Re: Getting off Prednisone

[Guest guest]

I think Borage extract is supposed to be good. I used it the first time I got

down to 5mg Pred. But haven't tried it of late.

L

In a message dated 99-08-09 13:33:46 EDT, you write:

<< Thank you, all those who answered my letter about prednisone. I will take

your advise, Geoff, about how to wean off the drug. Can you suggest

supplements for building up the adrenal gland? Shirley >>

[Guest guest]

Sjlane99@... wrote:

>

> From: Sjlane99@...

>

> I think Borage extract is supposed to be good. I used it the first time I got

> down to 5mg Pred. But haven't tried it of late.

One thing you may need to keep in mind...

If you've been on high doses, or on Pred a long time, coming down from 3

to 0 can be the most difficult time there is, especially from 3 to 0.

The reason is simple... once you get around 3 mg (say 2.8-3.2) the

adrenal cortex has to kink-in on a continual basis to make up the

shortfall. IOW, your body is finally being forced to work again. This is

why it is so important to go slowly and carefully - to give the adrenals

time to awaken, exercise and get back into shape.

--

Geoff Crenshaw -----------------------

Captain Cook's Cruise Center ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

Religion: Man's attempt to discover God

Christianity: God's offer to save humankind

[Guest guest]

Now that I'm on Mtx, I'm trying to lower my dose of Prednisone. I've been at 8

one day 7 the next, 8 the next, 7 the next, etc. for about 2 weeks. The past 3

days I've been at 7 and seem to be doing ok.

Question: What will it feel like if I drop too fast? I think probably pain,

right? I tried gradually dropping to 6 once prior to taking the Mtx and I

didn't feel very good...aches, bad feet, etc. If

the result is pain, what exactly is happening to cause the pain?

Since the Dr. is trying to get the Mtx to take over so I can get off the

Prednisone, I'm wondering how we'll know when it's time? I think it will be

time when the blood work is just right but what is

" just right " ?

Anyone have any answers for me?

Lea

Geoff Crenshaw wrote:

> Sjlane99@... wrote:

> >

> > From: Sjlane99@...

> >

> > I think Borage extract is supposed to be good. I used it the first time I

got

> > down to 5mg Pred. But haven't tried it of late.

>

> One thing you may need to keep in mind...

>

> If you've been on high doses, or on Pred a long time, coming down from 3

> to 0 can be the most difficult time there is, especially from 3 to 0.

> The reason is simple... once you get around 3 mg (say 2.8-3.2) the

> adrenal cortex has to kink-in on a continual basis to make up the

> shortfall. IOW, your body is finally being forced to work again. This is

> why it is so important to go slowly and carefully - to give the adrenals

> time to awaken, exercise and get back into shape.

> --

> Geoff Crenshaw -----------------------

> Captain Cook's Cruise Center ** Usual Disclaimers **

> -----------------------

> Religion: Man's attempt to discover God

> Christianity: God's offer to save humankind

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Captain Cook's Cruise Center <geoff@...>

> Managing Partner

> Sales Administration

>

> Captain Cook's Cruise Center

> Managing Partner

<geoff@...>

> Sales Administration

> USA

Fax: 559-734-1420

>

Work: 559-636-8413

> Check out our web site and see why we're a Top 5% site, one of the Top 100

Travel Sites on the web, and why even our friends " Down Under " have honored us

as a Top Site Of Interest To New Zealanders.

> Additional Information:

> Last Name Crenshaw

> First Name Geoff

> Version 2.1

[Guest guest]

Lea Tanner wrote:

>

> Question: What will it feel like if I drop too fast? I think probably pain,

Worst case... an excruciatingly bad super-flare leading to death. Most

probable, bad flaring that will scare you into upping the dose. No

living organism can survive without some degree of antiinflammatory

hormone.

> the result is pain, what exactly is happening to cause the pain?

Inadequate amounts of antiinflammatory hormone in the blood. As you drop

the artificial hormone (prednisone) your adrenal cortex gradually has to

come back 'online' so to speak. Failure to give it the necessary time,

or death of the gland, can have grave consequences.

> Since the Dr. is trying to get the Mtx to take over so I can get off the

Prednisone, I'm wondering how we'll know when it's time? I think it will be

time when the blood work is just right but what is

> " just right " ?

Interesting trade off - MTX for Prednisone.

--

Geoff Crenshaw -----------------------

Captain Cook's Cruise Center ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

Religion: Man's attempt to discover God

Christianity: God's offer to save humankind

[Guest guest]

What are the long term benefits of prednisone? I know that osteoporosis

doesn't go away, but don't the other side effects leave when you lower the

dose or get off of it altogether?

Thanks,

Carol

[Guest guest]

Carol Hi, I was told that you shouldn't take prednisone if you have

osteoporosis at all as it weakens the bones, thats what th RA told my friend

who has RA and osteoporsis, the Dr. refused to give it to her. I could be

wrong, out here who knows. But check this one out. from Ohio.

[Guest guest]

Hey Geoff....

I don't mean to barge in but.......

I am supposed to be taking 7.5mg of pred a day though I've been taking 5

for the past year (but don't tell my RD)....I've been doing that for about a

year and a half now...I believe my body is pretty used to having it...when I

stop taking it...such as I have for the past week (just downright tired of

taking it)....I flare...not horribly, but I flare....I had to stop taking it

this week due to some tests I am taking...BUT....after not taking it for a

week...my feet and hands are beginning to hurt again and it is taking me a

bit longer to get up out of bed in the AM (due to stiffness) AND it is

taking me a bit longer to get up out of a chair or my car as well...I can

definately feel a flare....

Now...I've been taking Pantothenic acid which is supposed to assist the

body in its own production of steroids AND I've been taking some Ginger caps

which are supposed to be a natural anti-inflamatory.....

I am QUITE interested in getting off prednisone..I don't look forward to

the side effects of long-term use...not to mention the approx 25lbs I've

gained since being on it....hey...I've gone up two trouser sizes in the last

six months...it took about a year for the weight gain to begin but when it

did it did....I need to get off this stuff. I think I would have gained

quite a bit more if I weren't still keeping myself pretty active...I run two

or three times a week (sure I do it painfully and am stiff a good part of

the day afterwards but running is like slapping this disease in the face...

I've said all that to ask this....what other methods do you have for

getting off prednisone...I know the RD doesn't want to take me off it but I

don't take most of the drugs she wants me to take anyway.....

tks...tony

rheumatic Getting Off Prednisone

> Hi Criss! Geoff Crenshaw here.

