Re: UK Medical System/Mal

[Guest guest]

Dear Mal,

Some people I know quite well who live in England tell me that the crummy

doctors seem to work in socialized medicine (and are mostly imports from other

countries, as well), while the good doctors charge astronomical fees, and do not

accept people from the free care system. Thus, the only people getting sound

treatment are those that can afford it. Is it like that in Wales too?

They also told me it can take months to get appointments, and sometimes you

end up having to pay the " free " doctors the full fee to get in sooner! That

would drive me crazy!

Over here, I get upset about all the " no out of network " rules with HMO's!

However, at least we have alot of choices on the lists, and there are usually

some good doctors, along with the bad. There are HMO's that allow out of

network, but most companies won't give you that type of insurance, or at least

none

that I've worked for.

That'a a crummy system wherein they have socialized medicine so all can get

care, but they allow the doctors who do not want to participate to charge full

fees. Naturally, the good doctors won't join the system because they probably

want to earn a decent living!

It must be awful for those that are seriously ill over there! Especially

based upon what happened to Helen.

I hope your foot pain has finally subsided, and that you are feeling better!

Debra!

[Guest guest]

Thank God for the Medical System We Have in the U.S.A. ...I been going to

s Hopkins for over 20 years and Thank God For Them ... I might be on 12

different prescriptions and Remicade but it's the Right Cocktail for me ...

Walter essexhaus@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Debra,

I cannot say that all of the best doctors are in the Private sector, nor

that all of the doctors in the National Health Service are the rubbish. But

it's certainly a lottery over here and just because you get a Brit' doctor

doesn't mean that you get the best.

To say that the imported doctors and nurses are no good, would also be very

wrong, since there are a lot of Chinese, Arab and Indian doctors who do some

great work over here. (The same goes for the nurses.)

There are three doctors at the local health clinic I attend....One is a

woman and other two are men.

People tell me that although the woman is much younger and less experienced

than the men, she is much more attentive than they are and seemingly more

willing to try and help.

I told earlier on about an Egyptian Consultant Enterologist who saw me

back in 1996 and at first he wasn't sure what was wrong with me, but unlike

the Brit' doctor who'd seen me previously he didn't just shrug his shoulders

and say, " Well I can't see anything wrong with you, so there can't be

anything wrong! "

He gave me an endoscopy at both ends and after I came around again, he told

me that I had 4 duodenal ulcers and that he suspected that I may have IBS

also.

And, about 6 or 7 weeks later I was as good as new!

Although initially he hadn't said anything to me, he then apologised for

doubting me in the first place....Something I hadn't realised at the time.

But to me, he was a good doctor, because although he couldn't find anything

initially, and he may have doubted me initially; he still carried on looking

and when he found something, he acted on it immediately......Whereas Brit'

doctors have argued with me.

There is something in this country which actually promotes mistrust of

foreign doctors in this country, instead of helping them to be accepted.

As you know, all Medical staff entering America from other parts of the

World are given written tests about their designated subjects and areas. (I

mean Enterologists have to sit examinations on their area, which is

Enterology and Rheumatologists have to take exams on Rheumatology if they

are to be allowed to practice in America.

It doesn't matter how many qualifications they have on paper or how many

bits of paper they happen to have to their name....They still have to sit an

examination....And I think that this is paramount!

I find it ludicrous that in the UK and partly because of the shortage of

staff, that people coming into this country don't have to take an

examination test.

And people are able to buy 'forged' documents including some University

Doctorates and other examination qualifications, in order to get the

position and salary that they want.

I know that this can happen because I have seen forged Engineering Degree

Qualifications, which have been taken from some immigrants to Arabian

countries.

No way had these people studied and gained degrees in these subjects.....For

one thing they didn't know what they were doing and were a liability to

themselves and their colleagues.

And for another thing, all of the men had passed the same exams and had the

same papers, with the same serial numbers on them.

