Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 Hi , My son is epileptic with language disability ( landau kleffner syndrome ) - He has been on EPA oils for 8 months and shown some improvement - however we did take him off for 2 weeks and his regression was immediate and extremely bad - we are currently battling the long road up again and have got him back onto the fish oil - whether this was a coincedence with a natural regression phase that Landau kleffner kids do go thru or solely to do with stopping the fish pills - we dont know !!!!!!!!! Hope this helps Natali I am thinking seriously about finally trying this for both my children.(like today!) I keep hearing about children that stop taking it, regress a lot. So my question..Is this a life long thing? How do you know when it can be stopped? My eight year old can take a pill fine, this can be taken in pill form right? I was just checking out the Cherub site and the book. And one of the stories reminded me of my son ph. He is taking Concerta and Depakote,and would really love to see if the EFA works for him. And of course for my apraxic Lindsey. Another big question, because I really haven't read about the dosing. Is there a page where it will tell me where to get it. The exact name please, and how much to give for both children. My daughter is 33 pounds at five,(skinny minny) and my son is 75 pounds or more at eight. Thanks so much!!!!!! Jennie http://lindsey03.homestead.com/mygirl.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 >>>Is it true that animal fats don't contain EFA's??? ---->no. BUT, other than ruminants, typical factory farm grain-fed livestock have efa imbalances in their fat. commercial chicken usually runs approx. 15:1 to 19:1 omega 6/3. pasture-fed livestock have healthier (lower) efa ratios than battery-raised livestock. (with the possible exception of ruminants whose lipid profile is not reflective of dietary lipid profile as it is with other mammals.) Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 Suze- >pasture-fed livestock have healthier (lower) efa ratios than battery-raised >livestock. (with the possible exception of ruminants whose lipid profile is >not reflective of dietary lipid profile as it is with other mammals.) True with one qualification: while there's not much difference between the ratios of saturated to monounsaturated to polyunsaturated fats in battery ruminants and grass-fed ruminants, the n6:n3 ratio differs widely. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 Lierre- > " Since meat and dairy products don't contain EFA's, >many Americans simply don't consume enough of them to >reap their numerous health benefits. " That's complete and utter nonsense. It's actually only in animal foods that you'll find the elongated EFAs like DHA and EPA that are especially important for us. The problem with just talking about omega 3s and omega 6s is that there are many different omega 3s and omega 6s, and few people seem to make any distinction between the different ones, but make no mistake, they're different --they perform different functions in the body and we need different amounts of different ones. The shorter-chain plant forms are actually much less important, and the human body can only elongate a small percentage of dietary ALA and LA because we evolved on a diet rich in elongated animal forms. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 In , Idol <Idol@c...> wrote: , and the human body can only > elongate a small percentage of dietary ALA and LA because we evolved on a > ><<><<><>, How many generations do you suppose this took? Dennis diet rich in elongated animal forms. > > > > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 and Lierre, > > " Since meat and dairy products don't contain EFA's, > >many Americans simply don't consume enough of them to > >reap their numerous health benefits. " > > That's complete and utter nonsense. It's actually only in animal foods > that you'll find the elongated EFAs like DHA and EPA that are especially > important for us. I thought I remembered reading that the EFAs weren't in dairy and meat from grainfed animals, but only in those that were pastured. Am I remembering this correctly?? If that is the case then you could say that *conventional* meat and dairy don't contain EFAs. I'd be happy if someone could either verify or correct this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 ---It's amazing . Flies have been tortured in laboratory experiments for many, many generations and all this science produces is flies. Not any improved flies just some with shriveled wings, crooked bodies, weak eyes, no eyes, and some sterile. No indication of anything improving nor evolving. Dennis In , Idol <Idol@c...