>

> On 21 Oct 00 you wrote:

>

> >> I was able to reduce my prednisone from 10 mg./day

> to 7 mg./day - a major victory for me. Unfortunately, I

> had to go off of it because of surgery (knee replacement)

> which caused me to flare. I'm back up on prednisone but

> have hopes that the RA Spes will help me get this flare

> back under control and get weaned off the prednisone. <<

>

> I don't know how much Pred you're on or how long you've been on it. I

> was on 85mg/day and on Pred for a few years. I've been off of it for

> quite along time now, although I am still " enjoying the benefits " of

> long-term exposure and they will never go away. It is an experience not

> to be forgotten.

>

> There are a couple of " known good " methods for getting off of Pred which

> are quite different than what Doctors usually recommend as they do not

> normally have any personal subjective experience to draw upon. These

> methods may be slower but tend to be much easier on the body.

>

> At 7mg you may still be totally dependent on artificial cortisol as

> opposed to that produced naturally by your adrenal cortex. This is a

> very bad state of affairs in that the adrenal gland en toto is effected

> and physically shrinks. Remaining in this state long enough risks total

> & irreparable shut down of the adrenal gland - a deadly serious state of

> affairs. Literally.

>

> If you are having trouble getting off Pred we (many of us in the group)

> have extensive experience in the group and can recommend a " pulsed

> reduction " method. You may find it is very hard for you once you get

> down to 3mg. That is where this sort of method truly pays off. If you

> need help, just ask. You're not alone in this.

>

> Regards,

> Geoff

>

> How can you have hope?

> Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

> EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

>

> http://www.healingyou.org nonprofit Herbals, Homeopathics & Supplements

>

> http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money from travel!

> http://www.800-800-cruise.com 100,000+ travel deals in real-time

>

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I've said all that to ask this....what other methods do you have for

> getting off prednisone...

Not Geoff here, but since you've barged in I'll take the liberty of barging

in too : ). I was just reading about this subject in one of my herbal

books, and the author notes that one study showed that if you take buplerum

along with steroids, it could prevent adrenal shrinkage,and actually reverse

some of the damage done by the steroids. It does not get more specific on

exactly what other " damage " can be reversed except the adrenal shrinkage.

Other herbs sometimes used to reduce the effects of steroids are ginseng

and licorice. This book, and others I have read, advise the use of herbal

anti-inflammatories , like the ginger you are already using and others we've

discussed here (bromelain or cat's claw, are just some that come to mind),

and ones rich in omega oils, like flax or borage or fish oil. The herbs I

have seen recommended for inflammation are usually high in saponins, and are

not usually advised for long-term use either, in most of the references

I've seen. They also can come with side-effects of their own, so don't just

start adding them without either a professional to assist, or a lot of study

into their effects. Even ginger can have adverse effects in high doses, and

it is good to know what they are, so you have a clue about it if you start

having bad effects and don't know what is causing them.

I have also seen in more conservative herbal advice that using herbs like

ginseng, licorice or buplerum can interfere with steroid treatment,

(presumably this is how they diminish the side effects to some extent, I

would venture to guess, by competing for receptor sites). I've also heard

that if prednisone has already caused your blood pressure to go up, licorice

can worsen the situation. Just some ideas to ponder. There are no simple

solutions, even herbal ones.

I've found that reducing the dose first on alternate days helped me to

cut it down, for example, 5mg for 2 days, then 4.5mg for 2 days, then 5mg

for 2 days...I do this for about 2 weeks, then just do 4.5mg for a couple of

weeks, then alternate 4.5mg with 4 mg....be alert to signs that you are

dropping the dose too fast...you should talk to your doctor about this so

you will know what to look out for, IMHO. Adrenal shock is nothing to mess

around with, and that is what can happen if you drop too fast. If you do

not trust your doc enough to talk things like this over with them, perhaps

you should think about getting a doctor you can trust. You are the one who

ultimately must make the decisions about what goes into your body, and you

have to have a doctor you can trust to help you, not one that you feel you

have to be sneaky with. Just my opinion. Liz G.

[Guest guest]

Hi Just a quick note. I was on 85 mg. of prednisone a day for

almost 2 years. There are no good benefits. Not in my opinion. You gain

tons of weight. It makes you ache and hurt after a time and it thins

everything in your body. Bones, tissue, muscle, everything. My brother in

law was on a much smaller dose for several years for colitis. When they

finally had to do a colostomy on him, they had complete success, except that

since the surgery, they have had to redo the surgery and remove the stoma,

(the part that attaches to the bag) 5 times because the tissue and his whole

body is to thinned out from the pred to hold the stitches more than a short

period of time. The last time they put in a mesh and we are hoping this

will hold. Not good news, but hope this helps. My best to you and yours,

Skippy

Re: rheumatic Getting Off Prednisone

> Carol Hi, I was told that you shouldn't take prednisone if you have

> osteoporosis at all as it weakens the bones, thats what th RA told my

friend

> who has RA and osteoporsis, the Dr. refused to give it to her. I could be

> wrong, out here who knows. But check this one out. from Ohio.

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

> year and a half now...I believe my body is pretty used to having it...when I

> stop taking it...such as I have for the past week (just downright tired of

> taking it)....I flare...not horribly, but I flare....I had to stop taking it

> this week due to some tests I am taking...BUT....after not taking it for a

You need to taper gradually off prednisone - it can be really dangerous to

just stop taking it. Your adrenal gland won't be functioning correctly due

to the prednisone and it needs time to adjust to making its own natural

cortisol again. Most doctors recommend tapering off by 1mg per month. Or

some of the group use an alternating method of current dose one day, half

a mg less the next day and keep this up until you are comfortable on the

half mg lower. Then alternate down by another half mg. etc.

Chris.

[Guest guest]

Carol,

" Benefits " was a negative comment to include:

cataracts

glandular damage and/or destruction

organ damage

skeletal damage

baldness (OK - it's not a biggy but my head gets cold!)

Some of these may reduce, others do not, as follows

cataracts permanent

glandular destruction permanent

glandular damage may be reversible

organ damage may be reversible

skeletal damage may be reversible

baldness (well - mine doesn't seem to be going

away!)

For a full treatment on the downside of Pred, consult a PDR (Physicians

Desk Reference). Remember, Pred can have significant helpful results. It

is generally the long-term and/or high-dose use of Pred that causes

severe issues such as we see with our diseases.

A good bone regeneration supplement is Metagenics/Ethical Nutrients

brand, product: Bone Builder. It is cold-processed microcrystalline

hydroxyappetite, i.e., real bone. Because of the way it is made by the

mfg (bottled under the names above) the body takes it straight to bone

mass immediately, as opposed to calcium and or calcium-magnesium

supplements which must combine with a number of other constituents to me

made into " bone. " The Metagenics label is sold by physicians, Ethical

Nutrients is the public label.