I can feel sorry for these people because they were trying for jobs and

hoping that they could just muddle through. But were found out.

Of course it becomes worrying if people can also buy their Doctorate

Certificates and Medical Qualifications after perhaps doing a year at

Medical School and then dropping out.

..............And this is everyone's concern.

You asked about queue jumpers?..........Well most Consultants have their

given quota of National Health patients and they are also allowed to take on

a few Private Patients.

Since the Private patients have private insurances the Consultants are able

to charge them more than they can for the National Health patients. (Which

is fixed.)

If there weren't such a shortage of these Consultants, then there probably

wouldn't be a problem.......But the huge queues make the people with the

private insurances want to jump the queue and of course human nature

dictates that people (even doctors) are greedy.

So people who are in the queue and are perhaps determined to be less needy

(or important) than others may find themselves sliding to the bottom of the

list sometimes.........This may happen so that the Consultants can make

their extra money from the private patients with insurances.......And as the

queue gets longer the number of private patients increases.

The others suffer even longer queues, even though all of the equipment is

owned and was paid for by the National Health patients' National Insurance

money.

And this is a prime example of the two-tier health system!

(We are also watching other two-tier systems developing over here, as we

talk.)

Yes Debra, in short, the system here is rubbish compared with France,

Germany and Holland. (And much of it is to do with the class-system we have

have here.)

At hospitals over here there are a shortage of beds and some of the more

critical operations are now being carried out over in France.

In addition some teams of specialist doctors from Germany have being flown

into UK, to perform specialist operations, where patients can't be moved

abroad.

Anyhow, I hope to be able to get over to Germany sometime soon, to do a bit

of " queue jumping " of my own.

Best regards!

Mal.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mal,

I always used to think socialized medicine was the perfect way for everyone

to get care and to not have to worry about having health insurance. Over here,

if you don't have health insurance you are basically screwed. Most employers

make you chip in towards the astronomical premiums they have to pay for

coverage anyways. In addition, we are often stuck with huge copays. For

instance, I

have a $500 hospital copay, and I find it ludicrous that I have to chip in for

my insurance, and yet have to pay such a huge deductible. Typically, I am

paying for the entire visit, unless it's an extended one of course (i.e., not

just

for the emergency room). I'm rarely in the hospital though, thank god.

I guess it comes down to individual attitudes when it comes to doctors. The

thing that stinks is when they have too many patients to deal with, and they

stop noticing the little important things...tests slightly off, etc., or don't

pay attention to new symptoms you are having, even if minor, until they get

more severe. That's why I've been checking all my tests for years now and noting

patterns or " out of range " readings. If I hadn't done that, my anemia would

have become so severe by now that I might have had serious organ damage. I was

already having shortness of breath all the time and constant muscular pain all

over.

I've never been to the UK, so I can only go by what my friends there have

told me. I guess they've had some bad experiences, although they did say it's

worse in large cities versus where they live in a smaller town.

That's scary that docs don't need to take an exam over there. They should at

least be qualified. It's nice to know that someone has studied and has the

ability to learn!!! I know some people from the US who couldn't get into med

school here so they went to foreign countries to study. When they wanted to come

back here, they had to go to school for another 1-1/2 years to qualify here.

It's important that they get the knowledge they need under their belt before

they actually work here. At least that signifies that someone is capable and

won't seriously injure someone.

You can also go the DO (doctor of Osteopathy) route here, if you can't make

the grades for the better medical schools. You still practice like an MD but

the training is different and I'm told, somewhat easier, from a close friend

that went this way. That doesn't mean they won't be as good as an MD though,

it's

what each individual puts into it. I know some PA's (physicians assistants)

who seem to know more than the doctors! I guess that happens when they are the

ones seeing all the patients while the doc is on the phone all day or not in!