> wrote: > Dennis- > > >, How many generations do you suppose this took? > > Probably a pretty large number. I'd imagine once our ancestors ventured > out from the forests and onto the savannahs, they started eating a much > richer diet and, over time, jettisoning some of the apparatus they would've > needed for their forest diet. So it could've taken tens or hundreds of > thousands of years, or even millions of years. > > > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 About the ProEFA vs. Complete Omega Ultimate Omega topic -boy there is much confusion here! and others are right when they said " the only difference is the price and quantity: Complete Omega has 60 capsules/bottle and costs @ $17.00 ----ProEFA has 90 capsules/bottle and costs @ $23.00 " The person that said that the name of ProEFA was changed -that is not right. ProEFA is the professional line and Complete Omega is the commercial line. Also -the 60 capsules of Complete Omega cost $17 at Nordic Naturals site -or as nalacat@... says below -Nordic Naturals sells the ProEFA for $23 but Shop In Service was the first to get the ProEFA to us the parents and 90 capsules of ProEFA is $17 a bottle there. http://www.shop-in-service.com/proefa.htm If you want to know why read http://www.cherab.org/information/historyEFA.html And for those who want to know when I first learned about EFAs (and if you want to know why there even is a " Speech Diet " list I can let you know why for that too) For those of you that read my first email to a grouplist (like Kim) -here is one from weeks later that shows that we still didn't know that apraxia was " multifaceted " and yet we knew one thing..EFAs!!!.. Subject: Efalex update Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 00:10:09 -0400 From: & Glenn <shop-in-service@...> To: " APRAXIA-KIDS@... " <APRAXIA- KIDS@...> Hi All and Happy Holidays! Many of you may have read that Tanner, who is 2.9 years old and has verbal apraxia, has been taking the liquid Efalex for the past 2 and a half weeks. Other than an expressive language delay, Tanner has no other issues. A month ago Tanner was evaluated twice to have the expressive language ability of a 12 month old both by his therapist, and Early Intervention, who just accepted him in. Could there be a deficiency in children with apraxia? In layman's terms, could Efalex to an apraxic child be similar to Vitamin C to someone with Scurvy? Of course there may not be such a thing as a " miracle " pill, but we are so convinced that the changes are from the Efalex, that Glenn and I don't want to try the Flax Seed Oil just yet, even though we've heard from so many of you how wonderful it is. Tanner has been in speech therapy twice a week for the past 5 months, and both Glenn and I work with him consistently at home. However, within the past 2 weeks we have seen such dramatic changes that we both believe it to be as a result of the Efalex. We don't know if anyone else experienced the changes as soon as we did with Tanner. Within 2 weeks he attempted to say I love you, " I, ahh, ooo " (Before then, most of the time Tanner would say, " mmmm " in the right tones and point, he didn't attempt speech even with prompting. This is a child that was saying little more than " Ma Ma " three weeks ago, and wasn't even able to put the sound " ch " together with the sound " oo " He wasn't even saying " Da Da " !) The other day, Tanner pointed to the color yellow without any prompting and said, " lellow " . Tanner is now saying quite a few more words, and he is being consistent with what words he learns! He's trying to talk all the time now, something he wasn't doing at all before. As a matter of fact, before 3 weeks ago most of the time if you tried to get Tanner to say a word, he would stamp his foot and say, " mmm " in the tone of NO! Now, he loves pointing to, and saying colors. (Purple! Blue! etc.) His therapist is thrilled with his progress in the past week, it's really been a remarkable improvement! Coincidence? Maybe, but we are hoping to see more improvements just as rapidly. (Putting 2 words together, etc.) Right now, Tanner still is unable to lift his tongue from the bottom of his mouth except by accident. One thing we try is putting peanut butter on the on the outside of his mouth on top of his lip and make a game of it that he has to lick it off. He tries to use his bottom lip to push his tongue up, but he still can't raise it enough to lick it off. We are curious to see if that changes soon too. It's only been two and a half weeks for us, but we have not seen any negative side effects from giving Tanner the Efalex other than he still hates the taste. We have found cooking it in his eggs or letting it soak into his cereal or pancakes is the only way we can give it to him without any problems. Does anyone know about cooking with Efalex? Any suggestion on how to have him swallow the pills if we buy them next? Just one other note for those of you who asked how to respond to people that say, " Oh, he'll be talking soon " (We ran into that lots this weekend with the Holiday, especially because Tanner is starting to " talk! " ) Maybe it's us, but Glenn and I never get mad at people for saying this. We feel it's coming from love, not maliciousness. We usually say, " We really hope that happens, but we are doing whatever therapy we can just in case. " They usually then say, " Oh, of course...So what is this called again that he has? " We then give them a brief description of what Apraxia is and how well Tanner is doing with therapy. Anyway, for anyone who cares to know, we give Efalex two thumbs up. We'll keep you updated with what happens in the weeks ahead! and Glenn, Parents to Dakota, 4.8 and Tanner 2.9 (apraxia) For all the new members -here is a long archive on EFAs that I don't have time to edit so use if and what you can and delete the rest! From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...> Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:08 am Subject: Re: apraxia diet/EFA archive messages for new members Since we have so many new members, again, here is an archive about EFAs (also known as essential fatty acids, fish oil, PUFAs, LCPs, Omega 3's etc.) You may also want to explore carn-aware/carnosine, and other dietary changes/additions at some point. I highly recommend starting with just adding a few drops of Omega 3/6 oil (formula/dosage stated below) -and let us know the good news in a day to three weeks. Run all by your child's MD and best to you! ~ From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...> Date: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Efa dosage Hi , Answers from the archives: Brand names are not important -only dosage -formula - purity. The formula we found to be best is in the archives here and in The Late Talker book (Co-authored by developmental pediatrician and Medical Director for NYC Early Intervention Marilyn Agin MD) http://www.speech-express.com/late.talker.html presented at The First Apraxia Conference with leading PhDs in this area sponsored by CHERAB http://www.cherab.org/news/scientific.html -and listed below. EFA stands for essential fatty acid -kind of an umbrella name for all EFAs. (and for the person that asked -EPA stands for an Omega 3 PUFA found in fish called eicosapentaenoic acid -which is why we will just all call it EPA!) To answer your question in short -Nordic Naturals is the manufacturer of ProEFA, ProDHA and ProEPA. ProEFA is an Omega 3 and Omega 6 formula like Efalex and Eye Q -the only other two formulas we hear positive feedback from in large numbers. Coromega is not found to be as effective as the Omega 3/6 formulas -it's a pure Omega 3) Like Coromega -ProDHA and ProEPA are both pure Omega 3 formulas. Most store bought EFAs are rancid, so be aware of this. Oxygen and fish oil do not mix. Smell or taste (for the brave) fish oils to compare and make sure the fish oil you use is pure. Again most of us use ProEFA, Efalex or EyeQ -you can use others -just make sure the company is reputable. Coramega is very pure -it's just that it's only an Omega 3. If the oil you are giving your child smells like rancid fish -it probably is. As you can imagine -it's hard enough -and nasty enough -trying to give " pure " fish oil to a toddler on a spoon! Most of us found success with adding the ProEPA to the ProEFA -but down the road a bit as talked about here http://www.speech-express.com/alternative-therapy/efa-faqs.html It is the CHERAB Foundation that found which dosage, and formula of EFA worked the best for our children from feedbacks since 1999. You can read more about this at http://www.cherab.org http://www.cherab.org/news/scientific.html Here are just two archived messages that I hope will also help you to understand more about EFAs (in the long version). And while you are searching for answers -ask your parents or grandparents -most of them were given cod liver oil -a pure Omega 3 with DHA and EPA (also now called DHA Jr. as a brand name!) as children. " About the EFAs -once again brand name does not matter, brand name does not matter, brand name does not matter, brand name does not matter, did I tell you guys that brand name does not matter? What matters when it comes to EFAs are only three things in my opinion: Formula Dosage Quality of the oils. I will use the following examples with the brand name ProEFA since that's the formula/dosage that seems to work the best for most of us (Efalex and EyeQ are similar Omega 3/6 formulas that also have good reports) For any brand name of Omega 3/6 formula -you could make the same formula by mixing together fish oil and either primrose or borage seed oil if you prefer -or as found -another brand name with a similar formula (and I hope also a good quality) If you mix two fish oils together which is fine if you know why you are doing that: Look at the amount of DHA, EPA (Omega 3) and the amount of GLA (Omega 6) and then add them all together to see what formula and dosage you now have is. So for those of you that ask - you can mix any brand names together you would like -however what you could change is the three things above (dosage, formula and *quality (*if one of the companies you start using has rancid oils which is not uncommon when it comes to