Nothing helps/repairs the cataracts.

NF makes some stuff that will help rebuild the adrenal cortex if it has

not been too badly damaged. If it is damaged badly you may have to take

a Rx drug supplement for the remainder of your life. Can't live without

the adrenal goodies.

Baldness - wear a hat.

HTH

Regards,

Geoff

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org nonprofit Herbals, Homeopathics & Supplements

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money from travel!

http://www.800-800-cruise.com 100,000+ travel deals in real-time

Re: rheumatic Getting Off Prednisone

> What are the long term benefits of prednisone? I know that

osteoporosis

> doesn't go away, but don't the other side effects leave when you lower

the

> dose or get off of it altogether?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Carol

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Gang! Geoff Crenshaw here.

Mark & Tony,

Pred is an important, but very dangerous drug. The general consensus is

that once you hit 5-7mg your body stops producing its own cortisol all

together. The numbers are inexact as every person is different, some say

this starts at 3, others at 8, but the point remains. Put enough of an

artificial substitute in, and the body compensates by halting production

of the real thing.

Try this routine... (- Maybe we should post this. I've written it

out several times over the last few years but sure enough I'm going to

forget something one of these days.) There are other routines which do

not stretch-pulse (see below) and which remain " at level " for longer

periods. You may need to " blend " the routines, depending on your own

situation. Pay attention to your own body and the " feedback " it gives

you.

Here it goes:

ASSUMPTIONS:

Starting Dose 10mg 1/x day (start at your point in the routine,

e.g., 7mg is STEP 4)

Relatively " clean " diet (i.e., no caffeine, other stimulants, rec

drugs)

Relatively " clean " lifestyle (i.e., nonsmoking, no alcohol at this

time)

NOTATIONS:

Dietary issues such as caffeine, soda, diet soda, excessive sugar,

etc., put a " load " on the body system. If present, all times

mentioned will probably need to be extended

Lifestyle issues such as smoking and drinking do the same. There are

also drug-specific issues with alcohol, amphetamines, etc. Involve

a physician with frequent (at least 1/x wk) checkups if this is an

issue.

Prednisone is available in 1mg tablets. You will need as low-dose

tablets as you can get to simplify the logistics of this routine.

If at anytime during the routine you do not stabilize, go back ONE

step

and remain there until stable. This routine must be done slowly.

This is not a matter of will power nor personal achievement. It is a

function of weaning a glandular system from a man-made substance

that causes it to cease production of it's own product and putting

that complete glandular system back " on line. "

At STEP 11 the clock will become an issue. Do not dose by " clock

edict. "

If you are comfortable stretching further/faster than listed, do.

But do NOT do it if you are UNcomfortable. DIScomfort is a very

important sign. Pay attention to it, slow down the stretches if

needed, pause at a level for a time if needed, etc.

PREPARATION:

Ensure you are STABLE. Stability is the key to making this routine

work and weaning off of Pred. If you are enjoying an unclean diet, use

this time to address that as well. Increase your intake of " pure " water,

i.e., filtered, reverse-osmosis generated, bottled, etc., until urine is

extremely light or near clear. Temporarily restrict (read: remove) beef

and red meats from diet and any food that leaves a sour or otherwise odd

taste or feeling in your mouth. Also, if you fatigue a half hour or so

after eating any food, restrict that as well. Common suspects include

yeast-risen breads, wheat, milk & dairy products, and sugars such as

candies. If you are suffering allergies, try to filter your air as well

(portable HEPA filters are helpful for this.)

The concept here is to reduce the " overhead " on the body system.

Doing these things will enhance both the speed and extent of your

success. They may help; They may not be necessary; They are beneficial,

regardless.

ROUTINE:

1. Take your routine dose of Pred (Prednisone) daily for two weeks.

Make sure you are stable.

>> TAKE YOUR PRED AT THE SAME TIME EVERY DAY UNTIL STEP 11

IF YOU CANNOT GET TO STEP 11 THIS WAY, READ 11-18 AND

START USING THE STRETCH METHOD TO WORK YOUR WAY DOWN <<

2. After two weeks, reduce your dose by 1mg. You are now at 9mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

3. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1 mg. You are now at 8mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

4. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1 mg. You are now at 7mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

5. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1 mg. You are now at 6mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

6. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1 mg. You are now at 5mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

NOTICE: CHANGE IN DROP QUANTITY!!

7. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1/2 mg. You are now at

4-1/2mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

8. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1/2 mg. You are now at 4mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

9. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1/2 mg. You are now at

3-1/2mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

10. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1/2 mg. You are now at 3mg.

Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

new dose the discomfort settles down.

NOTICE: CHANGE IN DROP QUANTITY!!

11. Things start to get dicey from here on out. At about 3mg, +/-,

your body has to start producing its own corticosteroids. This is where

you start " stretching " or " pulsing " .

Stay at 3mg until stable for 7-10 days. Now the routine

changes...

Start stretching the periods between doses. If you normally take

your Pred at 9:00 am, move it off to 10:00 am on day 1, then 12:00 noon

on day two, then 3:00 pm on day four, adding an additional hour to the

between-dose periods every day or couple of days.

Do NOT get in a hurry. DO write things down. It will be very

hard to keep track and see where you are and what is working if you

don't. Try also to keep a diary of your foods eaten. You may find a

correlation to a particular foodstuff with pain and if so, be able to

limit or eliminate that foodstuff from your diet for the time being.

By now your doseage intervals should be looking something like

this:

Hours: 24 / 25 / 26 / 27/ 28 / 29 / 30

There are two concepts at work here:

1. Stretch the intervals between doses out to such an extent

that you slip into the next quantity drop without a major change.

Example - 3mg at 24 hr doses is roughly .1250mg/hr. Obviously

there are high/low blood levels along the way but this gives a rough

starting point. 2-1/2 mg is .1042/hr.

2. Pulsing the adrenal gland's workload so that it exercises /

sleeps / exercises / sleeps / exercises, etc. It has been " off-work " a

long time and will take a good deal of " exercise " to get back in shape.

Stretching out the length of time between doses has the effect of

dropping the dose while still " pulsing " the adrenal gland with.

Example - Within minutes after the Pred hits the bloodstream,

the adrenal gland will slow or stop production of your own

cotricosteroids. As the Pred is processed out of the bloodstream, the

adrenal gland is forced to start coming " back on line. "

STEP 12. You are at 3mg, you have stretched your doses out to 30

hrs. drop your dose 1/2 mg to 2-1/2 but go back to taking your Pred

every day at the same time, e.g., 9:00 am daily.

