Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 In a message dated 3/21/03 8:09:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, s.fisher22@... writes: > and chris, how do you know the goitrogens > are still present when it *tastes* like cabbage? how can we be sure we've > neutralized them, for the most part? oh boy, i dunno, just making unfounded assumptions as usual My assumption is that if it is fermented, the goitrogens are neutralized or at least mostly so, and if it still tastes like cabbage, that indicates it hasn't fermented as fully as it could. So, I have no idea if there is a direct relationship between cabbage taste and goitrogens, but there is a direct relationship between taste and fermentation, and another direct relationship between fermentation and goitrogens (I assume the longer it ferments the more are neutralized) and so I just figured in lack of a more accurate measurement that taste was the most practical thing to go on. Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 >>>>>Ahhh, we've been doing 8 weeks in the crock, though somewhat cooler temps - 65 or slightly less. It's like a fine wine once opened (as at Radiant Life once said). ----->i am so uneducated in the finer points of sauerkraut making! I've just been leaving it out in a ball jar for 3 days, as NT instructs, than putting it in the fridge. then eating it. I want to improve...what is the advantage of making sauerkraut in a crockpot, folks? and why leave it out for weeks? it just ferments better that way? and chris, how do you know the goitrogens are still present when it *tastes* like cabbage? how can we be sure we've neutralized them, for the most part? Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 >>>>I'm sure this varies based upon temperature, and as long as the cabbage comes out not looking like raw cabbage and looking more like 'kraut . . . I suspect the process is complete. I would expect this to be a minimum of two weeks. ----->thanks for the explanation ken :-) does anyone here ferment sauerkraut for *weeks* in a regular ol' ball jar? Is it OK to do it that long in a ball jar? I've been thinking of getting a Harsch crock pot...does anyone know where to get one at a good price? i did a quick google search and they are all around $100 for a 7.5 liter crock. Is that what you're all using? And do you ferment other things in it? also, for those of you making sauerkraut in Harsch crock pots - are you using the NT recipe? or a recipe that comes with the Harsch? Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 --- In , " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22 > I've been thinking of getting a Harsch crock pot...does anyone > know where to get one at a good price? i did a quick google search > and they are all around $100 for a 7.5 liter crock. Is that what > you're all using? Yep, that's the crock, and a bit over $100 is what you can expect to pay for one. > And do you ferment other things in it? I did one batch of turnipkraut in it, which fermented just fine, but I just never developed any real enthusiasm for the taste, and I ended up tossing most of it. Ernie Hinkle, who at 78 or 79 years old is still bringing a few hundred pounds of produce twice a week to our local farmers market, says that kohlrabi kraut is the king of fermented crucifers. So, that'll be my next experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 --- In , " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22 > also, for those of you making sauerkraut in Harsch crock pots - > are you using the NT recipe? or a recipe that comes with the > Harsch? Ooops... forgot to respond to this part. I'm using a recipe that came with the crock: 5 level tablespoons salt to 10 pounds cabbage. That recipe has come out perfectly every time for me. Once, I used only 3 tablespoons of salt, and the kraut came out with an off taste and quickly developed a surface slime in storage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 >No " raw " cabbage texture or flavor. I >find it's more digestible that way and I suspect that this is what it takes >to neutralize the goitrogens. The fermentation process is just that. . . a >process. So I like to honor what I think is a complete process. I'm sure this >varies based upon temperature, and as long as the cabbage comes out not >looking like raw cabbage and looking more like 'kraut Most of the books I've read talk about a few days at room temp, then more at lower temp. Kraut is really forgiving though. I put mine in the fridge, partly out of convenience, after 3 days. Also, as far as the NT recommendation, I think some of that has to do with out-gassing. If you put it in the fridge, it won't get so bubbly -- a different set of bacteria is at work. If you " age " it in the fridge, will taste different than " aged " at room temp, because it is a different bacterial mix. But that is a matter of taste, which one you prefer. Heidi S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 >I've been thinking of getting a Harsch crock pot...does anyone know where to >get one at a good price? i did a quick google search and they are all around >$100 for a 7.5 liter crock. Is that what you're all using? And do you >ferment other things in it? That's what I'm using. It's worth the $100! Only one thing -- I glued some teflon sliders onto the bottom (chair sliders). Otherwise it will scrape your counter! >also, for those of you making sauerkraut in Harsch crock pots - are you >using the NT recipe? or a recipe that comes with the Harsch? Recipe? Recipe? Who needs no stinking recipe? :-) Actually I've used both -- the Harsch " Russian kraut " recipe is really superb, but I usually don't have all the ingredients. Usually I just put in a mess of cabbage and a few T of salt mixed with water. It makes great kimchi too. I use it for everything for fermenting. Lately I've taken to adding a lot more salt water though, because the " juice " works better than vinegar in recipes (Vinegar added to meat makes one person here ill, I think because that is the recipe for MSG). Heidi S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 I've used the book Radiant Life has on Sauerkraut making. It's a very helpful, simple little book with various recipies and good basic data on times, temps, etc. Definately worth the minimal investment. We have a batch from that book in the crock now: Green and red cabbage, few apples and onions, bay leaves, carraway seeds, salt and whey. It'll be 8 weeks in 4 days and we're excited about trying it out. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 thanks for the info on sauerkraut and harsch crocks, folks. right now, i can't afford the harsch and am wondering if anyone's fermenting cabbage for more than 3 days at room temp in a Ball jar? the harsch crocks have some sort of construction where they can let air out, but not let air in, which somehow helps the fermenation process. since ball jars don't have this feature, i'm wondering if it's ok to still ferment them for weeks at room temp? also, mine never bubbles like chris mentioned...i wonder why? i just finished my breakfast and i had a little sauerkraut from my last batch, which was a 3 day ball jar room ferment. it tasted pretty bad, although my previous batch, using the same timing, was fantastic. darn...i want to be able to produce consistently good batches (in ball jars for the time being)...'cause when it's good, it's REALLY good! Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 In a message dated 3/22/03 2:57:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, heidis@... writes: > Use some juice from your last good batch to innoculate the next! > Sometimes the cabbages are old, I think, or for some other reason > don't have the right bacteria. You are supposed to make kraut within > 2 days after the cabbage was picked, but that never happens with me! Uh-oh... I keep forgetting about the cabbage in my fridge for about 2 weeks... D'oh! My friend said he's had cabbage for a month without it going bad, so I figured I could still use it. I'm not going to cook it because I *hate* cabbage (but love kraut!)-- do you think it's dangerous to try to use the cabbage for kraut? That brings me to another question-- I've similarly forgotten about a half gallon of milk in the fridge in my basement for about three weeks. Any thoughts on whether this is safe to use for whey/cream cheese? Has anyone soured their milk in the fridge before? Just wondering if a different set of bacteria ferment it b/c of the difference in temp. Oh, and that's because I haven't been able to drink milk for a few weeks because I'm on anti-candida diet. Otherwise I would never let that happen! Thanks, Chris ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Thanks Heidi. Haven't even checked the milk yet, I'll do that soon. I always use way as an innoculent in my kraut anyway. Maybe I'll throw a little extra in to be on the safe side. I use the NT recipe. Chris In a message dated 3/22/03 5:53:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, heidis@... writes: > Near as I can tell, cabbage keeps forever. I've had it in my fridge for > months > also. I toss the parts that get black spots on them. But other than the > black > spots they would make fine kraut (or anything else). Cabbage is like pumpkin, > > keeps and keeps. But you should use an innoculant, probably, because there > would be less of the right bacteria. > > > >That brings me to another question-- I've similarly forgotten about a half > >gallon of milk in the fridge in my basement for about three weeks. Any > >thoughts on whether this is safe to use for whey/cream cheese? Has anyone > >soured their milk in the fridge before? Just wondering if a different set > of > >bacteria ferment it b/c of the difference in temp. > > How does it smell? If it was raw milk, and it smells good, then > traditionally > it would certainly be used ( " clabbered milk " ). Sometimes the natural > bacteria > don't taste as good though. I don't think the fridge is an issue -- houses > used > to be very cold, pretty much at fridge temps. It probably is a different set > of bacteria, but if it smells good, it's doubtful that they are bad bacteria. > > > Speaking of bad bacteria, I have a recipe for beer that involves putting > a whole (feathers and everything) dead rooster into the wine-vat to > ferment. Apparently salmonella was NOT a concern in those days! > ____ " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for those who do them wrong. " --Saint Isaac the Syrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 >i just finished my breakfast and i had a little sauerkraut from my last >batch, which was a 3 day ball jar room ferment. it tasted pretty bad, >although my previous batch, using the same timing, was fantastic. darn...i >want to be able to produce consistently good batches (in ball jars for the >time being)...'cause when it's good, it's REALLY good! Suze: If you don't want to invest in a Harsch right now, you might try getting one of those glass gallon-size " cookie jars " . They sell them at Target here, probably someplace there. Use a plate to hold down the cabbage, and a washed rock on top of the plate (seems like lots of people use rocks, most rocks are ok). Put the lid on, and maybe some netting over the whole thing to keep flies out in the summer. You can also fill a glass jar with water or rocks and use that for a weight. In my experience, stuff ferments better in big batches -- probably because it evens out the temperature changes. Kraut has been made in wooden barrels and big open crocks for centuries. Lots of folks DO use mason jars -- I put the lids on a little loose when I've done it, and put them in a pan so if they leak it's no big deal. Air getting IN is NOT a big deal -- the main thing is to avoid mold, and it won't mold after a few days. But the big jars are SOOO much easier. Then tell everyone you know that you want a Harsch crock for your birthday. > Heidi S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 > Also -- on consisitency -- Use some juice from your last good batch to innoculate the next! Sometimes the cabbages are old, I think, or for some other reason don't have the right bacteria. You are supposed to make kraut within 2 days after the cabbage was picked, but that never happens with me! Heidi S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 >Uh-oh... I keep forgetting about the cabbage in my fridge for about 2 >weeks... D'oh! My friend said he's had cabbage for a month without it going >bad, so I figured I could still use it. I'm not going to cook it because I >*hate* cabbage (but love kraut!)-- do you think it's dangerous to try to use >the cabbage for kraut? Near as I can tell, cabbage keeps forever. I've had it in my fridge for months also. I toss the parts that get black spots on them. But other than the black spots they would make fine kraut (or anything else). Cabbage is like pumpkin, keeps and keeps. But you should use an innoculant, probably, because there would be less of the right bacteria. >That brings me to another question-- I've similarly forgotten about a half >gallon of milk in the fridge in my basement for about three weeks. Any >thoughts on whether this is safe to use for whey/cream cheese? Has anyone >soured their milk in the fridge before? Just wondering if a different set of >bacteria ferment it b/c of the difference in temp. How does it smell? If it was raw milk, and it smells good, then traditionally it would certainly be used ( " clabbered milk " ). Sometimes the natural bacteria don't taste as good though. I don't think the fridge is an issue -- houses used to be very cold, pretty much at fridge temps. It probably is a different set of bacteria, but if it smells good, it's doubtful that they are bad bacteria. Speaking of bad bacteria, I have a recipe for beer that involves putting a whole (feathers and everything) dead rooster into the wine-vat to ferment. Apparently salmonella was NOT a concern in those days! Heidi S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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