fish oils -so make sure all brands you use are pure) Keep in mind in anecdotal feedback done by parents from all over through CHERAB -that pure Omega 3 or pure Omega 6 either showed no results -or very little results in almost all cases. Pure Omega 3 would include pure cod liver oil, fish oil, flax seed oil without any Omega 6. So even though there is only a small amount of GLA (Omega 6) in the formulas we found to be successful -GLA appears to be important to be there for some reason. GLA has anti-inflammatory properties which perhaps enable to DHA and EPA to get to where it's needed in the brain? Adding extra EPA or DHA is different when you talk about mixing oils. Adding an oil high in one of these to the basic ProEFA formula EPA (Omega 3 such as ProEPA) or high in DHA (Omega 3 such as ProDHA) will raise the EPA or the DHA higher in the formula -and also raise the Omega 3 to Omega 6 slightly higher as well. With your child this may be a good thing -or not a good thing -it depends if you raise the DHA or the EPA. Adding primrose (Omega 6) or borage seed oil (Omega 6) to the basic ProEFA formula will raise the Omega 6 -which most of us found not to be a good thing for our children. Most of us found that raising the EPA slightly higher than the DHA over the basic ProEFA formula was effective (a handful find raising the DHA more to be better) -but most of us do this over time as Deborah points out -not all at once. What this means is that unfortunately -the formula most of us found to be the best over time you can not yet purchase as a brand name -you have to create...however fortionatly the basic Omega 3/6 brand name formula's seem to work to start for almost all children (Efalex, ProEFA and EyeQ) Dosage of one capsule a day ProEFA that at the lowest dosage appears to be the best - 148 mg EPA 99 mg DHA 40 mg GLA Here is what many of us have found to be the best plan anecdotally...start with the basic formula, one ProEFA a day, we saw surges in a few days to three weeks which continued for months - we then reached a plateau after around 6 months. At this point we raised the dosage to two capsules of ProEFA a day and once again had those surges which lasted again for months. When we reached the next plateau after around a year, instead of going to three a day - we squeezed 1/2 to one capsule of ProEPA into the 2 capsules of ProEFA and for almost all of us that try -that created another surge. Over time -you may raise the dosage up higher -and you may slightly change the formula to raise the Omega 3 over the Omega 6 ratio -but you need to know your own child, keep track of his progress through both your own observations and that of the professionals -with the advice of your child's doctor -to know what is best for him/her. Here is an archived cut and paste message of mine -there are many more in the archives both here -as well as more information at http://www.cherab.org/information/indexinformation.html#diet http://www.speechville.com " in our group numerous children were on pure Omega 3 with little to no results and then the same children responded amazingly well within one to three weeks when given instead a formula with Omega 3 (DHA and EPA) and a " small " amount of Omega 6 (borage or primrose oil) The CHERAB Foundation first did a parent feedback which compared pure Omega 3 (like cod live oil) to Omega 3/6 formulas (like ProEFA or Efalex) Check the archives -most of the parents that used the cod liver oil saw little to no difference -and then as stated above had moderate to dramatic changes in one to three weeks when switched to (or just started on) the Omega 3/6 formula. My son Tanner was one of them. Before I knew the difference I just called all the (pure) fish oil capsules I tried the " reject " oils and wondered to all why they didn't work and Efalex or ProEFA (or EyeQ) did. Why the changes? Only future research will tell. For now -I just want all to know that if one doesn't work (like pure fish oil) or work for long -switch to the formula that works for most of us. Basic formula no matter what fish/borage or primrose formula you use or make by combining oils: EPA -150 to 250 DHA 100 GLA 50 If you raise the dosages -the ratio should still stay around the same. I believe this is important to note since most that " try " cod liver oil or another fish oil that doesn't have Omega 6 may find that fish oil doesn't " work " My point is that formula (dosage and quality) are all that is important -and no matter what any expert believe in theory -you can not argue with what we as parents see in our children in reality. As always -The proof is in the pudding. " Homework -go watch Lorenzo's Oil. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe the group that EFAs don't " work " for is more than 1% and less than 10% of the children based on what we hear. Interesting to note -we've had a dramatic rise in children with speech disorders in the last 10 years - " 30 fold " (!!) according the 2001 Department of Education stats. According to Dr. Mark Geier via email " my analysis of this data showed that there was a 30-fold increase in speech disorders in children born in the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s. This means that the numbers were 30 times higher in children born in the mid-1990s than the mid-1980s (i.e. the actual numbers were approximately 2 per 1,000 children born in the mid- 1980s to approximately 60 per 1,000 children born in the mid-1990 " So in the 80's 2 out of 1000 speech disordered children were the norm (and maybe the ones that would not have responded) and the 90's it rose to 60 out of 1000. Why the extra 58 children? And don't assume " more " awareness (that's a joke!), based on what I just wrote here -those numbers should probably be higher. http://www.cherab.org/information/adhd-speech.html ... But back to the percentage theory (that some children would have had a " rare " speech disorder in the past as a norm -and the children in this small group did not " get " apraxia the same way as the other 58?) Anecdotally time doesn't make a difference -and in most cases dosage doesn't either. If it works -it works with the " right " omega 3/6 formula at even a very low dosage for some reason, even if it works better at a higher dosage. (for those of us that have kids that it works for -they'll know what I mean) and changes are noted in a day to three weeks in almost all cases but a handful. I'm not saying that it's hopeless and that the oil therapy will never help those in that small group (never say never) - You can try what others have tried. Some have tried changing formula's, (rent Lorenzo's Oil) and I would try not doing everything at once (both fish oil and carnosine) I'm happy that both were not available to me to start -I would have done both at the same time too. However we don't know how one plays with the other -and we know that one could counteract the other. You also want to make sure that your child's diet is not big time saturated fats -that will compromise the positive effects. Worst is french fries and doughnuts. Try stopping the fried foods for 3 weeks -and see if there is a change. If your child doesn't eat fast food or fried foods lots -then that's not it either. Here is a plan: Keep a notebook and stop one for a few months. Then stop the other. Any regressions with either? Then put your child back on just the Omega 3/6 oil -notes again, any changes? Stop that and then start the carnosine, any changes? As we all know now most of the children respond to an Omega 3/ 6 formula similar to 100 DHA 150 -250 EPA 30-50 GLA As far as starting on the high dosage as Efalex recommends -again most of us don't have to do that either to see the surge in a day to three weeks. Also the PhDs say it can take " up to 3 months " if you want to go by what has been stated about it. Keep in mind that most people only post if they see great results -or no results. I recommend finding (or starting) a support group near you where you can compare notes and talk to others parents -get your children together etc. This way you will get to talk to those with mild results too -going from nonverbal to more babble and eye contact - etc. If you see any signs in the following archived post let me know. Rothweiler's son took the longest that I know of to see the surge -5 weeks, but one other posted it took longer. Most of us see it in a day to three weeks -or in a handful it doesn't appear to work no matter how long you give it. " From what most of us have seen and reported here -the changes on EFAs again will be typically first be seen from one day to three weeks (give or take) even though most of the PhD's say up to 3 months to notice the change. Within that time you will just like you reported hear spontaneous speech -the first word, " break through " more focus, eye contact and attempts etc. There probably was an increase in babbling or facial movements before that you may not have noticed. Again in my experience -in 3 to 5 months most of the nonverbal children are attempting 2 to 3 word sentences. Each word alone may be clear -but when put into the sentence -at first they may break down a bit again -however with a model they can typically get it right! Tanner's first sentence without a model? " Ah Of Oooh " (I love you!) You can hear Tanner and other apraxic children from our group at http://www.debtsmart.com/talk " Most of us actually did have nonverbal apraxic or PDD children prior to EFAs -even though some in this group did not have any diagnosis other than " delay in speech " . I can tell you what we have seen as a group, and you can also search the archives and web for more. Many of those posting here now other than a few are newer parents as I explain below... I remember when Tanner first started on Efalex, which is the formula most of us found to be the best before ProEFA was invented, that I posted to a list one week later that Tanner was going into corners and whispering sounds to himself. Just like you I asked