After 7-10 days of STABILITY, start stretching the periods

between doses again, as in Step 11. If you normally take your Pred at

9:00 am, move it off to 10:00 am on day 1, then 12:00 noon on day two,

etc., until you are get to 30 hrs.

STEP 13. Drop to 2mg. STAY there until you are stable for 7-10 days.

Then start stretching the dosing periods out again until you hot 32 hrs

this time. As you see, you are very, very slowly working your way both

DOWN and OUT on your dosing. 32 hrs matches the next drop.

STEP 14. Once you hit 32 hrs between doses, drop to 1-1/2mg but go

back to taking your dose at the same time every day, i.e., 9:00 am (or

whatever time it is you prefer)

STAY there until you are stable for 7-10 days. Then start

stretching the dosing periods out again until you hit 36 hrs this time.

As you see, you are very, very slowly working your way both DOWN and OUT

on your dosing. 36 hrs matches the next drop.

STEP 15. Once you hit 36 hrs between doses, drop to 1mg. At 1mg your

adrenal cortex is definately working. Here it is working / resting /

working / resting, where before it was asleep -- working / sleeping /

working / sleeping. There has been a change but you must be very

careful. STAY here until you are stable for 7-14 days. Notice the

stability length has changed. If you are Up and Down, you are not

stable. Stability is the key to finding the opportunity to exercise the

adrenals more.

Start stretching your dosing periods out again until you hit

32 hrs this time. As you see, you are very, very slowly working your way

both DOWN and OUT on your dosing. 32 hrs matches the next drop.

STEP 16. Once you hit 32 hrs between doses, drop to 3/4mg but go

back to taking your dose at the same time every day, i.e., 9:00 am, or

whatever. STAY here until you are stable for 7-14 days.

CRITICAL NOTE:Henceforth, changes will be in 1/4mg increments. You

will need no larger than 1mg tablets of Prednisone and a pill cutter

(Long's, Payless, WalMart, etc.) will be a great benefit.

After you are stable 7-14 days, start stretching your dosing

periods out again until you hit 36 hrs this time. As you see, you are

very, very slowly working your way both DOWN and OUT on your dosing. 36

hrs matches the next drop.

STEP 17. Once you hit 36 hrs between doses, drop to 1/2mg but go

back to taking your dose at the same time every day, i.e., 9:00 am, or

whatever. STAY here until you are stable for 7-14 days.

After you are stable 7-14 days, start stretching your dosing

periods out again until you hit 48 hrs this time. As you see, you are

very, very slowly working your way both DOWN and OUT on your dosing. 48

hrs matches the next drop.

STEP 18. Once you hit 48 hrs between doses, drop to 1/4mg but go

back to taking your dose at the same time every day, i.e., 9:00 am, or

whatever. STAY here until you are stable for 7-14 days. After that,

start the stretching routine again. There won't be any other drops.

Continue stretches until you need some pain relief. Do not dose by

" clock edict. " Your next step is Pred-free.

The group is here to encourage, support and edify. If you need help,

just ask.

HTH

Regards,

Geoff

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org nonprofit Herbals, Homeopathics & Supplements

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money from travel!

http://www.800-800-cruise.com 100,000+ travel deals in real-time

[Guest guest]

Geoff,

I'd like some info on getting off the prednisone. I'm down from 7mg to 4 mg

since starting the Minocin but would like some advice on going lower. I

split the 4mg into 2 doses of 2mg morning and night. Any suggestions? I'm

not familiar with the " pulsed reduction " method. BTW I also take 200mg of

Celebrex morning and night, along with the prednisone.

Thanks for your help!

RA 1/00 AP 3/00

4mg prednisone

400mg Celebrex

200mg Minocin MWF, 900mg IV Clindy every 2 weeks

Geoff wrote:

> Hi Criss! Geoff Crenshaw here.

>

> On 21 Oct 00 you wrote:

>

> >> I was able to reduce my prednisone from 10 mg./day

> to 7 mg./day - a major victory for me. Unfortunately, I

> had to go off of it because of surgery (knee replacement)

> which caused me to flare. I'm back up on prednisone but

> have hopes that the RA Spes will help me get this flare

> back under control and get weaned off the prednisone. <<

>

> I don't know how much Pred you're on or how long you've been on it. I

> was on 85mg/day and on Pred for a few years. I've been off of it for

> quite along time now, although I am still " enjoying the benefits " of

> long-term exposure and they will never go away. It is an experience not

> to be forgotten.

>

> There are a couple of " known good " methods for getting off of Pred which

> are quite different than what Doctors usually recommend as they do not

> normally have any personal subjective experience to draw upon. These

> methods may be slower but tend to be much easier on the body.

>

> At 7mg you may still be totally dependent on artificial cortisol as

> opposed to that produced naturally by your adrenal cortex. This is a

> very bad state of affairs in that the adrenal gland en toto is effected

> and physically shrinks. Remaining in this state long enough risks total

> & irreparable shut down of the adrenal gland - a deadly serious state of

> affairs. Literally.

>

> If you are having trouble getting off Pred we (many of us in the group)

> have extensive experience in the group and can recommend a " pulsed

> reduction " method. You may find it is very hard for you once you get

> down to 3mg. That is where this sort of method truly pays off. If you

> need help, just ask. You're not alone in this.

>

> Regards,

> Geoff

>

> How can you have hope?

> Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

> EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

>

> http://www.healingyou.org nonprofit Herbals, Homeopathics & Supplements

>

> http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money from travel!

> http://www.800-800-cruise.com 100,000+ travel deals in real-time

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

[Guest guest]

Sorry everyone, I sent this before I had made it through all the email!! I have

the info now that Geoff posted earlier.

Thanks!

wrote:

> Geoff,

>

> I'd like some info on getting off the prednisone. I'm down from 7mg to 4 mg

> since starting the Minocin but would like some advice on going lower. I

> split the 4mg into 2 doses of 2mg morning and night. Any suggestions? I'm

> not familiar with the " pulsed reduction " method. BTW I also take 200mg of

> Celebrex morning and night, along with the prednisone.

>

> Thanks for your help!

>

> RA 1/00 AP 3/00

> 4mg prednisone

> 400mg Celebrex

> 200mg Minocin MWF, 900mg IV Clindy every 2 weeks

>

> Geoff wrote:

>

> > Hi Criss! Geoff Crenshaw here.

