Re: PROTEIN?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/03 2:24:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, je@...

writes:

> not having enough insulin while training is not a good thing because insulin

> is what

> escorts the amino's into the muscle tissue

Maybe if you get your protein from, say, beef? Wouldn't the insulin response

to essential amino acids be sufficient to escort the given amount of amino

acids? I personally don't think that everyone should have the much protein,

but some should, depending on metabolic type.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Wouldn't the insulin response

>to essential amino acids be sufficient to escort the given amount of amino

>acids? I personally don't think that everyone should have the much protein,

>but some should, depending on metabolic type.

There's unfortunately a lot of confusion about insulin. The grand high

pooh-bahs of low-fat eating like to point out that insulin is required for

building muscle and other functions, not just storing sugar as fat, but

they're ignoring two key factors: the amounts of insulin involved in those

different functions, and the fact that insulin's function depends on the

environment it's working in. When you shovel huge hits of sugar into your

bloodstream, insulin is going to be lowering your blood sugar and storing

fat, NOT primarily doing anything to build muscle. IOW, the insulin

response to meat is fundamentally different from the insulin response to sugar.

-

[Guest guest]

,

Ok... but I was saying that I didn't think carbs would be necessary because

the amino acids would secrete insulin... iow, I was speaking of insulin in a

positive not negative light in this instance.

That said, insulin also seems to regulate life span, so high insulin levels

are always bad, b/c the negative effects of insulin are more than just

storing fat. Still, I think we're in basic agreement anyway, as I think

we're unlikely to raise our insulin levels to high by eating meat.

When I said not everyone should eat that much protein I didn't mean insulin I

just meant some people need more or less protein than others and that there

isn't a one-size-fits all ratio. A lot of people need more carbs than

protein, not less.

Chris

In a message dated 2/21/03 4:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

> here's unfortunately a lot of confusion about insulin. The grand high

> pooh-bahs of low-fat eating like to point out that insulin is required for

> building muscle and other functions, not just storing sugar as fat, but

> they're ignoring two key factors: the amounts of insulin involved in those

> different functions, and the fact that insulin's function depends on the

> environment it's working in. When you shovel huge hits of sugar into your

> bloodstream, insulin is going to be lowering your blood sugar and storing

> fat, NOT primarily doing anything to build muscle. IOW, the insulin

> response to meat is fundamentally different from the insulin response to

> sugar

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/22/03 3:57:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

> ly, I'm highly skeptical of that idea. Unlike proteins and fats,

> carbs have never been proven to be essential. I think it's more likely

> that people who don't do as well with long-chain animal fats (perhaps

> Wolcott's " carb " type) actually would do better with shorter-chain

> saturated vegetable fats like coconut and palm oils.

I agree with that but I never said anyone should have less fat. I think 30%

should be a minimum for *everyone,* but I don't see reason for high

*protein*. Even the Inuit on a 90% animal diet still had a diet 75% fat, so

I doubt any cultures evolved on a high-protein diet. The Masai subsist on

pretty much all animal products, but mostly milk, which has almost twice as

many calories from fat as protein, and more carbs than protein. I tend to do

better with more protein myself, but I can do a low-protein meal with pretty

stable blood sugar if there's enough fat.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Still, I think we're in basic agreement anyway, as I think

>we're unlikely to raise our insulin levels to high by eating meat.

Oh, absolutely.

>A lot of people need more carbs than

>protein, not less.

ly, I'm highly skeptical of that idea. Unlike proteins and fats,

carbs have never been proven to be essential. I think it's more likely

that people who don't do as well with long-chain animal fats (perhaps

Wolcott's " carb " type) actually would do better with shorter-chain

saturated vegetable fats like coconut and palm oils.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/23/03 4:55:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

> Oh, I agree. I think 40% of calories from protein (Wolcott's

> recommendation for us " protein " types) is absurd for everybody, probably

> even body builders.

