Re: NEED HELP QUICK in support of Maine dairy industry

[Guest guest]

At this point we are way beyond what this list is about. I support free

market enterprise if it is real free market which I don't think we have had

in this country since the early 1800's or so. In the mean time I try and

support small farmers whenever possible.And if the small farmer can wrestle

a small drop of subsidy away from what the corporate producers get, then

more power to them.

At 07:06 PM 3/20/03, you wrote:

>***** I agree with Irene too but I specifically stated several times I was

>talking about raw milk. Even if given the choice between purchasing

>subsidized organic pastured raw milk or unsubsidized free market raw milk

>I would support the free market as a matter of principle. I sympathize

>with bankrupt farmers too but they have to think for themselves. Salvation

>is just within their grasp. I know of two small farmers who have recently

>switched to organic pastured raw milk. I compete unsubsidized. So should

>everyone else.

>

>

>Larry

>

>

>--- Original Message -----

> From: ChrisMasterjohn@...

>

> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:47 PM

> Subject: Re: Re: NEED HELP QUICK in support of Maine

> dairy industry

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 3/20/03 4:06:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> irene@...

> writes:

>

> > the conversation though had shifted away from raw milk. I had said

> that it

> > was hard for small producers to compete with the factory producers

> if they

> > are in the same market (ie not raw). Larry had suggested that when the

> > small producer is run out of business, the large producer will jack up

> > prices thereby making it profitable for the small producer again. I was

> > just suggesting that it might not be so easy to get back into the

> business

> > once you have gone bankrupt or had to sell your assets. Certainly if

> you

> > are in a niche not occupied by factory producers you are in a much

> better

> > position.

>

> I agree completely with you Irene. I was under the impression,

> however, that

> Larry was referring to organic raw milk as the " higher quality " product he

> was referring to, in which case his statement would have been correct

> and the

> criticism you made, although correct, would have been undeserved for his

> particular example. If Larry was talking about non-raw milk, then, I

> agree

> with you.

>

> Chris

>

> ____

>

> " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

> heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings,

> birds, and

> animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the

> sight of

> them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

> compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

> bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

> Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies

> of the

> truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

>

> --Saint Isaac the Syrian

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

well, this has been an interesting and informative thread.

here is the thing, theses large-scale factory farming operations and

agribusiness, as a number of folks have already pointed out, are subsidized

themselves, and have the power of $ behind them to literally crush any

competition from small scale family farmers. and they are not just doing it

within the US borders, but are putting family farmers out of business all

over the globe. In India the situation of small farmers that have been

driven out of business by cheap, subsidized food from these multi-national

'farm's, is so desperate that a number of them have committed suicide by

eating the pesticides that they were strong armed into using, prior to going

bankrupt. imagine where this is all going...what choice will consumers have,

when all we've got to chose from is GMO corn from ConAgra or GMO corn from

Monsanto? Or when Indians only have a choice between GMO corn from ConAgra

or GMO corn from Monsanto? Or when Peruvians only have a choice between GMO

corn from ConAgra or GMO corn from Monsanto? Is that what it means to have a

'free' market?

aside from the issue of *choice*, what may be even more important, is that

many of these family farmers have a close relationship with, and knowledge

of, their *soil*. For some, it is sacred and they tilled the same soil that

their fathers(or mothers!) before them did, and their fathers before them,

and so on. and the fertility of that soil is a priority for them, as their

own family's health is dependent on the fertility of their soil. I know that

this type of relationship with the soil may not be so prevalent among many

modern *american* farmers today, but it is for many farmers elsewhere in the

world, and of course it is, to *many* american farmers - especially organic

and biodynamic farmers.

this farmer/soil relationship has been severed by the factory

farm/agribusinesses by driving these farmers out of biz. and do we for a

minute think these large industrial " farms " have *any* relationship with

their soil, other than to pump it full of chemical fertilizers, squeeze

crops out of it as quickly as possible, then abandon it, when it's become

exhausted, spent?

the small farmers literally don't have a chance against Monsanto, Con Agra

and the handful of other mega industrial agribussinesses/'farms'. free

market is all well and good in *theory* but that's not what we have in

reality, and I'm finding it increasingly necessary to deal with my

community's issues on a very practical level. While I'm not a big fan of

*conventional* farms, one of the main reasons I think it is important to

support the small scale conventional dairy farmers in Maine, is because the

WAPF-compatible farms here rely on the same infrastructure, and they will

feel the *ripple effect* of losing a large percentage of small local farms.