> >

> > On 21 Oct 00 you wrote:

> >

> > >> I was able to reduce my prednisone from 10 mg./day

> > to 7 mg./day - a major victory for me. Unfortunately, I

> > had to go off of it because of surgery (knee replacement)

> > which caused me to flare. I'm back up on prednisone but

> > have hopes that the RA Spes will help me get this flare

> > back under control and get weaned off the prednisone. <<

> >

> > I don't know how much Pred you're on or how long you've been on it. I

> > was on 85mg/day and on Pred for a few years. I've been off of it for

> > quite along time now, although I am still " enjoying the benefits " of

> > long-term exposure and they will never go away. It is an experience not

> > to be forgotten.

> >

> > There are a couple of " known good " methods for getting off of Pred which

> > are quite different than what Doctors usually recommend as they do not

> > normally have any personal subjective experience to draw upon. These

> > methods may be slower but tend to be much easier on the body.

> >

> > At 7mg you may still be totally dependent on artificial cortisol as

> > opposed to that produced naturally by your adrenal cortex. This is a

> > very bad state of affairs in that the adrenal gland en toto is effected

> > and physically shrinks. Remaining in this state long enough risks total

> > & irreparable shut down of the adrenal gland - a deadly serious state of

> > affairs. Literally.

> >

> > If you are having trouble getting off Pred we (many of us in the group)

> > have extensive experience in the group and can recommend a " pulsed

> > reduction " method. You may find it is very hard for you once you get

> > down to 3mg. That is where this sort of method truly pays off. If you

> > need help, just ask. You're not alone in this.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Geoff

> >

> > How can you have hope?

> > Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

> > EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

> >

> > http://www.healingyou.org nonprofit Herbals, Homeopathics & Supplements

> >

> > http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money from travel!

> > http://www.800-800-cruise.com 100,000+ travel deals in real-time

> >

> >

> > To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

[Guest guest]

I'll post Geoff's article in the " interesting messages from group mail "

(whatever

I called the section) at the weekend.

Chris.

>> Dear Geoff,

>> I have been reading your postings this week with interest and was

>> particularly concerned with the one on reducing prednisone. Every

>> time I get below 15 mg my adrenals give out. Dr. Armstrong has had

>> me on pregnenolone to help the weaning process but after six months it

>> still has no effect. Excuse my ignorance but where do I find the list

>> archive that you speak of?

>> Four years of this craziness is enough.

>> Thank you,

>> Lee-Anne Assaad.

>

>Lee-Anne,

>

>First let's start with some basics: The adrenals effectively cease

>production of natural corticosteroids at between 5-7 mg. The " exact "

>figure is not known and would be variable anyway, but Dr.'s generally

>agree 5-7 is the most likely place, although some say it starts as lows

>as 3 and others as high as 8.

>

>After a long period of time with excessive corticosteroids in the body,

>the adrenal cortex has not only ceased production but as with ALL body

>parts that are not used, it begins to shrivel up and die. The shriveling

>is gradual, the death of that section of the adrenals even more so. For

>the time being there is no percentage in being overly concerned with

>that other than understanding that it occurs.

>

>At 15 mg, your adrenal cortex is still sidelined, it is not even in the

>game. So what you have at that point is generalized reactivity and

>compensation due to the corticosteroids and perhaps salt/fluid

>imbalances in addition to any extra inflammatory processes resulting

>from the disease(s).

>

>Since you asked about checking the archives and searching, I am assuming

>it was either (a) unproductive or ( overly difficult. Either way, the

>information was unavailable. In light of that, here it is once

>again,following my sig. line.

>

>Regards, -----------------------

>Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

> -----------------------

>How can you have hope?

>Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

> EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

>

>http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

>http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money & travel!

>http://www.800-800-cruise.com/ Over a MILLION travel deals!

>

>

>

>========== GETTING OFF OF PREDNISONE ========

>

>Hi Gang! Geoff Crenshaw here.

>

>Pred is an important, but very dangerous drug. The general consensus is

>that once you hit 5-7mg your body stops producing its own cortisol all

>together. The numbers are inexact as every person is different, some say

>this starts at 3, others at 8, but the point remains. Put enough of an

>artificial substitute in, and the body compensates by halting production

>of the real thing.

>

>Try this routine... (- Maybe we should post this. I've written it

>out several times over the last few years but sure enough I'm going to

>forget something one of these days.) There are other routines which do

>not stretch-pulse (see below) and which remain " at level " for longer

>periods. You may need to " blend " the routines, depending on your own

>situation. Pay attention to your own body and the " feedback " it gives

>you.

>

>Here it goes:

>

>ASSUMPTIONS:

> Starting Dose 10mg 1/x day (start at your point in the routine,

> e.g., 7mg is STEP 4)

>

> Relatively " clean " diet (i.e., no caffeine, other stimulants, rec.

> drugs)

>

> Relatively " clean " lifestyle (i.e., nonsmoking, no alcohol at this

> time)

>

>NOTATIONS:

> Dietary issues such as caffeine, soda, diet soda, excessive sugar,

> etc., put a " load " on the body system. If present, all times

> mentioned will probably need to be extended

>

> Lifestyle issues such as smoking and drinking do the same. There are

> also drug-specific issues with alcohol, amphetamines, etc. Involve

> a physician with frequent (at least 1/x wk) checkups if this is an

> issue.

>

> Prednisone is available in 1mg tablets. You will need as low-dose

> tablets as you can get to simplify the logistics of this routine.

>

> If at anytime during the routine you do not stabilize, go back ONE

> Step and remain there until stable. This routine must be done

> slowly. This is not a matter of will power nor personal achievement.

> It is a function of weaning a glandular system from a man-made

> substance that causes it to cease production of it's own product and

> putting that complete glandular system back " on line. "

>

> At STEP 11 the clock will become an issue. Do not dose by " clock

> edict. " If you are comfortable stretching further/faster than

> listed, do. But do NOT do it if you are UNcomfortable. DIScomfort

> is a very important sign. Pay attention to it, slow down the

> stretches if needed, pause at a level for a time if needed, etc.

>

>PREPARATION:

> Ensure you are STABLE. Stability is the key to making this routine

>work and weaning off of Pred. If you are enjoying an unclean diet, use

>this time to address that as well. Increase your intake of " pure " water,

>i.e., filtered, reverse-osmosis generated, bottled, etc., until urine is

>extremely light or near clear. Temporarily restrict (read: remove) beef

>and red meats from diet and any food that leaves a sour or otherwise odd

>taste or feeling in your mouth. Also, if you fatigue a half hour or so

>after eating any food, restrict that as well. Common suspects include

>yeast-risen breads, wheat, milk & dairy products, and sugars such as

>candies. If you are suffering allergies, try to filter your air as well

>(portable HEPA filters are helpful for this.)

>

> The concept here is to reduce the " overhead " on the body system.