Actually, seems potentially disastrous, since they recommend protein types

not supplement with A because it supposedly blocks calcium utilization, and

they recommend, actually *emphasize* protein types have more protein than

fat, and A is needed for protein assimilation, seems a good way to get A

deficiency. Still, don't know whether Kris's suggestion (it was Kris,

right?) that they might mean percent of food rather than calories might be

accurate, in which case it changes the picture.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/23/03 8:26:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Wouldn't raw whole milk, cream, cheese, eggs and butter up the protein and

A?

Right... all foods that would lead to far more fat than Walcott recommends.

The protein sources you mention, eggs and whole milk, both have about TWICE

as many calories from fat than protein, while Walcott recommends more

*protein* than fat for protein types.

> Haven't got CLO so I have potato, sweet potato or butternut squash for A

> almost

> daily besides other food sources.

Well, I don't think it's a good idea to rely on those sources completely for

A, since healthy people convert 1/12-1/20 of carotenes to A and women on the

lower side relative to men, but I'm sure there's some. Organ meats are

recommended for protein types and liver will provide plenty of A... so I

don't think one will necessary run into A deficiency on the protein type

diet, but one *could*, depending on selection of foods.

>Some of the suggested meals put into

> fitday

> will tell percentages. On the calcium utilization, its determined more

> needed

> in protein types to potassium levels.

Right, and I believe this, and think it at least in part explains why I got

tooth decay so bad with a bad diet, because I need more calcium. The

metabolic typing books helped me clarify this. But I don't see any reason

for the suggestion that protein types should take synthetic D instead of CLO

to avoid vitamin A, which kind of contradicts the suggestion to eat liver

anyway.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>but I don't see reason for high

>*protein*. Even the Inuit on a 90% animal diet still had a diet 75% fat, so

>I doubt any cultures evolved on a high-protein diet.

Oh, I agree. I think 40% of calories from protein (Wolcott's

recommendation for us " protein " types) is absurd for everybody, probably

even body builders.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Still, don't know whether Kris's suggestion (it was Kris,

>right?) that they might mean percent of food rather than calories might be

>accurate, in which case it changes the picture.

No, he emphasizes that protein types get more _calories_ from protein than

from fat -- 40% versus 30% -- which is just plain ridiculous and dangerous

in the long term.

-

[Guest guest]

At 06:22 PM 2/23/03 -0500, you wrote:

>In a message dated 2/23/03 4:55:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>Idol@... writes:

>

>> Oh, I agree.  I think 40% of calories from protein (Wolcott's

>>  recommendation for us " protein " types) is absurd for everybody, probably

>>  even body builders.

>

>Actually, seems potentially disastrous, since they recommend protein types

>not supplement with A because it supposedly blocks calcium utilization, and

>they recommend, actually *emphasize* protein types have more protein than

>fat, and A is needed for protein assimilation, seems a good way to get A

>deficiency.  Still, don't know whether Kris's suggestion (it was Kris,

>right?) that they might mean percent of food rather than calories might be

>accurate, in which case it changes the picture.

>

>Chris

Wouldn't raw whole milk, cream, cheese, eggs and butter up the protein and A?

Haven't got CLO so I have potato, sweet potato or butternut squash for A

almost

daily besides other food sources. Some of the suggested meals put into fitday

will tell percentages. On the calcium utilization, its determined more needed

in protein types to potassium levels. I gave up salting my food and eating

salty foods 30 years ago when pregnant for the oldest daughter because of

water

retention. Over the last few weeks I've been using the French sea salt and

noticed puffiness so have stopped salting my food again. Was hoping to try

lacto fermenting with Celtic salt but don't want to cause a potassium-sodium

imbalance.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>Wouldn't raw whole milk, cream, cheese, eggs and butter up the protein and A?

>Haven't got CLO so I have potato, sweet potato or butternut squash for A

>almost

>daily besides other food sources. Some of the suggested meals put into fitday

>will tell percentages. On the calcium utilization, its determined more needed

>in protein types to potassium levels. I gave up salting my food and eating

>salty foods 30 years ago when pregnant for the oldest daughter because of

>water

>retention.