A MOFGA (Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association) farmer told our

local WAPF chapter that she is already feeling the pinch from a shrinking

small farm base that cannot support the feed, supply and equipment

businesses that she and other organic farmers also rely on. And anything

that hurts *them* - the organic, biodynamic and grass-feeding farms, hurts

*me* and other people in my community who want to have the ability to

*choose* locally-produced nourishing foods, over imported factory 'foods'.

another reason that I felt it was important to support LD 345 - the act to

reinstate a milk handling fee - is that a number of these conventional farms

are transitioning to organic. they are showing that are willing to change in

response to market demand. it is my hope, that our local WAPF group will be

able to increase the demand for *raw, grass-fed milk,* but it will be hard

for the conventional dairy farmers to make a transition to raw milk if

they've been run out of business and a walmart now sits on the old family

farm.

and the other main reason i think it's important for us Mainers to support

this act, is a the fact that losing these dairies will mean the loss of tens

of millions of $s of revenue in the state AND, the loss of thousands of

acres of farmland to potential development.

so, it's not as simple as a few, stubbornly conventional dairies going out

of business...the *ripple effects* spread far and wide...

i think we need to keep the bottom line in mind at all times - these mega

'farms' and agribusinesses, on an unprecedented scale, are putting the small

farmer out of business both home and abroad. the resulting effect is not

only the loss of soil fertility and decimation of the environment from their

UNsustainable production methods, but also the LOSS of consumer CHOICE. what

is so *free* about that?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

This is a great point. The NT diet, nonprocessed foods, is by definition

supporting farmers and not supporting corporations. The money flows

directly back into the economy, its good for the environment (organic) and

even though it costs more up front (not always) you will save it in health

costs later on.

>At this point we are way beyond what this list is about. I support free

>market enterprise if it is real free market which I don't think we have

>had in this country since the early 1800's or so. In the mean time I try

>and support small farmers whenever possible.And if the small farmer can

>wrestle a small drop of subsidy away from what the corporate producers

>get, then more power to them.

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>there are two perspectives, let the baby have the

>freedom to drink the formula,

This is _exactly_ what I'm talking about. What freedom does a baby

have? It can't think. It has no real choice in anything. It's mere

villainy to allow the " market " to dictate the baby's " choices " when that

means soy formula and other harmful foods and practices which BTW will

actually severely impair the ability of the baby's future adult self to

make rational decisions.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>But remember the role also of " strong " government in promoting the

>circumstances you are decryign.

I explicitly acknowledged that, but if there's no strong government,

mega-corporations won't have less power, they'll just use different tools

to wield their power. In fact, spared the necessity of lobbying

politicians and corrupting the political process, they'd probably be even

richer and more powerful.

Remember that Adam never postulated concentrations of capital that

were so big their magnitudes approached that of the seas of capital and

commerce they exist in.

Maybe there's some new, better political system that you and I haven't

thought of, but until somebody devises it, we're stuck with representative

democracy, which is very easily corruptible but can also be a powerful tool

for freedom, prosperity and health. The problem is that we've let things

get so bad that the vectors of education are almost entirely controlled by

big business. The internet, though, may be our salvation. How many of us

would be here -- would have heard of WAP or grass-fed meat or raw dairy or

anything else we hold dear -- without it? I know I wouldn't.

-

[Guest guest]

>i think we need to keep the bottom line in mind at all times - these mega

>'farms' and agribusinesses, on an unprecedented scale, are putting the small

>farmer out of business both home and abroad. the resulting effect is not

>only the loss of soil fertility and decimation of the environment from their

>UNsustainable production methods, but also the LOSS of consumer CHOICE. what

>is so *free* about that?

Suze:

Of course I agree with everything you said, but I'd like to inject a note

of hope in this, such as " the bigger they are, the harder they fall. " I

subscribe to a great magazine called New Scientist, that is NOT produced in

the US, and wow, it gives another take on the world. They've been having

stories of Africans doing AIDS work, and Indians working on race relations,

and yes, of local farmers going back to traditional farming methods. There

IS a backlash against " American Imperialism, " it is kind of quiet, but some

folks are waking up, and some governments are listening to their people and

supporting the lower-cost, easier methods.

The most stable, safe, organizational structure (in any organization, be it

a computer network or a country) is one in which there is a lot of local

control combined with some overall rules. Centralization -- be it the

Russian form of communism, a dictator, Monsanto, or a mainframe computer --

tends to be unstable and it takes a lot of work to maintain. The stable

forms tend to be the longest-lived. So there is hope!

And my vote is that this sort of thing is exactly what the list is about --

how can you cook NT if NT ingredients aren't available?????

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

>>>>

Of course I agree with everything you said, but I'd like to inject a note

of hope in this, such as " the bigger they are, the harder they fall. "

---->oh no doubt there is backlash...i think the situation has reached a

certain level of absurdity that people can't help but notice and rebel. in

fact, i think WE are a good example of hope...we are creating a demand for

food raised by sustainable methods, grown with nutrition in mind, and where

farm animals are not raised in horrendously cruel confinement situations.

yes, i DO hope they fall hard...but also soon.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...