inventions and discoveries of cures totally

stiffled and sometimes the inventors imprisoned or killed.

3. most doctors just don't have time to read and research themselves

(not

excusing them). They just believe what they were told in medical

school

without questioning and start their day off with representatives of

the

drug companies.

4. they also don't have a well-rounded education that is part of the

real-world. So I think sometimes they aren't able to see the big

picture.

They aren't a part of the well world - dealing with sickness all the

time.

5. and they are used to being deferred to and intimidating (sometimes

nicely, but intimidating) and BEING right. critical thinking skills

are

lacking.

6. and there is fear on the part of a doctor - unconscious and

conscious.

They really can't speak their mind. They will suffer the

consequences.

7. If the truth was what they were after - there wouldn't be

suppression

of this information, there wouldn't be suppression of alternative

practitioners, there wouldn't be laws not allowing any other

treatment for

cancer but chemo, radiation and surgery (yes there are laws), there

wouldn't be the outlawing of Dr. Burzynski (? sp) treatment for

anyone who

wanted it. There would be freedom of choice.

See Guylaine Lancot, MD and what she went through in Canada

see also expresses very well why doctors don't tell the truth -

complicity,

fear, ignorance and other things

" Medical Mafia "

http://www.ralphmoss.com/quebecdoc.html

http://wlake.com/hicks/sheep.html

http://www.whaleto.freeserve.co.uk/Vaccines/baratosy.html

http://www.bridgeoflove.com/bookstore/bol/med-mafia.html

http://www.hans.org/web_order_catalogue/politicsofhealthcare.html

Sheri

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> What do you tell someone who says " Why would our government or our

doctors

> give us vaccines they know are bad? That doesn't make sense. "

> I immediately hit upon the financial aspect, but she thinks I am a

big

> conspiracy theorist anyway, so she became indignant at that. I

almost called

> her back last night and said, " Listen, I don't want to fight about

this

> issue. Be assured I want what is best for my child. " But, every

time it

> comes up we fight. And this is my best friend! Yikes! Any advice

would be

> appreciated. M. in Michigan

[Guest guest]

My best friend and I used to fight about it too. She refused to listen to

anything, until one day she took her 4 month old daughter in for her DTaP

and she began having siezures. Now she listens to me and says that the

doctors and health dept LIED to her!!!

Fortunatly, the baby has had no more vaccines, is two and a half now and

doing great.

Carmella

Question...

> What do you tell someone who says " Why would our government or our doctors

> give us vaccines they know are bad? That doesn't make sense. "

> I immediately hit upon the financial aspect, but she thinks I am a big

> conspiracy theorist anyway, so she became indignant at that. I almost

called

> her back last night and said, " Listen, I don't want to fight about this

> issue. Be assured I want what is best for my child. " But, every time it

> comes up we fight. And this is my best friend! Yikes! Any advice would

be

> appreciated. M. in Michigan

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amen! It IS disprespectful! I just say I've done years and years of studies and

it's been my experience that too many babies have been harmed from vaccines to

turn a deaf ear. Bascially if they were to do the studies, then I can have a

debate with them but until then, I know more than they do. I know it sounds

rather arrogant but I'm tired of trying to convince people who don't want to

learn anyways.

I ask them to a huge question. In Arizona we have exemptions but no one really

knows about them. We're told it's the law that the kids have to be vaccinated

to get into school. If vaccines are so good, then why are we lied to and told

that we have to be vaccinated to get into school where there really are

exemptions? If they're so great, we are we leagally mandated? If a product is

SO GOOD, I for one would RUN down to the store/dr's office and be the first in

line but to be FORCED?????? (I better get off my box now...)

Hmmmm....

wrote:

> When I speak to friends and family about the vaccine issue and they are in

> disbelief, I point them to a few sites on the net and vaccine related books

> so they can read and judge for themselves. If they show no signs of

> interest in the matter, I leave them alone. However, I don't tolerate

> namecalling from them, it's disrespectful.

>

>

>

> Question...

>

> >What do you tell someone who says " Why would our government or our doctors

> >give us vaccines they know are bad? That doesn't make sense. "

> >I immediately hit upon the financial aspect, but she thinks I am a big

> >conspiracy theorist anyway, so she became indignant at that. I almost

> called

> >her back last night and said, " Listen, I don't want to fight about this

> >issue. Be assured I want what is best for my child. " But, every time it

> >comes up we fight. And this is my best friend! Yikes! Any advice would

> be

> >appreciated. M. in Michigan

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______

> http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/16/00 1:08:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

midwife1@... writes:

<< If they're so great, we are we leagally mandated? >>

If it is so great why do we have to sign papers saying we are aware of the

things it will do to us???????