>Doing these things will enhance both the speed and extent of your

>success. They may help; They may not be necessary; They are beneficial,

>regardless.

>

>ROUTINE:

> 1. Take your routine dose of Pred (Prednisone) daily for two weeks.

>Make sure you are stable.

>

> >> TAKE YOUR PRED AT THE SAME TIME EVERY DAY UNTIL STEP 11

> IF YOU CANNOT GET TO STEP 11 THIS WAY, READ 11-18 AND

> START USING THE STRETCH METHOD TO WORK YOUR WAY DOWN <<

>

> 2. After two weeks, reduce your dose by 1mg. You are now at 9mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> 3. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1 mg. You are now at 8mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> 4. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1 mg. You are now at 7mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> 5. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1 mg. You are now at 6mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> 6. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1 mg. You are now at 5mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> NOTICE: CHANGE IN DROP QUANTITY!!

>

> 7. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1/2 mg. You are now at

>4-1/2mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> 8. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1/2 mg. You are now at 4mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> 9. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1/2 mg. You are now at

>3-1/2mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> 10. After 7-10 days of STABILITY, drop 1/2 mg. You are now at 3mg.

> Stay there 7-10 days AFTER you stabilize, assuming that within 3

>days after the drop you feel some discomfort and that remaining at the

>new dose the discomfort settles down.

>

> NOTICE: CHANGE IN DROP QUANTITY!!

>

> 11. Things start to get dicey from here on out. At about 3mg, +/-,

>your body has to start producing its own corticosteroids. This is where

>you start " stretching " or " pulsing " .

> Stay at 3mg until stable for 7-10 days. Now the routine

>changes...

> Start stretching the periods between doses. If you normally take

>your Pred at 9:00 am, move it off to 10:00 am on day 1, then 12:00 noon

>on day two, then 3:00 p.m. on day four, adding an additional hour to the

>between-dose periods every day or couple of days.

> Do NOT get in a hurry. DO write things down. It will be very

>hard to keep track and see where you are and what is working if you

>don't. Try also to keep a diary of your foods eaten. You may find a

>correlation to a particular foodstuff with pain and if so, be able to

>limit or eliminate that foodstuff from your diet for the time being.

> By now your dosage intervals should be looking something like

>this:

> Hours: 24 / 25 / 26 / 27/ 28 / 29 / 30

>

> There are two concepts at work here:

> 1. Stretch the intervals between doses out to such an extent

>that you slip into the next quantity drop without a major change.

>

> Example - 3mg at 24 hr doses is roughly .1250mg/hr. Obviously

>there are high/low blood levels along the way but this gives a rough

>starting point. 2-1/2 mg is .1042/hr.

>

> 2. Pulsing the adrenal gland's workload so that it exercises /

>sleeps / exercises / sleeps / exercises, etc. It has been " off-work " a

>long time and will take a good deal of " exercise " to get back in shape.

>Stretching out the length of time between doses has the effect of

>dropping the dose while still " pulsing " the adrenal gland with.

>

> Example - Within minutes after the Pred hits the bloodstream,

>the adrenal gland will slow or stop production of your own

>cotricosteroids. As the Pred is processed out of the bloodstream, the

>adrenal gland is forced to start coming " back on line. "

>

> STEP 12. You are at 3mg, you have stretched your doses out to 30

>hrs. drop your dose 1/2 mg to 2-1/2 but go back to taking your Pred

>every day at the same time, e.g., 9:00 am daily.

>

> After 7-10 days of STABILITY, start stretching the periods

>between doses again, as in Step 11. If you normally take your Pred at

>9:00 am, move it off to 10:00 am on day 1, then 12:00 noon on day two,

>etc., until you are get to 30 hrs.

>

> STEP 13. Drop to 2mg. STAY there until you are stable for 7-10 days.

>Then start stretching the dosing periods out again until you hot 32 hrs

>this time. As you see, you are very, very slowly working your way both

>DOWN and OUT on your dosing. 32 hrs matches the next drop.

>

> STEP 14. Once you hit 32 hrs between doses, drop to 1-1/2mg but go

>back to taking your dose at the same time every day, i.e., 9:00 am (or

>whatever time it is you prefer)

>

> STAY there until you are stable for 7-10 days. Then start

>stretching the dosing periods out again until you hit 36 hrs this time.

>As you see, you are very, very slowly working your way both DOWN and OUT

>on your dosing. 36 hrs matches the next drop.

>

> STEP 15. Once you hit 36 hrs between doses, drop to 1mg. At 1mg your

>adrenal cortex is definitely working. Here it is working / resting /

>working / resting, where before it was asleep -- working / sleeping /

>working / sleeping. There has been a change but you must be very

>careful. STAY here until you are stable for 7-14 days. Notice the

>stability length has changed. If you are Up and Down, you are not

>stable. Stability is the key to finding the opportunity to exercise the

>adrenals more.

>

> Start stretching your dosing periods out again until you hit

>32 hrs this time. As you see, you are very, very slowly working your way

>both DOWN and OUT on your dosing. 32 hrs matches the next drop.

>

> STEP 16. Once you hit 32 hrs between doses, drop to 3/4mg but go

>back to taking your dose at the same time every day, i.e., 9:00 am, or

>whatever. STAY here until you are stable for 7-14 days.

>

> CRITICAL NOTE:Henceforth, changes will be in 1/4mg increments. You

>will need no larger than 1mg tablets of Prednisone and a pill cutter

>(Long's, Payless, WalMart, etc.) will be a great benefit.

>

> After you are stable 7-14 days, start stretching your dosing

>periods out again until you hit 36 hrs this time. As you see, you are

>very, very slowly working your way both DOWN and OUT on your dosing. 36

>hrs matches the next drop.

>

> STEP 17. Once you hit 36 hrs between doses, drop to 1/2mg but go

>back to taking your dose at the same time every day, i.e., 9:00 am, or

>whatever. STAY here until you are stable for 7-14 days.

>

> After you are stable 7-14 days, start stretching your dosing

>periods out again until you hit 48 hrs this time. As you see, you are

>very, very slowly working your way both DOWN and OUT on your dosing. 48

>hrs matches the next drop.

>

> STEP 18. Once you hit 48 hrs between doses, drop to 1/4mg but go

>back to taking your dose at the same time every day, i.e., 9:00 am, or

>whatever. STAY here until you are stable for 7-14 days. After that,

>start the stretching routine again. There won't be any other drops.

>Continue stretches until you need some pain relief. Do not dose by

> " clock edict. " Your next step is Pred-free.

>

>The group is here to encourage, support and edify. If you need help,

>just ask.

