Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Personally, I steer clear of ANY FLAX. Bruce and I have had long conversations regarding flax and my dh and I have had negative results with clients using it. Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 --- In , " Evely " <je@h...> wrote: > according to Bruce Fife he says you should not eat flax raw but cooked... > once you cook it would be rancid and oxidize so I don't think I follow his > thinking > can anyone comment on this one? Interesting .... I've been grinding mine raw and putting it in a smoothie. But now that you mention this.....the tamoxfin and flax lignan comparison study used them cooked in a daily muffin. They did not seem concerned wih oil rancidity. (Of course it could be a poorly designed " study " ) I believe tradtionally they have been used as part of breads. Do you know what temperature deactivates the thio-cyanates? Does Fife give a referance on this? Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 --- In , " Evely " <je@h...> wrote: > according to Bruce Fife he says you should not eat flax raw but > cooked... once you cook it would be rancid and oxidize so I don't > think I follow his thinking can anyone comment on this one? From a quick Google search it appears to me that Bruce Fife is sloppy enough in his research that I wouldn't take his dire warning about raw flaxseed too seriously. From this document, http://www.anu.edu.au/BoZo/CCDN/protocols/ProtG.pdf I found the following: " Flax seed (linseed) contains the cyanide containing compounds linustatin, neolinustatin and linamarin as well as the enzyme linustatinase which catalyses the hydrolysis of these cyanogenic glucosides to liberate HCN. " Thiocyanate, the stuff that Bruce Fife claims is in flax, is in fact, the relatively harmless metabolite that results from ingesting the above referenced cyanogens. It should also be noted that there are cyanogens found in peach, bitter almond, apricot, plum, apple, and pear seeds as well as in some medicines. On a site for a company that sells flax I found a .PDF document that references various safety studies on flax consumption. One was done on volunteers eating 50g per day of raw flaxseed, and the researchers concluded that eating up to 50g per day is safe and may be nutritionally beneficial: http://www.flax.com/enreco/PDF/Safety_Studies.pdf " 8. Cunnane, S. C., Ganguli, S., Menard, C., Liede, A. C., Hamadeh, M. J., Chen, Z. Y., Wolever, T. M. S., & , D. J. A. (1993). High alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (linum usitatissimum): some nutritional properties in humans. Br J Nutr, 69 (2), 443-453. © format only 1996 Knight-Ridder Info. All rts. reserv. Includes references. Although high alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (Linum usitatissimum) is one of the richest dietary sources of alpha-linolenic acid and is also a good source of soluble fibre mucilage, it is relatively unstudied in human nutrition. Healthy female volunteers consumed 50 g ground, raw flaxseed/d for 4 weeks which provided 12-13% of energy intake (24-25 g/100 g total fat). Flaxseed raised alpha-linolenic acid and long-chain n-3 fatty acids in both plasma and erythrocyte lipids, as well as raising urinary thiocyanate excretion 2.2-fold. Flaxseed also lowered serum total cholesterol by 9% and low-density-lipoprotein-cholesterol by 18%. Changes in plasma alpha-linolenic acid were equivalent when 12 g alpha-linolenic acid/d was provided as raw flaxseed flour (50 g/d) or flaxseed oil (20 g/d) suggesting high bioavailability of alpha-linolenic acid from ground flaxseed. Test meals containing 50 g carbohydrate from flaxseed or 25 g flaxseed mucilage each significantly decreased postprandial blood glucose responses by 27%. Malondialdehyde levels in muffins containing 15 g flaxseed oil were similar to those in wheat-flour muffins. Cyanogenic glycosides (linamarin, linustatin, neolinustatin) were highest in extracted flaxseed mucilage but were not detected in baked muffins containing 150 g flaxseed/kg. We conclude that up to 50 g high-alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed/d is palatable, safe and may be nutritionally beneficial in humans by raising n-3 fatty acids in plasma and erythrocytes and by decreasing postprandial glucose responses. " After reading that I went into the kitchen and weighed out 50g of flaxseed on a digital kitchen scale. By volume, 50g of flaxseed is 1/4 cup (a little over 4 tablespoons). While cooking does eliminate the cyanogens, a couple tablespoons of freshly ground raw flaxseed per day is not likely to cause cyanide poisoning. Where cyanide poisoning is a serious issue is when a cyanogenic food is a staple of the diet, as is the case with cassava. What I see in all this is another case like soy, where a danger has been blown completely out of proportion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 People reported nausea, pimples, rashes, bruising and dark spots appearing on the skin. This was beofore we had researched any negative effects. We also had a friend who was another practitioner and reported the same problems with his clients. We were baffled at first because this was years ago when the flax hype started to occur . After the clients discontinued most symptoms went away . Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 yes, it was the only thing they added and when they stopped it went away. I have a friend (not a client) that told me she discovered the same thing years ago when she experimented with flax. Maybe some people are just more sensitive to the effects. Have you read what Peat has to say about flax and other superpolyunsaturated oils? Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 In a message dated 3/22/03 6:20:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, zumicat@... writes: > People reported nausea, pimples, rashes, bruising and dark spots appearing on > > the skin. > This was beofore we had researched any negative effects. We also had a > friend > who was another practitioner and reported the same problems with his clients. > > We were baffled at first because this was years ago when the flax hype > started to occur . > After the clients discontinued most symptoms went away . I haven't eaten flax in a long time, but when I used to I would get a moderate allergic reaction such as an itchy mouth from them, much like I do with a large amount of raw sprouts. I can eat a small amount of sprouts on salad, though, and could probably do the same with flax. I had no idea about the theoretical problems with flax though, until now, or I would have put more weight with my reaction. Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 In a message dated 3/22/03 6:21:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, je@... writes: > well, if cooking creates some toxins and kills omega3 aspect but raw > contains another toxin what's a body to do~ maybe ferment them? i have no idea if this would work, but it takes care of the problems with raw cruciferous veggies without killing the anti-carcinogens like cooking does. perhaps a similar dynamic? hmm... raw fermented flax? don't know how that would taste... chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 oh my goodness... well, if cooking creates some toxins and kills omega3 aspect but raw contains another toxin what's a body to do~ ----- Original Message ----- From: " Stanley " <johnny_tesla@...> < > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: Re: raw flaxseed?? > > > according to Bruce Fife he says you should not eat flax raw but > > cooked... once you cook it would be rancid and oxidize so I don't > > think I follow his thinking can anyone comment on this one? > > >From a quick Google search it appears to me that Bruce Fife is sloppy > enough in his research that I wouldn't take his dire warning about > raw flaxseed too seriously. From this document, > > http://www.anu.edu.au/BoZo/CCDN/protocols/ProtG.pdf > > I found the following: " Flax seed (linseed) contains the cyanide > containing compounds linustatin, neolinustatin and linamarin as well > as the enzyme linustatinase which catalyses the hydrolysis of these > cyanogenic glucosides to liberate HCN. " > > Thiocyanate, the stuff that Bruce Fife claims is in flax, is in fact, > the relatively harmless metabolite that results from ingesting the > above referenced cyanogens. It should also be noted that there are > cyanogens found in peach, bitter almond, apricot, plum, apple, and > pear seeds as well as in some medicines. > > On a site for a company that sells flax I found a .PDF document that > references various safety studies on flax consumption. One was done > on volunteers eating 50g per day of raw flaxseed, and the researchers > concluded that eating up to 50g per day is safe and may be > nutritionally beneficial: > > http://www.flax.com/enreco/PDF/Safety_Studies.pdf > > " 8. Cunnane, S. C., Ganguli, S., Menard, C., Liede, A. C., Hamadeh, > M. J., Chen, Z. Y., Wolever, T. M. S., > & , D. J. A. (1993). High alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (linum > usitatissimum): some nutritional > properties in humans. Br J Nutr, 69 (2), 443-453. > © format only 1996 Knight-Ridder Info. All rts. reserv. Includes > references. > Although high alpha-linolenic acid flaxseed (Linum usitatissimum) is > one of the richest dietary sources of > alpha-linolenic acid and is also a good source of soluble fibre > mucilage, it is relatively unstudied in human > nutrition. Healthy female volunteers consumed 50 g ground, raw > flaxseed/d for 4 weeks which provided > 12-13% of energy intake (24-25 g/100 g total fat). Flaxseed raised > alpha-linolenic acid and long-chain n-3 > fatty acids in both plasma and erythrocyte lipids, as well as raising > urinary thiocyanate excretion 2.2-fold. > Flaxseed also lowered serum total cholesterol by 9% and > low-density-lipoprotein-cholesterol by 18%. > Changes in plasma alpha-linolenic acid were equivalent when 12 g > alpha-linolenic acid/d was provided as > raw flaxseed flour (50 g/d) or flaxseed oil (20 g/d) suggesting high > bioavailability of alpha-linolenic acid > from ground flaxseed. Test meals containing 50 g carbohydrate from > flaxseed or 25 g flaxseed mucilage > each significantly decreased postprandial blood glucose responses by > 27%. Malondialdehyde levels in > muffins containing 15 g flaxseed oil were similar to those in > wheat-flour muffins. Cyanogenic glycosides > (linamarin, linustatin, neolinustatin) were highest in extracted > flaxseed mucilage but were not detected in > baked muffins containing 150 g flaxseed/kg. We conclude that up to 50 > g high-alpha-linolenic acid > flaxseed/d is palatable, safe and may be nutritionally beneficial in > humans by raising n-3 fatty acids in > plasma and erythrocytes and by decreasing postprandial glucose > responses. " > > After reading that I went into the kitchen and weighed out 50g of > flaxseed on a digital kitchen scale. By volume, 50g of flaxseed is > 1/4 cup (a little over 4 tablespoons). While cooking does eliminate > the cyanogens, a couple tablespoons of freshly ground raw flaxseed > per day is not likely to cause cyanide poisoning. Where cyanide > poisoning is a serious issue is when a cyanogenic food is a staple of > the diet, as is the case with cassava. > > What I see in all this is another case like soy, where a danger has > been blown completely out of proportion. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 so they knew for sure it was the flax because that was the only thing new they had incorporated into their regime?? ----- Original Message ----- From: <zumicat@...> < > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 3:19 PM Subject: Re: raw flaxseed?? > People reported nausea, pimples, rashes, bruising and dark spots appearing on > the skin. > This was beofore we had researched any negative effects. We also had a friend > who was another practitioner and reported the same problems with his clients. > We were baffled at first because this was years ago when the flax hype > started to occur . > After the clients discontinued most symptoms went away . > Elainie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 I'm curious about this because I give my children and myself flaxseed oil everyday because it helps so much with skin dryness. My 3yo's skin gets terribly dry and red in the winter and the only thing that has ever helped is the flaxseed oil. Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: zumicat@... Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:16 AM Subject: Re: raw flaxseed?? Personally, I steer clear of ANY FLAX. Bruce and I have had long conversations regarding flax and my dh and I have had negative results with clients using it. Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 It's in his book. He feels that it's not necessary to include in ones diet . My husband and I feel that if one drastically reduces PUFA's then supplementary oils high in omega 3's become unnecessary when one eats a good diet. We feel the same way about fish oils as well. Some people do report positive results when using supplementary oils, but what if they just reduced the PUFA's and started eating better? Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Elaine, Could you tell more about what Bruce Fife has to say to you and where he got his research? Is he talking about the oils only or also ground flax? And what does he say about cooking it? Peat is negative about all seed oils. Thanks Lynn > yes, it was the only thing they added and when they stopped it went away. > I have a friend (not a client) that told me she discovered the same thing > years ago when she experimented with flax. Maybe some people are just more > sensitive to the effects. > Have you read what Peat has to say about flax and other superpolyunsaturated > oils? > Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 It refers to dear husband. I think I've been on chat sites too long (laughing) and learned the internet lingo there! BTW- my husband did quite a bit of research into flax in the context of ancient and primitive tyoe diets and could find no evidence to support it's use aside from being used as a medicinal tea (cooked.) Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Yes, it fact after reading Dr. Budwigs boook is when we started to incorporate flax oil and fresh ground flax into our and clients diet's. There are so many different ways to approach cancer and it may be what the person leaves omits rather than adds as well as mental/spiritual approach that could be responsible for healing. That said, I never did see the positive results on LBA that Dr. Budwig claimed to have seen. Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Th estudy my husband does takes one far beyond recent times. Flax as I understand has been used in recent times. When I say recent I mean in the last few hundred years or so. I'll ask my husband for specifics if you like. I have no idea who fundred that study, but once again I can ask my husband if he knows. He teaches classes on nutrition and native diets etc. so he has to know these things. Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 No, I'm not saying that at all. My husband has been in the healing arts with an emphasis on cancer for over 25 years (not anymore though) During that time he has seen many things occur. The ones that healed themselves of cancer did it through spiritual practices combined with a healthy diet. A healthy diet did not mean one particular way of eating. There were many variations. Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Hi, I just skimmed through the flax thread and I wanted to mention that flax can be sprouted (someone was musing about different methods of preparation...). I've done it a few times to try it out, but it's kind of a hassle because the seeds are mucilaginous and so the normal sprouting setup doesn't work. I've used hemp bags and paper towels. There's info on .com. In the end I decided not to incorporate it into my diet because it was too much trouble and didn't taste great. I used to eat some freshly ground raw flax everyday, but gave that up in light of four considerations: 1) controversies about flax 2) I get omega-3's from cod liver oil, etc 3) vague worries about phytoestrogens 4) I'm guessing it's not something that's been in the human diet from the early days, so I probably can do fine without it. One other thing! This has been driving me nuts for the longest time!! I keep seeing " dh " in email posts. I've inferred that it must mean husband, but where does " dh " come from (is it an acronym for something?), and, more importantly, how does everyone else know but me?!?! It really bugs me to lack some item of the public English lexicon Could it be something one picks up from tv or newspapers, or " news " in general? I haven't had exposure to those media in over ten years. I've been a heavy computer user for many years though. Sorry to go so " OT " , but since it was in the post below I figured that now's my chance! (Next I will find a way to get to the bottom of all those insanely mysterious oval black and white car stickers with nothing but inexplicable letters on them. Is there something wrong with me??? ) post-flax and in the dark, Mike On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 zumicat@... wrote: > Personally, I steer clear of ANY FLAX. Bruce and I have had long > conversations regarding flax and my dh and I have had negative results with > clients using it. > Elainie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mike On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 zumicat@... wrote: > It refers to dear husband. I think I've been on chat sites too long > (laughing) and learned the internet lingo there! > BTW- my husband did quite a bit of research into flax in the context of > ancient and primitive tyoe diets and could find no evidence to support it's > use aside from being used as a medicinal tea (cooked.) > Elainie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 what about all the cancer cure stories from Johanna Budwig?? ----- Original Message ----- From: " Anton " <bwp@...> < > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:56 PM Subject: Re: raw flaxseed?? > thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Mike > > On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 zumicat@... wrote: > > > It refers to dear husband. I think I've been on chat sites too long > > (laughing) and learned the internet lingo there! > > BTW- my husband did quite a bit of research into flax in the context of > > ancient and primitive tyoe diets and could find no evidence to support it's > > use aside from being used as a medicinal tea (cooked.) > > Elainie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Thanks, Elaine, for the information! I thought I'd read (somewhere???) that flax was part of diet of eastern Europeans. It makes more sense it wouldn't be esp. since you need to grind it to get anything from it. BTW... (since you've done the research)do you happen to know who funded the Canadian study comparing it with tamoxifin? Given that it was a Canadian study and flax is grown primarily there ....... BTW....Micheal ....it also took me the longest time to figure out dh and I have one!!! Lynn > It refers to dear husband. I think I've been on chat sites too long > (laughing) and learned the internet lingo there! > BTW- my husband did quite a bit of research into flax in the context of > ancient and primitive tyoe diets and could find no evidence to support it's > use aside from being used as a medicinal tea (cooked.) > Elainie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 so you were saying there is no science and that it was a mental/spiritual thing?? ----- Original Message ----- From: <zumicat@...> < > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 4:38 PM Subject: Re: raw flaxseed?? > Yes, it fact after reading Dr. Budwigs boook is when we started to > incorporate flax oil and fresh ground flax into our and clients diet's. There > are so many different ways to approach cancer and it may be what the person > leaves omits rather than adds as well as > mental/spiritual approach that could be responsible for healing. That said, I > never did see the positive results on LBA that Dr. Budwig claimed to have > seen. > Elainie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 >(Next I will find a way to get to the bottom of all > those insanely mysterious oval black and white car stickers with nothing but inexplicable letters on them. Is there something wrong with me??? Hi Mike, I believe the letters on those stickers are abbreviations for foreign countries. And it seems most of the ones I've seen are for European countries. (I wish I could think of an example to give you.) I'm not sure who puts them on their cars -- if it's someone from that country, someone who visited/likes that country, or for some more official reason. It used to bug me, too, not knowing what they were for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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