If I get started I will not stop..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Attached mama~ and nursling nna 9/20/96

email~

attachedmama@...

homepage~

http://hometown.aol.com/jmslpn/myhomepage/profile.html

(homepage down at the moment)

Attachment parenting forum~ http://www.delphi.com/n/main.asp?webtag=attachedma

ma

" Our Loving Home is a NO SPANK ZONE!! "

" Defy the mainstream.....parent gently "

[Guest guest]

You could always come back with " Why would I choose not to do something for my

children if was really in their best interests? If there weren't real concerns

about the dangers of vaccines why wouldn't I give them to my children? " You

certainly have nothing to gain by not getting your kids vaccinated (oh yeah, I

forgot in the US you have to pay for them, so I guess you would save some money.

But would it really be worth it if vaccines were so wonderful?) I always think,

well, at least I did my research and then made my decision. Has this person who

is so judgmental of my decision done any research of her own? The answer is

usually no.

Mand@... wrote:

> What do you tell someone who says " Why would our government or our doctors

> give us vaccines they know are bad? That doesn't make sense. "

> I immediately hit upon the financial aspect, but she thinks I am a big

> conspiracy theorist anyway, so she became indignant at that. I almost called

> her back last night and said, " Listen, I don't want to fight about this

> issue. Be assured I want what is best for my child. " But, every time it

> comes up we fight. And this is my best friend! Yikes! Any advice would be

> appreciated. M. in Michigan

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anyone out there who can help? Please respond to Marcella directly.

Thanks, Sandy

ALL INFORMATION, DATA, AND MATERIAL CONTAINED, PRESENTED, OR PROVIDED HERE

IS FOR GENERAL INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS

REFLECTING THE KNOWLEDGE OR OPINIONS OF THE PUBLISHER, AND IS NOT TO BE

CONSTRUED OR INTENDED AS PROVIDING MEDICAL OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION

WHETHER OR NOT TO VACCINATE IS AN IMPORTANT AND COMPLEX ISSUE AND SHOULD BE

MADE BY YOU, AND YOU ALONE, IN CONSULTATION WITH YOUR HEALTH CARE PROVIDER.

Question...

I am researching alternatives to vaccinations for a paper that I most do for

school. I was wondering if anyone on your lists may be able to help me

locate good information or leads. I am also interested in an alternative to

the Tetanus booster. My doctor keeps trying to push it on me whenever I go

in. I'd like to know if there is a homeopathic alternative.

Thanks.

....Marcella

The Natural Mama ... Frenchie Moose ... Petition for Life

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/9/02 10:45:02 AM GTB Daylight Time, larana@...

writes:

<< : How long should I keep him away from

her after she get's this jab? We always have play dates together and

they might chew on the same thing or something. TIA for the advice.

>>

Well according to the insert reactions and possible rashes start from 7-14

days after the shot.I guess if you want to be super cautious you could avoid

the kid for 4-6 weeks.Personally I would not worry about it and just give a

bit extra vitA/C and perhaps avoid the 7-14 day period after the shots.

Sara

ps.not suprised about Eve at all

[Guest guest]

I think that is absolutely true. Anemia was my problem and I am still

border line anemia.

Question...

> I get sick often, other than achalasia sick. I was wondering if

> since we have achalasia, and the things that come with that, we have

> a weak immune system?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi sarah,

here also, i dont believe this is true, i have a strong immune systom and very rarely get unwell. i am quite curious as to our ethnic origin, can i be solbold to ask what everyone's ethnic origin is?

sarah

hertfordshire, uk.

Question...> I get sick often, other than achalasia sick. I was wondering if> since we have achalasia, and the things that come with that, we have> a weak immune system?>> >>>>>>

[Guest guest]

To expand further on the question about a weak immune system, in my case the

constant regurgitation after meals contributed to my weak immune system my

body was not getting the proper nourishment even though I took vitamins most

of which never got through. I would pick up a virus more often than most

people would which of course weakened my system even more.

Fitzgerald

Question...

> I get sick often, other than achalasia sick. I was wondering if

> since we have achalasia, and the things that come with that, we have

> a weak immune system?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for replying to my question, . I had a feeling that

my constant regurgitation of meals also gave way to my weak immune

system, as well.