>

>HTH

>

>

>

>

>To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi group

I have been trying to wean off predisone without much success. I can get to about 15 mg/pr day and then I have problems . I will be using the protocol Geoff printed to do this weaning once again. Is there anything i.e. herb, vitamins etc that I can take to nourish the adrenals as I wean off the pred?

Thanks,

mj

[Guest guest]

Pantothenic Acid may help...it is said to stimulate the body's production of natural steroids...you can also try Omega 3's Fish Oil or Flax Seed oil or Ginger as these are natural anti-inflamatories...

Tony

Re: rheumatic Getting off Prednisone

Hi group I have been trying to wean off predisone without much success. I can get to about 15 mg/pr day and then I have problems . I will be using the protocol Geoff printed to do this weaning once again. Is there anything i.e. herb, vitamins etc that I can take to nourish the adrenals as I wean off the pred? Thanks, mj To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

[Guest guest]

Hi MJ! Geoff Crenshaw here.

Re: rheumatic Getting off Prednisone

> I have been trying to wean off predisone without much success. I can

> get to about 15 mg/pr day and then I have problems . I will be using

> the protocol Geoff printed to do this weaning once again. Is there

> anything i.e. herb, vitamins etc that I can take to nourish the

> adrenals as I wean off the pred?

Yes:

Systemic Formulas Bio-Command synergistic combinations in this order:

Anti-Infective + Adrenal

Corrector + Adrenal

Activator + Adrenal

Builder + Adrenal

Stabilizer + Adrenal

If your mannerisms would best be described as " fine " : 1 capsule Adrenal,

1 to 2 times per day, best taken mid-morning & mid-afternoon.

If your mannerisms would best be described as " coarse " : 2 capsules

Adrenal in the same way.

Average length of program: 3-5 months, than as-needed. In your case if

you follow the above, it will be about a 5 month program as each

" BioCommand " formula lasts about a month or so (1 bottle of each only.)

The BioCommands work with the Adrenal formula continuously throughout

the series. This may be used with these at the same time. So if you have

issues with any of these, it is a good idea to combine the regimen into

one series, e.g., corrector+adrenal+thyroid+thymus:

Pituitary

Thyroid

Thymus

Kidney (or) Kidney Stabilizer (not both)

Dosages are different for each of the BioFunctions, e.g., Adrenal &

Thyroid, ranging from 1-2 capsules and 1-3 times a day for each. Data on

file if needed.

To stop an acid pH cycle take 1 Adrenal with 2 Anti-Neuro at bedtime.

RA Spes to aid with the inflammatory response, help coerce the adrenal

cortex back into function and stabilize off the Prednisone. These are

all available through HealingYou.

If you need any help, just ask.

HTH

Regards, -----------------------

Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money & travel!

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/ Over a MILLION travel deals!

[Guest guest]

Hi-

Maybe the brain fog is up again, but...what would a fine mannerism be? Or a

coarse?

Thanks,

> Hi MJ! Geoff Crenshaw here.

>

>

> If your mannerisms would best be described as " fine " : 1 capsule Adrenal,

> 1 to 2 times per day, best taken mid-morning & mid-afternoon.

>

> If your mannerisms would best be described as " coarse " : 2 capsules

> Adrenal in the same way.

>

[Guest guest]

You took the words from my mouth!

Geoff----What is a mannerism?

What are "fine" and "coarse" mannersims?

MJ

[Guest guest]

Hi again Geoff!

I went to the Healingyou website to get information about the ingredients of the formulas you recommended. I couldn't find anything at the site. Where can I get this info?

Also I think you are recommending that I use the Systemic Formulas listed in sequence, not together? Is that correct?

Thanks so much for your help.

MJ

[Guest guest]

Hi MJ! Geoff Crenshaw here.

Re: rheumatic Getting off Prednisone

> I went to the Healingyou website to get information about the

> ingredients of the formulas you recommended. I couldn't find anything

> at the site. Where can I get this info?

HealingYou does not have an exhaustive brief on each of the items it has

available. There are briefs on a couple of them that have been of

special interest to the group, RA Spes, PC Spes and some others. Other

items are awaiting funding to handle the keyboarding tasks, including

the Systemic Formulas data.

> Also I think you are recommending that I use the Systemic Formulas

> listed in sequence, not together? Is that correct?

Sequential IN combination as shown, e.g.,

Assume you need to address your adrenals AND your thymus.

You would take them thusly:

Anti-Infective + Adrenal + Thymus (together until AI is gone)

then...

Corrector + Adrenal + Thymus (together until Corrector is gone)

then...

Activator + Adrenal + Thymus (until Activator is gone, etc.)

Builder + Adrenal + Thymus

Stabilizer + Adrenal + Thymus

These formulas work syngerstically, iow, they work better in combination

than by themselves.

HTH

(iow = in other words, btw = by the way, hth = hope this helps)

Regards, -----------------------

Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money & travel!

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/ Over a MILLION travel deals!

[Guest guest]

Hi ! Geoff Crenshaw here.

Re: rheumatic Getting off Prednisone

> Hi-

> Maybe the brain fog is up again, but...what would a fine mannerism

> be? Or a coarse?

FINE:

Think of a genteel lady, polite, constrained, attentive to etiquette,

smooth and flowing in motion of body, accommodating, understanding,

supportive

COARSE:

Think of a beer swilling, argumentative, rough woman that walks like a

football player, holds a spoon in her fist and prides herself in being

able to outdo a man at anything, competitive, aggressive

In this case fine & coarse are not meant as complimentary nor derogatory

terms, but as understanding the overall individual as influenced by a

combination of their individual emotional, psychological and physical

attributes 'most' of the time.

Remember, everyone is or can be at some time, fine, coarse or both. This

is based on the " usual and customary mannerisms without undue stress or

influence. "

HTH

Regards, -----------------------

Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money & travel!

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/ Over a MILLION travel deals!

[Guest guest]

Hi June - I am truly sorry that you felt that I had attacked your by my post. That sure wasn't my intent. I read over again what I wrote and while I really don't want to attack you ( or anyone else) I have to stick by my guns - telling what supplements have worked for you and telling others where to buy them just isn't "selling" in my book. Sometime ago I had great success with MSM and wrote on here to share that information with others. If anyone had asked where I bought it and how much I took - I would have answered. Come to think of it we've had many on here who have told about noni juice, colostrum, probiotics - (by brand name), olive leaf and where to buy the good (Coat's) aloe vera. I've seen these all recommended by various members of this group -

R Garden Products, East Park Research, Nutrition Now, Willner's Pharmacy, Nutri West and Natren are a few that come to mind. We also have had some "homemade concoction" recipes.