if this is normal activity for an apraxic child because I thought it was kind of strange. I don't remember if anyone answered, however I do know that one week after that -so two weeks after starting the Efalex- is when Tanner said " lellow " for the first time. I posted that it was like Bambi when he learned to say " flower " and instead of saying flower - Tanner walked around looking for things to call " lellow " -he was just as excited as us to be talking!! What's most amazing about this is that prior to supplementation Tanner was in therapy 2 to 3 times a week one on one for half hour to 45 minute sessions for about 5 months and had learned in that time to blow bubbles, make more facial movements, say simple sounds like " ch " or " ooo " with lots of encouragement and animation -however he still was not able to take the " ch " and the " ooo " and put them together to say " choo " His only words essentially at 2 years 10 months prior to EFAs were " mmmm " and " ma " -and this was with lots of therapy. Just two weeks later was a world of difference. I don't know exactly why your child is moving her mouth in unusual positions, or groping -however to me any changes outside the norm when you start your child on the EFAs is a great sign that something is clicking and that the surge may be soon approaching. (Please let us know when you see the surge in speech in the next week or two!) Since I receive lots of calls about this -I wanted to list the most common changes in an apraxic or other speech disordered child on EFAs from what I've read and heard and seen. 1. Increase in babbling or attempts at sounds. 2. Increase in imitation. Changes also can be looked for in (what you see as positive or negative) sleep attention appetite focus behavior stools Next will come a breakthrough of something you were probably working on for a bit -so you will be excited but will think " Well -I don't want to get my hopes up we were working on that for awhile now - maybe it's just a coincidence " However after the second or third surge in a short period of time -and then another - you are pretty sure things are different and it's at this point the professionals and the rest of the family and your friends are noticing it too -maybe about two to three weeks now. OK -the next stage is pure elation and hope -you see the light and no longer feel as desperate and want to share this new information with everyone and anyone. As the months go by and your child continues to progress at a much more rapid rate -you may even start to doubt the original diagnosis -especially if you started EFA supplementation at two -and perhaps the SLP that diagnosed the apraxia who also was at first excited is starting to second guess if the original diagnosis was correct as well. Unless you have to stop the ProEFA (or other Essential Fatty Acid) and literally have the chance to see the regression of acquired speech and language skills, attempts, and changes in behavior like we did with Tanner (and/or have a chance to again witness the second surge when your child is put back on the EFAs) -that doubt will probably remain somewhere in your mind and in others around your child. So the " I told you that he would start talking when he was ready " comments should be expected of course. Up to this point is understandable to me -it's the point after this that is confusing to me, and perhaps not the best stage for our children and for raising awareness or having research done to find out what is happening to our children and why. Perhaps because we have truly hit a paradigm shift... As Dr. Agin states the EFAs actually appear to be in some ways " curing " the apraxic child -even those diagnosed with severe oral and verbal apraxia, hypotonia, sensory and behavioral issues. Especially those started at younger ages. The child on ProEFA or some other EFA formula's like it no longer fits the criteria of the classic definition of apraxia -and yet doesn't fit the classic perception of what a late talker is either... Some of the parents become more focused on other everyday activities with their child and start to drift away from the support sources (for those who ask why there appears to be trouble with support groups in the US and outside the US now a days) I found it amazing that at the New Jersey Speech Hearing Association Conference that a higher than average number of the parents that attended had children that did not respond to ProEFA. Basically only parents that were still desperate for help for their child, or new parents showed up. Problem with this attitude is that unless your child is really up to speed on all aspects of speech and language, the support sources that helped in the beginning will still benefit your child today. ProEFA alone is not the only answer and until we know how and why it works (or why in a handful of children it doesn't) we can't improve on it " ===== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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