Forgery goes on everywhere and they've found it here too. Now they check

everything for doctors, but I've read of cases where docs who worked for years

and

didn't have valid degrees, or docs who had committed crimes and changed to

other locations got jobs easily because no one ever checked - they're quals

sounded so impressive. It happens everywhere.

For that matter, alot of companies don't check your degree over here, mostly

smaller ones though. No one has ever really checked mine or even asked me for

it. They just ask to see work I've done. The place I work now didn't even care

where I went to school and didn't even look at the resume and just gave it

back to me at the interview when I handed it in)!! Pretty funny actually,

although someone had recommended me (a friend I worked with previously).

If you go to Germany, are you covered there, or does it only apply to the UK?

I can't imagine someone having to leave their country, and pay for health

care in another!

Just curious...are you an engineer? I think I remember you mentioning that in

a prior post.

Debra!

[Guest guest]

Dear Mal,

No need to apologize. No offense taken here, in fact I've never seen anything

you've written that would cause me or anyone to feel that way!

Actually, your English humor brightens up the website, so not to worry!

Sometimes, I think my way of writing is too analytical and a bit too strong,

but that's my nature due to the type of work I do. I guess I spend too much

time analyzing and writing!

I just hate the way one has to worry about having health insurance over

here...and the consequences of not being able to work if you become quite ill.

With

RS, who knows what the future holds? I might stay the same forever, or even

improve (I do have hope!), or, it could get worse at any time. Healthcare is

always such a big worry for me.

I'd like to know what type of engineering work you do. Please write me at

Emerica130@....

Debra!

[Guest guest]

Mal, now that you have free movement throughout Europe, can you go to other

countries and get medical treatment like the recent poster did in France? I

had my AS first treated sucessfully by a Norwegian doctor for a nominal sum and

I was a tourist from Canada. He took a lot of time with me, almost an hour,

with my then Canadian rheumatologist, I was always in and out of his office in

43 seconds flat -- every time (I have a new Rheumatologist now and she is very

thorough). A friend of mine had to go to the hospital and stay for three

days while she was travelling in Italy. She was charged exactly zero, but she

said she had the best care she ever had over and over again and it cost nothing!

She is an American and I think it upset her belief system that socialized

medicine could function. Fortunately, I think your experience would renew her

faith in failings of the socialized system. We in Canada are in the middle.

In some areas it is hard to get care. In others it is fairly easy, it depends

on the province and sometimes different parts of the province. People in

Toronto and the surrounding areas complain they can't find a family Doctor who

is

taking new patients. Even here in Ottawa, people who move here can get one,

but they have to ask around to family and friends if their Doctor is taking new

patients. We used to have it a lot better, we had more Doctors and a lot

more hospitals and hospital beds for people who needed operation, but we had a

health-care cutting monster for a Premier and he single-handed ruined our

Province's system. His party can't figure out why they lost the last election.

I

still use his name as a curse word.

[Guest guest]

Hello Debra,

Thanks for your e-mail.

I went a bit over the top with my last couple of e-mails so I'd like to

apologise to anyone who may feel offended by what I wrote.

And so I'l try to keep this one shorter.

Socialised medicine is really quite a good thing and has been part of UK

life for the past 50 years. (Since just after World War 2.)

During this time it has been a God-send particularly to the poorer people,

who couldn't pay for expensive operations and treatment.

Of course, everyone who is in employment pays a monthly National Insurance

contribution (by law), which is collected at source, along with taxes. And

of course some of the richer people have also taken out Private Insurances.

This thing was never an issue when I was in the Armed Forces because I

wasn't allowed to use the standard health system. Then when I went overseas

to work the medical and dental services were part of my work

contract......And, ironically I was never ill then anyhow.

The problem for me, is that I'm out of work (without pay) and that Private

Insurance at my age (46) starts to cost a lot of money.

(And it costs you a small fortune if you happen to be under medication when

you apply for it.....With many companies you just can't get cover, once

you're diagnosed with something.)

(Perhaps a Catch 22 situation?)