Selling? I don't think so.....just sharing information back and forth. And yes, I remember and - both of them valuable (as are you) to this group - and they are missed. I had a great friendship with . Perhaps they left while I was out of the country for a short early last spring. I didn't know why they left - but to me it would be just silly to leave this group which is so valuable to me because I thought one person might be "selling" something. Boy....that would teach him a lesson, wouldn't it? So, June, could we just declare a truce on this subject and agree to disagree and then both move on to bigger and better subjects. I'm more than willing

and I do hope you accept my apology that I didn't mean to hurt you. Judy (deejay)

Re: rheumatic Getting off Prednisone

Hello Judy I dont really know you and I certainly dont have a problem with helping you out here ..... And I do feel you are really notreading what I saying and really attacking me unfairly Time, deejay@... writes:

.. June stated that good members had left this forum because of Geoff's selling. I don't believe that is the case. and ........left do you remember them? If you are an old member you should. Maybe you were not active when they left...... They contributed a lot to this group and left because of the selling they felt was going on and I also have recieved a number of emails from members of this group.. Im not making this up and I am speaking for other members who for whatever the reason choose not to voice this openly but do so privately to me.... and below is the othe item that you appear to have missed? In a message dated 3/19/2001 1:39:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, deejay@... writes:

? Never, ever have I felt that Geoff was selling this product. This is a direct prescription and at the end States that they can be bought through ...... Im not making this up I know what I read and this is what I reacted too.. Look My post was stated over the wording of what Geoff was phrasing and has been phrasing his comments..... Some of his advice at the time that I posted could harm someone who inadvertantly took it the way he was posting and YES he was selling his products in those postings as what someone could use (please see below).. it was those posts I reacted to Telling a new member who is coming off of prednisone to take these products that you just happen to sell.....is not really helping the person Herbs are drugs too and all you need is ONE person who trusts what you say to have a serious reaction to these drugs(herbs)and they can be seriously hurt by this. In a message dated 3/17/2001 5:21:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, gbcren@... writes:

Systemic Formulas Bio-Command synergistic combinations in this order: Anti-Infective + Adrenal Corrector + Adrenal Activator + Adrenal Builder + Adrenal Stabilizer + Adrenal If your mannerisms would best be described as "fine": 1 capsule Adrenal, 1 to 2 times per day, best taken mid-morning & mid-afternoon.. If your mannerisms would best be described as "coarse": 2 capsules Adrenal in the same way.. Average length of program: 3-5 months, than as-needed. In your case if you follow the above, it will be about a 5 month program as each "BioCommand" formula lasts about a month or so (1 bottle of each only.) The BioCommands work with the Adrenal formula continuously throughout the series. This may be used with these at the same time. So if you have issues with any of these, it is a good idea to combine the regimen into one series, e.g., corrector+adrenal+thyroid+thymus: Pituitary Thyroid Thymus Kidney (or) Kidney Stabilizer (not both) Dosages are different for each of the BioFunctions, e.g., Adrenal & Thyroid, ranging from 1-2 capsules and 1-3 times a day for each. Data on file if needed.. To stop an acid pH cycle take 1 Adrenal with 2 Anti-Neuro at bedtime.. RA Spes to aid with the inflammatory response, help coerce the adrenal cortex back into function and stabilize off the Prednisone. These are all available through HealingYou..

[Guest guest]

Hi June! Geoff Crenshaw here - again.

This data you re-iterated:

> Systemic Formulas Bio-Command synergistic combinations in this

> order:

> Anti-Infective + Adrenal

> Corrector + Adrenal

> Activator + Adrenal

> Builder + Adrenal

> Stabilizer + Adrenal

Comes from the printed materials of Systemic Formulas, a professional

grade supplement providor to Physicians and ND's, not commonly found in

your neighborhood WalMart, GenWhat's-it, or health food stores.

It was posted in direct response to a posted request about what

supplements one might use in order to strengthen the adrenals, etc.,

during the time of weaning off Prednisone - a very touchy and

potentially dangerous process indeed.

I merely made the effort to keyboard it. I shared it with the group that

others in the same fix might benefit from it as well.

Of interest is the fact that I have been asked what I did to help my

adrenals and what I and/or the group at large might know of what can be

done to help the adrenals, many, many times. This is a common concern

for almost all of us due to the prevelance of corticosteroid

prescriptions.

I have posted the info above off and on over the last several years in a

variety of forms, but never seem to have it handy when asked and thus

have to go scavanging about to find it. The last time it took me five

months to come up with it! This time, it was available when needed and

hopefully will continue to be in the future.

Worse than that, IN THE PAST it has been very difficult to find these

products if one did want to use them.

With the formation of http://www.healingyou.org, a determination was

made to make available, either by stocking or by special order, products

that are known to be effective in helping people with serious health

issues.

We're not talking drop a couple of inches for that

new bikini here, nor 'buff up' for the summer.

The purpose of this nonprofit is to make available natural non-Rx

substances that have been proven to help people.

The pointer on product availability was for the convenience for the

poster, that is all. It is much more helpful to say, " Try #31ga, full

data, here's a link. " than to say, " Try #31Ga - you're on your own as to

where to find it, who makes it, what it is or how to use it, but it

worked for me. "

Again, IF YOU ARE AT ALL INTERESTED, please make the very, very minor

effort of going to http://www.healingyou.org, clicking [About] on the

bottom menu and reading the page. It doesn't take more than a few

moments, it's quite brief.

As to HYO's featuring the products: www.healingyou.org does not " just

happen " to feature ANYTHING. Only products which are KNOWN to be

effective are featured, and only a very precious few can actually be

shelved due to funding. Once again, I point you to the [About] link on

the bottom menu at http://www.healingyou.org.

Now, lest your comments frighten off every would-be poster of a recipe

or supplement, or worse than that -- every would-be poster of:

" THE PROTOCOL, "

these are OTC products, not Rx meds. Recommending OTC products and/or

keyboarding their use does not qualify as prescribing. If it did every

time some poor sap on this list posted, " Try grape seed extract - one a

day - get it at WalMart " the whole mess of us would be in a heap of

trouble. For that matter, neither does posting or publishing

recommendations for dosages, lest the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference)

would be illegal - at least in the US where the laws of prescription

protect the hegemony of our good friends in the medico-pharmaceuticals

industries.

Regards, -----------------------

Geoff ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

How can you have hope?

Get under the blood of the Passover Lamb.

EXO 12:7-3 / MAR 14:24 / REV 12:11

http://www.healingyou.org/ Nonprofit: Herbs, Homeopathics & supp's.

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/index-aff.html Make money & travel!

http://www.800-800-cruise.com/ Over a MILLION travel deals!