I've been keeping track of my own diet, using software, and I was surprised at

how DIFFICULT it is to go over 25% protein. Mind you I have steak or chicken or

eggs with most meals. Most cultures have between 15 and 30% protein, even

the ones with " all meat " diets. Body builders use protein shakes to get

higher, and there was one diet that used liquid aminos once (and a few people

died on it). But most people have an " off switch " for protein and just

won't eat too much.

60% fat, on the other hand, isn't difficult at all. Fat is usually pure fat,

no water, and doesn't take up much room on the plate. I find, left

to my own taste buds, I usually end up with about 50% fat, 20% protein,

and 30% carbs, which works fine for me physically although I

probably shouldn't show my doctor :-) I think tracking what

works FOR YOU is probably the best thing. I've been constantly

surprised at what actually works for me, vs. what people say

ought to work.

Calcium and Magnesium are one of those things that some

people don't utilize correctly -- I do take extras, which helps

immensely with migraines and some other problems. If you

have calcium absorption problems, lowering your protein

probably won't help much. Older women who eat lots of protein

AND take lots of calcium have the strongest bones. When

you aren't getting enough calcium though, more protein

can leach calcium from the bones. But to build bone, you

need protein too.

Heidi S

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>No, he emphasizes that protein types get more _calories_ from protein than

>from fat -- 40% versus 30%

Surely getting the majority of calories from protein rather than fat isn't even

possible?

I mean, I eat a lot of protein (by my standards) and even when I'm trying to cut

down the fat, that's still where the majority of my calories come from.

Dryad

--

http://www.puritycontrol.co.uk - XF rec's at The Grove, updated 2/1/03

[Guest guest]

Dryad-

>Surely getting the majority of calories from protein rather than fat isn't

>even

>possible?

It's easy if you use protein powders, and I suppose it's possible if you

exclusively eat very lean meats, but it would be very difficult.

>and even when I'm trying to cut

>down the fat, that's still where the majority of my calories come from.

Why would you try to cut down on fat?

-

[Guest guest]

At 07:05 PM 2/23/03 -0800, Heidi wrote:

>I've been keeping track of my own diet, using software, and I was

surprised at

>how DIFFICULT it is to go over 25% protein. Mind you I have steak or chicken

or

>eggs with most meals. Most cultures have between 15 and 30% protein, even

>the ones with " all meat " diets. Body builders use protein shakes to get

>higher, and there was one diet that used liquid aminos once (and a few people

>died on it). But most people have an " off switch " for protein and just

>won't eat too much.

If I have steak, roast beef or mussels I tend to want to eat more protein.

Have

been reading Stop Your Cravings by Workman M.S. R.D. Its about

Ayurvedic body types mostly with these adapted to our diet somewhat. Some good

info on good macronutrient sources. Found why I love squash etc. She states in

there that fat is the only macronutrient that doesn't affect insulin levels.

With hypoglycemia being my major problem before increasing my fat and protein

I'd rather go with the higher fat to protein. Something to think about too in

relation to the recent article that found insulin levels determined an

earthworm's life length.

>

>60% fat, on the other hand, isn't difficult at all. Fat is usually pure fat,

>no water, and doesn't take up much room on the plate. I find, left

>to my own taste buds, I usually end up with about 50% fat, 20% protein,

>and 30% carbs, which works fine for me physically although I

>probably shouldn't show my doctor :-) I think tracking what

>works FOR YOU is probably the best thing. I've been constantly

>surprised at what actually works for me, vs. what people say

>ought to work.

Probably close to your %s. Does work as far as being satiated for 3-4 hours.

How much raw is important too.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

wondered:

>Why would you try to cut down on fat?