There are some very good doctors over here, but all doctors are in short

supply compared with the number of patients and so there's a lot of pressure

and mistakes seem to happen more often than is good for the service. (Or the

families of the people that these mistakes happen to.)

The services offered by French and German Health authorities are vastly

superior, by comparison at this time, and they actually have spare beds and

more than enough medical staff to go around.

When I mentioned that doctors don't have to take an examination I wasn't

referring to the doctors who study over here....I merely meant that

qualified doctors from other nations come here with qualifications and

pieces of paper which are not necessarily compatible (or even genuine) and

whose previous records of medical practise (and conduct) may not be

traceable. (A couple of doctors and nurses have already been caught here in

the past.)

This is why most of our College and University Certificates now have

'hollowgrams' (like credit cards have) on them, in order to be certified

genuine. (Because otherwise they are just too easy to copy using modern

computers.)

Anyhow, this e-mail may already be a bit too long for the Risg site, so I'll

have to try and keep this one short.

But what you have said is true and of course, of great concern to anyone who

is being treated by a doctor or nurse.

You are correct in saying that I am an engineer and I have also experienced

the same thing with C.V.s and qualifications on some occasions.

Anyway Debra, best regards!

Mal.

P.S. If you want to carry this conversation further please provide me with a

private e-mail address to mail it to.

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the e-mail.

Yes I think that we can go to most parts of mainland Europe and get

treatment....Some countries may have which are very well equipped, while

others?.......Well, I guess we take our chances.

There are some very good hospitals in the UK but they have long

queues...........We are in Wales so it's even worse for queues.

Some patients are being sent to France for treatment and even for operations

because of these queues.

Likewise it has been known for small teams of German doctors to be flown

over to the UK to perform operations, when the patients cannot be moved,

etc.

My friend , who married a German lady and settled in Germany, tells me

that it's necessary to get hold of certain documents from the Brit' system

before going over there.

Basically they are reclaim chits for the German system to claim back their

money from the Brit' system. Without these I would probably have to pay for

all of the diagnostics and the treatment.

I feel sure that the French and German (and others) medical staff would be

very professional and would take great care with the likes of us. (Perhaps

even more so than people in the Brit' system.)

I'm not so sure about accidents that happen on holiday, like say skiing

accidents, because most Brits' take out separate insurances for that sort of

thing......But I'm sure that something like a car accident or an ordinary

fall would be covered in most, if not all European countries.

(Although the standard of care may vary from country to country.)

Much of what you say about your health system in Canada is also true for

here.......A lot comes from people in power messing about with things, while

some of it probably stems from closure of some old n era hospitals

and the cost of opening new ones to replace them..........But there is

certainly a shortage of Medical Staff to operate them too!

Still, I'm hoping that things can only get better over here.....But I feel

that some changes are called for before that happens.

Anyhow, good luck with your system Matt.

Best regards!

Mal.

[Guest guest]

Holograms are a GREAT idea! I wonder how that's been going on and I had no

idea.

Unfortunately I heard about forged papers from the other side of the

question and was pretty disgusted with the things that ppl tried to do to

get them. There are also ways to get papers which are supposed to be

authentic but one actually just pays a fee for.

I have read some real 'stories' about ppl who made up credentials for things

including caridac specialties, even here in the US. VERY frightening. When I

go into a new doc's office I read all of those pieces of paper on the walls.

When I get home I look 'em up on the net to see if there are official

complaints which have been filed. I do realize that many don't make officail

compalints but if someone has gone to the trouble to make one of those I can

bet there was a VERY good reason for it.

/MI

[Guest guest]

One way I have learned to check up on Doctors and their creditentals and

abilities easily is to ask a nurse who knows the Doctor or another Doctor who

knows the Doctor. The nurses are far more forthcoming. The Doctors won't say

anything against one of their colleagues. But if they damn the Doctor with

faint

praise, then it is best to give that one a pass.