> To expand further on the question about a weak immune system, in my

case the

> constant regurgitation after meals contributed to my weak immune

system my

> body was not getting the proper nourishment even though I took

vitamins most

> of which never got through. I would pick up a virus more often

than most

> people would which of course weakened my system even more.

>

> Fitzgerald

>

> Question...

>

>

> > I get sick often, other than achalasia sick. I was wondering if

> > since we have achalasia, and the things that come with that, we

have

> > a weak immune system?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

Thank you for your response to my earlier posts.

I have a question for you all. I am in the early stages of whatever I have (I

have my rheumatologist appointment on Monday) and am taking note of any

symptom/pain I have. The past week I have had pain in my right fingers. This

pain almost feels like I have a bruise on my joints and it comes and goes. Is

this something I should worry about? I have no idea what arthritis feels like.

Thank you everyone.

Warm regards,

Amy

[Guest guest]

Reposting as I didn't get any replies.

Joi

Question...

My left knee has been causing some problems for a few years now. It has had

the " cleaning " surgery where they go in and smooth the torn up cartilage.

That's about all they want to do for me. What is has been doing, and I've

told them this and it's getting much more frequent, the knee cap doesn't

want to stay where it's supposed to be. Many times a week, when I go to bend

my leg even just to walk, I have to stop, leave the knee bent and push the

knee cap back to the center just to continue to walk. I've been having a lot

more pain, especially when I go walking or swimming or pretty much anything.

It also swells but not significantly or for an extended time. When it

swells, I get off my feet and elevate it. I do have Celebrex and have had to

begin taking that again. I just have to be very careful because now I'm to

the point of not being able to take Advil AND Tylenol even once for a

headache or when my knees hurt. Is it time to push forward on having someone

take a look (even though the docs here are so behind) or should I just do as

much physically as I can to help me loose weight and take the Celebrex?

Joi

[Guest guest]

Wish I could help, but I have never experience a knee cap situation like

that.

Good luck,

Don

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 1:57 AM, West <wildwest@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> Reposting as I didn't get any replies.

>

> Joi

>

> Question...

>

> My left knee has been causing some problems for a few years now. It has had

> the " cleaning " surgery where they go in and smooth the torn up cartilage.

> That's about all they want to do for me. What is has been doing, and I've

> told them this and it's getting much more frequent, the knee cap doesn't

> want to stay where it's supposed to be. Many times a week, when I go to

> bend

> my leg even just to walk, I have to stop, leave the knee bent and push the

> knee cap back to the center just to continue to walk. I've been having a

> lot

> more pain, especially when I go walking or swimming or pretty much

> anything.

> It also swells but not significantly or for an extended time. When it

> swells, I get off my feet and elevate it. I do have Celebrex and have had

> to

> begin taking that again. I just have to be very careful because now I'm to

> the point of not being able to take Advil AND Tylenol even once for a

> headache or when my knees hurt. Is it time to push forward on having

> someone

> take a look (even though the docs here are so behind) or should I just do

> as

> much physically as I can to help me loose weight and take the Celebrex?

>

> Joi

>

>

>

--

Don

[Guest guest]

You need to find a doctor (surgeon) for that. My knee caps use to dislocate all

the time. That will only get worse. I had patellofemoral replacements in both

knees. You might have to travel to find a doctor that can help with that

problem. My knee caps would dislocate while I was sitting down and when I would

try and get up I couldn't bend my knees until I was able to get my knee caps

back in place.

On Jul 27, 2011, at 2:57 AM, West wrote:

> Reposting as I didn't get any replies.

>

> Joi

>

> Question...

>

> My left knee has been causing some problems for a few years now. It has had

> the " cleaning " surgery where they go in and smooth the torn up cartilage.

> That's about all they want to do for me. What is has been doing, and I've

> told them this and it's getting much more frequent, the knee cap doesn't

> want to stay where it's supposed to be. Many times a week, when I go to bend

> my leg even just to walk, I have to stop, leave the knee bent and push the

> knee cap back to the center just to continue to walk. I've been having a lot

> more pain, especially when I go walking or swimming or pretty much anything.

> It also swells but not significantly or for an extended time. When it

> swells, I get off my feet and elevate it. I do have Celebrex and have had to

> begin taking that again. I just have to be very careful because now I'm to

> the point of not being able to take Advil AND Tylenol even once for a

> headache or when my knees hurt. Is it time to push forward on having someone

> take a look (even though the docs here are so behind) or should I just do as

> much physically as I can to help me loose weight and take the Celebrex?

>

> Joi

>

>