Because that's what my body wants. Took me months to figure it out, but I think

that when I eat too much fat, my body burns what I've eaten compared to what I'm

carrying physically. Unfortunately, the rules seem to change every day. Hence

I'm in month 2 of my latest stall.

I've said many times - for whatever reason, I am way on the outside of the lc

bell curve, when by all rights I should be smack dab in the middle of it. I'm

the person lc'ing was supposed to help the most! Maybe it's down to that

metabolic problem I don't have...or perhaps I was too 'normal', healthwise, for

the difference to be all that noticeable

Dryad

'normal', as in no long term illnesses (apart from migraines and rosacea) like

diabetes, syndrome X, CFS, etc

--

http://www.puritycontrol.co.uk - XF rec's at The Grove, updated 2/1/03

[Guest guest]

Hi Marko,

The only thing that would concern me is I don't know what seasonings they

use. A lot of the products they use might contain bad things like MSG.

But then, there probably isn't too much of it either. See if you get a

negative reaction to it.

Breading is a definite no-no.

Zack

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, eur0hrvat wrote:

> Today I had maybe half a roasted chicken.. Lots of fats. I ate the

> skin.. Is the skin bad to eat? especially if there is seasoning on

> there.. (lots of it being salt..)

>

> I have to confess its grocery store bought pre cooked chicken. You

> know those small ones Bee that you can get at Safeway/Sobeys. For the

> most part we eat wild salmon and a cow that we went halfers on with my

> sister and her husband. (hormone/steroid free/ fathers worker friend

> has a small farm)

>

> So I imagine it cannot be too bad once in a while to eat unorganic

> meats. We also buy a whole lamb from the farmer. So we are healthy..

>

> What you think about eating all that chicken though? I think I am

> going to have a can of tuna as well. Is that too much store bought

> meat for one day? Just 2 meals.. Lots of veggies with them though..

> and olive oil. Usually butter as well.

>

> Thanks

>

> Marko

>

kk

[Guest guest]

>

> Today I had maybe half a roasted chicken.. Lots of fats. I ate

the skin.. Is the skin bad to eat? especially if there is

seasoning on there.. (lots of it being salt..) I have to confess

its grocery store bought pre cooked chicken. You know those small

ones Bee that you can get at Safeway/Sobeys. For the most part we

eat wild salmon and a cow that we went halfers on with my sister and

her husband. (hormone/steroid free/ fathers worker friend has a

small farm)

>

> So I imagine it cannot be too bad once in a while to eat unorganic

> meats. We also buy a whole lamb from the farmer. So we are

healthy..

>

> What you think about eating all that chicken though? I think I

am going to have a can of tuna as well. Is that too much store

bought meat for one day? Just 2 meals.. Lots of veggies with them

though.. and olive oil. Usually butter as well.

==>Marko, with the Safeway pre-cooked chicken you'd be best not to

eat the skin, because like Zack said they add MSG and other natural

flavorings that are MSG-like to them, bad oils and fats, etc. but

with good chickens it is better to eat the skin because you do want

the fats. Chicken is low in fat so always add lots when you eat

them.

==>We do not want to obsess about foods, even though it is very easy

to do on this diet and with all of the nasty processed foods. Once

in a while eating two store bought meats may be necessary. I

believe it is better to eat enough food than not to eat of course,

but do pick the best of the processed foods. I don't believe your

choices were that bad Marko.

Cheers, Bee

[Guest guest]

> Just remember that if you eat more protein than your body needs, 50%

of the excess will be converted to glucose, and that glucose will feed

candida. Focus on those great fats though. You'll feel so much

better for it.

==>That isn't correct my dear. Excess protein " can " be used by the

body to fulfill glucose requirements for blood sugar, etc. purposes,

IF required. If you don't eat any carbs this is a good way to get

glucose too, but it is more expensive. Blood sugar and glucose within

the body itself does not feed candida.

Luv, Bee

[Guest guest]

Hey all thank you for your replies!!!

was away for a few days. Just caught up on some reading.

Thanks again

Marko